Some seem to think we are making this up to sell parts. Personally, I'd rather soup up a Dmax than troubleshoot/repair one. I'm not saying that injector issues are entirely fuel quality related OR that they are occurring in epidemic proportions, but guys the writing is on the wall.


Injector inventories are RESTRICTED. Dealers who normally stocked 24 units have ZERO inventory because they cannot get them without attaching a VIN to the order. It does not seem to matter what the model year is. The old 6.2/6.5 injectors lasted a long time, and even though they only had an optimum useful life of 70-90k, they never really quit, just faded off into the sunset. Here we have injectors out at 20, 40, 60k, causing no starts, smoking, full crankcases etc!





I just spoke with one dealer (sales dept) looking for help as he was frustrated and embarassed to have customers kicking his ass because the truck that he sold them was costing $5k in repairs for injectors as it was out of warranty. As a result of the success stories from his customers running secondary filtration, they will be stocking and installing filter kits. I have had contact from multiple dealers who have installed my fuel filter kits as a result of failures.





Oh yeah,


The OEM fuel filter prices are going up. Looks like around $5ea. They just went up a few months ago! Must be running out of scrap AMC's to recycle for the canister material http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gifEdited by: Kennedy

Kennedy,


They just forgot to charge for the rust from the factory. Now the price reflects the rust plus the filter.


Ron

$5 for injector repairs is outrageous http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

I'm filtered and got my fingers crossed.

Oops, edited to $5k...

John, I must take issue with you regarding the injector life for the 6.5TD's. I still have some scar tissue from having to write a $3,700 check for pump and injector replacement in our 6.5TD. With 60,000 miles on it. Warranty was disallowed due to visible RUST in the fuel system. I followed the recommendations of GM and did NOT use Primrose in that vehicle. Which resulted in severe rust conditions and warranty disallow..
Moreover, pump was trashed, as were the injectors and the original bill was for $5,000+ but argued down to the paid amount due to new Duramax on order.. That same dealer currently has five 6.5TD's sitting out back with owners refusing/unable to pay for fuel system repairs along with 2 Duramax, same deal... Injector/pump issues are not Duramax issues alone....

George,


I believe that you are one of the few. I'd wager that statistically speaking only a fraction of a percent of 6.5 engines produced ever had even one injector replaced pre 100k, yet that same small percentage would be the ones who did NOT have a (or multiple) pump replacements. I'm sure though,if a guy throws enough crap at them, even the 6.5 injectors can be destroyed...

My 1997's 6.5TD injectors lasted a long time. I only replaced them at 240,000 kms because my mileage was dropping and I was looking for an excuse to put in the high flow injectors. I also still had the original pump when I traded it at 300,000 kms. I am going to get secondary filtration on my Duramax soon. It can't hurt and what is a few hundred bucks anyhow considering the sticker price of the truck.

I was at my dealer yesterday getting a recall done on my wife's Jimmy, and the service manager said that today must be injector pump day. They had three for the day, all 6.5's. My '93 6.5 had 158k when I sold it with original pump and injectors. My son saw it yesterday, still going.

I was at my dealer yesterday getting a recall done on my wife's Jimmy, and the service manager said that today must be injector pump day. They had three for the day, all 6.5's. My '93 6.5 had 158k when I sold it with original pump and injectors. My son saw it yesterday, still going.





It should be noted that the DS4 electrnic pump for the 6.5 seldom fails for mechanical reasons because they typically do not last long before experiencing an electronics failure.

JK...back to your original post on additional filtering on the Dmax, thanks for the clarification. I agree with you, and believe that anyone planning to keep their trucks should add something. Pre or post, you, George, Eric, and a number of others have more than shown that clean fuel is a must for the Dmax.

93 was the last year for the mechanical injection pump on the 6.5


Mine never missed a beat and I ran no extra filtration and only additives once in a while, mostly in winter. And it burned home heating oil with out a hicup.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Miss that old engine http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

This is the kind of news I really don't want to hear. An Old timer was telling me before I bought my D/A, his opinion on all these High Performance Diesels, you will sacrifice durability, you want speed buy a gasser. At the time I thought hey, keep driving that Dog of a Dieselhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif( old Cummins) Old man, and I am going with Technologyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif.


Well He is still driving that thing, its no speedster, must have a Gazillion miles on it, and Injectors are cheap. So there is something to be said you wanta play, you gotta pay, I figure I need to add 2 or 3 more Fuel filters, carry some Holy Water, and sacrifice a chicken or something in hopes of making it to 150,000 miles without Injector issues. But betting on secondary filtering, if not I might regress and get something 4 or 5 years older, but sure would miss all the other great features of the D/Ahttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif Wondering if Ford and Dodge will have the same issues, I know Fords set-up is different, but Dodge is very much like GM's.

when it all comes down to it all our issues come from the fuel.... end of story.all vechicles have issues..all of them. we look only at the d/max cause we drive and work on them...as a tech i say filtration is always good. yet the gm in me says dont add it it may void a warranty.i have had trucks come in with drivability problems. related to 2nd fuel filter.now get 2.0 hrs out of gm not..........2.0 hrs out of the owner good luck......just be careful if your not mechanicaly inclined dont touch it....i agree 2 filters is better than one....cat cummins and detroit very seldom have big fuel issues but they have been doin it a long time.but to iszuz have the npr and dont have near the issues...
i still think it all comes doun to fuel out there.

I still think many of the injector issues come down to a question of lubricity. It doesn't matter how clean your fuel is if it isn't lubing the moving parts. Just my opinion, I am not by no means an expert. (And yes I have read the famous SAE paper everybody references here, but it brought up more questions than it really answered for me. I am currently waiting for the library to get me the 2 papers referenced in that paper.)

Along with cleanliness, DEFINITELY lubricity is a potential issue, as well as water content...

I have been watching these threads on injector failure for quite some time now, but I just can’t seem to convince myself that a clear cause has been identified. Obviously folks are trying to prevent these failures by controlling what they can (cleanliness, lubricity, etc.) but in terms of causality I haven’t seen compelling evidence of the root cause of failures. I am curious if anyone has compiled any sort of post mortem data on the failed injectors? Do we know the failure modes (galling, rust, dirt, internal component failure)? To me it seems that there could be any number of factors contributing. Everything from design faults to material selections or even manufacturing defects could be killing injectors. I certainly hope GM is trying to figure this out. Tracking injectors by VIN is actually an encouraging sign to me. I am hoping they have applied some lessoned learned in the LLY injectors as I will be purchasing one of these overpriced oil-burners within a month or so. And given the trend toward direct injection systems in gasoline engines, they better start getting it right or its gonna be heap big trouble.

Too bad the D-Max has been GM’s development platform.

-Mark

I am a GM tech also and I agree with the last few comments made. Personally I really dont think dirty fuel is causing the injector problems I mean I have personally replace injectors on at least 10 duramax motors and have yet to replace one because it was stopped up. All of them are leaking and in my opinion that is completly a design flaw not a fuel filtration problem. And in no means am I saying adding pre or post filters is a bad thing filtration is great. Anyways thats just my view thought I would share it.





Tanner

When they return excessive fuel (leak) they must either be cracked, sticking, or worn.





The only condition that I see as not fuel related is if they are cracking, or the "swedge balls" are leaking.





I'll add that I've had some deliver low volume, and found them to be in serious need of cleaning as they recovered to the upper 90'th percentile when cleaned with aggressive methods.

Don't get me wrong. I fully believe that inadequate filtration could be causing all of the problems noted. But if a slight redesign of the injector can make it more tolerant of junk in the fuel, fixing the injector seems to be a better long term strategy for GM than just addressing filtration. To GM/Bosch's defense, the injector is arguably the toughest bit of engineering on the whole truck. But I do find it odd that this rough and tumble diesel is so damn finicky about its diet.

-Mark

Kennedy---I really enjoy your posts. Would you please answer two simple and direct questions for me? (1) I use Primrose 405 in every tank of diesel. Will this give me maximum lubrication or do I need to use/add another product? (2) I am about to start useing a Filtermag on my OEM fuel filter. What are your thoughts on using magnets on fuel filters?-----It would be great if George would be kind enough to give his thoughts on these two questions!!-----Thanks------Phil

Re: Primrose 405.* Yes, it provides excellent lubrication in addition to rust prevention, detergency to keep the system clean, cetane boost and water dispersancy.* I will post lubricity/wear BOCLE test results which are excellent. Should have the results later today for posting


Fuel analysis results for Filtermag performance have been pretty amazing in that the Filtermag has cut particle counts in half for specific size spectrums...* Which is an indicator of just how much iron and steel is the major contaminant in diesel fuel.* Which makes perfect sense in that every gallon of diesel fuel flows through literally miles of steel pipe is transferred by steel valves and pumped by steel pumps, all of which wear and are subject to corrosion/rust... Yes, I have found the Filtermag to be very effective as a fuel filter supplement..


George Morrison


*Edited by: Georgecls

My '92 6.5 TD is at 241,000 miles with original injectors but on its 2nd injector pump. Still running. No extra filtering. Only doesn't want to shift into overdrive on occasion and can't figure out why. Shops I have taken it to shrug their shoulders. Its value renders it scrap when viewed against the repair bill.

Hello,


Good news is if you try hard, you can get replacement injectors for 225.00 as compared to the earlier 540.00. Bad news is labor rates will probally never come down unless you hook up with an independant mechaninc with low over head. Original Gm price on all 8 injectors replaced would be 5400.00 total. Now you can have it done for 2880.00 if you supply the reduced priced injectors.


Some things to think about.


1. Deliberate fuel contamintaion due to the easily accsessed filler neck.


2. GIGO. Bad signals from Engine control system.


3. The injector is magneticly operated. Could fuel or oil conductivivty/magnetizm be effecting injector performance?


4. Campfire Rick had injector trouble with low milage and secondary filtration.


In my opinion as long as we all keep using additives and secondary filtration we wil always be having injector troubles! Lets get to the real/other issues at hand.

FWIW, The reason I traded my 95 6.5 for the Dmax is that at 150,000 IIRC it had three of those black box things that sat on the side of the pump replaced and needed it's second pump, would stall in the middle of busy intersections and tripped the MIL a lot, something about injection pulse width. It's stock fuel filter was replaced every 5,000 miles with oil change and the truck was totally stock and did not live a hard life. It pains me that the Dmax has fuel system related problems as well. Oh yeah I'm trying to get a 2 micron filter in place of the stock filter to see of that helps. I don't think that clean fuel is the only issue either, but it's one that I can control.Edited by: a64pilot

I am all for additional filtration. Lets just not get so carried away as to think it is the be all and end all! We are doing ourselves a disservice. We should all put on additional filtration and then move on to the next cause of injector failure. Someday we wil have perfect trucks. If we keep screwin around with additives and filters we are never gonna get there.

The BOCLE tests (for those requesting emperical documentation) for Primrose 405/409 are as follows:
BOCLE (ASTM D-5001) Results

#2 Diesel fuel .80 Wear Scar Diameter
#2 Diesel fuel treated with Primrose 405/409 .45 Wear Scar Diameter

Modified BOCLE test
Low Sulfur Kerosine (1-D) 1,800 grams untreated, 3,000 grams treated with 405/409
Low Sulfur #2 Diesel 2,200 grams untreated, 3,400 grams treated with 405/409
50/50 Low Sulfur Blend 2,500 grams untreated, 3,900 grams treated with 405/409

George MorrisonEdited by: Georgecls

Thank you George, I appreciate the numbers. Have you run the test with other additives for comparison?

Again, the injector/pump issues are not Duramax issues alone. These problems fall under the general heading of "ultra high pressure fuel systems". CAT, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and International are all experiencing relatively short pump and injector life. Ten years ago fuel dilution and fuel system issues were a fairly rare occurrance. Today it is the single most significant problem facing fleets and off-highway applications. We have wonderfully efficient, clean burning diesel engines but we are paying a price for same.
There is a direct relationship between abrasives and wear. This is a documented fact. It is accepted that if we cut our abrasive wear component by half we double the life of high pressure pumps and servo valves. Not to say that there are not other components that can further enhance fuel system life but fuel/fluid cleanliness is certainly, clearly, the number one issue.
With diesel fuel cleanliness being worse than that of ISO cleanliness for garbage truck hydraulic oil, it is rather a no brainer to work to achieve some semblance of jet fuel cleanliness... It is a great starting point!
George Morrison, STLE CLSEdited by: Georgecls

Kennedy---I really enjoy your posts. Would you please answer two simple and direct questions for me? (1) I use Primrose 405 in every tank of diesel. Will this give me maximum lubrication or do I need to use/add another product? (2) I am about to start useing a Filtermag on my OEM fuel filter. What are your thoughts on using magnets on fuel filters?-----It would be great if George would be kind enough to give his thoughts on these two questions!!-----Thanks------Phil





George pretty well took care of the Lubricity question. Personally, I use FPPF Total Power.





As for the Filtermag on the fuel filter, I definitely sugest this, in fact I was the first, if not one of the first to do this. First filter in line would be my suggestion...

Kennedy& George------Thank you both for your qwick and specific answers to my two questions posted above. Your contributions to this forum are wonderful.---------------------Phil

Well guys I hate to say this but the injector ploblem has hit my and it can not be fuel related. I only have 2200 miles on it and they are gone. I think its quality problems with the injectors. I am really pissed off now especially since the wife said I was going to have problems with htis truck and now i am hearing it from her. Has anyone else heard of injector problems this early. I am a machinist so i know quality is very important on injectors.

How do you know you have an injector issue? Do you have fuel in the oil? Is the smell of unburnt fuel ( white smoke ) being emmited from the exhaust?


I do believe that I had read that some one else had troubels early on, but I don't know the mileage for sure. It seems to me it was under 5000 miles. What year truck? 03/04 is it an LB7 or LLY determined by eighth digit in your vin #. # 1 indicates an LB7, # 2 indicates an LLY. I would be curious to know as all new LLY'S are supposed to have the new injectors.


I sure hope this issue gets resolved for you quickly and to your satisfaction.


Fran

This is how I know. It is at the dealer already. I have an 04 LB7. I read on another thread that the 01 thru 04 injector part numbers are the same.
I thought I had a frozen fuel line Wednesday morning and afternoon. It was starving for fuel. Friday was above freezing and I started it and the idle was real ruff, shook the truck, it smoothed out took off had a little lose of power, smoothed out. Then I was getting ready to get on the hyway and was trying to pick up speed and it was dead, backed off the throttle and would only idle at 1800rpm, anymore and the engine almost would die. I limped along to the dealer and barely made it. The engine light came on imediately when i started having the large power lose. They told me Monday they will determine how many are bad and I might get my truck back Thursday. I asked them if they would replace all of them and the service tech told me they replace them only 4 at a time, all on the bad side. I hope they replace all of them. I hope they get it done soon also. It will be to my satisfaction as I deal with the owner of the dealership, known him since my dad bought about a dozen vehicles fron his father over many years.

Bjay177


Sorry to hear thats whats going on. There must be a real issue with some of these injectors being defective ( obviously ).http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif It appears that GM needs to step up to the plate and straighten this out. I am awaiting my new GMC and hope this will not be an issue. I had read somewhere that the injectors for the LLY engines were a different injector than what had been used in the LB7 engines. Hopefully these will be more reliable, but who knows only time will tell. On the plus side they will be easier to be accessed, but other problems may arrise.


I know this doesn't help you, but it makes me wonder when they replace them are they using the same exact injectors that are installed in the truck as new? One would only think so. Or do these injectors come from a different assembly line from BOSCH.


So one would also wonder if there are as many failures with injectors that have been replaced. I also wonder if during the manufacturing process they (BOSCH) have had some type of quality control problem relating to these failures. I guess we may never know. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif


I just needed to vent a little about this................http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif


I sure feel your pain and others who have had to deal with this issue, and hopefully they are all resolved to your satisfaction. It sounds like in your case it will.


Best of luck in the future. Fran

The BOCLE tests (for those requesting emperical documentation) for Primrose 405/409 are as follows:
BOCLE (ASTM D-5001) Results

#2 Diesel fuel .80 Wear Scar Diameter
#2 Diesel fuel treated with Primrose 405/409 .45 Wear Scar Diameter

Modified BOCLE test
Low Sulfur Kerosine (1-D) 1,800 grams untreated, 3,000 grams treated with 405/409
Low Sulfur #2 Diesel 2,200 grams untreated, 3,400 grams treated with 405/409
50/50 Low Sulfur Blend 2,500 grams untreated, 3,900 grams treated with 405/409

George Morrison


Hi George,


I have been looking through the CARB presentations on upcoming diesel fuel standards and came across this presentation.


http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/diesel/041003ap.ppt


The following is from Slide 33 and Slide 34 of the presentation


-----------------------------------------------------------


New Fuel System Technology In U.S. Market
<UL>
<LI>Several engine manufacturers report vehicles with new fuel system technology in U.S. market since 2001/2002
<LI>Vehicles primarily medium duty trucks
<LI>Vehicle must be protected against premature wear to maintain emissions benefits</LI>[/list]





ARB Draft Diesel Fuel Lubricity Concept: Two Tier Approach
<UL>


Protect existing equipment
<UL>
<LI>3,100 gram minimum based on Scuffing Load Ball-on-Cylinder Lubricity Evaluator (SLBOCLE)
<LI>Codify current refinery voluntary practice: consistent with 1994 California Governor’s Task Force recommendation
<LI>Time frame: ASAP </LI>[/list]


Protect new low emissions high pressure fuel injection systems technology
<UL>
<LI>460 micron wear scar (WSD) diameter High Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR)
<LI>Time frame: 2005/2006 (?)</LI>[/list][/list]


---------------------------------------------------------


See previous slides in the presentation for a discussion on the fact that BOCLE and HFRR results do not correlate; We need a wear scar diameter that does not exceed 460 microns in the HFRR test for our trucks- the 3100 gram BOCLE test does not guarantee that this requirement is satisfied. The wear mechanisms modeled in the BOCLE tests do not correlate well with the wear mechanisms that actually occur in our newer high pressure fuel pumps and injectors.


Note on the last slide that HFRR is needed to protect newer equipment. Therefore, you need to come up with EN590 or SAE J2265 test data to show that Primrose will provide adequate lubricity for the fuel injection system on the duramax.


The only two diesel fuel additives that I have seen with published HFRR test results that have been shown to meet the lubricity requirements for our trucks is Stanadyne Performance Formula and Rotella DFA. (Stanadyne Performance Formula shows test results relative to SAE J2265; Rotella DFA shows results relative to EN590) .


Note that the manufacturers and regulators are very aware that currently available diesel fuel probably has insufficient lubricity for proper protection of our truck; Also note

So where do you get these Filter mags? Cost? Are they the same thing that is sold for oil filters? If not, what's the main difference. I have noticed a lot of posts mentioneing $5,400 to have injectors replaced. Why aren't people doing this themselves? Are there lots of special tools involved? I'd buy some tools to save $2000 in labor!

I have noticed a lot of posts mentioneing $5,400 to have injectors replaced. Why aren't people doing this themselves? Are there lots of special tools involved? I'd buy some tools to save $2000 in labor.


Up to this point, the vast majority of the DMAX's out there are still covered under the 5yr/100k mile warranty, so GM foots the bill. There are a few that have exceeded the mileage portion of the warranty. However, in 2005, the 5yr portion of the warranty will start to expire for those that purchased a 2001 model year truck. So things will get interesting. What you mention above will begin to happen.

Without dissecting any potentially bad injectors we do not know what the cause was. 2200 miles IS short term, but if there was sufficient contamination, it could be something stuck. Also quite possible one cracked...





Filtermag on filter with 5,300 miles on my exceptionally clean source fuel. I should add that the Filtermag was added midway through the 5,300 mile service of this filter:





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Z47_Filtermag-OE_fuel.JPG








More discussion here:


http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5274&amp;PN=2


Edited by: Kennedy

JK,


What am I looking at? Are the black ripples on the inside of the filter wall magnetically charged particles?

Yes they are. They are on the dirty side of the filter. I think the magnet does a good job picking up those fine ferrous type metal particles. That's less chance of them getting through the filter and longer filter life.

Thanks for the pic Kennedy. That's impressive in a very bad way!! They are pretty proud of those magnets aren't they? I need to drop off of this forum. It's getting to the point where I can't afford to read it anymore!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

Old Man, you and I think alike on these Filtermag prices, JK, why are they so expensive? J. C. Whitney has one for like $19.95, probably not as powerful, but at that price you could line them uip solid top to bottom of the canister and still spend less money than one Filtermag!