Hey guys, well I was hoping that attending and seein the results from the LA dyno day would help me make a decision about what tuner to run but not seeing the six-gun run was a let down. The TTS tow seems to make good power as well as the juice/attitude but which will offer the best protection to my tranny and my aggressive driving. I really like seeing the big numbers but don't have the money for tranny upgrades or potential problems right now. I expected a bit more from the stinger set-up but maybe with the six gun's adjustability it would be comparable to the juice on the lower settings.


Any comments or suggestions from you guys who tow alot?

I was advised to "get juiced" since my intended use was towing my 5th wheel RV. So far I've been totally satisfied with the power and Juice's protectiveness toward my Allison tranny.


Being the conservative sort, I only tow in Level 1 in the mountains but sneak into level 2 on the mostly flat stuff. For me, the critical need is more to get up to freeway speeds on the many steep on-ramps around here as well as initial acceleration at launch. Secondarily was to stay in cruise control longer while in mountainous areas. In flat steady driving, frankly I could be in level 0 or 5 and not really tell the difference because I wouldn't be using the difference.


It's surpassed my expectations. I towed the Grapevine Grade, southbound toward the Los Angeles basin on Christmas day and passed every truck, every motorhome, every trailer and several cars while staying in level one cruise control. It shifted out of overdrive, of course, but I had lots of reserve power available and my EGT's never went above 1250, usually at or near 1100 for most of the grade.

I've only towed with the Juice (or Hot Juice w/attitude) and or propane, so that's all I can honestly discuss.


Propane works very well and drops EGTs slightly, in addition to coming in smoothly like having a bigger turbo. The drawback to it is you have to install a tank and buy propane periodically. It comes set for 100hp (mine dyno'd at 98hp, close enough) but can be adjusted easily.


The Juice worked great, EGTs were always reasonable given the power increase, but I really wished there was a way to change levels while driving.


The Juice W/Attitude came out and a lot of my prayers have been answered. Six different levels (level 0 adds 18hp?), push a button to change up or down, displays 4 out of about 13 parameters - totally eliminates the need for gauges (I'd already spent $700 for a set!) allows you to adjust low boost fueling and trans shifting, plus trans protection and lots of other little things.


To me, the best part is how quiet and smoke free the truck is. To be able to talk quietly while flying past others uphill towing a trailer with no smoke at speed - I bet it just breaks all of those motorhome and Ford owner's hearts!


Another option you might look into (hopefully an owner will chime in) is the TTS programmed ECM. All of the trucks running that at yesterday's L.A. dyno event were very quiet, IMO as quieter or quieter than Juiced trucks (by a small margin) and they were all on their race or extreme settings, so I'm guessing that the engine is nice and quiet on the tow program.

yea I am curious to hear more about the TTS and hopefulyl the banks six-gun as well. I like the juice/attitude easy install and mainly good feedback but would rather have guages to look at than the attitude display. I have a Apexi boost controller in my integra GSR that is similar to the attitude display and find that I prefer guages, but I might have to try and find out especially since there might be a group buy going on.

Chaps,


Got back this evening and the truck ran great. I ran the six-gun in 3 and only turned it down once while going up the grade on the 60 heading toward Indio. EGT's would hit 1275-1300 when pushed but backing off the throttle instantly brought them under control. I haven't modified my exhaust at all and I suspect that just changing the muffler would avoid me having to back off. I did have to gas it coming back on the freeway to avoid traffic coming up and turned it up to 5. The truck hit the max EGT's in just a few seconds but by that time I was going 55+!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif Total load this trip was just shy of 25,000lbs.


Am I happy with the Six-Gun? YES!


I have not installed the speed loader option yet (time didn't allow me before this trip).http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif But I look forward to the increased safety it will offer.


Mileage seems to have gone up 1/2-1 MPG with the load and cruise set at 60MPH. Funny thing is at the end of the trip I kicked it up to 65 and the DIC started showing 9-10MPG.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Maybe I should have held it there the whole time.

That is good to hear, I am leaning towards the six-gun but always take alot of time in making decisions. I am starting to hear more and more good things about it and so if things keep up then I will go for it as well.

It would be interesting to see how all the tuners rate for quietness and smoothness. After all who wants something that sounds like a powerchoke?

Chaps,


Got back this evening and the truck ran great. I ran the six-gun in 3 and only turned it down once while going up the grade on the 60 heading toward Indio. EGT's would hit 1275-1300 when pushed but backing off the throttle instantly brought them under control. I haven't modified my exhaust at all and I suspect that just changing the muffler would avoid me having to back off. I did have to gas it coming back on the freeway to avoid traffic coming up and turned it up to 5. The truck hit the max EGT's in just a few seconds but by that time I was going 55+!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif Total load this trip was just shy of 25,000lbs.


Am I happy with the Six-Gun? YES!


I have not installed the speed loader option yet (time didn't allow me before this trip).http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif But I look forward to the increased safety it will offer.


Mileage seems to have gone up 1/2-1 MPG with the load and cruise set at 60MPH. Funny thing is at the end of the trip I kicked it up to 65 and the DIC started showing 9-10MPG.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Maybe I should have held it there the whole time.

I have the speedloader hooked up with a banks 4" cat back
just returned from 700 - 800 mile trip in the mountains pulling
about 20000 gvw on level 3. truck would pull at 1600 to 1700 rpm
up 6% grades in OD. In level 2 it would down shift to 4th on occatoin. egt's
never hit 1250 so exhaust must be helping. speeds averaged 60 to 65. 75 if you wanted to smoother than stock and no noise at all
no smoke.

I am not really familiar with the advantages/disadvantages of each set-up, banks/speedloader vs. edge/attitude. I have heard of the attitude monitoring and showing tanny slippage, and adjustable de-fueling, boost setting adjustablility. Does the banks monitor the same things but not display them or give you the option of changing them, or am I wrong about the edge/attitude set-up?

Also, can I run a an EGT guage off the same probe that I run the six-gun or edge with?

Can't run the EGT probe off the same as the gauge. I talked to the Engineers at Banks hopeing to do the same thing. It's also why the speed-loader option isn't installed on mine yet, need to find another spot. With the speed loader, when temps hit 1300 it starts backing off the power until your in a safe temp (forgot to ask what that is, will have to call today and find out).


As FISHHOG said, no additional noise or smoke. Shifting seems to be better with the additional power.


The EGT probe is only used with the speed-loader option by the way.

Hello,


I was dissapointed as well by the 6-gun no show. One thing to remeber about the Banks is the fact that it raises pressure in addition to changing timing and pulse width. It is like a well mannered stack all in one. This will allow for a cleaner burning truck.


Regardless of who's module/programmer you are using I personally do not believe you should ever run any kind of tune that creates that much black smoke. If 75HP is all a guy can get without the black smoke well then 75HP it is. When you start to get that much smoke, it is time to get a wrench out and change some parts. Woops, I forgot the dyno queens don't own any tools, just computers. It is funny how the dyno queens drive the market in the direction of high dyno. numbers. It is a funny game. If I was a module manufacture only tring to make money, I would just keep tweaking to get the highest dyno. numbers and forget about all other factors. Tranny slip/heat/turbine speed/lung plugging mind numbing paint stripping black smoke. Keeps the dyno queens happy! For those of us in the real world there are different options. Black smoke is a passing fad. In the future I see bigger turbos, more thourough intake and exaust air flow reworking, computerized NO2 systems that allow constant use vs. drag race only, camshafts and other effecient power gains. Sad to say but the Dodge boys have been doing other things than increasing injection timing for many years. When the Dmax crowd gets there wrenches out and starts doing some real work, I see incredible numbers being posted by the Dmax! 30-50% above what the supposed gurus are currently running. You will see. It might be 5 years from now, but this post right here today will be the most relevent bit of info. ever posted here on the "place."


PS. go do some research on Diesel soot. It is ranked right up there with Abestos and Raydon. Go look. You will see. It's your lungs, just don't come looking for my tax dollars!


PSS. This post is only designed to erk 3-4 members. The rest of you, please take it with a grain of salt.


PSSS. My days are numbered here at the "place" So I figured I might as well do some good before I get black balled by the dyno. queens/resident experts/vendors peddeling junk. Call me Mr. x, Call me pest, Call me troll, Call me Al Gore, Call me an a-hole. If there was no truth to my post, you would not be calling me anyting. Guess I better go look for a new formn created by the people for the people!Edited by: Bronco

bronco


relax, i think there is enough room for all of us here, the regular folks, like you i, and the horse power junkies. in someways i think the junkies help keep the venders making better products. after all, there's no one louder and unhappier than a dissatisfied junkie. they will scream and shout at any one that will listen, and that usually makes it back to the venders


thanks, john


02 chevy drw cc lb 4x4 lt

Can't run the EGT probe off the same as the gauge. I talked to the Engineers at Banks hopeing to do the same thing. It's also why the speed-loader option isn't installed on mine yet, need to find another spot. With the speed loader, when temps hit 1300 it starts backing off the power until your in a safe temp (forgot to ask what that is, will have to call today and find out).


As FISHHOG said, no additional noise or smoke. Shifting seems to be better with the additional power.


The EGT probe is only used with the speed-loader option by the way.

the speedloader egt signal is sent to the sixgun mudule for monitoring
egt's. it is also sent to my Banks gauges in the overhead console from the six gun module. boost is also recieved from the six gun module as well. Banks does not include the wiring harness for the gauges in the base sixgun pkg. but they will ship it to you on request. the gauges that you use may need to be purchased from Banks and are electronic . if the sixgun detects high egt's with the speedloader option it will back out fuel to bring things in to ck. after 5 tcc lockups it will re introduce fuel again. if you don't install the speedloader option you will not get the protection of high egt's. very well engineered and thought out. all items work well as a unit.

follow this link to my trucks dyno runs http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5191&PN=2&TPN=1Edited by: FISHHOG

Fishhog is probably correct on the probe from banks being compatible with there own stuff. I didn't ask that question as I already had my own gauges.

I have an 03 duramax with a 96 horse hypertech and I was thinking of switching to the six gun. Is it really worth it? I have done some other modifications by putiing in a K&N filter and recently adding 5 inch stacks. I am pulling heavy loads on a regular basis, but didn't want a transmission upgrade. Will the six gun work for me or should I just stay where I'm at?

I would like to hear more input on the issue as well, I am thinking about going for the six-gun(ordering this weekend) I want some hauling power, without having to worry about my tranny. I think that the banks seems to offer what I need, hauling power with built in safety. I want to be able to stomp it without starting at an EGT guage up the grade the whole time and let the comp. do the backing off for me. I am not worried about CRAZY numbers but 400hp+ would be nice!


Anyone have any last minute comments edge vs. banks for towing>?

TTT


Are there any features that the banks lacks that might sway me to the edge or visa versa?

By the sounds of it the Edge is much, much easier to hook up. IMO the edge is better but I have no first hand experience with the banks. Only what I read. You would have to pry my edge from my cold dead hands to get it away from me.

yea I am not too concerned with the install, more concerned with my tranny, I am torn because I always "want" more power but don't want to have to upgrade my tranny anytime in the next 40,000 miles. And most people I see running juice have their tranny upgrade listed right next to it in their signature. If the banks will offer me good towing power and keep me satisfied in terms of power for a while and offers the safety I need then I guess I will go for it, just wish there were more good things to say about it floating around here, but I guess I will have to find out for myself...........

You should be concerned with the install since it is a good idea to remove it when you take it to your dealer. I also understand that with the banks you have to splice wires, I don't like that.

The Juice 90hp is every bit as safe as the banks. The people with tranny upgrades are usually running more then just 90hp juice.

I have only had my truck into the dealer once and now with my lift don't want to hear their BS about how my lift caused my heated seat to stop working (ok im kidding there) and so as long as my truck treates me good for the next 10,000 miles then my warranty will be done with and I won't need to take equipment off before I take the truck in. I don't like hearing about people running juice having their truck stall out on them, but the banks hasen't been around long enough to show similar issues. I just feel like banks kicked their own ass by not bringing a truck to the LA dyno day to let us see run, that was going to hopefulyl help me make a decision.

In a week or two I will be doing a direct comparison between my Juice/Attitude and a Banks Six-Gun.


I'm sure that neither one of these will harm your transmission as long as you don't beat on it too hard with the Juice on level 5. What I will be looking for is:


a) low RPM torque.


b) engine smoothness


c) driveability issues.


I'll do my best to list the good/bad about both. One really nice thing the Juice has going for it over the Banks is the Attitude monitor. You don't need gauges with the Six-Gun/Speed Loader either but they're nice to have.


I won't be comparing these on the dyno, I think everyone has seen that the Juice is the winner there. I want to see which is the winner on the road.

I think everyone has a choice but everyone has been overlooking the most critical part and that is EGT'S while towing. longer inj. pulse width=more fuel=more fuel entering the combustion chamber closer to ex. valve opening whitch inturn causes incomplete burning of the fuel allowing more fuel to enter into the exhaust system unburn't causing excessive egt's to shyrocket. I have not towed with the edge box so could not know how it would react to high egt's without the attitude to go with it. I do have a six gun/speeloader that I installed in approx 3 hrs. including the probe in the right ex. manifold and banks gauges in the overhead console. I haved towed with this on level 3 and have not seen any egt's in excess of 1200 on long 3-4 mile 6% -7% grades pulling this load below. maybe someone can tell me how the edge monitors trans slip and tcc? is this signal present at the master plug on the engine? how does edge keep from setting overboost codes? without the attitude option how do you know what level your in? does dyno HP at 3000 rpm
tow your load at 2000 rpm? banks six-gun only needs one probe for both egt monitor and egt gauge.boost comes from six-gun module to gauge.good luck with what ever one you choose.
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Edited by: FISHHOG

Ordered banks six gun this morning, will be here tom. thanks to xtremediesel.com and hopefully I will have it installed by the end of the day, wensday to play with it and let the tranny re-learn and then towing to the desert thursday. I will let you guys know what I think!


Thanks for all the input

Got everything installed but my dad thinks we should wait till tom. to install the thermocoupe/speedloader. I took it for a quick spin on level 3 but kept breaking loose in 1-2 because the roads are a bit slick from rain earlier. I will keep you guys posted on what i think and will be towing with it this weekend.

NEVER put off till tomorrow what u could have done last nite!!!!!!


Think of all the fun u could have had last nite playing after the install, who needs sleep anyway.

Yea I feel like my dads influence is wearing on me. When we put a turbo kit on my integra he told me the same thing but I worked all through the night. Atleast its all down now though and the thermocoupe install went pretty easy even though my shock hoop was kinda in the way. Now I gotta go try it out, and atleast the road is dry now!

Well, what did you think? I am looking for similar answers to similar questions.

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JUICE OR BANKS??? STILL WONDERING, STILL LISTENING


LOVE THE CHATTERhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif IF I HADN'T BOUGHT THIS BIG DOLLAR TRUCK, I COULD AFFORD ALL THESE GREAT MODS!!!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif</TD></TR>
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Good reading more info on Banks.I am leaning towards the Six Gun/Speed Loader also.Like to hear how it went Chaps?

Well I haven't even been above level 4 yet and can't keep the smile off my face already. It just keeps pulling and pulling, it does make the shift feel weak now but after the brief pause the thing pulls hard right to the next shift. I towed my 22 ft. twin axle flat trailor, with 3 dirtbikes, 1 quad, 2 xr 50's, prob. 300+ pounds of wood, 15 gallons of gas etc. and the truck (still running 3.73 and turning 40's) pulled great. I maintained the same speeds up hill that I used to but a gear higher and at 2,000 rpm instead of 3,200 which reflected in my gas milage going up about 3 mpg. This was a light load but this weekend I will be towing my dad's warrior with our buggy in it which should weigh in at about 10,000 pounds. I will let ya guys know how it goes this weekend but I must say that im very happy with my banks six-gun.