This weekend I installed an ATS kit for the Allison. After finishing the install, the Allison will not go in any forward gear, but will go into reverse.


It seemed like thing went really well overall. There were only three things that were unexpected.

1.) It was much harder than expected to get the C3 snap ring back in.
2.) The new solenoid pushed the shallow pan pickup too close to the pan, and the pan would not seat properly. We had to remove the front two dimples on the pickup to get the pan to seat. This may be limiting the Allison’s ability to get fluid from the pan at a quick enough rate. If this was it, all I would need to do is buy the deep pan, but that a lot of money for a “What If”.
3.) The factory internal harness has a green wire that just loops from one pin on the 20-pin connector back to another pin on the same connector. The ATS harness had a green wire that just ended, and did not loop back. Perhaps this wire got pulled out during shipment, and was not intended to just end.

I will be calling ATS on Monday to see if they have any ideas. Any opinions on what could cause no forward gear to work? There are no check engine lights.
<P

I believe C3 is the one with coiled ring that goes on before the snap ring. It's very important not to let the coil overlap itself.


Your codes indicate and electrical problem. Do you get any gears with the plug disconnected? You should have 3rd and reverse.Edited by: GMCSID

I might have edited my post as you were replying. I edited it because I think the code only appeared when I switched fron the Co-pilot connector back to the stock connector. I thought the key was out of the ignition, but it was still in the accessory position, and after I reset the codes, they did not come back.


Do you think it might be #3 listed above? I tried your test, and yes, I get D3 and R with the TCM disconnected, and still no forward gears with it conected. I drove around the block, and short of it not shifting, it was a very smooth ride with not internal noises in the Allison. We followed the C3 install instructions to the letter, and had many pictures to follow.

<TABLE width="100%" border=1><A name=tab1-1387625></A>
<H4>Here is the pinnout for the trans connector. I don't see where a green wire loops back to the connector. The 2 green wires here need to be seperate. Maybe you can compare this to yours.</H4>
<H4>Automatic Transmission Inline Harness - C175 (Transmission Side)</H4><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=center align=middle colSpan=4>
http://service.gm.com/engif/000/000/808/808696.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=808696)
</TH></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=center align=middle colSpan=2>


Connector Part Information</TH>
<TH vAlign=center align=left colSpan=2>
<UL ="BULLET">
<LI>12160782
<LI>20-Way M Micro-Pack 100 Series (GRY) </LI>[/list]</TH></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=bottom align=middle>


Pin</TH>
<TH vAlign=bottom align=middle>


Wire Color</TH>
<TH vAlign=bottom align=middle>


Circuit No.</TH>
<TH vAlign=bottom align=middle>


Function</TH></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


A</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


DK GRN </TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


1222</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=left>


Shift Solenoid C Valve Control</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


B</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


YEL/BLK</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


1223</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=left>


Shift Solenoid D Valve Control</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


C</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


PNK</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


839</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=left>


12 Volt Reference</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


D</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


LT GRN</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


1224</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=left>


Fluid Pressure Switch Signal C</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


E</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


RED</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


1226</TD>
<TD vAlign=center>


Fluid Pressure Switch Signal E</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


F</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


DK BLU</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


1225</TD>
<TD vAlign=center>


Fluid Pressure Switch Signal D</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


G</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


YEL</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


1227</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=left>


TFT Sensor Signal </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


H</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


BLK</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


407</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=left>


Low Reference</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


J</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


BRN</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


418</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=left>


TCC PWM Solenoid Valve Control</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


K</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


TAN</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


901</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=left>


Fluid Pressure Switch Reverse Signal</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


L</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


RED/BLK</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


1228</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=left>


PPC Solenoid A Valve High Control</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


M</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


LT BLU</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle>


1229</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=left>


PPC Solenoid A Valve Low Contro

U and V on my facotry harness are connected together. It is an 04 harness.

I believe C3 is the one with coiled ring that goes on before the snap ring. It's very important not to let the coil overlap itself.





GMCSID, since Amric is busy chasing the other possible issues, I'll respond to this one: It's the C2 which has that coiled ring, and that was all good. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

So what do you think it means when it runs good in both D3 and reverse when the TCM is disconnected? Perhaps I fried the TCM when reconecting the battery. It did spark a couple of times as I was trying to get the battery threads started.


If I could get my hands on a tech II, perhaps I could lock it in each gear one at a time and see how it behaves. I looked up what clutches are applied in D3 and Reverse, and in both cases the C3 was applied. Perhaps the C3 will not disengage because on the snap ring pressure.

when the tcm is disconnected, your eliminating all electrical input to the trans, and since 3rd and reverse can be achieved on hydaulics alone, those are the defaults. First thing I would do is make sure that the input and the turbine speed sensors are plugged in. Easily missed on the reinstall, I have done it myself. After that, unplug the aux harness for the co-pilot and see if problem is still there. If it goes away, you can isolate it to the harness. I have had some trouble with them. Make sure all the wires are properly seated in the co-pilot connector and the transmission connector. Make sure the connector seats square also.


For the record, the spiral ring is used on the C1 back plate and is the first ring installed on the C4. The C3 is just a snap ring. Where are you squirt holes at on the C3 piston? Snap ring opening? Yours being an 04 adds a solonoid to the mix. I am concerned that the pan doesnt fit properly and you had to 'trim' things to make it fit.

I have disconnected the Co-pilot external harness and reconected the factory harness and the results are the same. Of course the Internal harness is still the ATS one, but tommorow, if I'm not steered in a new direction, I will pull the pan, and put the factory internall harness back in and inspect the ATS internal harness.


Both speed sensors are connected.


After the C3 snap ring is in, should there 1/8" clearance in the clutch pack? The snap ring was very hard to install, and there is probably 0 clearance.

Almost forgot,


The air bleed behind the C3 was set to exactly 12 o-clock

Snap ring opening was at around 1 oclock at one of the 3 large openings.

good, you got the air bleed and snap ring in the right spots, nothing to do with your problem though, just thought I would askhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


I think your safe leaving the internal harness in place, just disconnect the "T" harness at the external connector.


You should have about that much clearance in the C3, perhaps a bit less. Those springs are buggers pushing backup at ya when your trying to put the snap ring on. With a buds help, use a hammer handle to push down the backing plate and feed the ring in. I am sure you found a way to do it also. There is a tool, but no good when the bottom half is togather. I would be curious as to seeing if that external "T" harness is the problem.... Run out there and unplug it, just plug in the oem connector and cycle the key and see what happens...

I've already done that. 3 posts up. I disconnected the T connector and reconnected the factory harness. It behaved exactly the same. No forward gears, only reverse. No check engine light. The I reconnected the T connector and tried it both t=with the co-pilot turned on and turned off. All 3 setups yield the same results. Never any check engine light until I completly disconnect the TCM, and then it runs great in D3. I drove it around for 10 minutes up to 45mph, and it was smooth as silk. Reverse work equally well.


I am despirate here. This is my sole transportation, and I running out of ideas.

Are there any TCM codes that do not set a check engine light?

sorry, missed that. It should kick the light and set a P0700, thats the only one you can get with your Quad. The trans codes wont show up with out a tech-2 or similer. You've got me stumped here.......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Did you check fuses? Maybe there is something wrong with the ats the blew a fuse and thats why it doesn't work when you go back to stock.

I did look for a TCM specific fuse under the hood, but did not see one labled TCM. Is it labled something else? I guess I could check all of them but let me know if you know the exact one.

You should have about that much clearance in the C3, perhaps a bit less. Those springs are buggers pushing backup at ya when your trying to put the snap ring on. With a buds help, use a hammer handle to push down the backing plate and feed the ring in. I am sure you found a way to do it also. There is a tool, but no good when the bottom half is togather.


Eric, expanding on this, since I was there for this part of it: We had two guys pushing down w/ hammers, while one person basically forced the C3 snap ring in. IT WAS TIGHT!!! Took a while to do, and we were all breathing heavy when done. I know Paul is praying this isn't it (cuz it means pulling the tranny again), but how tight should that C3 ring be? If it's *that* tight, could it cause the problem?

You could test them all with a test light.

For the record, the spiral ring is used on the C1 back plate and is the first ring installed on the C4. The C3 is just a snap ring.


That's right, Eric. I knew it was either the C3 or C4, I couldn't remember off the top of my head.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif





Look at the IGN 0 in the I/P fuse block and PCM B in the underhood fuse block.Edited by: GMCSID

Joe, no. C3 clutch pack is fine. I can almost assure you of that.


Your problem is an electrical gremlin.


Sid, so any ways, some dummy was putting an Ally togather in my stall Sat and put it in and then pulled it out and then fixed his problem then he is gonna put it in again Monday morn... what a dummyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif I guess those bearings really do have to be in the right spothttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif

Check the PCM B fuse 20 amp, and the IGN 0 fuse 10amps





Edit I see sid beat me too it http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gifEdited by: Max Power

Sid, so any ways, some dummy was putting an Ally togather in my stall Sat and put it in and then pulled it out and then fixed his problem then he is gonna put it in again Monday morn... what a dummyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif I guess those bearings really do have to be in the right spothttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif


And with the blue stripes the correct way. That really sucks for him. At least you didn't have to fix it for him.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif

Both listed fuses were good, and while I was under the hood, I checked all the rest of the fuses ad they were all good.

Actually, the blue stripes were facin the right way, its the size that wasnt right... Er, at least thats what I thinkhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Joe, no. C3 clutch pack is fine. I can almost assure you of that.


Your problem is an electrical gremlin.


Sid, so any ways, some dummy was putting an Ally togather in my stall Sat and put it in and then pulled it out and then fixed his problem then he is gonna put it in again Monday morn... what a dummyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif I guess those bearings really do have to be in the right spothttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif





I sure hope your right about the C3s. If it is electrical, it is most likely the internal harness. At this point, the internal harness is the only electrical that is not OEM. I will probably pull the pan tommorow and put back in the OEM harness. Of course I have no way to remove the ATS solinoid. I will also call ATS and ask them to send me a new harness.

My bet is the harness, it just didn't look right with that wire hangin there. I'll cross my fingers for ya, I'm confident we did it right.

I saw you were having trouble so I went to my shop picked up my old harness out of my 03 and snapped a couple of pictures. Is yours the same as this??? Or is the 04 different?


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/A1A_harness2.JPG


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/BCF_harness1.JPGEdited by: Trippin

Regarding the top picture, see the looped green wire, on the ATS harness it was hanging, did not loop. Otherwise the rest looks the same with the addition on one more plug for the 04's.

Here is a picture of my factory wiring harness


http://www.ntinnovations.com/duramax/images/medium/FactoryHarness.jpg


Notice the looped green wire. On the Ats harness, a single green wire was there that did not loop back to the 20-pin conector. I am wondering if it pulled out in shippment. But the list of what each wire does above says both pins are unused.

If it did pull out, I could loop it on the outside of the Allison just as easily as the inside, and I would not have to drop the pan.

I would give it a try if I were you. Sure seems like it could be the problem.

Here is a picture of my ATS harness.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/ATS_harness1.JPG

Looks like the green wire is looped. This makes me feel a little better that perhaps this one wire would be enough to make the TCM not work. I sure hope so. I will be talking with ATS today, and I will ask them to send me a new harness. Edited by: Amric

I'd like to know what the purpose of that loop is. I can't find it in any diagrams. It just says not used.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

New Information:


I talked to Clint today, and he says that the internal harness uses the U pin and leaves the V pin loose, so the harness is not suspect. He suspects the C3 clutches. He asked me to see if there was resistance when reving the motor in drive. I tried many more things and I was hoping they might help people to determine what my issue might be. Here they are.


1.) Before we bolted the torque convertor to the motor, you could spin it easily so there was no binding on the input shaft.


2.) Today, I put the rear diff in the air, and the Allison in neutral, and I could turn the rear driveshaft with little or no effort.


3.) I disconnected the TCM, and could freely rev the motor in both park and neutral with no resistance.


4.) I connected the OEM external harness to the ATS internal harness, and could not freely rev the motor in any gear including park.


I hope someone can read these clues and give me a direction to look. I am waiting for Clint to call me back to see what his thoughts are. My guess is still the internal harness, because something is adding line pressure where it shouldn't be when the TCM is conected.Edited by: Amric

What are the symptoms of an overfilled Tranny? The instructions said 15qts, but it took 18 to get the right reading on the dip stick. The trans was warm when I checked.

Symptoms of an over filled tranny will be weeping at the weep hole and blowing out the vent when transmission is warm to hot ... With a dry TC mine took the better of a 5 gallon bucket of fluid ....


Interesting ATS thinks it's C3 when you have reverse .... What alterations did you make to C1 ?? I would drain pan and confirm suction filter is seated properly as you mention a problem above ...


Drain onto clean bucket install standard pan and suction filter ....


What type of aftermarket pan were you trying that wouldn't seal ??





Mac Edited by: Mackin

17 single sided frictions in the C1. They think it is the C3 due to how hard it was for us to get the snap ring in. I would think if it was the C3, then neutral and park with the TCM disconnected would behave the same as neutral and park with the TCM connected. I'm thinking I either connected something wrong (highly unlikely) or the new harness or new solinoid are failing.

I checked the play in the C1 after installing them, and it was perfect.

Mackin it was the stock pan. The CoPilot has you cut a section of tubing and install a valve inline. This valve is an aluminum block, that is supposed to fit under the suction filter. Problem is it does not allow the body of the suction filter to sit in it's normal position, it hits it and caused the filter body to sit a little higher. The solid feet on the filter had to be ground flat (1/4") to allow the pan to be bolted. It wouldn't be a problem with the deep pan but it is on stock. I don't think it's an issue, we did not grind a hole through at any point. Once bolted, the pan may have cocked the filter in its hole, but I don't think so. Edited by: VFRRider

This valve is an aluminum block, that is supposed to fit under the suction filter. Problem is it does not allow the body of the suction filter to sit in it's normal position, it hits it and caused the filter body to sit a little higher. The solid feet on the filter had to be ground flat (1/4") to allow the pan to be bolted.





Under you say ?? Maybe I'm confused but I can't see that as the suction filter sits on the pan for support .... There is not much room for margain as if you sit a suction filter in the bottom of the pan "neck up" you would need a lot of grinding to get something "under" the filter .... How thick is this block ??


You guys are prolly doing everything correct just hard to "see" what is going on thru the type writer if you know what I mean ...


Mac

I would venture to say the C3 is being applied when the tranny is being plugged into the TCM. It sounds like C1,C3,C5 are applied, causing the bind. If you have reverse in Nuetral position, your C5 and C3 clutches are applied. Where did you put the NSBU switch? Does the mechanical detents correspond with the dash indicator?

Under you say ?? Maybe I'm confused but I can't see that as the suction filter sits on the pan for support .... There is not much room for margain as if you sit a suction filter in the bottom of the pan "neck up" you would need a lot of grinding to get something "under" the filter .... How thick is this block ??


You guys are prolly doing everything correct just hard to "see" what is going on thru the type writer if you know what I mean ...


Mac


Actually when I say under, it was looking at the trans when out, upside down. As it sits installed, it would be above it, in the void between the filter body and valvebody.Edited by: VFRRider

Just got off the phone with Clint. He is positive that it is a mechanical binding of the C3 clutches. He wants me to pull it back out and call him when I get to the C3. We are going to measure all the plates and frictions and see what is causing the binding. Here is the interesting part. He says I can pull the Allison off the motor while leaving the torque convertor bolted to the flexplate. He says he has done it many times and never had an issue. He says it only works with the Duramax/Allison due to it strength and the amount of clearance. If this works, I will not need to pull the Inner fender, starter, exhaust or torque convertor. This will save at least 4 hours. Once its open, I won't have to do the C1, C2 or valve body modifications. All in all, it won't be too bad, and no damage should be done to the clutches.Edited by: Amric

The explanation of the dfference with the TCM connected and not connected:


The TCM engages the C5 clutches to counter the clunk when going into gear. This added to the C3 being mechanically binded causes the truck to move backwards even in neutral. In drive the C1 applies, and fights with the C3 causing the truck to no longer go in reverse. Disconnecting the TCM, and the C5 disengages, and no more reverse even though the C3 is still engaged.

Under you say ?? Maybe I'm confused but I can't see that as the suction filter sits on the pan for support .... There is not much room for margain as if you sit a suction filter in the bottom of the pan "neck up" you would need a lot of grinding to get something "under" the filter .... How thick is this block ??


You guys are prolly doing everything correct just hard to "see" what is going on thru the type writer if you know what I mean ...


Mac


Actually when I say under, it was looking at the trans when out, upside down. As it sits installed, it would be above it, in the void between the filter body and valvebody.





Ah I see now ....


Hey good luck .....


Mac

Amric,


I am sorry the install did not go as smoothly as you had planned. I know you read the instructions and prepared properly. When you get the tranny back out you will probally find a crumpled up beer can or pizza crust to be the culprit!Edited by: Bronco

Actually now that I know what is wrong, and now that I know what I have to do to get it right again, I'm actually looking forward to getting started.


Thanks everyone for all your help. There is some amazing knowledge on this forum. I learned more about the Allison in the past month than any other transmission in my whole life. Even though it didn't go perfectly, I'm still glad I did it myself and learned more about it.


And I could have never done it without VFRider's and Joe E's help.


I think I'm going to get started with the small stuff tommorow, so Saturday all I have left is the heavy stuff.Edited by: Amric

One thing to make sure of is that this kit will work properly with the '04 transmission. The transmission controls are completely different for the '04 model year. Might not be a problem but I would surely look into it.

I told them when I purchased the kit that it was for an 04. They said they had sold several kits for an 04. They even told me that there was a harness change after they started releasing the o4s, and I had to give them my build date to make sure they sent me the proper harness. The harness they send me did have the wiring for the new solenoid.


What are your thoughts about leaving the TC bolted to the flexplate?Edited by: Amric

What are your thoughts about leaving the TC bolted to the flexplate?


I think it's a bad idea. In school they made a big deal about removing and installing the converter with the trans facing up. It could damage the sealing rings if not done that way. Besides that I don't know how you are going to be able to line it up. You already know how hard it was to get it back in with the trans out.

Misaligned the slighest will cause binding and possible damage also ... As long as ATS says no matter what happens we'll warranty,go for it .... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


Not worth the trouble ..... You should be able to do converter access and removal in less then 4 HRS with help ....


Geerhead and I had my tranny out in 57 mins ,start to finish on the ground ....


You have a lift and jack I hope ,if your doing it on your back ,forgetaboutit ....


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

I'm doing it on my back. And so far, I'm doing it alone. It's gonna suck.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


As far as leaving the TC on the flexplate. I do worry about the seals, but if I take it off, I worry about reusing the TC bolts. I do not think I could get a new set on time. Edited by: Amric

I'm doing it on my back. And so far, I'm doing it alone. It's gonna suck.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


As far as leaving the TC on the flexplate. I do worry about the seals, but if I take it off, I worry about reusing the TC bolts. I do not think I could get a new set on time.





ATS uses stock bolts ??


Don't worry bout reusing bolts put a LIL lock tight on them no matter if concerned ....


Doing it on your back ,I couldn't imagine doing it that way .... Yet doing it alone,nearly impossible with out lift and T-jack of sorts ...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif


I'd help ya if I were closer ....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Great News!

It turns out the only thing we did wrong when installing the ATS kit was to follow the directions. The instructions specifically stated that we were to reuse the lowest steel in the C3 clutch pack. It stated to turn it over if it was burned on the up side. The instructions went on to say to install the supplied frictions and steels starting with a friction and then steel, etc. In reality, the stock lowest steel was not supposed to be reused, as an extra steel was supplied in the kit. The extra steel was enough to take up all the clearance, and cause the C3 to remain always applied. After taking it apart and noticing that the clutch pack ended with a steel, but the factory pack ended with a friction, it was obvious what had happened. I’ve now got the Allison back together, and I will be putting it back in the truck tomorrow. Thanks for everyone’s help.

Good work http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif I am going to be tackleing mine myself too I think. I hope to only pull mine once though. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

Amric,


Did you mis-read the instructions or were they mis-printed? I could not gather that from your last post.

They were mis-printed, and will be revised. The kit is being continuously improved, but in this case, the instructions were just lagging behind. If I would have been more familiar with the internals of the Allison, I probably would have noticed right away that there was an extra steel.Edited by: Amric