AV LUBE Tests on 14K Injector Failure [Archive] - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

: AV LUBE Tests on 14K Injector Failure


Campfire_Rick
02-24-2004, 02:04 PM
Hi Guys:


I thought the following would provide good data on a variety of fronts. First, the facts.


As most of you know, my truck had an injector problem at 14,400 miles. Injector #1 stuck open. As part of the repair, I asked for fuel and oil samples, which were provided.


Yesterday I received from AV 3 oil analysis kits and 1 fuel analysis kit.


The fuel sample taken was from the fuel in the tank when the injector gave. It was taken from the out line post OEM fuel filter. The truck has a pre-OEM Nicktane (large CAT filter) as well. Both the CAT and OEM fuel filter were changed at 13,500 miles, so only 900 miles on both units at time of injector failure, and the sample taken after going through both. There was a half-tank remaining in the truck. One notable fact: I did not have the sample bottle available when the repair was done. The sample was captured and provided in a 12-oz. Arrowhead water bottle. After receiving the kit, I simply opened the AV bottle, poured in the fuel, and closed it fast. What and how much of an effect the capturing method will have we'll just have to see.


The first oil sample was of the oil in the crankcase when the injector gave. It had less than 150 miles on it. When I checked the oil while waiting for the tow truck, it was clear, yellow, no soot, the right level, and no smell of diesel. After the repair, when I went to deliver the oil for them to put in the crankcase, the dipstick showed very sooty oil, and smelled of diesel. They obviously ran it some. Delo 400, Baldwin 1440s are the components. Another caveat: They didn't have a sample bottle. The sample was provided in a 16-oz glass juice bottle. Same comments as above as to sampling.


The second oil sample I sent out was of oil dropped at 15511, 1007 miles on it, consisting of a 600-mile round-tripper to Vegas, and the rest a mix of city and highway. I wanted to get any diesel residue out of the crankcase, plus check for any problems. It was sooty. I'm hoping fuel-in-oil levels here are very low. Another caveat: No sample bottle available. The sample was given to me in a STP fuel-injector cleaner bottle. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif


The last sample will be taken at my next drop, at 2500 miles, in as sterile conditions as I can swing, and I'm really looking for this sample to indicate all is well and good.


As a point of order, I have had a UNI installed since well before these samples were ever put in the truck, so aside from the potentially non-sterile sampling techniques, we might get a good indicator of how the Uni is working in my engine.


I'm also hoping to see good fuel results as to Nicktane, sampling technique be damned.


I've asked on all paperwork that George be informed.


Cross your fingers for me, guys.


Rick

Idle_Chatter
02-24-2004, 03:06 PM
When I checked the oil while waiting for the tow truck, it was clear, yellow, no soot, the right level, and no smell of diesel. After the repair, when I went to deliver the oil for them to put in the crankcase, the dipstick showed very sooty oil, and smelled of diesel.


Rick, just a side note, the oil on the dipstick will often appear much clearer and soot-free that the oil drained from the pan. It's some strange anomoly of the silvery metal of the dipstick and the thin film on the stick. I was puzzled a couple of times early on that my oil appeared so clean when pulling the stick and was so black coming out of the drain. As far as the diesel smell - this doesn't explain that.

Kennedy
02-24-2004, 04:37 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but samples contained in 3rd party packaging will not be worth the time of analyzing. There's just too much possiblity of contamination.





Clean specimen bottles are tough enough to acheive, so we typically triple rinse the bottles (shake with cap on) with the source material to ensure the least possible, and of course, the cleaner the environment...

Campfire_Rick
02-24-2004, 05:32 PM
Yeah, I know, but keep in mind that the most important numbers for me here are not minute particles of contamination, but, quite frankly, the level of fuel in the oil.


I'm fully aware that if the oil samples come back "dirty" the results will not be reliable because of the potential contamination. However, if they come back clean, then the results will be doubly remarkable, and maybe useful in the context of prior discussions re Unis and Fuel filtration. We'll see.


Bottom line: None of the third-party containers are going to introduce fuel into the oil, and that's my number 1 concern right now. The rest can wait for another day/another poster.


I'm only curious as to the amount of water in the fuel sample, seeing as the bottle used was a water bottle. Regardless, I gotta work with what was available, and better this sample from the fuel actually in the truck at the time, than no sample at all..


Like I said, now that I have the sample bottle, the next, and maybe most important, oil sample will be taken correctly.


Rick

Campfire_Rick
02-26-2004, 03:25 PM
OK Folks, the first test is in. Fuel.






<TABLE borderColor=#06c200 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=776 border=1>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="12%" height=6>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=6>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=6>


</TD>
<TD width="4%" height=6>


</TD>
<TD width="14%" height=6>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=6>


</TD>
<TD width="6%" height=6>


</TD>
<TD width="17%" height=6>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=6>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=6>


</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="12%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="4%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="14%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="6%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="28%" colSpan=2 height=28>
Judgment of condition</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=28>


</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="12%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="4%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="14%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="6%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="17%" height=28>
Normal</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=28>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=28>


</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="12%" height=27>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=27>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=27>


</TD>
<TD width="4%" height=27>


</TD>
<TD width="14%" height=27>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=27>


</TD>
<TD width="6%" height=27>


</TD>
<TD width="17%" height=27>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=27>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=27>


</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="12%" height=17>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=17>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=17>


</TD>
<TD width="4%" height=17>


</TD>
<TD width="14%" height=17>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=17>


</TD>
<TD width="6%" height=17>


</TD>
<TD width="17%" height=17>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=17>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=17>


</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="12%" height=8>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=8>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=8>


</TD>
<TD width="4%" height=8>


</TD>
<TD width="14%" height=8>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=8>


</TD>
<TD width="6%" height=8>


</TD>
<TD width="17%" height=8>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=8>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=8>


</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="12%" height=26>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=26>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=26>


</TD>
<TD width="4%" height=26>


</TD>
<TD width="14%" height=26>
Fuel Test</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=26>


</TD>
<TD width="6%" height=26>


</TD>
<TD width="17%" height=26>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=26>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=26>


</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="12%" height=16>
Customer:</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=16>
Rick</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=16>


</TD>
<TD width="4%" height=16>


</TD>
<TD width="14%" height=16>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=16>


</TD>
<TD width="6%" height=16>


</TD>
<TD width="17%" height=16>


</TD>
<TD width="11%" height=16>


</TD>
<TD width="9%" height=16>


</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="12%" height=16>
Attn:</TD>
<TD width="20%" colSpan=2 height=16>
www.24hourcampfire.com (http://www.24hourcampfire.com)</TD>
<TD width="4%" height=1

DavesDmax
02-26-2004, 06:53 PM
Considering the sampling methodology, them some darn good numbers!

Campfire_Rick
02-26-2004, 07:02 PM
And here's the oil:





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/264_AV.gif

Campfire_Rick
02-26-2004, 07:04 PM
What I don't get is the lack of fuel in the oil in the 14404 sample. That's the oil that was in the truck when the injector gave, and the tech said it has stuck open. Plus it smelled like diesel.


I'm confused.


Rick

SS396
02-26-2004, 10:18 PM
Rick, looking at the low copper numbers on the 14404 sample, did the dealer take a sample after the work was performed and changed the oil?


Edited by: SS396

Campfire_Rick
02-27-2004, 01:32 AM
Nope. That was fresh oil, 150 miles old, when the injector gave. That's the oil that was in the crankcase when the injector blew. The second test is of the fresh oil put in after repairing the injector, after I put 1000 miles on it and quick-dropped it.


This next oil test is going to be quite telling, I think.


I still can't explain the lack of fuel in the oil in either sample. The injector stuck open!


Rick

Idle_Chatter
02-27-2004, 08:40 AM
Rick, a stuck open or over-returning injector will not necessarily add a great amount of fuel to the crankcase. The amount of unburned fuel and the tightness of the affected cylinder's piston rings would limit transfer. If the injector and return lines are tight, there won't be any transfer to the oil under the valve cover. Most of the high fuel-in-oil incidents have come from leaking injector bodies/seats under the valve cover or leaking injector return lines in the same area.

TOXIC
02-27-2004, 11:34 AM
So what is the most probable culprit for the failure?





TOXIC

Campfire_Rick
02-27-2004, 01:22 PM
Well, we can eliminate fuel quality in this instance. No water gulp noted.


I'd say a defective injector at this point.


I'd like to hear from George, though there might not be much not in the open here for him to divulge.





Rick

BlueMaxxxx
03-06-2004, 08:32 PM
Rick that all looks like damn good news to me. If I gotta go through this it would at least be some small relief to know that the injector was simply defective. It's still a real pisser but mechanical things fail. I think I would be VERY relieved at those numbers http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Frank Blum
03-06-2004, 10:04 PM
Rick, if you decide to take another sample send me a PM and I will send you the technique I used to get my sample. I used a combination of two other guys methods. My results are posted on the diesel page under the user name of Lone Eagle. Later! Frank