OK, I need fuel. Plain and simple and unless I put a hose in the intake and put another lift pump pumping fuel, I do not think that I will ever have enough with the DS4. This being becuase I cannot afford the 5068 pump with the westers reflash. Not gonna happen becuse me lotto numbers never come up:( .

So what number pump is the DB2 catagory do I want, how about a #5030 ????

Is there a pump off of a bigger engine that will put out the PSI and volume? I have lines for a 4911 mech. IP , will they work with any DB2 pump?

I am giving up on this electronic stuff for a little and feel it is time to go old school. Let me know some numbers, those of you who are the IP experts, on what I need to make the black some I want. Thanks bunches

That's a lot of gettin' around electronics to marry up a mechanical pump. It can be done, but..... lots o'work.

That's a lot of gettin' around electronics to marry up a mechanical pump. It can be done, but..... lots o'work.

I have a bubby that has it figures out. He runs his 4L80E in his el camino with a 434 CI sml blck chevy at 850 HP, no computer. He has a laptop connection that runs the tranny. My only concern is to loop the open pump circuits to keep all sensors and safteys working.

Also a little concerned about gages.

How about a late 80's, early 90's pump off of a 7.3 Diesel F@rd engine? That is a Stanadyne pump?

I have a down truck and a Westers flash just sitting there waiting for a motor to get rebuilt, find a 5068 pump and i'd loan ya the flash for a couple of weeks for testing?

Come to think of it now i still haven't sent the flash back to westers for re-tuning to the 18:1's yet, maybe i better not until thats done.

I have a down truck and a Westers flash just sitting there waiting for a motor to get rebuilt, find a 5068 pump and i'd loan ya the flash for a couple of weeks for testing?

Come to think of it now i still haven't sent the flash back to westers for re-tuning to the 18:1's yet, maybe i better not until thats done.


:bawl:, you got my hopes up.:(

Yea, where the heck am I gonna get a 5068 pump? I really have not been able to located one except for the one for $1600.00 from Westers. WAY outa my reach at the moment. I figured I could get a mechanical pump off of a 7.3 which should put out a crap-ton more fuel stock without even turning it up.

The pump that you have CR, that is one of those "built" pumps with the DS4 style pump with 5068 internals, right?

SSdiesel has them for $655 with a $100 core charge on them.

SSdiesel has them for $655 with a $100 core charge on them.

But is that the electronic pump?

Do the research on here, there is a TON of information on the DS4 hot pump.

Digest version:

5068 Cam Ring
5521+ Injection pump
Calibrated to 5521 specs (but it will have the better cam ring in it)
Reflash to make the call for the 92MM of fuel.

What I'd do is find a core 5068 pump somewhere thats not trash (5067 will not work) and talk Texas Diesel Guy into building it up for you, or tell a Stanadyne shop what you're doing and that you don't want a warranty and get em to build it.

I'd think very very hard before converting an electronic rig to mechanical injection, for the very reasons mentioned already in this thread.

What kind of injectors are you running by the way?

Do the research on here, there is a TON of information on the DS4 hot pump.

Digest version:

5068 Cam Ring
5521+ Injection pump
Calibrated to 5521 specs (but it will have the better cam ring in it)
Reflash to make the call for the 92MM of fuel.

What I'd do is find a core 5068 pump somewhere thats not trash (5067 will not work) and talk Texas Diesel Guy into building it up for you, or tell a Stanadyne shop what you're doing and that you don't want a warranty and get em to build it.

I'd think very very hard before converting an electronic rig to mechanical injection, for the very reasons mentioned already in this thread.

What kind of injectors are you running by the way?

Stock injectors.

If you have notived, I have some serious mechanical apptitude. I started pullin wrenches and twitin srcew drivers when I was 9 (I am 22). I have built many cars and race engines for bikes, boats, trucks, you name it. I am thinking, why can't I just take apart a 5521 and put in the cam ring myself. I have a spare pump here at my house that I have actaully taken apart and taken the time to try and figure out the fuel circuitry. I think there is a calibartion of some sort though to do. I dunno, that is why I would like to just get the mechanical pump and make a program to run the tranny.

Again, the 7.3 and 6.9's had a Stanadyne pump on, will one of those work?

I've heard just once of someone using a 6.9/7.3 pump on a 6.2 in the day. The main thing to note on those pumps is the firing order IS different. The mounting flange on the pump is also way different, but that doesn't mean you can't adapt. I think it would be way more work than it was worth to modify one of those pumps for our engines. Besides, maybe they really don't put out much more fuel than the GM DB2's do?

I like your explanation of your mechanical experience, we're not that much different.

I think your next modification NEEDS to be some marine injectors.

DB2-4812, how about this pump? This is off of a 7.3 diesel, which seeing as it has almost a liter more than our 6.5. I dunno, something tells me that this pump SHOULD put out more fuel.

What are so special about the marine injectors?

The Ford pump will not work on the 6.2/6.5 engine. The 6.9/7.3 pumps spin the opposite direction. They are otherwise the same pump, capable of pushing the same amount of fuel as a -4911. There are people out there that will put a different head assembly in the -4911 making it capable of pushing a lot of fuel. If you are still looking for more after that then retrofitting an inline pump off of a 3208 CAT or something similar is the only choice. I contacted Tim at Accurate Diesel once upon a time about putting bigger plungers in and the price wasn't very bad at all.

Why not just add a propane kit. You can get extra fuel that way and it is cheaper than diesel too.

Why not just add a propane kit. You can get extra fuel that way and it is cheaper than diesel too.

Option #2

Have been looking at doing that, just need to find a cheap kit, they go for like $300.00 used on ebay. What tank do I need then?

What are the downsides to propane? No engine damage, right? Dumb question probably, my buddy used to have a propane caprice, had a funny exhaust smell?:rolleyes:

Here's something for you to consider before you condemn your electronics.

If you took a 4911 pump, which by the way is the same cam ring and plunger size in any 7.3 pump, and bottomed out the leaf spring for max fuel delivery, you would get about 80-85mm of fuel. Trust me, I've done it on the test stand just for argument sake.

As I'm sure you know, there are several vendors selling 83mm chips for your 5521 pump, and one that can get you into the 90's.

DS4 pump WILL satisfy your fuel needs and more cost effectively than buying a 4911 pump + all the hardware you will need to make it work.

Just go with an 83mm reflash and see what you think, thats A LOT more fuel than stock, and as much or more as a 4911 can make.

I think he figured out that his Holset turbo can handle a lot of fuel... I can personally attest to a maxed out -4911 not coming even close. Just hotroding around I could only get around 950 degrees and towing hard up hill was 1100 max... I vote only swap the pump once and do it the right way the first time!

BTW: Pane can be benificial if used sparingly. It doesn't take much to hammer the wrist pins on these 6.5's. Most consider it to be more of a hazard when used to get lots of power.

I have a down truck and a Westers flash just sitting there waiting for a motor to get rebuilt

did they figure out the cause or what failed in your engine ?

BTW: Pane can be benificial if used sparingly. It doesn't take much to hammer the wrist pins on these 6.5's. Most consider it to be more of a hazard when used to get lots of power.

The short block that I have should take ALL the fuel you can imagine. I talked to the people at Peninsular for hours and I think it is mike there, he said I could throw everything I had at it. They push their engines all day long on the dyno and he said that they have not killed one of their engines yet.

Do they throw pane at it? I was under the impression that they used HO IP's and diesel fuel only.

Do they throw pane at it? I was under the impression that they used HO IP's and diesel fuel only.

I think I will call then tomorrow or shoot Mike an email. It is agood question to ask.

I have heard a few horror stories about propane that make me a little leary of it. I have no doubt that your engine can take all the #2 you can throw at it. It just seems like those exotic things mess stuff up quickly...

I have heard a few horror stories about propane that make me a little leary of it. I have no doubt that your engine can take all the #2 you can throw at it. It just seems like those exotic things mess stuff up quickly...

Exotice stuff, got the NOS on my nova and that stuff can put hell to a motor. Had the timing wrong once and a got an internal backfire and blew out the head gaket and the exaust gaskets, thought I cracked the heads and block at the same time.

I just hear all these guys with the bully dog stuff and the powershot2000, running them all the time. SO why can't I?

I just hear all these guys with the bully dog stuff and the powershot2000, running them all the time. SO why can't I?

At the rate you are going, you are going to become the New Canadian Rigger:ro)

At the rate you are going, you are going to become the New Canadian Rigger:ro)

I don' t think so. This engine will not give up. Many people do not see it but the Peninsular engine is tough and can take a lot of power, just need the fuel. If you go to the peninsular site, they have a 400 hp twin turbo 6.5. Mike up there said that they run these engines maxed out in big for days on end with no problems.

did they figure out the cause or what failed in your engine ?

Might know monday or tuesday... cranks broke, balancer could be moved around when the engine was pulled. So far the engine is just sitting on DAS shop floor until they have time to pull it down.

At the rate you are going, you are going to become the New Canadian Rigger?

Sorry there's only room for 1 of me here! Don't condem my engine as it didn't run right from day 1 if you guys followed my posts from the time i picked it up.

Propane seems viable, it's just barley more than $2 USd a gallon right now and you can rig it to only feed at higher than 8 psi so it's only there when you really work it. I wouldn't use it without 18:1 tho.

At the rate you are going, you are going to become the New Canadian Rigger?

Sorry there's only room for 1 of me here! Don't condem my engine as it didn't run right from day 1 if you guys followed my posts from the time i picked it up.

I hope you didn't take that as a slight, CR. I meant it as a compliment meaning that you aren't happy unless your engine is putting out a million horsepower and you will do whatever it takes to get it.:cool2: :ro)

DB2-4812, how about this pump? This is off of a 7.3 diesel, which seeing as it has almost a liter more than our 6.5. I dunno, something tells me that this pump SHOULD put out more fuel.

What are so special about the marine injectors?
Just a little more DB2 pump info since we're sorta on the subject here.
4812 is for an 88-89 (IIRC) 7.3 N/A, 5030 is a Navistar application like on a medium duty truck, basically just a different throttle lever.
5013/5028 for 90-93 has the highest fuel output of any of the 7.3 N/A's @ 62-63mm^2.
A 4911 pump for a 6.5 TURBO puts out 67-68 stock, so your much better off in that respect too.
N/A 6.5 5088/5436 pumps max at 50-52.

ALL of the above mentioned pumps have DB2 831 heads and use the same cam rings so max fuel delivery on all of them is basically the same except for the leaf spring, shoe size and delivery valve retraction value.

I really think the way for you to go is with an 83mm flash, and if your still not happy with that, and not ready to shell out the dough for the 92mm setup (I totally understand that) then throw 'pane' at it too.

I reccommend that you contact CR and some of the other guys who have used 83mm and higher flashes with 18:1 engines and see what you can get from their experience.

I can tell you right now that the Holset/18:1 engine/intercooler will take the 83 mm reflash and laugh... My buddies '96 is setup the same and he can tow heavy and only hit 1050-1100. I still say do it right once or don't do it at all.:badidea:

Don't mind me though... Never done anything, seen blown up parts, nothing like that...:blahblah:

How hot of EGTs are you looking to get? 1200F you start melting pistons, don't you think 1100 is close enough?

Let's just say, that with 20+ psi boost from whatever turbo setup you have, on an 18:1 engine you can fully burn 83mm of fuel.

You can get a DS pump setup capable of 92mm, do you think that same setup will 'laugh' at that much fuel?

I'm thinkin' he's lookin for street performance. Usually you can take the towing number and subtract a couple hundred degrees to get what it will do under unloaded street conditions. FYI, 1200 is a sustainable number EGT wise. It can be spiked higher than that for short periods of time and be safe. In all the failured I've seen none have been EGT related and that includes an engine ran at 1500 for half an hour... All I'm saying is if he wants all the performance his turbo will give then he needs alot of diesel. On a Cummins they can support over 300 RWHP, can you tow with it? no. It makes one hell of a street monster though. That's all I'm getting at, when diesel is available why use the pane?

...when diesel is available why use the pane?
I couldn't agree more.

All I'm saying, is that a DS pump CAN supply plenty of diesel to feed even the hungriest 6.5.

What I want is my truck to make it down the track in less than 15 sec 1/4 mile. I think that is possible. I am gonna step up to a hx40 once I get more too. But that might not be for a while.
As of right now, from a dead stop, even when I spool up the turbo or free-fev it, there is NO black smoke, non what so ever. It is like its a gasser.

I would like to build a pump. I think I could do it, no problem, it is jsut calibrating it and then getting a program to match it correctly. Out of curiosity, TDG, can you get me some pics on the parts in the DS pumps with a description like the plungers, can ring, and other parts that could be upgraded to get more fuel. What is the material that the plungers are made out of?

But if I can find a pane kit, I would like to try it. I just see all of these videos of cummins going 10.50 in the 1/4 and a Dmax with an exhaust and a tuner and they are pullin 12's off the street. It gets me blood pumpin seeing that stuff.

FYI, 1200 is a sustainable number EGT wise. It can be spiked higher than that for short periods of time and be safe. In all the failured I've seen none have been EGT related and that includes an engine ran at 1500 for half an hour...

1200 degrees can be had if you monitor all the cylinders individually. Using one pyrometer to measure the average temperature is a little foolish. You could have one cylinder running hot and never know it.

I have yet to see any engine run 1500 degrees with out a melt down. Aluminum starts melting at approximately 1400 with an alloy high heat resistant piston. The aluminum in normal stuff melts at 1220 degrees.

You are correct that aluminum melts at 1220, but you forget about the anodized (in some cases ceramic) coating on our pistons. It enables the EGT threshold to be bumped up some more since it rejects heat off of the piston into the combustion chamber. The other thing you don't put into the equation is the oil spray piston coolers. The oil takes alot of heat out of the pistons, if the oil is kept good and cool that is. How is the Dmax able to handle 1800-2000 degree runs at the drag strip and pulling track without the aluminum heads and pistons melting if it was as simple as aluminum melting at 1220 degrees... I will say it once again, I personally have run my 6.5 at 1250 degrees while towing for hours at a time. None of the failures I encountered were from related to EGT. Last trip it made I poped an intercooler hose and could only make 10 lbs of boost, ran 1500 degrees 75 mph the rest of the way back. None of the pistons in that motor showed the slightest sign of melting.

Chicago, That HX-35 should get you down the 1/4 mile in 15 seconds. I stand by my view that pre-ignition kills these motors, that said propane will cause pre-ignition when used in the amounts you are thinking of.

Chicago, send me a PM if you are interested in trying my Heath flash. My ECM should be compatible with your truck, and if you want to pay shipping, I could send it to you for a couple of days to see if you think it is worth the money first. I might be able to borrow a stock ECM from PaidFor, and you could keep it longer. I hardly drive my truck, but would hate to have it down completely for too long.

A question for the all the smart guys doing this thread. The way I understand it, in a gasser, lean means preignition and a hotter running motor(and lots of damage if left alone:badidea: .Ask me how I know). More fuel-not lean leads to a cooler happier motor. Shouldn't the marine injectors, assuming they flow more than the stock ones, allow more HP if the pump can drive them? And then, wouldn't the EGTs be lower :confused: ?????

Again, gasoline logic and theory for the most part does not apply to diesel engines.

Any time a diesel engine is not smoking black, its running lean. They do not have a metered air intake (butterfly). They take a full charge of air with every stroke and only add as much fuel as the PCM/Gas pedal feed it.

At an idle, your only burning about 10-12mm^2 diesel with enough air to burn 50+. Very Very lean. Light load is the same way. Cruising down the highway unloaded you are only at a fuel rate of about 30-40 (rough ballpark) and if your sustaining say 4psi boost, then you have enough air to burn twice that. Still very lean and absolutely no danger to any diesel engine running like that.

WOT fuel rate jumps to 60's 70's or even 80's with a flash, and momentarily atleast, the engine will be running 'rich' and there will be black smoke from the exhaust until the turbo catches up to feed enough air.

Texas Diesel Guy,

I absolutely needed to know that. Thank you, thank you, thank you...

I hope you didn't take that as a slight, CR. I meant it as a compliment meaning that you aren't happy unless your engine is putting out a million horsepower and you will do whatever it takes to get it.:cool2: :ro)

Hardly dude........ 20 or 30 more HP than everyone else here would suffice!:D

I'm really hoping to prove this flash/pump combo i'm running to work well together, and if Tex would get me that Turbo, maybe prove that also.

Many here could benifit from my experiences weather negative or positive. Funding for experimentation does get expensive though! Once my engine returns there won't be any more mods done, the money tree has dried up!

CR, bolt on a HX35, just what you need. It is almost a direct bolt on. What do you have for exhaust? I could build you a downpipe that will bolt rith where the stock cat was?

With the holset, man, you will love it. The only thing then is an air box that will need. Other than that, it is simple.

If i don't get the hybrid turbo i may go for the holset and ask you to make me a downpipe if thats ok. I don't have a cat flange, the bottom of my downpipe is swaged from 3" to 3.5" then immediately to 4" all in about 6 or 8".