has anybody started from scratch and built thier own tunes:rolleyes: , and not just down loaded a manufactured tune and BASTARDIZED it, :eek: and now they call it thier own :( , I mean taken thier ecm and built on thier parameters,;) then, and ,then only, can they say they have made a tune :confused: , seems that there are alot of sudden tuner gurus out there:eek: that claim to have conquerd the tuning market in 1 month when it has taken profesional tuner companies years to do , I am not bashing EFI in any way , I think it is a great step in the right direction ; however, I think that it is going to create a false market for the real tuners. I do not have a problem with self made tunes that have been carfully planed and tested, being traded online if the person desires ,(I know if I worked on something and found it to work better than the curent market has to offer I would want to be rewarded for it , obviously with $$$) I do think that there is a lot of Infringing going on (it is a grey area) you down load a tune change a parameter and it is now your custome tune ?:( , what about the original manufacture of that tune that is being shared by many, they are not getting thier royalties every time it is traded or rewritten !!:confused: With that being said , I do think in the right hands with some good minds we have here some people will realy step it up and force the big manufactures to put out better tunes for more competitive price(cheaper) or be a thing of the way side. just my .02 worth

Yes there are lots of people (if not all of us) writing our own tunes.

from start to finish ? not to question any ones ability , but,.. WHAT STOPED YOU FROM DOING IT FOR A JOB IF IT IS THAT EASY, (BESIDES THE EXPENSIVE SOFTWARE), again this is not a atack on any body I am just curious as to how everybody became a Jr. Steve Cole or ppe or any other manufacture , if I could have done this I think I would have approched a big player with this info, to make a proffit

Writing your own tunes is the only way to go. :ro)

I never really liked any of the handhelds/stacks anyway.

That's why I sold them all and bought an Extreme.:D

Don't know if I'll ever get to Extreme levels, but I do know that in a very short time a few of us have already exceeded handheld levels with much better drive ability.

Half the fun is in discovery. The other half is in knowing you did it yourself and didn't plagiarize anybody else's work to get there. :ro)

from start to finish ? not to question any ones ability , but,.. WHAT STOPED YOU FROM DOING IT FOR A JOB IF IT IS THAT EASY, (BESIDES THE EXPENSIVE SOFTWARE), again this is not a atack on any body I am just curious as to how everybody became a Jr. Steve Cole or ppe or any other manufacture , if I could have done this I think I would have approched a big player with this info, to make a proffit

What stopped us? Not having the tools................;) (EFILive)

It's not that hard when all the different tables are labled and laid out for you in the software.

Trial and error changing tables until things start to kinda make sense....Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

A Jr. Steve Cole? Long way to go before my tunes feel like his.

I agree, and as we spoke I will probably order the EFI live from you, but , I have 0 knowledge of the fuel curves and boost levels as to when to combine the two and mix timing into it and injection rates and when , it is very wierd to a person who is not a engineer, ( ask me how to mix a drink and I can give ya a 500hp drink in 10 sec, ask me for a 500 hp tune and Im a deer in headlights) I agree alot of handhelds have big faults that I could not live with , thats why I junked alot of them . I am in for some personal tuning but will need some help along the way. I like the data loging availability and the future of the posible tcm being cracked .We will talk after the Fat man has all the kids stuff CAP




Writing your own tunes is the only way to go. :ro)

I never really liked any of the handhelds/stacks anyway.

That's why I sold them all and bought an Extreme.:D

Don't know if I'll ever get to Extreme levels, but I do know that in a very short time a few of us have already exceeded handheld levels with much better drive ability.

Half the fun is in discovery. The other half is in knowing you did it yourself and didn't plagiarize anybody else's work to get there. :ro)

WHAT STOPED YOU FROM DOING IT FOR A JOB IF IT IS THAT EASY, (BESIDES THE EXPENSIVE SOFTWARE)

Before EFILive, Duramax tuners either had to write their own software to use in house (which several did) or edit the tables in hex (See screen shot).

So given you could not purchase any software with nice graphs and tables you would have been dealing with hex (the screen shot is what a table looks like in hex), not pretty.

So, think of the 'expensive software' as a program that turns the hex numbers into pretty pictures :)

Cheers,
Ross

It seems as though if you right a tune from "scratch" you are still starting with a stock baseline, written by someone. If I understand correctly, everyone is starting with at least a stock baseline to work with, so nobody is actually starting from scratch. The tuners like Predator have been doing this for a while. Now people are just going to do it to them.

For us guys playing with the Demo version do any of you "pros" :D want to share what tables you are modifing??

For the comments on people modifiying current tunes and then claiming them as their own. I have heard more than once that people are worried about this and think the tuner market will be pretty seriously hurt.

Heres my take on it..... yes, some of the older (already produced stuff) will be able to be copied and modified.

BUT

I would think that newer versions of things coming out will be protected/locked like the TTS stuff is. Why wouldn't the tuner companies do that? That then would eliminate (or make it more trouble than its worth) people copying tunes from companies like PPE, Quad., etc.

I think this EFILive is the bomb......... Tune away folks, I'll have one some day and WILL want some help figuring out some of the basic principles of parameter tuning when that time comes.


Smoke Show
Mitch

Remember this is in any way a jab at EFI , I will be getting it my self as I stated , ( soon as the fat man stuff is taken care of) I was just curious as to where people start , and I hope these people will help me when I get started.

Are the PPE tunes copy protected?

The way I see this, as long as no one is copying from anything other then the original stock tuning, why should we worry if Quadzilla, PPE, Edge, TTS or any of the other take a hit? Will these mentioned companies care if something happens to EFIlive should something better come along? I don't think so.

I want the best product for the lowest price, if you can't do that, and another compay can, then you lose, and I buy from the company that can do it.

Right now it looks like Flashscan (EFIlive) is the company to beat! Competition will either make the other companies get better, or they will go home with the tails between there legs.

Are we too treat companies like we treat our kids these days? There are no losers, and everyone gets a trohpy at the end of the day:eek:

:exactly:

I agree that EFILive is top dog right now as far as personal tuners. Market competition is what brings us all better goods. Other companys have to be watching how this developes and come up with one of there own. I'll bet many of the companies already metioned have the ability already. Just a matter of gong into production.

I'll bet many of the companies already metioned have the ability already. Just a matter of gong into production.

You snooze you lose, I guess.

I am a HUGE fan of how FlashScan is always on here, ready to answer any and all questions we have. Customer Service + a solid, effective product + a VERY reasonable price = EFILive for tEh wiN :thankyou2

Customer Service + a solid, effective product + a VERY reasonable price = EFILive for tEh wiN :thankyou2

I agree, but you forgot to metion First To Introduce!!!:cool2:

As others have said we haven't done this because we didn't have the tools. You've got to be able to get the code from the ECM, you've got to be able to read the code and figure it out (look at, understand, and edit hex code), and than you've got to be able to get it back to the ECM. That's all before you can start figuring out WHAT to change to make a good tune.

That's a good amount of time, money, hardware, and knowledge. EFI has eliminated our need for any of it. Now all we have to do is concentrate on tuning. We've got everything there that we need to see. I doubt very few of us know a lot about tuning but in time we will. How do you think the tuners figured things out? Same way we are going to.

You'd be surprised how little is changed in the tunes we are using today on our LLY's. Getting a perfect tune that runs like the Extreme is going to take a lot of time. We have the tools now though so it's not out of our reach.

So, think of the 'expensive software' as a program that turns the hex numbers into pretty pictures :)

Cheers,
Ross

Everybody loves pretty pictures! :cool2:

Heck, I just barely got stacked...Do you guys love your wifes:joke: mebby thats what happens when your dog sits and doesn't point any longer :lol:

Well, for the record, (and I apologize in advance if this is out of line)

I paid for these tunes by buying the product in the first place and now have the opportunity to "backup" these tunes so that if anything happens to my hardware (programmers), I am not out all that money.

I have completely "backed up" all my programmer’s tunes on my laptop. Does this make me a bad person???

I may or may not modify these tunes slightly to better suit my own vehicle. Does this make me a bad person???

I may or may not use these tunes as a reference for tunes that I may decide to write on my own. Does this make me a bad person???

I will not be selling the tunes, so I not making money off someone else’s work.

I’m not sharing these tunes with anyone else, but may share tunes that I make that may or may not be referenced from my programmers. Does this make me a bad person???

This whole deal sounds so much like the music sharing issues going on in today’s world it’s scary.

Someone may want to notify SEMA (closest thing to the RIAA in our industry) so they can start cracking down on people.

IMO... NO to all of your questions.

Someone may want to notify SEMA (closest thing to the RIAA in our industry) so they can start cracking down on people.

Well, then they would need to go all they way back to the mid 90's, PC tuners and handhelds have been around for a long time in the gas market, since flash PCM's come out (say 1996 LT1 V8), just not for Diesel's.

Cheers,
Ross

Well, then they would need to go all they way back to the mid 90's, PC tuners and handhelds have been around for a long time in the gas market, since flash PCM's come out (say 1996 LT1 V8), just not for Diesel's.

Cheers,
Ross
Pretty much my thoughts exactly! And these tuners didn't do away with Hypertech, and Super Chip.

Can't play solitare or watch a movie or browse the DP with a Tech 2, but you can with a laptop and now that same laptop can do much of what the Tech 2 can do and a whole lot cheaper.

Seems like a no brainer to me. :D

I do feel guilty though. I backed up some data to my flash drive. Where do I turn myself in? ):h

Well I can give you guys my take on it. I'm one of the tuners that spend the time and money to figure things out and make them work. So if you copy my work then you have stolen my work and that's what copyright protection is all about. If you buy EFILive and start with your own stock truck tune and make a tune from scratch then by all means it's yours to do with as you wish, but if on the other hand you look at what I or others have done then make the same changes with a few minor changes then you are in violation of copyright law. We at TTS have locked our code just for that reason and anyone who tries to or who does break the locks is in violation of copyright law and should be charged. Let's look at it the same as going into your house by break the door locks and taking your TV and stereo, would you not call that stealing? Takeing someone elses work that you do not own is doing the same thing.

With a X number of tables aren't all the tunes yours and everyone elses all going to be roughly the same tune at a given HP level?

GM spent a significant higher amount of money and time devoloping the tune that we all stole and modified. So in theory, we just broke into GM's house and stole a 80" Plasma big screen. No one here is starting from scratch, so we are all guilty.

Diesel Tech I understand what you are saying and agree 100%. You have developed a great tune that is well respected and have every right to protect it.

I have been playing with EFILive for days straight and love it. If you have not purchased it yet, do so (I got mine from Trippin), you will not be sorry.:ro)

Aaron

Well I can give you guys my take on it. I'm one of the tuners that spend the time and money to figure things out and make them work. So if you copy my work then you have stolen my work and that's what copyright protection is all about. If you buy EFILive and start with your own stock truck tune and make a tune from scratch then by all means it's yours to do with as you wish, but if on the other hand you look at what I or others have done then make the same changes with a few minor changes then you are in violation of copyright law. We at TTS have locked our code just for that reason and anyone who tries to or who does break the locks is in violation of copyright law and should be charged. Let's look at it the same as going into your house by break the door locks and taking your TV and stereo, would you not call that stealing? Takeing someone elses work that you do not own is doing the same thing.


So when a person PAYS you $XXXX they do NOT own that ECM with which you have modified and free to do with it what ever they so desire? Install in their truck, use for target practice, cup holder, whatever. It was THEIR money spent for YOUR services. It is now THEIRS.

I think it is great that people will be able to create their own stuff EVEN if they are modifying something that they PAID for. Now, if they go around GIVING away OR even selling PPE Hot ET +2 or whatever else, then I can see where aftermarket tuner companies could get upset and possibly take some action.

I can't see how there is anything wrong with modifying ANY tune as long as its for your own benefit.

I do understand the aftermarket tuner's frustrations with this as it WILL be abused.

Thats my take on it.


Smoke Show
Mitch

has anybody started from scratch and built thier own tunes:rolleyes: , and not just down loaded a manufactured tune and BASTARDIZED it, :eek: and now they call it thier own :( , I mean taken thier ecm and built on thier parameters,;) then, and ,then only, can they say they have made a tune :confused: , seems that there are alot of sudden tuner gurus out there:eek: that claim to have conquerd the tuning market in 1 month when it has taken profesional tuner companies years to do , I am not bashing EFI in any way , I think it is a great step in the right direction ; however, I think that it is going to create a false market for the real tuners. I do not have a problem with self made tunes that have been carfully planed and tested, being traded online if the person desires ,(I know if I worked on something and found it to work better than the curent market has to offer I would want to be rewarded for it , obviously with $$$) I do think that there is a lot of Infringing going on (it is a grey area) you down load a tune change a parameter and it is now your custome tune ?:( , what about the original manufacture of that tune that is being shared by many, they are not getting thier royalties every time it is traded or rewritten !!:confused: With that being said , I do think in the right hands with some good minds we have here some people will realy step it up and force the big manufactures to put out better tunes for more competitive price(cheaper) or be a thing of the way side. just my .02 worth

I can see it now........ Tune Pirates ! Lol...

Well I can give you guys my take on it. I'm one of the tuners that spend the time and money to figure things out and make them work. So if you copy my work then you have stolen my work and that's what copyright protection is all about. If you buy EFILive and start with your own stock truck tune and make a tune from scratch then by all means it's yours to do with as you wish, but if on the other hand you look at what I or others have done then make the same changes with a few minor changes then you are in violation of copyright law. We at TTS have locked our code just for that reason and anyone who tries to or who does break the locks is in violation of copyright law and should be charged. Let's look at it the same as going into your house by break the door locks and taking your TV and stereo, would you not call that stealing? Takeing someone elses work that you do not own is doing the same thing.

Absolutely, but I think some of the uproar was getting WAY too serious. I, for one, don't think that a little software is gonna make me a Steve Cole. I have way too much respect for you and your abilities to even THINK that.

I think people have to follow their conscience with what they do. Every piece of software everywhere gets improved upon. Mostly because people that are using it may have a different perspective or need and it drives the market to improve the existing product or to create a new one.

Using a product as a bench mark to develop a new one is how it is done. I see no harm in that. Piracy is another issue, but then you get into the area of who actually owns what and who can copy it and for what purpose. I'm not a lawyer, don't wanna be one.

I think the tuners deserve the respect for setting the standard to which all aspire and that means not copying their work, but using it as a gauge to judge the quality of ones own work.

Does that mean that I will feel guilty about backing up a program that I paid for? Absolutely not. I back up all my other software and I don't feel guilty about that, especially because a lot of it is downloaded instead of retail box, so there is no CD. Same thing here.

Will I take that back up and try to sell it commercially for profit? Absolutely not. That's when you get into the copyright issues. Plus I know its wrong.

Like I said, follow YOUR conscience.

If you paid for the tune then their is no reason why you should not be able to modify it to your likings as long as you dont sell it or give it to other people. If I pay X dollars for a tune that does things that I dont like and I have the software to possibly fix it then I am going to modify it or at least try because when I paid for it, it became my property to do as I please with it. However to take a tune and change a few tables and call it your on tune and sell it is wrong and not fair to the person who created it.

If you paid for the tune then their is no reason why you should not be able to modify it to your likings as long as you don't sell it or give it to other people. If I pay X dollars for a tune that does things that I don't like and I have the software to possibly fix it then I am going to modify it or at least try because when I paid for it, it became my property to do as I please with it. However to take a tune and change a few tables and call it your on tune and sell it is wrong and not fair to the person who created it.

You cannot copy tables from the downloaded tune and then create your own from it.......:eek: ........unfortunately that is the very thing Diesel Tech is talking about.

It would be the same as plagiarism. it is someone else's work that is being copied.

If you study the software and the tables you will find that it is very easy to make some minor changes and make some great power.

The first thing you need to do is to get familiar with all of the tables, you must understand that they are effected by Engine Temp, Intake Air Temp, Barometric Pressure, Manifold Absolute Pressure, Throttle Position, etc.

Once you understand what those tables do and why then any of the changes you make and the results you get will start to make sense.

But if you just go in and add a bunch of fuuel and timing and expect to make smooth power you will get exactly what the handheld market is offering.

Good Luck,

T:cool: NY

.
.

If you paid for the tune then their is no reason why you should not be able to modify it to your likings as long as you dont sell it or give it to other people. If I pay X dollars for a tune that does things that I dont like and I have the software to possibly fix it then I am going to modify it or at least try because when I paid for it, it became my property to do as I please with it. However to take a tune and change a few tables and call it your on tune and sell it is wrong and not fair to the person who created it.

I cannot answer for every tuner out there but most if not all have copyright protected there work. What you are purchasing is the right to use it, not ownership of it. If you were to make a backup copy just for yourself, no problem. Once you share that with anyone else you are in violation of copyright law. If you look at how the work was done then share that information with someone else you are in violation of copyright law. There is the fine line between legal and not legal. Like I said in my first post if you take the stock tune from your truck and use any tuning tool to modify it to your liking then its yours to do what you want, but if you download your stock file then download a TTS or any other tune to see what we've done, then make those same changes to the stock file you've just stolen the work which would be a copyright violation. Trading tunes that were based on someone else's copyrighted work is the same deal. If you look at most any programmer there will be a copyright protection notice either in the instruction booklet included with the programmer or in the on line instructions.

And if I'm not mistaken your Extreme waiver also includes an "End-User License Agreement", correct?

So you've got a contract right there, signed.

All I want is My Extreme and ability to lock 4th gear (for dynoing) without paying a boat load of $$$ for a tech2.

Gimme that and I'd be just happy as can be!

Let me direct this to the tuners (TTS, PPE, etc.)

How "morally correct" is to take a program file that you paid for, back it up, see what is done, take notes. Then take another tune, back it up, see what it does, take more notes of the good things you see it doing. THEN take a stock tune, apply some of the things you liked from multiple tunes created by others to create a combined effort to produce "YOUR" (as in the truck owner's) ideal, or perfected tune?

Is that morally ok? Basically taking the good aspects of a couple different tunes, combining them to work best for your exact application and use it, pass it around, etc.


Just wondering,

Smoke Show
Mitch

I cannot answer for every tuner out there but most if not all have copyright protected there work. What you are purchasing is the right to use it, not ownership of it. If you were to make a backup copy just for yourself, no problem. Once you share that with anyone else you are in violation of copyright law. If you look at how the work was done then share that information with someone else you are in violation of copyright law. There is the fine line between legal and not legal. Like I said in my first post if you take the stock tune from your truck and use any tuning tool to modify it to your liking then its yours to do what you want, but if you download your stock file then download a TTS or any other tune to see what we've done, then make those same changes to the stock file you've just stolen the work which would be a copyright violation. Trading tunes that were based on someone else's copyrighted work is the same deal. If you look at most any programmer there will be a copyright protection notice either in the instruction booklet included with the programmer or in the on line instructions.

That is what I mean. I could make a back up file. I could change some things to my likings (keep in mind I know it is still somebody else's work) and use it everyday not sharing and not selling. I dont see the big deal in modifying someone else's work(as long as you paid for it to begin with) to your likings and you yourself using it. No sharing and no selling.

I think the do-it-yourself tunner is going to open a real can of worms. I can see something like a copyleft coming out. I feel sorry for the likes of TTS, Diablo, and the others that modify the PCM. They are going to have a rough go of it. Edge and the box are okay since they don't change the PCM.

And no, I am not in the market for a EFI or the like ... I don't have the balls to tweak my PCM.

Jim

Take a book, any book.
Written in the front cover is a copyright message, no part may be duplicated, all rights reserved etc.
Because of this message does that mean you cannot look at the book you paid money for?, no, it means you can read it and learn, but when you go and write your own book you cannot duplicate any of that information.
Does this hold the same for electronic duplication?

Cheers,
Ross

Take a book, any book.
Written in the front cover is a copyright message, no part may be duplicated, all rights reserved etc.
Because of this message does that mean you cannot look at the book you paid money for?, no, it means you can read it and learn, but when you go and write your own book you cannot duplicate any of that information.
Does this hold the same for electronic duplication?

Cheers,
Ross

But aren't you writing the same words, just in a different order?:) SO in reality, you are copying the book;) :joke:

Yes BUT there are only so many ways to write the same sentence. I just can't see the harm in tweakinga tune you paid for to make it suit your needs. Or even just study it so you can make educated changes.


Smoke Show
Mitch

Does this hold the same for electronic duplication?

Cheers,
Ross

Yup.
Digital Millenium Copyright Act


IF..... IF the original tuner coding has so been registered.

Every flash tuner probably VIOLATES DELPHI's copyright. Because you are uploading (copying ) their base programming.

However, when using EFI live, if you use another tune as a basemap and change 20% of the coding... you are home free...other than the fact you have 'reverse engineered' part of the codec which IS a violation of the DMCA


http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf


FYI

Okay, show of hands who really gives a Censored about this anymore?

Anyone?


Anyone at all?


Okay. Now that our post counts are up, moving on to something more productive. :D

:agreed:

Where I feel Delphi and the automakers fell down on their copyright was that when they sold you the vehicle they did not tell you it contained copyrights materials. As such there were a few court cases in the early days and the automakers lost. There was a bunch of legal mombo jumble but I believe this is the reason they lost. Also the government has forced them to make the software available to aftermarket facility's for a reasonable cost to help in repairs. After this I think they just gave up trying. The aftermarket learned from this and put copyright notices in the manuals and in the programmers if they use a text screen. There have been a few court case already and the aftermarket copyrights have been upheld. SuperChips and Hypertech both have won in court. The other thing you need to remember is to use the 20% rule you need to change 20% of the entire code set. The LB7 is 512K, that's 524,288 bytes of code so you need to change 104,857.6 bytes of code to get there. :eek: The LLY is twice that much! Guess what you are not going to get there with EFILive or any other tuning tool on the market today!

Plus they may not sell as many vehicles if you weren't able to buy aftermarket products (flash tuners) to enhance their performance. If the vehicle manufacturers had done it right they should be getting some sort of royalty payments for all the aftermarket tuners. I personally am glad they didn't.

The 20% you change would have to be in the coded tables you are ripping off in order to stay '''legal''' much less data.

BUT

As always IF you use someone else's "Base Map" as a starting point, and change 20% you are still on the hook, as you have effectively reverse engineered' the parameter (DMCA covers the rev engineering in detail)
Further, You can back up the tune you have bought, but to change and redistribute is an offence as is selling it for profit unless you have developed the code from scratch.

Granted, there is only so many ways to encode where the fuel tables are located in the ECM. Whether it by GUI or Hexeditor.

I cannot answer for every tuner out there but most if not all have copyright protected there work. What you are purchasing is the right to use it, not ownership of it. If you were to make a backup copy just for yourself, no problem. Once you share that with anyone else you are in violation of copyright law. If you look at how the work was done then share that information with someone else you are in violation of copyright law. There is the fine line between legal and not legal. Like I said in my first post if you take the stock tune from your truck and use any tuning tool to modify it to your liking then its yours to do what you want, but if you download your stock file then download a TTS or any other tune to see what we've done, then make those same changes to the stock file you've just stolen the work which would be a copyright violation. Trading tunes that were based on someone else's copyrighted work is the same deal. If you look at most any programmer there will be a copyright protection notice either in the instruction booklet included with the programmer or in the on line instructions.

And now for those that never thought about just looking at your tune and making the same changes to their own ecm, you have just given them the info to do it.....:eek:

And now for those that never thought about just looking at your tune and making the same changes to their own ecm, you have just given them the info to do it.....:eek:

Steve doesn't have anything to worry about. I am sure most of the TTS Extreme's out there are Encrypted in the table area.
It's not terribly hard to do.

It can be as simple as windows webdings Et Al

http://cpan.uwinnipeg.ca/htdocs/PDF-API2/webdings.pm.html


As with most common encryptions there is public key and private key types

WEP is most common on wireless networks for example http://www.zyxel.com/support/supportnote/ZyAIR_B1000/app/wep.htm

Or simply buy your own version and start hacking!
http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Best/hex-encryption.html

I am not against anyone starting with a table editor (EFILive or Wester's)and working there way through it all, more power to them. Just do it on your own, but those who are taking Bullydog, Superchips, Hypertech, TTS ect. and reading them and then passing them around on the internet are indeed breaking the law. No one told us how to do it or showed us what to do we just got in there and learned as we went along. What we've learned is what we sell and if you get in there on your own and learn it then by all means bring a product out and begin selling it.

I am not against anyone starting with a table editor (EFILive or Wester's)and working there way through it all, more power to them. Just do it on your own, but those who are taking Bullydog, Superchips, Hypertech, TTS ect. and reading them and then passing them around on the internet are indeed breaking the law. No one told us how to do it or showed us what to do we just got in there and learned as we went along. What we've learned is what we sell and if you get in there on your own and learn it then by all means bring a product out and begin selling it.


Agreed, and that was the first question I asked , seems that there are some that have mastered the Duramax in 1 month, how ,I dont know? but it took you several months and much research to get there , now we have a bunch of tuner experts trading tunes like baseball cards! from shade tree mechanic to supertuner in a flash!!!!

It sounds kinda like this forum to me. How do you know if the tune you got was written by someone who knows their stuff or by some joe blow retard who things he knows something but actually wrote a tune that is inefficent and harmful to your rig?

Agreed, and that was the first question I asked , seems that there are some that have mastered the Duramax in 1 month, how ,I dont know? but it took you several months and much research to get there , now we have a bunch of tuner experts trading tunes like baseball cards! from shade tree mechanic to supertuner in a flash!!!!

Some of us have been using the "ATAEM". :eek:

Correct me if I'm wrong but i would bet a majority of people purchased EFILive with no intent to sell anything. I purchased this program to make tunes for my truck, and have the ability to fine tune them. Does that make me a threat to those who do this for a living, no.

I had no idea where to start with the tables so I asked for help, and I got it. Was I wrong asking for help? I don't think so.

Some of us have been using the "ATAEM". :eek:


Trippin I may need the ******* to help get going !!!!!(after fat man comes)

Agreed, and that was the first question I asked , seems that there are some that have mastered the Duramax in 1 month, how ,I dont know? but it took you several months and much research to get there , now we have a bunch of tuner experts trading tunes like baseball cards! from shade tree mechanic to supertuner in a flash!!!!

Well, to be honest, I am impressed with the level of tuning knowledge our beta testers have, there has been very little in the way of 'what does this do', it's more like, I am looking at table 'xx' and I can see why my truck runs like it does, I've just changed it by 'x' amount and seen the improvement.
I'm giving credit where credit is due, there is some knowledgeable people out there, they just never had the tools at their disposal to do anything with it.

Cheers,
Ross

Trippin I may need the ******* to help get going !!!!!(after fat man comes)

Did you ask the Fat Man to bring you one?

Advanced Trial And Error Method. :D

Just another thought for all to ponder, there is nothing stopping ANY company purchasing EFILive to enhance their own tunes.
So what happens if handheld brand 'x' releases a new update in 3 months that is leagues above what they had done before and was developed using EFILive?, are we still the industry bad guy then?.

Cheers,
Ross

Just another thought for all to ponder, there is nothing stopping ANY company purchasing EFILive to enhance their own tunes.
So what happens if handheld brand 'x' releases a new update in 3 months that is leagues above what they had done before and was developed using EFILive?, are we still the industry bad guy then?.

Cheers,
Ross

Yes. Pretty much.

:D

Did you ask the Fat Man to bring you one?

Advanced Trial And Error Method. :D


YES, :ro) but the kids come first,:D and my wife has no chance in hell in supprising me with it ,(unless you call her and place the order for her):h ) I am excited to customize my truck to my personal needs!

Well I can give you guys my take on it. I'm one of the tuners that spend the time and money to figure things out and make them work. So if you copy my work then you have stolen my work and that's what copyright protection is all about. If you buy EFILive and start with your own stock truck tune and make a tune from scratch then by all means it's yours to do with as you wish, but if on the other hand you look at what I or others have done then make the same changes with a few minor changes then you are in violation of copyright law. We at TTS have locked our code just for that reason and anyone who tries to or who does break the locks is in violation of copyright law and should be charged. Let's look at it the same as going into your house by break the door locks and taking your TV and stereo, would you not call that stealing? Takeing someone elses work that you do not own is doing the same thing.

I agree ...I would call it software piracy like most software companies would.

and my wife has no chance in hell in supprising me with it ,(unless you call her and place the order for her):h )

Done, she just purchased a workshop version, Merry Christmas ;)

Cheers,
Ross

even from Austrailia you can get the fat man to cooperate?:p: Even if I have been bad this year?:eek: .......................but when Im bad Im at my best !!!!):h

Did you ask the Fat Man to bring you one?

Advanced Trial And Error Method. :D

I am on my way to mastering that one for sure.

Just another thought for all to ponder, there is nothing stopping ANY company purchasing EFILive to enhance their own tunes.
So what happens if handheld brand 'x' releases a new update in 3 months that is leagues above what they had done before and was developed using EFILive?, are we still the industry bad guy then?.

Cheers,
Ross

What if that update was written by a member here on this very board.

What if something someone here writes is so good that it ends up in a commercial tuners hands and they suddenly are the tune to beat.

How does someone who is tuning now going to copyright their own custom tunes and not be pirated themselves.

It is no secret that most of the handhelds have issues with them, they all for the most part have things that can be changed but have not, that is the reason you see people constantly looking for something else.

I have had no help other than making a lot of bad tunes and a few good ones. Do they compare to the TTS XTreme, not yet, do I think they are good, Yes.

Can I claim to be an expert tuner, NOPE.

I am having fun and I am learning.

The biggest thing was to understand what the tables actually do. Then you have to understand why the changes you make either work or do not.

That process is becoming very time consuming, I have written many variations of a pretty good running tune I WROTE, I have been tweaking it a little here and there, with some success and plenty of failures.

Maybe at some point I will have a truly awesome tune, I may never, but trying to succeed is far better than never trying it at all.

I have some tunes to write.

See You in the rear view.

T:cool: NY