I KNOW THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED BEFORE BUT I CANNT SEEM TO FIND IT WITH THE SEARCH FEATURE. HAS ANYONE HERE TRIED THIS AND WHAT WERE THE RESULTS? IVE SEEN ON THE DODGE SITES WHERE THEY HAVE SEEN SOME DECENT GAINS IN HP AND LOWERING EGT'S WITH WATER INJECTION.

I have also read about it on the TDR. I have only heard of one Duramax running water injection. He was building all his own, not using a kit. There is a place that sells kits, Snow Performance or something like that.

Are you talking about water methanol injection?


That was commonly used on WWII piston engine fighters in what was known as "War Emergency" power settings to prevent detonation during short periods of intentional manifold pressure overboost. Any time that was used, the engines were considered junk and changed out before the next flight. Those types of aircraft used in Unlimited Racing now and running special high octane fuel, about 160, and water methanol injection, can run manifold pressures almost three times the original manufacturers limits, but it's spendy to maintain them.


Even the early Boeing 707 jetliners used it on takeoffs, but I'm wondering if you can achieve enough boost on your Dmax without destroying it, to make it necessary or useful?


Just curious since I've not seen anything about this particular power mod for diesel engines, but then I've not looked at the Dodge sites either.

WISHED I COULD FIND THAT EARLIER THREAD ABOUT THIS. FROM WHAT I REMEMBER SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING ABOUT THE WATER VAPOR DAMAGING THE TURBINE BLADE. IIRC

Theres a member floating around here thats ran meth. Haven't seen him post anything as of late though...........maybe got thirsty.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


From my recolection i think it gives about 30-40hp and 100ft/lbs. Just what i've heard.Edited by: heartbeatcanada

I am new to this forum and still know very little about diesels. But I did work for some time in power generation where we routinely water and steam injected gas turbine engines. We did this for two reasons, one was to lower EGT thus allowing us to inject more fuel and make even more power. This also had the effect of increasing the mass of the air flow across the turbine blades which made additional power. The second reason for water/steam injection was to lower emissions. This helped to reduce NOX. A major componet of air pollution. I know this does not help in your search but does at least confirm that the technology is feasible.

Peantgwr


That thread got lost early on with some update on the server.


heartbeatcanada


You are a little low on your hp numbers for water/methanol injection. 30-120hp with 100-150lb-ft.


surffisherman


You are right about lowered EGTs. How does 300*F and 5psi more boost sound to you. Don't know about the lower emissions thing but does clear up the extra fueling black smoke nicely.

WHO MAKES THE KITS THAT THE DODGE GUYS ARE USING ANYONE KNOW?

snowperformance.net is where most dodge guys i saw were getting theres.

WONDER HOW THIS STUFF WOULD WORK ON A DMAXhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif



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Have you ever had a big race and wanted just 50 more HP? Now you can with NitroBooster – “ chemical supercharging”. NitroBooster is designed to safely increase the horsepower of your Boost Cooler by 30-50HP. It contains just the right amount of nitro methane to increase HP while not creating a lean condition. Benefits include:
1. Safely gives you an instant 30-50 HP.
2. Boosts octane characteristics.
3. Lowers engine combustion temps.

NitroBooster FAQ

1. Why nitro methane? Nitro methane donates oxygen as it is combusted – think of it as “ chemical supercharging”. It has excellent burn characteristics in that it acts as an octane enhancer with most fuels.
2. Why not just add to the fuel tank? Nitro methane is corrosive and needs system parts made from stainless steel, viton etc. adding to a fuel system made out of steel, rubber etc will corrode these parts.
3. Will it mix with water? Methanol? NitroBooster is made to mix well and stay in suspension with water and methanol.
4. What power increase can I expect? A 30-50 HP increase has been consistently demonstrated when used as directed.
5. Is it safe for my engine? NitroBooster is safe when used as directed. Of course, if the amount is increased by putting more than 8 oz per 2-qt reservoir, a lean condition will result. NitroBooster increases the octane of fuel and will reduce the chance of detonation but will cause a lean condition if you use more than directed.</TD></TR></T></TABLE>

Well I don't understand how you can increase the mass of the airflow by injecting water or steam...


If you increase the amount of water in air, i.e. high humidity, it decreases the number of oxygen molecules in that particular volume of air because the oxygen molecules are displaced by the water molecules. That along with temperature are critical factors in determining the performance of aircraft engines and the amount of lift generated by the wings. The combination of actual elevation above sea level, humidity, and air temperature make up what is known as density altitude. The higher the actual altitude, the higher the humidity, the higher the ambient temperature, the higher the aircraft thinks it is, and results in decreased engine performance and lift.


It's my understanding that the reason for injecting the water methanol, or I guess straight water, is to increase the ignition temperature of the fuel to allow for higher rates of compression. We know that if you compress a gas, it will generate heat. So you either have to cool the compressed intake air i.e. intercoolers, or you have to raise the ignition temperature to prevent detonation. If you can do that, you can crank up the intake system either turbocharged or supercharged, to put more air/fuel into the cylinder and compress it more, without it pre-igniting the mixture and thus gain more power.


I could be way off base here, but that's how it was explained to me and follows my training with regard to density altitude and it's affects on aircraft performance.


Thus my question about how could you get enough manifold pressure on a Dmax to need it? At least with currently available mods and parts...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


I'm not trying to be a smart a** here, I'm just really curious now....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

FROM WHAT I GATHER THE WATER MAKES THE AIR CHARGE MORE DENSE, THEREFORE PUTTING MORE AIR IN THE ENGINE.





HOOT YOU BEEN WATER INJECTED ALL THIS TIME OR WHAT??http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

If I understand it right, water mist expands about 600 times when turned into steam. This is way more than air expands when heated. Hence you get more pressure in the combustion chamber... IF you can vaporize it. Problem is, water absorbs ALOTTA heat before it turns to steam effectively "putting out" the fire.


If you've got surplus heat, water can help use it to make power, but if you don't, it will actually reduce power.


With the turbo engines, the mass (and volume, and density) of gases coming out of the cylinder when the exhaust valve opens is greater if you have water that has been turned to steam during the combustion. More velocity and mass equals higher turbine speed.


Just what I've read.

FROM WHAT I REMEBER FROM THE PREVIOUS THREAD SOMEONE SAID THAT THE WATER COULD DAMAGE YOUR TURBINE. ANYONE REMEMBER THAT?

Peanut,


I can't see how that could be a problem except in some really unusual circumstances. But it would depend I think on how fine the water mist is when it's injected into the air flow if I understand what this system is doing.


The turbine jet engines which used this, spin at RPM's less than the Dmax if what I've read is correct. Dmax at about 57k, turbines at about 41k, but they didn't suffer any damage due to the water methanol injection which was put in after the cold or compression section of the engine.


So the water itself should not cause corrosion, but if the water is not atomized enough to allow it to become vapor before it hits the turbo, then it would be just about like sand particles hitting the vanes. That would be on the intake side, I can't imagine anything left big enough to hit the hot side of the turbo.Edited by: Zeeb

WOULDNT YOU WANNA INJECT IT POST TURBO SO YOU WOULDNT DAMAGE THE COMPESSOR TURBINE?

Just a couple of things to clarify. Zeeb has the most accurate description of water or steam injected gas turbine. Air comes into the nose where it run through a 16 stage compressor which boost pressure to around 400 psi. At that point fuel is injected and ignited. a steam injected gas turbine as a gas turbine and steam turbine combined. As far different densities at different altitudes, I know nothing about this. Our tubines never made it in the air. I think a couple of them tried though after seeing the effects of a catastrophic failure.


One note about corrosive effects of the water. We strictly used de-mineralized water and steam for obvious reasons.Edited by: surffisherman

FROM THE LOOKS OF THE PUMP IN THE KIT FROM SNOWPERFORMANCE.COM IT LOOKS REAL SIMULAR TO A COMMON SHUR-FLOW PUMP THAT IS USED IN AGRICULTURE APPLICATIONS (HERBICIDE ETC.) I WONDER HOW BIG OF A NOZZLE ONE WOULD WANT TO GET THE MOST BENEFIT?

PeanutGrwr


Yes, you want to inject post turbo. It's also best injected post intercooler. If you looked a little farther on snow's site he's running 325 &amp; 625 mL nozzles. I don't know about his Nitro Booster.


I've been running water/methanol since last August with great results. I made up my own setup with more safety in mind than the snowperformance kit. I know a few other Duramaxs &amp; Cummins out there running it too.

If the goal is to cool the intake air stream, then the post intercooler does make the most sense and you wouldn't have to deal with any possible problems related to the turbo itself.


It would be interesting to see how fine a mist the system injects. The finer the mist is, the more surface area of the water is exposed to absorb the heat generated by the compression of the intake air.

PeanutGrwr


Yes, you want to inject post turbo. It's also best injected post intercooler. If you looked a little farther on snow's site he's running 325 &amp; 625 mL nozzles. I don't know about his Nitro Booster.


I've been running water/methanol since last August with great results. I made up my own setup with more safety in mind than the snowperformance kit. I know a few other Duramaxs &amp; Cummins out there running it too.





WHAT TYPE OF HP GAINS HAVE YOU SEEN WITH YOUR SETUP??? HOW MUCH LOWER ARE EGT'S?

Pnut,





Don't try and run water/meth with the 215 tuner! Especially if it is stacked, it makes a bad combo!

what makes it a bad combo??? I started on this project awhile back and have most of the parts rounded up for my water injection kit. I want to use it with just water for cooler EGT's for pulling and dragracing.Edited by: mtomac

Water should be fine, but meth is basically like propane and it can cause serious detonation if everything is not right.

Quad,


I don't think Peanut ever said anything about using water methanol, it was a question I asked him about it and whether or not that is what he was talking about.


The thread got a little off target due to some questions I asked about what he had in mind.....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Pnut,





Don't try and run water/meth with the 215 tuner! Especially if it is stacked, it makes a bad combo!





WHAT MAKES IT A BAD COMBO SPECIFICALLY WITH YOUR 215? REFERING TO WATER ONLY. NOT METH

Water should be fine, but meth is basically like propane and it can cause serious detonation if everything is not right.


Read closer Peanut.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif WHAT ABOUT WATER--------READ CLOSER??? HE SAYS THAT IT MAKES A BAD COMBO,


SURE I UNDERSTAND THAT HE SAYS THAT METH MAKES IT MORE LIKE PROPANE. BUT WHY WITH THIS PARTICULAR COMBO?



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Pnut,





Don't try and run water/meth with the 215 tuner! Especially if it is stacked, it makes a bad combo!


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WHAT MAKES IT A BAD COMBO SPECIFICALLY WITH YOUR 215? REFERING TO WATER ONLY. NOT METH

PeanutGrwr


I stated I've seen 300*F lower EGTs and I can slow the EGTs from rising fast. Like Quad said you have to watch the mixture of Methanol as it does lead to detonation. Yes a really fine spray is a good thing too. I've been spraying about .5gpm with boost levels over 8psi.

JAKE DO YOU USE SOME WHAT OF A HIGH PRESSURE AND SMALL ORFICE TO ATOMIZE IT BETTER?

PeanutGrwr


The nozzle I use would keep you cool in that Texas Sun but not leave you soaking wet. I do run a high pressure pump.

HOW MUCH PSI ARE YOU HAVING TO BUILD TO INJECT?

Isnt water 2 parts oxygen and one part hydrogen?

I personally have used the kit from www.aquamist.co.uk (http://www.aquamist.co.uk) on gassers, but I haven't played with water injection on a disel, as the duramax is my first.
I have nothing but good things to say about aquamist as well as water injection when running forced induction. Their site has a TON of usefull information on it, and I'm sure a lot of it would apply to a diesel as well as the gassers they are more commonly run on.
Great site you guys have here as well. I've got TONS of info to sort through and read now on diesel performance.

Isnt water 2 parts oxygen and one part hydrogen?


Other way around, but it's not being broken down into it's component parts here.

The higher the pressure the finer the atomization. Remember you have to overcome the boost of the motor. I 35psi water pump won't overcome the boost from the turbo

For Racing purposes wouldn't a small N2 bottle with a welding regulator work well? Or maybe even a small air tank for refilling tires? Then flow rate could be adjusted by pressure and you wouldn't have to change nozzles unless you wanted to make a big change.Edited by: a64pilot

For Racing purposes wouldn't a small N2 bottle with a welding regulator work well? Or maybe even a small air tank for refilling tires? Then flow rate could be adjusted by pressure and you wouldn't have to change nozzles unless you wanted to make a big change.


ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT WATER INJECTION??? I DONT THINK A WELDING REG WOULD WORK WITH WATER.

Yes, A welding regulator would supply pressurized and regulated air to a tank that had water in it therby pressurizing the water. The regulator would have only air or N2 pass through it not water. The regulator would keep the pressure and flow rate the same until either the air tank was empty or the water tank ran out. Just get a good regulator like a smith or a victor. Was thinking that a welding O2 regulator would be easy to come by, relative inexpensive, and pressure and therefore flow rate would be easily adjustable. A solenoid in the water line could could easily turn the water flow off or on and if you wanted to be sophistacated (sp?) about it you could use a pressure switch to turn the solenoid on at a certain boost pressure.

I dont think you would need to mess with pressurizing the tank, isnt that what the pump is for? You could have a regulator on the pump, also you can adjust by boost, when the pump comes on, you can also have a WOT switch which would help for drag racing to push more water.

White, I was just coming up with a low cost way of proof of concept with parts that the average farmer would probably have lying around the shop. Personally I don't know of a readily available water pump that would be of a high enough pressure. I'm sure their out there. I was envisioning something similar to the garden pump up insect sprayer type of thing. Air pressure on top of liquid in a common tank say. Cheap to try and if you like it, then you can come up with something purely electric if you like.

What would be the point in injecting it after the turbo? Who cares about hot exhaust pipes?


Seems like it would be best done preintercooler too. More chance to let the water vaporize and do its cooling job.


Ive heard it does a great job of cleaning the innerds of the engine too...


Also heard that you would need a pretty big tank of H20 if you really wanted to use it for towing.


Interesting...

Manny, post turbo compressor, pre engine intake. I wouldn't inject it anywhere there was the slight possibility it could accumulate and pass a puddle of it to the engine. Probably couldn't do that if it were injected prior to the aftercooler anyway. Methinks it would be most benifical for racing, not so much for towing or everyday use. I kinda see this primarily for the Banzai, fangs out, hair on fire type. Not the laid back type pulling his tractor around kind of guy.

Ah, I see. Post compressor but pre intake...Makes sense now. Drilling a hole in the plastic tube about 6 inches post air filter wouldnt do much good then...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


I would never do it, but if you want something most other folks dont have, then it is a must!

IM WITH YA NOW A64. BUT I THINK IM GOING TO GO WITH THE PUMP INSTEAD. GONNA MAKE IT BOOST ACTIVATED. A HOBBS BOOST ACTIVATED SWITCH CAME WITH MY BULLYDOG LPG KIT, AND I THINK THAT TYPE OF SWITCH WILL BE JUST RIGHT FOR TURNING ON THE PUMP AT A CERTAIN BOOST LEVEL. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEA WHERE TO GET ANOTHER ONE OF THESE SWITCHES SHORT OF GOING TO BULLYDOG FOR ONE???

THINK 65PSI WOULD BE ENOUGH FOR WHAT IM WANTING???






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<TD bgColor=#b0c4de>OEM# </TD>
<TD>5900-0201</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#b0c4de>Aftermarket</TD>
<TD>5900-0211</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#b0c4de>Description</TD>
<TD>Seamless Shell w/ Electro-Coating. Variable Speed. Multi-Fixture Pump w/ Amp &amp; Current Limiter</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#b0c4de>Features</TD>
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<LI =disc>High Flow (over 5.5 GPM [20.8 Lpm]
<LI =disc>Variable Speed Pump Controlled by Smart Sensor (trade mark sensor)
<LI =disc>High Pressure @ 65 PSI [4.5 BAR]
<LI =disc>No Pressure Switch Needed
<LI =disc>Silent operation at any Flow/Pressure Condition
<LI =disc>No Rapid Cycling
<LI =disc>Seamless Heat Electro-Coated Motor Shell
<LI =disc>5 Chamber Design
<LI =disc>Large Inlet and outlet Valve Passages
<LI =disc>Automatic Voltage Protection
<LI =disc>Current Limiting at 10 Amps Max. </LI>[/list]</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#b0c4de>Voltage</TD>
<TD>12</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#b0c4de>Dimensions</TD>
<TD>9.25” x 5.0” x 4.72”
[235mm] x [127] x [121]</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#b0c4de>Flow Rate</TD>
<TD>5.7 GPM [21.6 LPM]</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#b0c4de>Amps (Max)</TD>
<TD>10</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#b0c4de>Shut-Off Pressure</TD>
<TD>65 PSI [4.5 BAR]</TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE>

65 psi won't work very good.

200+ psi

Yes, Water Injection will clean up the 'innards! I ran it for many years on a 79 Chevy 1/2 ton, Gas Motor, Holley marketed the kit.


It had a vacumn switch, and a temperature sensor that strapped to the upper rad hose. This kept it from putting water into a cold engine. I installed a vac gauge, and marked it where the switch setting was, and it was pretty cool. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gifThe motor would start to ping under load, and I would nudge the pedal down a little more to drop the vacumn and switch on the unit (A basic Windshield washer reservoir &amp; Pump). The pings would cease! It also cleared up a dieseling prob I had, it de carboned the motor, the steam blasted it clean. Winter time I ran a pint of Alcohol in the res, topped up with H2O. Water was "Injected" through a nozzle which fit in the hole I drilled in the top of the air cleaner, in line with the carb primary's.


Kept that truck till it was 10 years old, then bought my 88 gasser. the things we do....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

i read in here that a guy said that water expands 600 times when vaporized try double that the correct number is 1200 times when vaporized i know this because it is something we need to know for firefighting since water puts out fire and vaporizes

i read in here that a guy said that water expands 600 times when vaporized try double that the correct number is 1200 times when vaporized i know this because it is something we need to know for firefighting since water puts out fire and vaporizes


You're right. 1240 times.

so how does that affect cylinder pressure?

I dont really know, but my guess would be that water would cool the already hot combustion temperatures which would expand less, but I dont know if it would be enough to compensate for the water expansion??

Some thoughts based on reading (I've never run water):


You don't want much water to vaporize in the intake tract. It will displace the air and reduce HP. Just like humidity kills power, so will water vapor.


And you don't want to spray water into a "cool" engine. It will absorb the heat and reduce HP.


What it is good for is if you have EXCESSIVE heat. Heat that destroys things and limits HP. By injecting water, you can absorb the extra heat and turn it into HP. But pro-drag motors don't use water. Anything but fuel and air that goes into the cylinder will reduce the ultimate HP possible.


If you are deliberately limiting your HP due to temp, you could use water to dial in more fuel until you once again get at the heat limit. Run more boost, spray more fuel, and use to the water to keep temps under control.


The main thing I've seen it used for has been to make an otherwise "unstreetable" engine streetable. Like a gasser running a turbo/supercharger at 20psi boost. Without the water, it would have to have the boost reduced to run pump gas. Water is cheaper than 115 octane.