JJ's Patented(?) Coolant System Flush [Archive] - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

killerbee

10-20-2005, 04:40 PM

After removing the black 6.6 turbo acoustic resonance hat, I just unbolted the stat housing bolts, and the one behind (wihout pulling the pipe off like JJ said), plus the pipe holddown bolt on the head.

The housing can then be propped up just enough to get the stats out. Use a long driver to pop the rear one. Look for the seal to be left behind however, JJ ran into this, it stuck on the lower housing.

This is a good chance to look at the forward "bypass" stat hole for any possible obstruction. I haven't seen any.

I would suggest anyone doing this procedure, look at you coolant cap. there is a metal vacuum disk normally centered in the bottom of the cap. It is silver colored, only silver colored component. I have found many of these to be defective. The silver disk is the vent feature. If you cannot suck through the end of the cap, by putting your mouth to it and sucking (it will be a forceful suck) you may also have a defective cap. If you recenter that disk with a prod, and can then pull air through it, get rid of it.

The ones that I have found to be a problem, I could not suck through to save my life (save the sarcasm) and some would "pop" if I tried hard, but most just have an issue.

Kendall69

10-20-2005, 04:41 PM

JJ, you be da man!!!!

killerbee

10-20-2005, 04:47 PM

While on this subject, I am seriously considering going to G-05 coolant (a Ford product that has other names as well), a low silicate formula that has proven to resist cavitation much better than our very special dexcool.

I won't suggest anyone to do this, it is a clear warranty issue with GM to go to a different coolant. But I have some old food coloring I need to get rid of. The orange bottle is full.

JJs DuMax

10-20-2005, 04:50 PM

KB, glad you mentioned that turbo hat, mine was loose even before I backed off the clamp. So much for quality control at the factory.

Make sure all your connections are good and tight when you put things back together. I'm suspicious of the OEM coolant caps so I just went ahead and purchased a new one at Autozone (#7064?). Works like a charm! :D JJ :)

Kennedy

10-20-2005, 04:51 PM

So what are we flushing out of a system that is only months old???

swatkins

10-20-2005, 05:04 PM

So what are we flushing out of a system that is only months old???
I think they are going after all the trapped air... And in KB's case some kind of black stuff....

Kennedy

10-20-2005, 05:07 PM

Ooooooooooooooo-kay :confused:

Sediment and junk in the system sux, but a little bit won't make you overheat.

JJs DuMax

10-20-2005, 05:13 PM

So what are we flushing out of a system that is only months old???

JK, I had a considerable amount of very fine sand, some of that black stuff but not a lot. As for what was flushed down the street gutter I couldn't tell you. I will confirm there was considerable residue in my reservoir tank(scale mostly). But after flushing I have no collapsing hose, ECT's are staying in check, no fan engagement while towing heavy except for stop/go stuff. Great results IMHO. :)

Flushing the system apparently worked wonders on my truck, didn't cost that much, and the results appear very promising. I'm dying to make a run to the mountains to "take em on" but with fuel being so expensive Mama JJ would kill me. :eek:

Not to say that we still don't need the other mods, without them my truck wouldn't behave like an LB7. ;) My truck just flat hauls now, no better way to put it. MPG's are up, ECT's are in check, fan is a sleeper, go-pedal is very responsive, JJ be very happy! :D Maybe I had air trapped in the system, or a plugged lower radiator hose, I don't know, but somethings different post-flush! ;)

OK, in the interest of full disclosure OAT's have been in the mid to upper 80's here lately, so some cooling affect would be expected. However, lest we forget, we can overheat these trucks towing heavy into elevations at low OAT's with high RPM's as well. I posted a couple of weeks back that I ran my rig at 80mph in 85*+ temps and ECT's stuck at 208* where previously they would rise/fall from 198-218* with the fan constantly engaging, absolutely no fan was required in controlling ECT's, my truck had never done that before. :confused: On Monday I ran 70mph all day in 85*+ temps, low humidity, A/C running, never any fan engagement. Sumpins up? ;)

The cost of doing this ranges from $0 to $56 if you replace the coolant and install a new reservoir cap. Worth every penny I invested. Later. JJ :)

Kennedy

10-20-2005, 05:28 PM

Hey, if it works, then everyone having heating issues should do it. It would be nice to push the flushed crap through a collection device to see what is collected.

I've seen the black junk (rubber usually) and sediment, but I still can't see how a little bit (teaspoon?) is having major effect. I have seen the rubber junk block stats partly open and such, but that made it run cool.

I'm hoping that I am wrong and it would be great if a simple flush did the trick, but I must remain skeptical. I see a lot of testing going on, but have to question how the variables are being eliminated. It's really tough to do.

I want to add to those openeing up cooling systems: Be sure you rinse things VERY thoroughly with water. If you leave Dexcool exposed to metal and air it can make junk in a hurry...

Kennedy

10-20-2005, 05:48 PM

Rickdlance wrote:

I think the variables on these runs are killing us. I also have had times when the trucks should have overheated, but didn't. I believe a strong headwind helps it along. Maybe fuel quality has something to do with it. I have overheated mine in 50 degree weather also. It was on I-70 westbound east of Denver. It was late at night and raining, but the headwind was about 40 MPH. I could only get the truck to run about 55 mph. The semi's were passing me honking. I have also made the same trip in 85 degree weather without a problem. If the overheating was more predictable it would definately help diagnosis.

Different trucks act differently on different days and different conditions...

JJs DuMax

10-20-2005, 08:27 PM

JK: I want to add to those openeing up cooling systems: Be sure you rinse things VERY thoroughly with water. If you leave Dexcool exposed to metal and air it can make junk in a hurry...

Good advice! The flushing method I posted involves keeping water moving through the system at just about all times, with the coolant going right back in as soon as draining is complete. :exactly:

FWIW, I don't believe the flush alone is providing the benefits I'm realizing with my truck. Moreso the cooling system simply appears to be functioning properly now. The benefits of stack sealing, shrouds, CAI, etc. are really more noticeable now when towing heavy. JJ :)

Kennedy

10-21-2005, 10:57 AM

If a guy wants the junk out a filter would be a good idea. I haven't done this to either of mine, and probably never will but it wouldn't hurt.

JJs DuMax

10-21-2005, 02:56 PM

If a guy wants the junk out a filter would be a good idea. I haven't done this to either of mine, and probably never will but it wouldn't hurt.

The flush is for trucks running high ECT's. My truck had an obstruction of some sort that a filtrer likely wouldn't have removed. Good idea after flushing. JJ :)

killerbee

10-21-2005, 02:59 PM

me three

Kennedy

10-21-2005, 02:59 PM

I can't see what we'd have for an obstruction, especially if you did not find the offending matter but...

JJs DuMax

10-21-2005, 03:44 PM

I can't see what we'd have for an obstruction, especially if you did not find the offending matter but...

Would have been great if a little "coolant turd" had popped out! ):h All I have is an LLY running like an LB7, something is definitely changed for the better. JJ :)

RickDLance

10-21-2005, 11:02 PM

JJ, I for one would like you to do some more towing to verify your results. The weather has cooled and there are other variables we still don't understand. I would hope it would be so simple, but I expect the Overheating is still there.

Could you load your trailer and truck to capacity and drive to the biggest hill you can find. Be sure to take supplies for a month. Where is it the hottest right now with hills?? I will meet you there.:):):)

Kennedy

10-22-2005, 10:07 AM

Too many variables. Call me a pessimist, but I don't think washing out a teaspoon or two of sediment does a lot for the big picture and I can't for the life of me see what could have been plugged...

RickDLance

10-22-2005, 12:25 PM

Maybe the Dex Cool is breaking down after so many overheat cycles??? JJ, keep yours eyes open for that "coolant turd"!:):):)

toytech

10-22-2005, 02:08 PM

At what mileage are you guys seeing this black stuff flushing your coolant at. I have 23k on my truck and was thinking of flushing at 30k.

JJs DuMax

10-22-2005, 11:08 PM

Toytech,

Dexcool last a lot longer than 30k miles if you are going to continue using Dexcool. The black specs haven't been attributed to any specific phenom, but it can clog the tstats if enough is in there. You should be able to check your coolant reservoir, even drain a small sample out of the bottom of the radiator. The flush I'm talking about sticks with Dexcool, for now at least. ;)

Rick, agree with more testing, though if you recall I already did some testing last month when I "nailed" Monteagle just out of Chattanooga. That was an impressive run IMHO. This was one reason I started the post for heavy haulers to see if they considered 230* overheating, I haven't seen any posts that considered that ECT as overheating. :confused:

As a matter of fact with all the success we are having with these mods I'm thinking we need to quit referring to these threads as "Overheating LLY's", moreso LLY's towing heavy with higher ECT's. More fitting IMHO and doesn't scare the wajeebees out of everyone. ;)

JK, I have to agree with you, what are the odds that flushing the system would have such a positive affect on ECT's. I'm at a loss to explain it, but the results are hard to argue with. I've tried everything that previously would have caused my truck to run higher ECT's and engage the fan. I did KB's WOT with O/D disengaged to try and get the fan to cavitate and ECT's to climb, couldn't replicate the previous results. Drove 80mph with 5ver in tow, no fan, ECT's stuck solid, no fluctuating up and down with constant fan engagement like before. It's almost like the mods suddenly kicked in and are doing what they were supposed to. :o:

You know, the more I think about it maybe that little $8 reservoir cap may have been the culprit keeping our mods from effectively doing their job. It appears sporadic and unreliable. If the system isn't pressurized properly the cooling system will not operate properly or efficiently. All I know is I'm not touching my truck, very pleased. JJ :)

idahofox

10-23-2005, 12:31 AM

JK, I have to agree with you, what are the odds that flushing the system would have such a positive affect on ECT's. I'm at a loss to explain it, but the results are hard to argue with. I've tried everything that previously would have caused my truck to run higher ECT's and engage the fan. I did KB's WOT with O/D disengaged to try and get the fan to cavitate and ECT's to climb, couldn't replicate the previous results. Drove 80mph with 5ver in tow, no fan, ECT's stuck solid, no fluctuating up and down with constant fan engagement like before. It's almost like the mods suddenly kicked in and are doing what they were supposed to. :o:

You know, the more I think about it maybe that little $8 reservoir cap may have been the culprit keeping our mods from effectively doing their job. It appears sporadic and unreliable. If the system isn't pressurized properly the cooling system will not operate properly or efficiently. All I know is I'm not touching my truck, very pleased. JJ :)

This may sound like a Broken Record, but;

Entrained Air (Gasses), are the fundamental reasons for the majority of All the OH conditions, period.

A failed system, due component(s) and/or system degradation (broken fan clutch, contaminated coolant) becomes a viable system when the system is Repaired (in theory).

"JJ’s Flush" didn’t fix a problem, He purged his cooling system of Entrained Air, that Fixed a problem. There may have been a shorter method, however, JJ is Happy and he doesn’t OH, what is that Worth ??????

JJ, and others, have replaced the "Pressure Cap", very important factor.

The Dmax cooling system is, by design, dynamically "Self Purging" (of air). The "Dynamics", require that the Air Can Pass Out of the System. The geometry of the LB7 and LLY are identical, So, if the LLY has a problem, as does the LB7. The geometry of our cooling system does not allow for reliable purging of the system. Add a Failed "Pressure Cap" and purging of Entrained Air is PROHIBITED.

JJ has shown that a "Heavy Hauling Dude" (HHD) with a "Clean" cooling system (clear of Air), Works !!!

Lest we loss sight;

JJ improved MPG: Cold air induction.

JJ improved ECT and Fan operation: Nose should, Stack sealing, Air dam, Splash shield, etc. Ooh Oh, Tow Hook Shields.

Lets face it, JJ, Hauls A$$.

FWIW.

idahofox

10-23-2005, 12:35 AM

You know, the more I think about it maybe that little $8 reservoir cap may have been the culprit keeping our mods from effectively doing their job. JJ :)

HELLO GM.

JJs DuMax

10-23-2005, 08:29 AM

Careful Fox, folks are going to think I have you in my back pocket! ):h I just wish it was economically feasible to take a 1000 mile round trip up to some mountains to give the truck a really good workout. I'm fairly certain of the results, but I could post with certainty and without any reservation. I do understand folks skepticism though. We need more intel. :exactly:

BTW, did anyone else notice that carhauler had a good run with his truck after his dealer put his OEM hood back on, replaced the water pump, fan clutch, "FLUSHED THE SYSTEM AND REPLACED THE RESERVOIR CAP"? Hmmmm? :rolleyes:

A few others that have trucks running high ECT's , say(220*+) while towing, or that have constant fan engagement might want to do the flush and change out the cap. Cost you $8 to find out if it is the right prescription for those trucks. ;)

Fox is correct that my flushing method can be shortened. I did an initial flush of the radiator, reservoir tank and hoses with good results, then decided a week later to do the whole system since KB found some crud in his tstats. I actually did more of a double flush by doing the radiator and tank first then doing the block later. ):h

With the mods in place and the stack doing its job this truck is exceptionally fun to drive and eager to work, very fast off the go-pedal, slap some weight behind it and hold on. Lots of low end grunt. At every opportunity I have had to nail er hard towing up hills or grades I've attempted to get ECT's to spike, they'll climb a few degrees, settle, and slowly start to come down, no fan. The fan seems relegated to towing in stop/go traffic, and likely on some long hard grades in high OAT's as well. :confused: JJ :)

killerbee

10-23-2005, 08:34 AM

After we get a few people with reports like JJ and I (Dave is onboard now) maybe we can finally look at a simple improvement. I have come up with a way to mod the vent/degas hose to make it more useful in filling the system.

If I recall, most of the trucks that I have checked that had this problem were 1-2 quarts low on coolant. The missing mass would not be missed much, it's the 1-2 quarts of air that the pump can't handle.

killerbee

10-23-2005, 08:42 AM

...At every opportunity I have had to nail er hard towing up hills or grades I've attempted to get ECT's to spike, they'll climb a few degrees, settle, and slowly start to come down, no fan.

This is my favorite kind of result/statement. From the tests we ran (before this discovery), it seemed like the ststs would open but the enhanced heat exchange from the added flow just wasn't there.

Speculating further, I wonder if the high 220+ underhood temps were messing with the oem cap.

Boyd and I found the cap issue with low coolant on his rig, and will go run his load. We will know on that day if this is a fix or not. His truck would OH if you gave it a bad look. Hopefully more people are taking notice and doing this.

killerbee

10-23-2005, 08:49 AM

The Dmax cooling system is, by design, dynamically "Self Purging" (of air). The "Dynamics", require that the Air Can Pass Out of the System. The geometry of the LB7 and LLY are identical, So, if the LLY has a problem, as does the LB7. The geometry of our cooling system does not allow for reliable purging of the system. Add a Failed "Pressure Cap" and purging of Entrained Air is PROHIBITED.

Well put Fox. The premise of my effort lately.

RDL reported no evidence of cavitation on the 2 pumps he examined. Then again, neither is from an overheater. What I am unclear about, is this: If there were sufficient air to aerate the system, would that likely not show up on the pump? I am thinking along the lines of, it wouldn't, rather, just reduce pump efficiency with a lighter, less dense mixture.

JJ's exuberance is contagious, :cool2:

JJs DuMax

10-23-2005, 08:52 AM

It's my placebo! lol JJ

killerbee

10-23-2005, 09:03 AM

Stop playing with it.

RickDLance

10-23-2005, 09:26 AM

Common guys, lets not get carried away. My 04 made a run out of Needles last month and turned on the DIC 7 times in one day. My son was there last week and it didn't overheat at all. Is it cured??? I didn't do anything!! This problem is too unpredictable to say if adding 1-2 quarts of coolant to replace trapped air has anything to do with it, YET. It can't hurt, but lets not have every Duramax owner in the country do a coolant flush just yet. And as far as the caps, I have been changing them on that 1 truck for almost 2 years. It has had 8 so far to date. Still has a flat hose in the morning. Still hisses and pops open when I remove the cap. As far as carhauler is concerned they did change his fan clutch, which he had stated was working erratically. Also a possibility the newest new radiator has increased capacity. I do not think they changed the water pump. I would say they also replaced the Dex, but I doubt they purged and filled it as good as JJ. He is also strictly going off the factory gauge. He normaly reads his temps on his Attitude. Maybe the dealer did another reflash to alter the gauges?? He will post as soon as he finishes the run he's on, but again too early and too little testing to say for sure.

Also on the stat full open at 230*, I believe that GM would have planned some lead way in their operating temps. I would expect 220 or something would have been what they considered hot. That would leave 10* of stat opening left to get it under control before it reached full open. I hope you guys are onto something. I would still be more likely to believe that the Dex is breaking down under the extreme use in the diesel, and that replacing the coolant gives you a fresh start. Does anybody know if Dex is being used in any other diesels out there??

killerbee

10-23-2005, 09:36 AM

To my knowledge, Dex is the worst thing on the planet for a diesel. That opinion is mostly from an oem engineer that I consult with, that has tested it in controlled environments. It has some lousy real world cavitation and erosion properties. Again, taken from a good source.

Rick, where do you get your caps.? If you have a flat hose, you have a malfunction somewhere.

FYI, most stats open full in a 10-15 degree range. These should be full open at around 210-215-220ish (on the gauge), from my little bit of STOVETOP testing.

RickDLance

10-23-2005, 09:40 AM

The first 2 came from the dealer, the second 2 from Napa, the next two I'm not sure. The last two came from Carquest. Carquest was the cheapest. I could also get the last two to open with the "suck" test. Never checked before then.

killerbee

10-23-2005, 09:46 AM

If only the whole diesel world wasn't asleep on this subject. I can handle everyone going out and making the system work as designed, Rick. I am going out on a limb as much as anyone.

We need people to test this. People who can do the cap replacement, topoff, and go test the result on hot running trucks. But only people that can conclude that they have a bad cap.

This can explain a "variable" or "inconsistent" OH occurrence also. Worth digging into.

killerbee

10-23-2005, 09:47 AM

Rick, if you have a hose that collapses in the presence of a "good" cap, it is the same as the cap not working. If that is the case, I suggest a new hose.

idahofox

10-23-2005, 10:13 AM

Rick, if you have a hose that collapses in the presence of a "good" cap, it is the same as the cap not working. If that is the case, I suggest a new hose.

If the Purge Hose is blocked, as KB found, the cap can't do its job. DEX turd?

FWIW.

Kennedy

10-23-2005, 10:22 AM

Where is the offending foreign matter that blocked this hose?

killerbee

10-23-2005, 10:57 AM

Here (http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?p=722790#post722790)

in my case, all I know is that my vent hose had a blockage. I took out quite a bit of this flake, and I am not even saying IT was the blockage, just that it was blocked. I also replaced a bad cap at the same time. Perhaps, air in line+bad cap=no motive force dynamically

If I had a perfect causal explanation, I would be doing cartwheels. Right now, all I will say is "anomoly"

idahofox

10-23-2005, 11:00 AM

Where is the offending foreign matter that blocked this hose?

Its an empirical turd.

Don’t know where it came from. Don’t know what its made of; however, when you can not blow air from the rad end of the purge hose into the surge tank, you know it is there.

And a collapsed hose Pops to Full when the tank is vented with a Clear purge hose.

Empirical Turd !

FWIW.

killerbee

10-23-2005, 11:03 AM

:funnypost

Mackin

10-23-2005, 11:22 AM

How are you guys determine your getting a 100% 50/50 mix of Dex-cool and water?Can this play a factor in how a simple flush helps the over heating condition a 60/40 split of the mixture?

I'm skeptical myself of the small particles doing much.If you could see my or seen my flush you'd think different I know it's a 01 but there was a whole lot of crap in it

Also has anyone actually tested the coolant temperature effective range and compared with trucks that over heat and those that don't?
Perhaps it's been done and I missed it

JJs DuMax

10-23-2005, 06:19 PM

Before flush: collapsing hose even with cap off?
After flush: Flat hose but instantly pops open when OEM cap untightened;
After flush with new cap: No flat hose, no fan towing, ECT's 10*-20* cooler when working truck hard towing heavy!

Not too hard to digest. ;) JJ :)

carhauler

10-23-2005, 06:45 PM

could this be?? I talked to KB and tested the new cap , autozone did not have one but will tues , I am going to try and get the old one back and see if it checks out bad. I have a hard time thinking I have had a overheating POS for 80 k miles over a 10cent cap. GM is gonna PAY!!!!! I am not saying the problem is cured but its another thing worth carefull research.

JJs DuMax

10-23-2005, 07:32 PM

FWIW I would use a non-OEM cap. Having good results withthe one from Autozone.Mackin, I installed the 50/50 pre-mixed. JJ

TxChristopher

10-24-2005, 10:29 PM

I can tell you that I have physically measured stat opening distances on many dmax stats with digital dial calipers all the way from 180* through 320* (YES 320* NOT 230*) and documented it the entire way including measurements and pictures every 5*

With that said I will also tell you that everything that has been posted about the thermostat opening process and distances they open in this thread and every other thread on the DP that I know of is WRONG. :eek:

Believe what you want folks I am just telling you what I know FOR SURE. :exactly:

.

JJs DuMax

10-24-2005, 11:04 PM

TxC,

You chose to post this on my thread, so my .02 cents worth. I started to PM you, but enough is enough. Your delivery on the post above totally sucked! :o: You are welcome to offer up solid data for us to review and discuss. Please don't zip into a thread, stir the pot by pretty much calling people incompetent or liars, or insinuate they are putting out bad data, then zip your a$$ out of here. :mad: I don't get PO'd with folks too often, but your last post just flat out sucked, BIG TIME! :badidea: Try choosing a different approach, you'll find a much better reception on this end. ;)

Now, exactly what are you saying about 320*? Certainly you aren't saying that's when the tstats fully open, are you? Clarify your statement, offer up your data for analysis. Welcome to participate, but please don't instigate! JJ :)

JJs DuMax

10-25-2005, 09:22 AM

TxC, I started a new thread on tstat operation so all of us can openly discuss this in more detail. However, in that thread I specifically request for you to explain your tstat testing methods and conclusions. :confused:

I would like for this thread to stay focused on the cooling system flushes. Those that have flushed their systems and replaced with non-OEM caps are noting marked improvement in cooling system performance, no flat hoses. My truck is going on 3 weeks without a flat hose, a record! This morning it was 45* outside here, nice and round! I love my LB7, errr LLY! ):h

Some have simply changed out the cap and their trucks are taking on additional coolant very quickly, see FLSTFDave's posts. Logics to me that if the system can take on more coolant there must have been additional space for it in the cooling system. :confused: Should put that argument to rest right there, likely won't though! ):h Mine did the same for a few days, now the cooling system appears fully charged, right at 6 gallons. :exactly:

Personally I still like the flush just to be thorough, well anal! ):h JJ :)

RickDLance

10-25-2005, 09:37 AM

I agree with JJ on the stat thread, TX's post seems a little out of place. Did something get deleted??

I have now changed the caps and done the flush on my last 2 trucks. I have not seen any differance yet. The hoses were not flat this morning, but I'm more interested in the overheating, not the hose.

killerbee

10-25-2005, 09:40 AM

Rick, were those caps you replaced confirmed bad?

Kennedy

10-25-2005, 09:41 AM

RickDLance

10-25-2005, 12:05 PM

I did not test the other caps, but both trucks are/were overheaters. Still unconvinced about how much vacuum it should take to open cap and if that has anything to do with it. My local parts store is trying to get the actual specs for the cap from the manufacturer. Can anyone here get that info??

JJs DuMax

10-25-2005, 01:36 PM

JK, please try to be constructive! ;) We're moving ahead! :)

Rick and others that have, err "had" flattened hoses and replaced your reservoir caps, keep an eye on the coolant, do not allow the system to empty the reservoir tank. Appears fairly consistent that 1 1/2-2 quarts is usually drawn in once the system is able to properly refill. :confused: JJ :)

Kennedy

10-25-2005, 02:03 PM

killerbee

10-25-2005, 02:17 PM

....and bring your placebo filter, JJ. I'll send you mine if you misplaced it.:)

(I meant that in a constructive way)

killerbee

10-25-2005, 02:20 PM

Or better yet, drain one gallon, and see if things are twice as bad as before. Or, drain 4 gallons and see if they are 8x as bad. Stands to reason. How should a cooling system perform with 10% air and little self generated pressure?

JJs DuMax

10-25-2005, 03:41 PM

Now why is that little bird whispering in my ear that even if I towed up a 10% grade at 90mph with no fan engagement some of you'z would still find some a way to cast doubts on those results? :o: Guess you just have to be there to be a believer! :D JJ :)

JJs DuMax

10-25-2005, 03:43 PM

What Rick said...

Agree! But didn't Rick say that before changing out the cap? He no longer has collapsing hoses on those trucks and they are requiring additional coolant. Standby! JJ :)

RickDLance

10-25-2005, 04:39 PM

It has just been 1 day so far. That's what I meant. You guys need to take a pill and let some testing actually get done before you send GM a bill.

Kennedy

10-25-2005, 04:42 PM

It has just been 1 day so far. That's what I meant. You guys need to take a pill and let some testing actually get done before you send GM a bill.

:exactly:

killerbee

10-25-2005, 04:49 PM

Ya gotta laugh.

JJs DuMax

10-25-2005, 05:02 PM

It has just been 1 day so far. That's what I meant. You guys need to take a pill and let some testing actually get done before you send GM a bill.

:exactly: That's what "standby" meant! JJ :)

JJs DuMax

10-27-2005, 11:50 PM

Just checked my initial post and attachment to make sure I told you folks to put a large pan under the drain valve and slowly open it in order not to lose coolant. I saw where someone was posting you would waste a lot of coolant by doing this flush, evidently they didn't bother to read my instructions. You should be able to return all the coolant, after filtering of course, but you may need some additional coolant if your truck has been suffering from a cold flat hose and high ECT's. Cost is still $8, cost of cap. Not for everyone, but those running high ECT's while towing might want to do this just to rule it out for themselves. ;)

Week 3 post flush and new cap, no flat hose, ECT's in check, fan is DOA, MPG's up 25%(with other mods to), truck pulls strong at 24k lbs+ at 80mph in 85*+ OAT's, even with E/J disconnected. Very happy so far! I'm not trying to sell anyone anything, just passing on proven results, NO HYPE! :exactly: JJ :)

RickDLance

10-28-2005, 01:52 AM

Ok, is everyone on the edge of their seats??? After 2 days of towing this is what I've got. This is my wifes truck with the pos flap sealed, the 3" lower valance, Predator on lowest setting, TX air box mod.

Oat reasonably cool at 68*
wind was very mild
load was under 21K
flush and cap was done 1 week ago
No flat upper hose since
coolant level still at rib above fill instructions
highest ECT was 227*

Some will call this a victory and some will call it a defeat. I had hoped for more wind for a real test. I am hauling the same route again in 2 days and will continue to monitor. Personally, I think under the circumstances 227* is too hot.

FLSTFI Dave

10-28-2005, 05:49 AM

Some will call this a victory and some will call it a defeat. I had hoped for more wind for a real test. I am hauling the same route again in 2 days and will continue to monitor. Personally, I think under the circumstances 227* is too hot.

I agree, still to hot considering outside temperature. Now if OAT was 98 and you were pulling a grade and coolant was 227 I would say that was good.

JJs DuMax

10-28-2005, 07:02 AM

Rick,

Grade %, length, speed, fan actuation constant, WOT, splash guard on/off???? You know the drill! On my runs since flush/cap my ECT's run exactly the same temps towing at 50* OAT's as they do at 85* OAT's, compliments of the tstats and possibly a fully charged system. :exactly:

[FONT=Times New Roman]GM: The front thermostat will be fully open when the coolant temperature reaches 95°C (203°F) the rear thermostat will be fully open when the coolant temperature reaches 100°C (212°F).

What was the fan doing during these spikes: cycling on/off; dead; ????

Running higher ECT's isn't unusual with any type of combustion engine when you work em hard. ;) It's the systems inability to keep them in check that results in overheating. 227* isn't there IMHO, heck the pressurized system really isn't fully charged to 15psi until 230*, right? Wrong?

Check your coolant level this morning Rick. JJ :)

killerbee

10-28-2005, 07:04 AM

I am not keeping very good track of your trucks Rick, so I have a Q or 2.

Was this truck, a confirmed bad cap and flat hose truck, before?

And have you assured that all air is out with subsequent topoffs (to the neck) when cold?

You have to be the judge, on the before/after. If 227 was read on a pred, was it a spike or a long deviation? Did it stay above 220 much? 227 is what on your gauge, 215?

Rick, to me 227 is about 7 over the T-stat wide open temps in my truck. My guage shows 10 deg high. Knowing stats are at full flow at 210 (actual), then 220 is about full flow capacity.

Sure, would be nice if oat were higher, but you have to ans2wer the Q for yourself. Were these conditions that would have resulted in higher temps before?

killerbee

10-28-2005, 07:21 AM

Rick, if you get to a point on a vehicle, where you want to try an alternative coolant, I have a suggestion to try.

RickDLance

10-28-2005, 05:26 PM

The hottest it has been on the last 4 trips was 231* and that was 90* OAT and 23K.

idahofox

10-28-2005, 05:47 PM

The hottest it has been on the last 4 trips was 231* and that was 90* OAT and 23K.

Rick,

Is there any shrouds and/or stack sealing on this truck?

RickDLance

10-28-2005, 06:27 PM

Fox, no. KB, I didn't check the caps, but the hose used to be flat. Has not been since. Coolant level still above full. Just for the record the full cold line is the seam. There is an arrow pointing to it. Mine is at the rib above the lettering. I would have bet it would have puked some out by now, but it hasn't. The fan was still coming on at differant temps, but was consistently on over about 213*. Today we are lighter and the wind is blowing harder. Our trucks are definately working harder. I think the wind is a huge variable in the overheating. MPG is also down today because of it. Hopefully when we get into the hills tommorow the wind and the OAT's will give us a good test.

killerbee

10-28-2005, 06:34 PM

...Just for the record the full cold line is the seam. There is an arrow pointing to it.

I haven't seen an arrow, The "seam" on my truck is laterally below the rad top level. There is a cold "line" above the seam.

???

Look forward to future reports.

Kennedy

10-28-2005, 08:27 PM

Look closer. The arrow is there and points to the seam...

idahofox

10-28-2005, 09:10 PM

Look closer. The arrow is there and points to the seam...

Shuck's, thats an assembly mark ! Helps them puNt it togather in Detroit (or wherever).

idahofox

10-28-2005, 09:13 PM

There is a cold "line" above the seam.

At least an Inch, above the seam, (assembly mark).

webecrusin'

10-28-2005, 09:41 PM

At least an Inch, above the seam, (assembly mark).

Mine came from the factory and still maintains a cold level of right at the words Full Cold (i.e. the level is at the top of that arrow). I always thought the mark about an inch above the seam was the Full Hot line. Don't tell me I'm going to have to read a manual!

RickDLance

10-28-2005, 09:58 PM

What's a manual???

JJs DuMax

10-28-2005, 10:04 PM

Hey Rick,

Glad to see you are on. Nice speaking with you earlier this evening. I was going to share the additional intel we discussed, i.e. that run was at 78mph in 5th gear up a 3 mile grade. Also, no stack seal or shrouds with fan engaged and ECT's rising: CLASSIC RECIRC!

GM discusses stack recirc in that article someone posted earlier, I'll find that portion and paste it for others to read. Recirc was a theory that several on the forum didn't believe possible, GM believes it.

Rick, you might check the coolant in the morning and fill the neck to the top and see if the truck takes the additional coolant. My reservoir always appeared full when it wasn't. Back the cap off slowly to see if there is any pressure. I would love to see your results if you stuffed some tin foil on each side of the CAC between the lights and A/C condensor lines. Splash guard off as well. JJ

idahofox

10-28-2005, 10:05 PM

An Inch in this system, is a New World.

JJs DuMax

10-28-2005, 10:18 PM

Here's that intel: Air Baffles and Seals
The cooling system uses deflectors, air baffles and air seals to increase cooling system capability. Deflectors are installed under the vehicle to redirect airflow beneath the vehicle and through the radiator to increase engine cooling. Air baffles are also used to direct airflow through the radiator and increase cooling capability. Air seals prevent air from bypassing the radiator and A/C condenser, and prevent recirculation of hot air for better hot weather cooling and A/C condenser performance.

Ford and Dodge do a pretty good job of closing off the stack, GM cut every corner possible, a total joke IMHO. JJ

idahofox

10-28-2005, 10:37 PM

Does that mean we have to do it All Again ????

Thanks JJ. LOL.

GM couldn't find any Red Silicon ?

JJs DuMax

10-28-2005, 10:49 PM

Fox,

I'm not touching my truck, OUTFREAKEN STANDING performance right now. I just remembered there were several naysayers out there that tried to debunk this theory, along with most others that have been tested and worked.

Gotta go drive around the block, need to make sure my trucks still not overheating! lol

Rick will love this: I'm thinking of a poll to find out who has changed their caps and had positive, negative, or neutral results. So far folks appear to be having good success with this $8 mod. Though I still think a good flush may be in order for those that have ran very high ECT's, potentially lots of crud or debris, I could have filled a small shovel with the casting sand I had. Later. JJ

Kennedy

10-29-2005, 12:25 AM

It's not the hot season any more though is it? Let's see what mid summer brings.

JJs DuMax

10-29-2005, 07:42 AM

True, true! :( We only have a few areas in the country where OAT's are still in the 90's++, dry to. Folks like Louis that live in the Arizona and New Mexico area, or folks like carhauler and Rick will likely be the only folks that can do much realistic testing for the next few weeks. :exactly:

Lest we forget though, there are numerous instances of folks overheating at OAT's in the 50* range towing heavy into elevations. Overheating isn't relegated only to high OAT's. Likely those that don't tow heavy will find they won't spike as high of ECT's during cooler weather. Amazing what a blast of cold air does for these trucks, both for IAT's, ECT's and EGT's. ;)

JK, I'm going to make a conscious effort to tone my posts back and won't use the "driving around the block" statement again. IMHO we need to get back to "Just the facts" and can these barbs on this forum. Others may think this is the norm here on the forum, I'm concerned it may degrade the quality of discussion, morale, and the ability to get things done here on the DP. ;)

I'm not alone here, several of us need to set an example that others will follow. Sorry for the recent cheap shots, let's move forward. JJ :)

FLSTFI Dave

10-29-2005, 09:22 AM

It's not the hot season any more though is it? Let's see what mid summer brings.

I agree its not hot. That is why I have yet to state it has fixed my truck. The 8 dollar autozone cap does vent and allows a vacuum. My factory one did not. The day after adding the cap I had to add two quarts of coolant. Hose has not collapsed since. Coolant gage now is not permantaly stuck on 210 or above.

Last time I got over 235 coolant it was 71 out side and a flat interstate pulling 12000 pounds. First day I get in the 70's I will hook up the trailer and drive the same route. I think it will do better but will not state it does untill I see it. Even if it does do better I will not believe it is totally fixed untill I can pull a 7% grade in 95 plus weather with 12000 pounds in tow and stay under 230 coolant.

However 2 quarts low in a cooling system means the system was not operating at peak efficiency.

RickDLance

10-29-2005, 09:52 AM

Maybe a better reccomondation is what Dave did. Check the cap. If it is thought to be defective, change it. Monitor coolant level. Post results. That would tell us for sure if the cap is allowing more coolant into the system. Just be sure to know where full is, or make a mark where the level is beforehand.

killerbee

10-29-2005, 02:29 PM

If you were not cool on dexcool read this. (http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/CPM-52-DEXArticle-Excerpt.pdf) Very long article

"Entrained air? A failed pressure cap could allow air to
enter and remain in a cooling system. Maybe DEX-COOL's
inhibition chemistry is unable to cope with large amounts
of entrained air, resulting in severe component corrosion,
contamination and eventual fouling of the entire system."

idahofox

10-29-2005, 03:05 PM

...Just for the record the full cold line is the seam. There is an arrow pointing to it. Mine is at the rib above the lettering. I would have bet it would have puked some out by now, but it hasn't...

Helms manual '03

Page 6-1357;" Draining and Filling Cooling System......

Step 21. Top off the coolant, as necessary, to 1/2 inch above FULL COLD mark on the surge tank. "

That happens to be, The molded (raised) horizontal slash, on the Upper half of surge tank and a Full inch or more above the Seam.

FWIW.

RickDLance

10-29-2005, 03:17 PM

webecrusin'

10-29-2005, 03:30 PM

Helms manual '03

Page 6-1357;" Draining and Filling Cooling System......

Step 21. Top off the coolant, as necessary, to 1/2 inch above FULL COLD mark on the surge tank. "

That happens to be, The molded (raised) horizontal slash, on the Upper half of surge tank and a Full inch or more above the Seam.

FWIW.

OK you went and made me do it; I read the manual. Neither the User's Manual or the Shop Manual are much help, but I have drawn some conclusions. My 2002 shop manual (from former gasser, but I read the diesel part for these instructions) reads the same as the 2003 quote above; the catch is, the picture on the 2002 shows the Full Cold arrow about half an inch below the seam. This bottom lines those instructions to say fill to the seam.

After reading the 2002 manual, I am convinced that the 2005 tank means for that arrow pointing to the seam to be the Full Cold mark. It sounds like the shop manual expects that only an additional half inch of fluid will be sucked into the radiator after a deluxe JJ flush. Bear in mind, these are not top off instructions, they are instructions that are part of a drain and refill.

idahofox

10-29-2005, 03:38 PM

After all the heated discussion on where full is I broke the "seal" on my owners manual. :):)The picture in there leads me to believe that the protrution above the lettering is the full cold mark. I originaly thought it was the arrow on the tank. Can someone scan and post this please. We still need to note before and after levels. My extra 2 quarts is in the tank, not the motor, as my level was at the seem before.

The pic is from diesel supplement '03, page 5-27. Remember this is the COLD line.

Should be 1/2 inch Above this line.

When the engine is cold, 2 qts of coolant = 2 qts of Entrained air.

FWIW.

RickDLance

10-29-2005, 03:56 PM

21 minutes, not bad fox.

idahofox

10-29-2005, 04:07 PM

21 minutes, not bad fox.

15 to find the manual.

killerbee

10-29-2005, 08:13 PM

Thanks Fox

Imagine that.

killerbee

10-29-2005, 09:00 PM

My extra 2 quarts is in the tank, not the motor, as my level was at the seem before.

If you are certain of a functioning cap, and no line clogs,

then you probably did not have a bad cap before. I would not look to this issue to help you. I will assume you have checked the new cap orally. Be sure that the overflow hose is not blocked either, that's the source of vacuum relief.

killerbee

10-29-2005, 09:03 PM

If you were not cool on dexcool read this. (http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/CPM-52-DEXArticle-Excerpt.pdf)Very long article

"Entrained air? A failed pressure cap could allow air to
enter and remain in a cooling system. Maybe DEX-COOL's
inhibition chemistry is unable to cope with large amounts
of entrained air, resulting in severe component corrosion,
contamination and eventual fouling of the entire system."

no comments on this? I figured someone sharp would have correlated Dex lawsuits with defective caps by now.

The same caps are used in all the vehicles in these class action gems!

JJs DuMax

10-29-2005, 10:19 PM

Fox, good intel, my system is right at that mark when cold.

I'm not sure I understand Rick's post. After replacing the cap he added two quarts of coolant to the reservoir tank, but doesn't believe it ended up in the cooling system? Did I miss something? JJ

Durabill

10-29-2005, 10:57 PM

killerbee

10-29-2005, 11:11 PM

JJ ,

If the coolant is a hair below the half mark (mold line) then it is possible to add right at 2 quarts to the degas by filling to the neck. Rick doesn't think any of it has dropped. If it doesn't go into the system after a few miles, then IMO there was never a cap issue, or entrained air.

To verify there is no air, I'd make this suggestion. In the a.m., pull the cap watching for a drop in coolant level. If no drop, replace the cap. Pull the vent hose off the rad, and look for a stream out the rad. No stream=air, look for blockage or cap to answer why the coolant isn't dropping into the system. If there is a stream, I'd say it was topped.

JJs DuMax

10-30-2005, 07:17 AM

KB,

I did the small upper hose take-off a couple of weeks ago after flushing to make sure there was no air, all coolant. I think the system is fully charged. Still no flat nose. JJ

idahofox

10-30-2005, 09:47 AM

My dealer tells me they have a machine to flush the system and filter the Coolent. They claim it's as good as replacing with new coolant. Would this be a good thing to do every 30,000 miles or so, along with a new cap, or would this be a waste of money? Has anyone tried this?

Filtering will not renew the ChemPac.

Heat and air will change the chemistry of the coolant over time.

Cleans the coolant but not as good as New Coolant.

IMO.

killerbee

10-30-2005, 10:26 AM

Very true. If anyone has been running a lot of air, it would be wise, to flush and replace. Dex has very poor staying power with respect to the additives (a critical part).

You can get pH strips for this coolant. Dex is designed to run slightly basic, about 8.0-9.0. If it reads under 7.0 dump it immediately. this is very likely if anyone recently made a discovery of significant amount of trapped air. If the pH buffers are depleted, likely the corrosion inhibitors are also.

SteveNorCal

10-30-2005, 10:38 AM

Not to hyjack, but does anyone know what the shelf life is for Dex? (I've got a few gallons been sitting on the shelf for a while.)

idahofox

10-30-2005, 01:00 PM

Not to hyjack, but does anyone know what the shelf life is for Dex? (I've got a few gallons been sitting on the shelf for a while.)

Opinion but, if the cap is never cracked, I would say Years. Maybe five.

Just a best guess.

carhauler

10-30-2005, 01:31 PM

I just took another 1000 trip. the hill I always OH on ran up the hill WOT AC on 18000 lbs 82 to 88 degress , truck got to 219 most of the way , 221 at the top , cooled down with a few miles .
ran out of PHX west on 10 , 25000 lbs 75 Mph fan ran on and off would get to 214 then drop to 198 and so on and so on all the way to Indio.
Left indio East up hill at 22000lbs, put the splash shield back close to stock position ( I did not have all the stock bolts ) , truck immediatly went to 235 then 240 and up , crested the hill at 248 , went in the rest area and moved the shield back down. temps are now back to 200 to 210 cruising ,when they climb the fan comes on and brings it down quickly. I know this truck well , the overheating IS NOT CURED, controlled but will be back in summer , where the louvered hood and all other mods will be necc to avoid running hot all the time when loaded.The new fan clutch still becomes lazy and will wait to 223 or so to engage and will work harder to cool it down , but will cool it even on a hill with the splash mod. I still have never had a collasped hose , the coolant level has stayed overfilled since I add the day KB and I talked last week about levels in the tank. I topped once and added a splash the next day. Rick, save a place on that wall for me!!!
Truck Mods.Now
Alum Rad
splash spaced down
trans cooler moved down ( this does not effect OH +or - I believe makes the fan work better)
Stock hood back on
(new items) fan clutch/coolant bottle/ autozone cap/ coolant flush and fill
several lbs. of PITA

killerbee

10-30-2005, 04:01 PM

Dog!

Can't believe you didn't stop in.

carhauler

10-30-2005, 04:07 PM

KB , I know!! , I had to meet a driver in Indio and then get back up here to Vegas with a SEMA show car , Did 1150 miles from 10:30 Fri Am to 3Pm yesterday back here to deliver , I may be down again next week with out a show scedule. Im going out to change fuel filter ,1093's again and might as well do oil and the rest and check all else.

SteveNorCal

10-30-2005, 07:21 PM

Opinion but, if the cap is never cracked, I would say Years. Maybe five.

Just a best guess.

THANKS for the reply Fox!!

JJs DuMax

10-30-2005, 08:00 PM

carhauler, no stack seal or shrouds right? Keep an eye on your coolant level, interesting on that second run after running such high temps that the ECT's came down considerably, or were you on flat ground. 5k lbs heavier and lower ECT's, makes me wonder. That sporadic fan engagement sure sounds like what I had before stack sealing/shrouds and 3" OEM air dam extension. Oh, and tow hook mods! lol I really do believe plugging the tow hook openings keeps a lot of +P from entering the fan shroud/splash guard area. So far I'm the only one that has towed at 24k lbs + in 85*+ at 80mph with absolutely no fan and ECT's stuck at 201*-203*, did I mention no fan?

I am so anxious to find a long grade to nail to see what my truck will do, both to prove to myself that my truck can get er' done, and to silence some of the cynics. I'm heading to Greensborough next week, if there are any decent grades within reason I'll take a little detour.

Lest we forget the mods I have done to my truck not only address ECT's but Ally temps, CAC temps, IAT's..... The flush and cap just seem to have been the final touch this truck needed. I know, PLACEBO! Right! wink wink lol JJ

killerbee

10-30-2005, 08:06 PM

Carhauler, remind me, what rad is that now?

Ever track down the old one, and weigh it?

carhauler

10-30-2005, 09:09 PM

KB , I have the Ron Davis Alum Rad , I have no idea if the old rad is around still , I can check with the dealer , I am going to go nuts trying to get a combo that works , I also can't figure out why the fan will consistently pull the temp down now, but MUST have the splash mod to do that. JJ, I Have NO stack seals or other mods in place except the trans cooler dropped down and the alum rad, there seem to be no difference with the caps. I never have seen the "famous tow hook mod , is there pictures or just taped up? , I will get the spoiler next week but I also am going to make some demands on the dealer to submit to GM , I can use the truck now but since they don't condone ANY of the fixes I am going to try and force them into doing something.

killerbee

10-30-2005, 09:22 PM

... there seem to be no difference with the caps. ..

what makes you say this? Why did you replace it?

I know i should know the answers, you probably have told me already.

carhauler

10-30-2005, 09:33 PM

I replaced it on a "Just cause" basis , the new one is ok , the new "old one is OK and the one the dealer relaced checked OK ( In front of me) so I just am going for the gold.

JJs DuMax

10-30-2005, 09:42 PM

carhauler, mucho attaboys for your willingness to get er' done!

Before stack seal/shrouds my fan was sporadic, sometimes showing up for the dance, sometimes not. I had these mods in place on my last run to Tennessee up Monteagle and had erratic fan engagement, saw ECT's up to 230*. Since flush/refill and cap it just seems the stack is shedding heat much better, absolutely no fan engagement when towing with the exception of stopping and starting to move again, for about 5 seconds. ECT's now stay in check without fan engagement, that's 1500 miles of towing by the way.

Tow hook mods are part of the frontal seal with shrouds, 3" air dam extension, and slotted splash guard. Lest I forget TxC's CAI. Taping them up will do for your testing, slot the splash guard down in the rear like JK posted. Good luck! JJ

JJs DuMax

10-31-2005, 09:29 AM

carhauler (Fred) and I had a conversation about his truck last night. Good discussion to. carhauler doesn't have any shrouds or stack seal, the POS flap has pretty much been cut up with the mod he did by moving the tranny cooler down lower. I suspect he is getting little, if any flow across the stack, explains the erratic fan engagement. Been there, done that! ;) Our past experience with the splash guard before shrouds/sealing showed improvement by removing the splash guard. After shrouds/sealing it may not be quite as effective, jury is still out on that though. ;)

carhauler also doesn't have a true CAI, his dealer put the 6.0 airbox on his truck. He keeps pegging the air filter minder and is using a K&N oiled filter: restriction. I suggested he put the OEM back in for now. When he's towing heavy and the fan engages his truck is likely ingesting underhood hot air, stack is dead, fan likely recircing more underhood hot air than pulling through the stack. I suggested he contact TxC for his CAI mod, I like its simplicity and the fact it uses the OEM airbox. Fred is going to check with his dealer to see if they still have the OEM air box. ;)

Shrouds/sealing is another matter. The standard set of KB shrouds won't work for the bottom portion since the tranny lines are now in a different location. KB would have to make a custom set for carhaulers truck. He could fabricate something out of some heavy duty cardboard and tape it in really tight to do some testing. Just hope it doesn't rain. ):h

He has done his own mod to the splash guard, sounds like it was effective on his runs, just needs an opening at the rear for a venturi effect. Throw a 3" OEM air dam extension on that bad boy, seal up the tow hook openings and I'll bet you "a dime to a donut" his truck runs like a different beast altogether. :exactly:

Talking with carhauler sure opened up my eyes, much like talking with Rick did on Friday, I had no idea he was pulling those hills at 78mph. We need all the intel on the table when posting ECT runs folks. The higher the speed the higher the ECT's, ALWAYS! OK, check that, Got Juice's "vacuum cleaner" on wheels may be the only exception! ;) Good discussion. JJ :)

killerbee

10-31-2005, 09:46 AM

D Lafleur

10-31-2005, 09:52 AM

as Fred has repeatedly said, he will not do a mod that isn't dealer endorsed. He needs an attorney

That is ashame, it appears most of the stealers dont even bother checking for proper fluid level.

For the record, I am the son of a retired GM mechanic, you dont want to get the old man started on todays "mechanics".

I often hear quotes "Parts changers".

JJs DuMax

10-31-2005, 09:58 AM

as Fred has repeatedly said, he will not do a mod that isn't dealer endorsed. He needs an attorney

i would be willing to donate the entire cooling line for the effort, including made to fit shrouds, but I can't get him on board.

Yes I recall that as well. Not wanting to speak for carhauler on this, but it sounded like he was going to discuss trying some of these mods with his dealership since all their attempts to date haven't worked. Very gracious offer KB, hopefully carhauler will take you up on it. I encouraged him to at least try the CAI and stack sealing mods at a minimum. ;) Even a ghetto stack sealing like we started with should yield some positive results. JJ :)

JJs DuMax

11-02-2005, 09:25 AM

That is ashame, it appears most of the stealers dont even bother checking for proper fluid level.

For the record, I am the son of a retired GM mechanic, you dont want to get the old man started on todays "mechanics".

I often hear quotes "Parts changers".

Unfortunately many of the really talented mechanics either open up their own shops or work in independent shops versus playing the dealer game. I am not saying there are not good mechanics at the dealerships, I have a couple at a local dealership that know their stuff. Just don't assume they will be working on your truck for simple jobs like flush/fills. Do you think they are going to pay a "Master Mechanic" to flush/fill your cooling system, WRONG! :o:

Everyone should be checking their reservoir levels and caps to ensure they are operating properly. Flat hose is a dead ringer that the cap needs to be replaced. Keep track of fluid levels after changing. If after installing a properly operating cap you still have a flat hose a system flush may be in order. Unfortunately I did the flush assuming the NAPA cap was doing the job, it wasn't, so I can't be certain that the flush did the job or the AZ cap. It did end up costing me about $48 since I purchased new coolant, insurance since my Dexcool had gotten hot several times. I do know that for over 4 weeks I haven't had a flat hose, ECT's stay in check towing, and the fan is DOA! :)

On another thread it is mentioned that GM advises to overfill the reservoir tank to the full hot level. I don't believe we have a full hot mark, someone check that. Just fill the fill tube to the brim and put a properly operating cap on. DO THIS WHEN THE TRUCK IS COLD! :exactly:

There are numerous LB7's that hit 230* just like the LLY's on long sustained climbs with heavy loads. The LB7 owners should check their systems as well. JJ :)

FLSTFI Dave

11-02-2005, 10:07 AM

There are numerous LB7's that hit 230* just like the LLY's on long sustained climbs with heavy loads. The LB7 owners should check their systems as well. JJ :)

My 01 LB7 never ever went over 215 engine coolant. That was at a gross weight of 22,000 pounds. I have pulled several long grades with that truck such as lovland pass, Fancy gap, Mount Eagle, Saluida and so on in 95 plus OATs.

My LLY on the other hand hits 235 grossing 11000 pounds on flat roads in 95 plus weather.

JJs DuMax

11-02-2005, 10:26 AM

My 01 LB7 never ever went over 215 engine coolant. That was at a gross weight of 22,000 pounds. I have pulled several long grades with that truck such as lovland pass, Fancy gap, Mount Eagle, Saluida and so on in 95 plus OATs.

My LLY on the other hand hits 235 grossing 11000 pounds on flat roads in 95 plus weather.

Dave, we're not disagreeing :D , "numerous", not all! The LB7 doesn't have the same demands on it as the LLY has which is the point I was trying to make. But there are LB7's out there that posted ECT's of 230* and even overheating. :exactly: Chillin'! ;) JJ :)

webecrusin'

11-02-2005, 12:46 PM

On another thread it is mentioned that GM advises to overfill the reservoir tank to the full hot level. I don't believe we have a full hot mark, someone check that. Just fill the fill tube to the brim and put a properly operating cap on. DO THIS WHEN THE TRUCK IS COLD! :exactly:
JJ :)

On a drain and refil, GM says fill 1/2 inch above Full Cold. I think the Full Hot is the Horizontal molded line about an inch above the seam. I think the Full Cold is on the seam (as indicated by the arrow pointing down from the words Full Cold). It would seem these tanks should be better marked, so you know what you are seeing when you look at them???

JJs DuMax

11-02-2005, 12:50 PM

KB keeps preaching to me that we can't overfill these systems. I'm adding coolant tonight right up to the top of the fill tube. I'm taping a paper towel on the end of the overflow hose to see if it gets wet with coolant while towing the 5ver.

I have a PH meter, I'm also going to check the PH of my coolant, both old and new, to see what range they are in. Will advise. JJ :)

killerbee

11-02-2005, 01:23 PM

On a drain and refil, GM says fill 1/2 inch above Full Cold. I think the Full Hot is the Horizontal molded line about an inch above the seam. I think the Full Cold is on the seam (as indicated by the arrow pointing down from the words Full Cold). It would seem these tanks should be better marked, so you know what you are seeing when you look at them???

Incorrect. This is covered clearly in two areas of you LLY DIESEL SUPPLEMENT. P 5-30 and p 5-35

DO NOT refer to the owners manual. (gas)

I agree, poor markings.

Reward: I will give $100 to the first person who can fill his degas above the "COLD FILL mark", not over the neck.

(excluding troublemakers)

http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10548&d=1130614670

killerbee

11-02-2005, 01:48 PM

Just a quick clarification, the gas vehicle does not utilize a degas bottle. It looks very much like ours, but can not function the same way. Look at the location of the hoses.

killerbee

11-02-2005, 05:05 PM

Reward: I will give $100 to the first person who can fill his degas above the "COLD FILL mark"...

What???? (in my best JJ) "8,853 views and no posts?"

Can there be no one who can simply overfill the degas bottle for $100? I'm not asking for world peace here! Batman and Robin, where are you?

TxChristopher

11-02-2005, 05:38 PM

Since I am not a troublemaker, what constitutes proof?

Pick me pick me! I know how!

.

killerbee

11-02-2005, 05:54 PM

hehehe

The "Riddler"

I am too old for this

TxChristopher

11-02-2005, 06:01 PM

"I'll take degas total fill for $100, Alex"

Am I allowed to help other takers?

.

killerbee

11-02-2005, 06:22 PM

C'mon Mr Wizard. What? You want me to guess the first word??

Adding coolant to the degas, how can you fill it past the "COLD FILL mark" shown in the manual?

If you have something that will make this a learning experience (for those that have to read it), I'll double down, and donate the second hundred to this forum (decent proposal).

...and yes you are a troublemaker (we both are at times), but I can't help myself.

jholly

11-02-2005, 07:09 PM

webecrusin'

11-02-2005, 07:58 PM

Incorrect. This is covered clearly in two areas of you LLY DIESEL SUPPLEMENT. P 5-30 and p 5-35

DO NOT refer to the owners manual. (gas)

I agree, poor markings.

Reward: I will give $100 to the first person who can fill his degas above the "COLD FILL mark", not over the neck.

(excluding troublemakers)

http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10548&d=1130614670

First of all Bee, my statement was "I think"..... I am the expert on what I think and your statement implying that I cannot even correctly state what I think is incorrect. :rant:

Now as to your justification as to why I should change what I think: I am unconvinced. The cheezy arrow on your picture and my diesel supplement don't trump my 2002 shop manual (in my opinion) where it shows the arrow on my our tank points to the Full Cold mark (the seam). Since my truck came with the level a full half inch above the Full Cold mark (as defined by my 2002 shop manual) and still maintains that level, I would be happy to accept your Reward check.

PS - If you are correct in both your assertion of where the Full Cold mark is and that it can't be filled to that level, would you classify that as a design issue or a documentation issue???

killerbee

11-02-2005, 08:20 PM

You make good points (manner aside)

I didn't come up with the photo, GM did, I don't own it.

I have questioned the same things you have.

I looked at it, and the text, and came to my conclusion, I leave it open to debate. I worked in the aircraft mfr industry where these kinds of mistakes can happen. The gas manual shows an arrow on the seam (different container also). The diesel, shows the arrow intentionally placed elsewhere, and is what I interpreted as "COLD LEVEL mark". Nothing else was mentioned in the lit that would suggest what the big white arrow is.

BTW, Nobody is trying to run your brain??? Not intended to sound that way.

hoot

11-02-2005, 08:31 PM

Don't some vehicles have hoses with wire in them to keep them from collapsing?

Maybe it's just cheap hose.

I noticed when my head gasket issue popped up that you can't fill the tank to the top because there are molded chambers hanging from the top.

killerbee

11-02-2005, 08:39 PM

If you are correct in both your assertion of where the Full Cold mark is and that it can't be filled to that level, would you classify that as a design issue or a documentation issue???

Neither. Not an issue at all.

TxChristopher

11-02-2005, 11:40 PM

Come on guys! I went to a birthday party and got back late and NOBODY had this done?????? Ok, since ya'll won't step up to the plate, here we go, before and after:

Oilbrnr

11-03-2005, 12:13 AM

TxC that is SO Photoshop'd!!

:p:

TxChristopher

11-03-2005, 12:29 AM

Don't make that bet.

I just went outside with a flashlight and took a video of it. The video is being uploaded to the new DP video section.

Like I said, send my $100 via paypal to TxChristopher@tmail.com and contact Nick for his $100 for the DP.

By the way, the pic in the supplement says nothing about that arrow pointing to the fill line, for all we know that arrow is pointing to the tank referenced by the text.

Video HERE:

http://video.dieselplace.com/player.aspx?fileid=1D024556-5C72-44E6-8E28-20157E8A9886

.

TxChristopher

11-03-2005, 01:41 AM

hoot

11-03-2005, 05:36 AM

When Eric (dmaxallitech) did my engine work, he used a tool that attaches to the cap. I draws a vacuum in the entire system than there's a valve that lets coolant/water in. Supposed to eliminate air pockets.

TxChristopher

11-03-2005, 07:15 AM

Look here for the VIDEO of the full degas container on my truck:

http://thumbs.streetfire.net/1D024556-5C72-44E6-8E28-20157E8A9886.jpg (http://video.dieselplace.com/Player.aspx?fileid=1D024556-5C72-44E6-8E28-20157E8A9886) Click here to see Video of FULL degas bottle! (http://video.dieselplace.com/Player.aspx?fileid=1D024556-5C72-44E6-8E28-20157E8A9886)

The DP thanks you for your continued financial support! :D Now off to check my paypal balance .. . .. ..

:muahaha: :lol: :grd:

.

TxChristopher

11-03-2005, 04:41 PM

Maybe there is trouble finding the thread since it slipped so far down. Lets raise this vessel to the top! :ro)

http://thumbs.streetfire.net/1D024556-5C72-44E6-8E28-20157E8A9886.jpg (http://video.dieselplace.com/Player.aspx?fileid=1D024556-5C72-44E6-8E28-20157E8A9886) Click here to see Video of FULL degas bottle! (http://video.dieselplace.com/Player.aspx?fileid=1D024556-5C72-44E6-8E28-20157E8A9886)

keham

11-03-2005, 11:54 PM

swatkins

11-04-2005, 12:22 AM

keham

11-04-2005, 05:34 AM

swatkins

Have read every thread. Including the archived ones. that is what is sad about the whole thing.

letting ego's get in their way. Despite repeat warnings from what I seen.

Darn shame too. especially because I can no longer built stuff and hard to buy from kids. anyway his constant sniping turned me off.

TxChristopher

11-04-2005, 07:14 AM

can"t see the video.
Is it from start to Finnish? Time stamped showing it being filled. The normal way. anything can be filled to the brim. But i bet not by the way it is described in the book. Tx this hate you seem to have for KB is getting old. Being a new owner here and having read all this It is getting old. I would have thought, If I read it right the mods gave you guys a little time away to cool things. I for one, now after reading all this will now have to figure out way to get these different mods. As I can't feel comfort in buying form any of you now! And that really P***** me off. Your like little kids over fighting over who's toy are best to play with. Mods you need to get involved again

Your worship for KB is just as old. Some of you guys are taking this way beyond what it is, all thats happened here is a guy steps out and says something CANNOT be done, and it CAN. Big deal, a little egg on the face, maybe don't make such bold statements like jump out and challenge everyone in the world to do something, even lay money on it?????? IMO thats begging to be shown up!

With that said the only person stirring up anything is YOU, it seems that you are hell bent on starting crap between other parties because the side you love took a hit. Where were you when he challenged all takers? Where were you when he called me the Riddler? Where were you when he chided me on calling me Mr Wizard? I didn't see you stepping in and telling HIM he was out of line, recommending not to make wild open ended challenges.

I haven't seen KB in here crying ........ he is a man not a little kid. I agree with you, the mods need to get involved alright....they need to take YOU out of this because your only purpose seems to be to stir up the troops, sniping away at me because I was able to fill a stupid bottle which means nothing in the scheme of things.

.

TxChristopher

11-04-2005, 08:14 AM

can"t see the video.
Is it from start to Finnish? Time stamped showing it being filled. The normal way. anything can be filled to the brim. But i bet not by the way it is described in the book. Tx this hate you seem to have for KB is getting old. Being a new owner here and having read all this It is getting old. I would have thought, If I read it right the mods gave you guys a little time away to cool things. I for one, now after reading all this will now have to figure out way to get these different mods. As I can't feel comfort in buying form any of you now! And that really P***** me off. Your like little kids over fighting over who's toy are best to play with. Mods you need to get involved again

I am kinda glad you brought that up, the bans came because your hero and his buddies were talking crap about my wife, who has nothing to do with this forum. Another of them cruised over in one of my threads and posted major crap starting up an old argument about "the group" taking credit. I didn't even respond to any of that, all I did was complain to the mods to stop it. I got banned while on vacation, didn't even need to be here posting. Perhaps it was based on all the past stuff, way before that, who knows, but I never found out why and haven't found a member that knows either.

So if I am gonna get banned because I don't like people talking smack about my wife then I am fine with that result, I wouldn't participate here if the forum allowed it anyway so a BAN wouldn't be needed anyway because I wouldn't care to come here. D Lafleur can tell you, my wife would rather I stop wasting time, money, and space around the house trying to help other people out in an issue that doesn't affect us personally, after all as she says "our truck doesn't have any problems, so why spend all this effort messing with it?". The pinnacle of this was when my stupid ass ran the truck out of diesel on beltway 8 because I was beating on it so hard while towing trying to make it overheat, and she had to sit in the truck in 98* heat for over an hour blocking a traffic lane while I went back and forth on foot fetching diesel from a station that wasn't even close to us.

Rant complete, lets move on PLEASE.

.

.

TxChristopher

11-04-2005, 10:30 AM

To the mods:

The two posts above were to stop the bickering now, before it begins, over this stupid filling the degas bottle thing. I could care less about the bet or any of the noise, it was just fun to fill it since "it couldn't be done".

Hopefully this is the last of this subject.

Thanks.

.

killerbee

11-05-2005, 06:57 AM

...Big deal, a little egg on the face, maybe don't make such bold statements like jump out and challenge everyone in the world to do something, even lay money on it?????? IMO thats begging to be shown up!.

Censored (http://new.wavlist.com/movies/341/tmstn-anymore.wav) (press me for message)

killerbee

11-05-2005, 07:12 AM

...

Adding coolant to the degas, how can you fill it past the "COLD FILL mark" shown in the manual?

... no answer, and I waited 3 days.

The degas cannot be overfilled. At least in my attempts.. Hopefully someone got this point. If someone is somehow able to overfill the degas, I would like to know how. Of course, magic tricks, aren't real applicable.

killerbee

11-05-2005, 07:31 AM

Don't some vehicles have hoses with wire in them to keep them from collapsing?

Maybe it's just cheap hose.
...

I have a decent camera, and someday hope to capture that lower hose during an overheat. Boyd???

TxChristopher

11-05-2005, 07:32 AM

... no answer, and I waited 3 days.

The degas cannot be overfilled. Hopefully someone got this point. If someone is somehow able to overfill the degas, I would like to know how. Of course, magic tricks, aren't real applicable.

Thanks for using another OH thread to amuse yourself.

OMG. :eek:

That WAS done by adding coolant to the degas. Thats fine, I will leave it alone so that you can act like you won.

The main point is that JK and RDL and webecruisin and everyone tried to tell you that the fill line is the seam. The picture in the owners manual has an arrow that is pointing out the entire tank, not the fill line, but you chose to pick on some useless detail and make a big deal out of it, to amuse YOURSELF as everyone tried to meet your challenge to fill it I guess. I know you wanna try to portray yourself as the good guy for the mods, but lets get real about who was playing a game with everyone.

As webecruisin pointed out, his came from the factory overfilled. Its ok, you can be wrong too ya know, it won't kill ya! ):h

I didn't waste space, and more importantly everyone's time and effort in another overheat thread, by sending everyone out on a useless adventure to fill the thing beyond what it is capable of, you did.

:exactly:

.

FLSTFI Dave

11-05-2005, 07:41 AM

killerbee

11-05-2005, 08:06 AM

Dave, you know the answer.

You are not alone with the purge of unwanted air. There are many cases now.

Are there older "diesel supps" that point to another area of the tank as the cold fill mark? All the silverado and sierra truck manuals (fleetwide universal) show a different container, not the diesel degas container. It is shown with the seam as the cold fill mark. Not applicable to us.

FLSTFI Dave

11-05-2005, 08:10 AM

Dave, you know the answer.

You are not alone with the purge of unwanted air. There are many cases now.

That is my point. Many have posted it is impossible for air to be in the engine, hoses or radator cooling system. If it is impossible then I want them to explain where 2 quarts of coolant went. The coolant I added never left the system.

killerbee

11-05-2005, 08:16 AM

FWIW, I recently did another flush, am now using Zerex G-05, a low low silicate hybrid OAT. After 3 days of runs, I still have several inches of air in the rad. I am working on the reason for this. Just doesn't seem like this system wants to be air free. I believe the relative level of the degas, to the rest of the system, with the vent line 'U' as a possible air trap, is a problem. Now I can try things one at a time to see if that holds true, and if there is a good way to get it out.

Edit: anyone who wants to verify an air condition in the rad, there are 2 ways I have used. One is to get the truck good and warm, then scan the rad with an IR gun. The top of my radiator is perpetually cold, to my fingers as well. The other is to vent the system (remove and replace the cap) then pull the vent hose, and keep a finger over the end. If full or nearly full, there should be a small stream from the rad nipple.

Mackin

11-05-2005, 08:33 AM

I am kinda glad you brought that up, the bans came because your hero and his buddies were talking crap about my wife, who has nothing to do with this forum. Another of them cruised over in one of my threads and posted major crap starting up an old argument about "the group" taking credit. I didn't even respond to any of that, all I did was complain to the mods to stop it. I got banned while on vacation, didn't even need to be here posting. Perhaps it was based on all the past stuff, way before that, who knows, but I never found out why and haven't found a member that knows either.

So if I am gonna get banned because I don't like people talking smack about my wife then I am fine with that result, I wouldn't participate here if the forum allowed it anyway so a BAN wouldn't be needed anyway because I wouldn't care to come here. D Lafleur can tell you, my wife would rather I stop wasting time, money, and space around the house trying to help other people out in an issue that doesn't affect us personally, after all as she says "our truck doesn't have any problems, so why spend all this effort messing with it?". The pinnacle of this was when my stupid ass ran the truck out of diesel on beltway 8 because I was beating on it so hard while towing trying to make it overheat, and she had to sit in the truck in 98* heat for over an hour blocking a traffic lane while I went back and forth on foot fetching diesel from a station that wasn't even close to us.

Rant complete, lets move on PLEASE.

.

.

I wish when this was going on more was told to me as I could have,would have ,nipped it in the bud a LONG ass time ago! As a matter of fact I recall sending a PM that was never answered.

So where do we stand today?

Lets move on before I get overly involved and we all feel uncomfortable.Everyone will never agree to the actual cause or band-aid remedy,you's must except that or except the consequences.

The bickering is non-productive but only for getting emotions flying negatively.

RickDLance

11-05-2005, 09:25 AM

I have seen several post stating air can not be in the system other than the degas tank. I have asked a simple question that has yet to be ansewerd. I believe full well I had air in the system, either the hoses, engine, or radiator or all the above.

I think the meaning behind those statments is that by design the system will eventualy work that air out. Even after purging, bleeding, and running the engine, coolant may need to be added.

I will provide all the information again and then ask again.

My coolant level in the de-gas tank was always at the ridge just above the full cold lettering on the tank. I had a collapsed uper hose almost every morning. I replaced the defective cap. Drove the truck 35 miles. Next morning, degas tank was almost empty. Hose was not collapsed. Added two quarts of Dex to bring it back to the original level. No coolant has ever come out of the truck, not into the oil, not onto the ground. It has been two weeks and I have not had to add more coolant.

If as others have stated there is no air in the system other than the de-gas where did 2 quarts of coolant go? Coolant will not compress at the pressures we can develope.

Dave, could it have been simply to fill the now unflattened hose? If the cap theory holds true and you were in an excess vacuum when cold, then by relieving that vacuum and "enlarging" that hose, (and possibly other unseen components), you now should have to add coolant. Not specifically to replace air, but to fill the now un-collasped component volume. I think it would have been a plus to see and compare the level change in the bottle before and after when hot also.

Where is your coolant level when hot? Mine is within a 1/2" from the top on the pass side of the tank, but stays at the bottom of the fill tube on the drivers side.

Also when are you going to tow? Aren't you the one that could overheat on flat ground with a light load?? Results might help further the cause.

killerbee

11-05-2005, 09:36 AM

...Mine is within a 1/2" from the top on the pass side of the tank, but stays at the bottom of the fill tube on the drivers side.

do you have a pic of this Rick?

RickDLance

11-05-2005, 09:44 AM

I will attempt to get you one later today. My internet service has been really spoty. Don't let me forget.

TxChristopher

11-05-2005, 10:00 AM

I have seen several post stating air can not be in the system other than the degas tank. I have asked a simple question that has yet to be ansewerd. I believe full well I had air in the system, either the hoses, engine, or radiator or all the above.

I will provide all the information again and then ask again.

My coolant level in the de-gas tank was always at the ridge just above the full cold lettering on the tank. I had a collapsed uper hose almost every morning. I replaced the defective cap. Drove the truck 35 miles. Next morning, degas tank was almost empty. Hose was not collapsed. Added two quarts of Dex to bring it back to the original level. No coolant has ever come out of the truck, not into the oil, not onto the ground. It has been two weeks and I have not had to add more coolant.

If as others have stated there is no air in the system other than the de-gas where did 2 quarts of coolant go? Coolant will not compress at the pressures we can develope.

Ok, this will be my last post wasting time on this subject. Maybe I can give you an explaination you will understand, if not I give up as this is truly unimportant, will therefore remain a mystery, and has already been PROVEN by the heavy tow guys to not have any impact at all.

Here goes:

1) The cap by design resists air being allowed into the system readily.
2) coolant expands when heated.
3) The main hoses are soft and compliant and possess substantial volume
4) A vehicle that runs hot will move a greater amount of coolant to the res (more coolant expansion)
5) When you kill the truck everything stops, initially temps go up but then everything begins to cool down.
6) The coolant contracts upon cooldown.
7) The hoses lack the strength in their walls to overcome the cap relief.

So, the answer is that your truck had the proper amount of coolant in it, maybe it was a touch low, only difference was the volume that the hoses hold was staying in the res upon cooldown, hence the apparent high level. The collapse in your upper hose was a result of a hydraulic collapse from the suction of the contraction of the coolant. Your lower hose was also more than likely partially collapsed or deformed to some extent as well. We are talking about a fair amount of volume the two hoses can hold. Lets use this famous "thumb on the straw" example. Get a straw, fill it with liquid, put your thumb on the end. Better yet fold over one end to make sure the end is sealed. Now suck the liquid out of the straw. What happens to the straw? It collapses. Is there any air in the straw now? No, because it was a hydraulic collapse. Same thing with the hoses, no air in there just a hydraulic collapse.

Now the owner comes along, notices the P7046 code (collapsed hose! oh my!) and upsets things. What did you say, upsets things? Yes thats right. The air in the tank was in a nice vacuum, but you pull the cap off. Now the dynamic of the system has changed. Its not really a bad thing, because hey why not let the coolant sit in the hoses instead of the res? So the coolant slides over into the hoses.

But Tx, what about the two quarts of coolant I added???????

I am glad you asked me about that! Those two quarts that you poured in to fill the res as much as you can is called overfilling the res. This is no different than adding two more quarts of oil to the engine, yes it can fit in there, but it is not needed. You said you filled it back to where it was, but where it was in fact was a high level condition for the res itself. Perhaps as I said above, you might have been a little low overall but by far and away the two quarts you put in served to overfill the res. Everything past the seam is extra, no mystery about it.

ALL OF THE COOLANT YOU GUYS ARE ADDING BEYOND THE SEAM IS EXTRA COOLANT NOT DESIGNED TO BE PRESENT, YOU HAVE OVERFILLED AND CALLED THAT THE AMOUNT THE SYSTEM WAS LOW WHEN IN FACT IT WAS NOT.

.

marky

11-05-2005, 12:15 PM

Just doesn't seem like this system wants to be air free. I believe the relative level of the degas, to the rest of the system, with the vent line 'U' as a possible air trap, is a problem. Now I can try things one at a time to see if that holds true, and if there is a good way to get it out.

.

As the coolant heats up and pressures build, the air (at the top of the radiator) is compressed. The air exerts force in all directions and will want to push its way along the vent hose to the degas container. I would think that the pressures in the degas container is the roughly the same as the rad. So the the passage of air is primarily hindered by the static pressure (head) of the coolant in the degas container. It may be helped along by the influence that the water pump places on the degas container, but I have no idea how big an effect that has.

I am like you. When I look at the geometries of the system, it does not seem likely that all gas would be purged. Wouldn't the amount of gas present (cold) (anywhere in the system including rad and degas container) be a factor in how much pressure you are able to build when hot? If your degas is low on coolant or you have air in top of rad, wouldn't that prevent you from reaching max pressures? If someone does put a T in their radiator vent hose, perhaps they could add a gauge to see what pressures are seen with and without air in the rad.

On edit

Is it correct hat if you overfill your degas container, it could hinder the purging of air?

killerbee

11-05-2005, 12:30 PM

Tx, I don't know, I can't assemble what you are trying to say. It's not for a loss of trying.

Collapsed hoses did not empty Daves degas.

His tank was full (more or less) after pulling off the cap to replace it, expanding hoses did not empty his degas. THAT action and observation, takes suction collapse out of the picture.

His tank emptied after driving it in the new cap. I followed his case closely, heck I had to bug him to try it. He filled back to his original level, and that was 2 quarts.

I read your post 3 times Tx, I'm sorry, truly am. As constructive as i can be. It just doesn't apply to him as i see it. I won't bug you about it, we have to just walk away. Don't want to see anyone get in trouble, though I'd love to get this understood in the masses, as a consensus.

The topic of flush has to be addressed, and we cannot consider a system with air as flushed. As a fact, I have air, no question, so i'll defer on the rest and continue with how to get it out, as this challenge progresses.

c12719

11-05-2005, 12:44 PM

As the coolant heats up and pressures build, the air (at the top of the radiator) is compressed. The air exerts force in all directions and will want to push its way along the vent hose to the degas container. I would think that the pressures in the degas container is the roughly the same as the rad. So the the passage of air is primarily hindered by the static pressure (head) of the coolant in the degas container. It may be helped along by the influence that the water pump places on the degas container, but I have no idea how big an effect that has.

I am like you. When I look at the geometries of the system, it does not seem likely that all gas would be purged. Wouldn't the amount of gas present (cold) (anywhere in the system including rad and degas container) be a factor in how much pressure you are able to build when hot? If your degas is low on coolant or you have air in top of rad, wouldn't that prevent you from reaching max pressures? If someone does put a T in their radiator vent hose, perhaps they could add a gauge to see what pressures are seen with and without air in the rad.

On edit

Is it correct hat if you overfill your degas container, it could hinder the purging of air?

Pressure would be the same regardless of air in rad or not, no? Pressure transmits the same through liquid or gas. It doesn't matter in a pressure cooker if there's a little or a lot of water in the bottom. Is your first paragraph stating something different than the second or am I really lost here?

marky

11-05-2005, 01:11 PM

Pressure would be the same regardless of air in rad or not, no? Pressure transmits the same through liquid or gas. It doesn't matter in a pressure cooker if there's a little or a lot of water in the bottom. Is your first paragraph stating something different than the second or am I really lost here?

I am probably the one who is lost since my physics is weak. As the system heats up, both the air and the coolant will want to expand. This will cause the pressure (of the system to rise). The air is more compressable than the liquid.

If you heat air and coolant the same amount (in a closed system) which will contribute more to the total pressure? Perhaps I have it backwards, or perhaps it does not matter. Assuing a working degas container cap, I am curious If there is a situation where the system would not allowed to achieve 15psi,

killerbee

11-05-2005, 01:43 PM

If you heat air and coolant the same amount (in a closed system) which will contribute more to the total pressure?

That is such an important question. I have charts that I made that explain it better, but bottom line, below 160, almost always, coolant expansion. As you all point out, key is the fact that air is compressible, so if there is a large portion of it, getting to 15 psi requires about 230-240 ECT. If there is very little gas, 15 psi can be reached by around 160. Going from memory, exact numbers may be off a bit.

c12719

11-05-2005, 02:48 PM

That is such an important question. I have charts that I made that explain it better, but bottom line, below 160, almost always, coolant expansion. As you all point out, key is the fact that air is compressible, so if there is a large portion of it, getting to 15 psi requires about 230-240 ECT. If there is very little gas, 15 psi can be reached by around 160. Going from memory, exact numbers may be off a bit.

We seem to be working from the periphery trying to find our way to a center. Compressible or not, a gas or liquid transmits pressure the same. In a closed system a reading taken anywhere will read roughly the same, air, liquid or mix. Engine running, ECT at 240 degrees (pressure same throughout system for all intents and purposes), what physical point in the system is preventing air purge? I, and most of us, don’t have a copy of the Helms manual and therefore haven’t gotten a look at a good drawing of the surge tank and its connections (especially the inside) but if you could post a decent diagram and point out the area you feel to be a problem, we could then bring in physics 101, if required.
Exactly what part of the design is in error? If we could start with that it would then be easy to follow the “why” part (at least for me). My apology in advance if it has been previously pointed out in the voluminous material covered so far. I’m not concerned at this point if there is failure to purge or not as the subject is doing me little good without an understanding of the geometry involved in the surge tank. Are you saying the cap was the only problem? The vent line the only problem you're focusing on now? The vent line is the same on the none OH trucks as well?

FLSTFI Dave

11-06-2005, 07:24 AM

Dave, could it have been simply to fill the now unflattened hose? If the cap theory holds true and you were in an excess vacuum when cold, then by relieving that vacuum and "enlarging" that hose, (and possibly other unseen components), you now should have to add coolant. Not specifically to replace air, but to fill the now un-collasped component volume. I think it would have been a plus to see and compare the level change in the bottle before and after when hot also.

Where is your coolant level when hot? Mine is within a 1/2" from the top on the pass side of the tank, but stays at the bottom of the fill tube on the drivers side.

Also when are you going to tow? Aren't you the one that could overheat on flat ground with a light load?? Results might help further the cause.

I would have to believe that some of the coolant was used to fill the collapsed hose, and other stuff. Unfortunatley I only compaired cold to cold.

I will have to look next time I drive the truck to see the level hot.

I have been hoping for a warm day, like at least 70 degrees. This way I can compair apples to apples with only one change, the cap and 2 quarts coolant. Yes, I can over heat in 96 degree weather pulling 4000 pounds. I can also hit 235 in 71 degree weather pulling 12000 pounds and this is not a a grade but relativley flat roads.

FLSTFI Dave

11-06-2005, 07:57 AM

Ok, this will be my last post wasting time on this subject. Maybe I can give you an explaination you will understand, if not I give up as this is truly unimportant, will therefore remain a mystery, and has already been PROVEN by the heavy tow guys to not have any impact at all.

Here goes:

1) The cap by design resists air being allowed into the system readily.
2) coolant expands when heated.
3) The main hoses are soft and compliant and possess substantial volume
4) A vehicle that runs hot will move a greater amount of coolant to the res (more coolant expansion)
5) When you kill the truck everything stops, initially temps go up but then everything begins to cool down.
6) The coolant contracts upon cooldown.
7) The hoses lack the strength in their walls to overcome the cap relief.

So, the answer is that your truck had the proper amount of coolant in it, maybe it was a touch low, only difference was the volume that the hoses hold was staying in the res upon cooldown, hence the apparent high level. The collapse in your upper hose was a result of a hydraulic collapse from the suction of the contraction of the coolant. Your lower hose was also more than likely partially collapsed or deformed to some extent as well. We are talking about a fair amount of volume the two hoses can hold. Lets use this famous "thumb on the straw" example. Get a straw, fill it with liquid, put your thumb on the end. Better yet fold over one end to make sure the end is sealed. Now suck the liquid out of the straw. What happens to the straw? It collapses. Is there any air in the straw now? No, because it was a hydraulic collapse. Same thing with the hoses, no air in there just a hydraulic collapse.

Now the owner comes along, notices the P7046 code (collapsed hose! oh my!) and upsets things. What did you say, upsets things? Yes thats right. The air in the tank was in a nice vacuum, but you pull the cap off. Now the dynamic of the system has changed. Its not really a bad thing, because hey why not let the coolant sit in the hoses instead of the res? So the coolant slides over into the hoses.

But Tx, what about the two quarts of coolant I added???????

I am glad you asked me about that! Those two quarts that you poured in to fill the res as much as you can is called overfilling the res. This is no different than adding two more quarts of oil to the engine, yes it can fit in there, but it is not needed. You said you filled it back to where it was, but where it was in fact was a high level condition for the res itself. Perhaps as I said above, you might have been a little low overall but by far and away the two quarts you put in served to overfill the res. Everything past the seam is extra, no mystery about it.

ALL OF THE COOLANT YOU GUYS ARE ADDING BEYOND THE SEAM IS EXTRA COOLANT NOT DESIGNED TO BE PRESENT, YOU HAVE OVERFILLED AND CALLED THAT THE AMOUNT THE SYSTEM WAS LOW WHEN IN FACT IT WAS NOT.

.

I have not said the cap is a fix or not a fix. I will only know that when I pull my RV in the same conditions as the last time I pulled it. That is 71 degrees out on I-40. However it hard to believe it will not at least help.

So you are say two quarts of coolant needing to be added is a little low?

It was at the line just above full cold words when the truck was cold before I changed the cap. That is where is was every time I looked at the truck cold. I then replaced the cap, and did not add coolant as the level had not changed. I drove the truck. The next time I check the coolant level cold the resivor was all most empty. I only filled it back to the exact level it was two days earlier, prior to the cap change. Level is the same point with 2 more quarts of coolant in the syastem.

Now, that bad cap that would not allow air to be pulled thru it to keep the hose full as the coolant cooled. Also means it could not pull coolant that expanded and went into the resivor back into the system as the coolant cooled. Easier to move a gas than a liquid.

I do have an under standing of Charle's Law and Boyles' law. That is why I know my system was two quarts lower before the cap change than it is now. Again the level on the resivor is exactly the same now as it was before the cap change, just 2 more quarts in the system.

Reading your post again, I can see you even point out the system can not pull air into the resivor with a bad cap. That is fact. Therfor the system can not pull coolant into the empty (collapsed). It can not do that because the hose is not strong enough to collapse the resivor. Add a new cap and it can now pull air into the system. So it can now pull coolant into the hose and other areas that air was trapped. It will only pull coolant in during the cooling cycle of the coolant. That is why by just replacing the cap it did not need any coolant. Coolant was cool. Driving it and heating it up caused expansion. Then cooling over night pulled coolant into the hoses and engine. It pulled 2 quarts out of the resivor. So I added 2 qaurts, same level it was before cap change. The truck has not puked any of the coolant out.

Therfor the truck had to have air in the system other than the resivor. You can not in our trucks compress the coolant. Level is the same on the tank as it was cold bad cap as it is now, cold good cap.

I would not run my truck two quart low of oil. I doubt it would hurt it, but just the same there is a reason there is a level it is suspose to be kept at. I also would not put an extra quart in for good measure as that can cause problems. Same goes with my coolant level. A I have few friends that can tell you and extra 1/2 quart of oil in a harley is not fun. It pukes out the air breather hot, onto your leg.

I have a very good mechanical knowledge. I have worked in industrial maintenance for 24 years. I also taught pneumatics and hydraulics at the communtiy college for four years along with PLC's, motors and controls.

TxChristopher

11-06-2005, 08:31 AM

I wanted it to be my last post, politics makes others trash it when it makes perfect sense and they claim it says opposite of what it means, but it doesn't. Its either an actual effort to undermine, or an ongoing comprehension problem, either of which are kinda sad. I will only reply to you Dave, and I would appreciate if the troublemakers would not address my posting. You know who you are, if you have to think about it, then you are one.

The cap is not a fix, I am not even talking about any of that, I am only focusing on this 2 quarts that people are talking about who had flat hoses. Notice please the two go hand in hand.

Now lets you and me talk about this.

You said all level measurements were while cold. While cold you had collapsed hoses. You also said that the level in the res was at the line above the cold fill wording. I take that to mean the thick solid line above.

It was at the line just above full cold words when the truck was cold before I changed the cap. That is where is was every time I looked at the truck cold. I then replaced the cap, and did not add coolant as the level had not changed. I drove the truck. The next time I check the coolant level cold the resivor was all most empty. I only filled it back to the exact level it was two days earlier, prior to the cap change. Level is the same point with 2 more quarts of coolant in the syastem.

That line is actually overfilled.

So now you have said "I have collapsed hoses and I am overfilled"

Therefore, now you let the vacuum escape and the extra volume in the res could more easily move into the hoses. Next thing you did was bring the level back to where it was, which was what? Overfilled. You must understand when I am saying overfilled I am speaking about the res ONLY, not the rest of the system. So I am saying most of the two quarts you added were overfilling, they simply served to bring the res up higher than the seam which is more than is needed.

I also noticed you never said anything about the "low coolant warning" on the DIC, which means the res was not almost empty since that warning comes in long before that. The res is very tricky and has multiple compartments, it may have fooled you in a casual observation of its level when you checked it after the cap change.

Are we in agreement that the mark above the seam and even above the cold fill words is overfilled? Because if we aren't then I cannot get you to see that most of the two quarts you added were not needed and therefore you were not "two quarts low".

.

Bill Gisse

11-06-2005, 10:01 AM

Flush instructions look real good. Thanks. Made a copy for my hard copy truck file and put the original in my computer save file. Appreciate you taking all the time to give us the info.

RickDLance

11-06-2005, 10:13 AM

I wonder how the "flusher" himself is doing this weekend?? JJ where are you??

killerbee

11-06-2005, 01:58 PM

I wonder how the "flusher" himself is doing this weekend?? JJ where are you (http://new.wavlist.com/movies/273/cpf-comeout.wav)

Rumor has it he is trying to pull the 5ver up pikes peak.

RickDLance

11-06-2005, 02:10 PM

WOT with cardboard in front of the radiator?????):h ):h ):h

killerbee

11-06-2005, 02:21 PM

Imagine, and no breakdown lane. (http://new.wavlist.com/movies/002/fg-pee.wav)

FLSTFI Dave

11-07-2005, 05:59 AM

You said all level measurements were while cold. While cold you had collapsed hoses. You also said that the level in the res was at the line above the cold fill wording. I take that to mean the thick solid line above.

It was at the line just above full cold words when the truck was cold before I changed the cap. That is where is was every time I looked at the truck cold. I then replaced the cap, and did not add coolant as the level had not changed. I drove the truck. The next time I check the coolant level cold the resivor was all most empty. I only filled it back to the exact level it was two days earlier, prior to the cap change. Level is the same point with 2 more quarts of coolant in the syastem.

That line is actually overfilled.

So now you have said "I have collapsed hoses and I am overfilled"

Therefore, now you let the vacuum escape and the extra volume in the res could more easily move into the hoses. Next thing you did was bring the level back to where it was, which was what? Overfilled. You must understand when I am saying overfilled I am speaking about the res ONLY, not the rest of the system. So I am saying most of the two quarts you added were overfilling, they simply served to bring the res up higher than the seam which is more than is needed.

I also noticed you never said anything about the "low coolant warning" on the DIC, which means the res was not almost empty since that warning comes in long before that. The res is very tricky and has multiple compartments, it may have fooled you in a casual observation of its level when you checked it after the cap change.

Are we in agreement that the mark above the seam and even above the cold fill words is overfilled? Because if we aren't then I cannot get you to see that most of the two quarts you added were not needed and therefore you were not "two quarts low".

.

The main point is the fact that the truck resivor has the exact same level in it now with the new cap and 2 extra quarts of coolant. That means the 2 quarts of coolant are in the engine, radiator, hoses or some where other than the resaivor. If in fact that line above full cold is over full, it is still not even 1/2 a quart above the seam in the tank.

I am very aware the are chambers. This is not my first diesel, nor my first duramax. I also know with the flat hose, when squezing it the level never rose or fell in the resivor. It now rises and falls in the resivor.

I am not 2 quarts over full, maybe slightly over full. I may not have been a full two quarts low, but I was more than a quart and 1/2 low.

JJs DuMax

11-07-2005, 08:23 AM

JJ checking in. Mama JJ and I have been in the Greensboro NC area for the past few days without internet access. We're in Raleigh right now.

I was finally able to get the fan to engage on one long grade. From a dead stop on a 6% 3 mile grade WOT run (OD disengaged) at 3k RPM's the ECT's climbed from 192* to 217* on the Attitude, fan engaged once and pulled ECT's down to 192* and disengaged. Weight right around 26k lbs, slight headwind, OAT's 75* with very low humidity.

70mph at 10mpg, respectable. Previously the ECT's would cycle up/down with fan engagement bringing them down. I turned off the ECT on the Attitude monitor, OEM gauge never moved. I can see how folks that read the OEM gauge post it never moves. One night it was down around 190*, never seen that before.

Very few opportunities to nail any mountains, possibly up I26 to Asheville in a couple of weeks, Mama JJ will be doing that pull if I still have the unit. Still looking at Class A motorhomes, setting up the 5ver is too much work for her.

Dave, you've made your point multiple times, most of us get it. ;) This "fan the flames" approach on the DP is eroding this site IMHO. We need to get back to the facts and technical issues, get the BS on the "Off Topic" forum. :exactly:

I haven't read any of the other threads to get up-to-speed. Hopefully things are moving forward in a positive manner. :) Later. JJ

JJs DuMax

11-12-2005, 08:19 AM

It's been a few weeks since I started this thread. I'm curious, has anyone done a full system flush and replaced the cap if the hoses were previously flat in the morning? You don't have to reply here, PM me if you like. JJ :)

As far as I can tell my truck may be the only one running all the mods we've developed: KB shrouds/seal; TxC CAI; 3" OEM air dam extension; modified splash guard; tow hook seals. The flush/cap isn't an overheating mod, never espoused to be. Just simple maintenance, wish folks would quit referring to it like it is some kind of new thing. :o:

Even with all the mods my truck didn't hit the ground running until I cured that collapsing hose and vacuum problem by flushing, fully recharging the system and replacing the cap. :exactly: JJ :)

TxChristopher

11-12-2005, 09:47 AM

You know what? After talking to JJ on the phone I was able to determine he is really a real person! I had doubts, afterall computer programs have come a long way these days, but no, he is real. Go figure.

A much more serious and logical speaking individual than you would expect going by his postings on here. It was good talking to you JJ, too bad you won't be able to make it to Kennedy's.

.

JJs DuMax

11-12-2005, 09:56 AM

TxC,

I always prefer to personally speak to folks versus posting e-mails in a forum. Too much gets lost in the real interpretation. ;) I enjoyed that talk as well, hopefully more to come in working towards making these trucks capable of doing the jobs we need for them to do. :exactly: JJ :)

RickDLance

11-12-2005, 10:40 AM

Do I hear wedding bells???:):):)

JJs DuMax

11-12-2005, 11:59 AM

Do I hear wedding bells???:):):)

Depends, are you still on your pain killers? ):h

TxC and I still don't agree on everything, just took the time to personally speak with each other about some of the issues. TxC must have made 5 deliveries while we talked for about an hour. TxC, am I close? JJ :)

TxChristopher

11-12-2005, 12:48 PM

I think I did 4, and drove about 34 miles around Houston, during our conversation.

.

Fingers

11-12-2005, 06:28 PM

Ever since this thread got started I have been curious. So I did a little experiment. While the truck was still hot, but below 200*, I loosened the cap and let the pressure out. When it cooled down, my top hose looked like this:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11070&d=1131837529

Now that is flat. I've been running around for about a week like this while I try to get the truck hot. No luck. So today I removed the cap and freed up the vent valve. It was stuck in place. Here is a picture of me pushing the valve to the side to free it up.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11071&d=1131837529

Since the top hose had taken a little bit of a set from the week of being collapsed, I pressurized the system while cold by using a blow gun and blowing about 10PSI into the vent line like this.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11072&d=1131837554

Now the top hose is rock hard. Any excess pressure will be release by the cap when she warms up. I know cause I tried to pump more into it and it just released the air as fast as I could put it in.

Coolant level is down maybe 1/2" in the tank.

Even with the highly collapsed top hose, the bottom hose was in perfect condition FWIW.

JJs DuMax

11-13-2005, 10:31 AM

I PM'd Fingers for clarification on his post. This evolution actually affirms what we already knew: These trucks can be driven with an upper collapsed hose (under vacuum) without overheating and we'll never even realize it. :o:

My upper hose was collapsed just like this, it just didn't refill with coolant when I released vacuum. Even running the truck didn't help. I replaced the defective cap with a NAPA cap, still had vacuum. It wasn't until I flushed the system that releasing vacuum caused the hose to go from flat as a pancake to round in a split second, actually heard the hose pop it was under so much vacuum. :confused:

I replaced the defective NAPA cap with the AZ cap (7046), topped off the system over several days making sure I got the tstats to open and flow coolant faster through the system, and have had minimal fan engagement ever since, even towing heavy (24k lbs+) in 85*+ OAT's at 80mph. :) I've posted my results towing heavy since on several threads so I won't restate them here. ;)

Bear in mind I have done every overheating mod (the only one I think), but it was the system flush and cap replacement that apparently made every thing work as designed. :) Oops, almost forgot, I also have one of those MikeL coolers dumping BTU's into the stack and my EGR is still connected dumping BTU's into the coolant as well. ;) JJ be happy! ;)

You can drive around with these systems in vacuum (many unknowingly are already) and never run hot or overheat during normal everyday driving, especially watching the OEM ECT gauge. It's not until you pull heavy or somehow induce sustained high BTU's (heat) for extended periods into the coolant and it rises above 230* that the truck may overheat before 265* if system pressure isn't at 16psi as designed. :exactly: This is being discussed on another thread, not this one. :)

Let's talk about these caps for a second. First/foremost, a defective cap is just that, defective! I wouldn't chance my system not pressurizing on the particular day that I need it to, especially towing heavy into mountains where places to pull over aren't a plenty! :confused:

Additionally, reservoir caps aren't MODS, they are existing components that play a critical part in the cooling systems ability to both pressurize and release pressure during cool-down. These caps may just be one item we have totally underestimated? Why can some trucks overheat on one day and not another? :confused: Why do some trucks have flat hoses, others not? :confused: There aren't many moving parts in our cooling systems, the only one that regulates system pressure is the cap. If it functions one day but not the next, we'll have inconsistent overheating from truck to truck, sound familiar? :confused:

Neither KB, Fox, TxC, JK or myself have said the reservoir cap is "THE CURE". It is a critical component that allows our systems to operate up to 265* instead of 230*+- before the coolant boils. Simple enough to understand. If the cap isn't working as designed I would replace it, $7-$8, whoopee! :D Coolant flush cost: $0

So back to my original question: Has anyone flushed, refilled and replaced a defective cap? Also, what overheating mods are you running? What results have you had? JJ :)