I have decided to go with the green keys to pick up the front and was wondering how hard they are to install?? I am going to put on the H2 wheels/tires and recal the speedo and get the front set up when done. Thanks

Check this (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1496&PN=2)

not hard at all. you can purchase the green keys at gmpartsdirect.com for about $40. you will need a 5 ton gear puller or torsion bar removal tool (modified lokking C clamp, actual GM tool), jackstands and an 18mm socket.


jack up the front so wheels are off the ground. remove the tension on the bars with the tool you chose and eventually remove the bolt and resulting stock key. reverse with green key. you can do a search and find many boards have covered this in depth. I would also suggest replacing the stock shocks at the same time.


You will also see many posts saying to just crank the existing bolts for the same effect. I have done both ways on my truck and preferred the green keys do to ride quality. I cannot explain it, but it feesl different.


Hoot can add more http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Thanks ski1, I have decided to add the greens and back off the bolts to get the height i need for the H2's.

What kind of shocks are you guys using with the green keys.Stock application or ones for lifted trucks

Theres a place that sells the kit (which I have)


They have the green keys and the Bilstein 5100s to go with them perfectly.


I dont have their contact info. off hand, but if you call Bilstein Tech. support, tell them what you are doing and they will refer you directly to the right guys. They're in Northern CA.


~If you have trouble getting what you need, PM me and I'll get you their contact info.


But to answer your question, you cannot use the yellow bilsteins, they will get ruined. Get the 5100s


BTW, even with my green keys, I had to do a decent amount of plastic trimming and they still rub now and again...


But overall, Im happy http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Why can't you use the yellow Bilsteins? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

They're not long enough. They're ok for the rear because you dont make any changes, but on the front, I blew out the upper rubber mount

Does anyone know the part # for Bilsteins for a 2wd 3500-2003 or sugestions whitch one to use with slide in camper.


Geno

They're not long enough. They're ok for the rear because you dont make any changes, but on the front, I blew out the upper rubber mount

So you get more travel with the green keys?

Well, you are lifting the front of the truck with the keys. Therefore, the length of the shock needs to be longer to be in the center of its range of motion. The yellow shocks (or stock shocks for that matter) are stretched out to where theres about 10% on the top and 90% on the bottom. So you rebound over any small bump (for me it was a damn speedbump) and it hyperextends the shock which could dismember itself and cause real damage!! Lucky for me the bilstein is a good solid shock and took the hit and just crushed the heck out of the upper rubber mount.


It seems alot of shops arent used to these minor front end lifts and think stock shocks, or stock replacements, can handle a little torsion lift. Not True!


The place that sells the key and shock kit is called:


Off Road Unlimited


818-563-DIRT

I thought there is a hard stop that prevents the control arms from hyperextending? In other words, what keeps me from blowing out my yellow Bilsteins? I have my bars cranked all the way.

Here is my suspension....
Look close and you see the Timbren which controls upward movement and above the Timbren you see the solid steel positive stop which controls downward movement. All suspension travel is controlled at these two points. How do the green keys effect what happens here? Do the green keys increase travel past the SOLID stop?
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/7FC_susp.jpg

Timbren helper stops...
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Z9C_timbren.jpg


Below is the positive stop. The more you raise the truck, the closer the upper control arm comes to it.
How does it hyper extend? When not lifted at all... stock suspension, you are much farther away from that stop. There is no upper stop except for the bumper.. I know, when a tree fell on my truck I blew out a shock by compressing the suspension to the point where the upper control arm contacted the frame bracket on top.

By lifting the truck, green keys or not, you get away from over compression but the stop does not allow hyper extension.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/BB5_lowstop.jpg

If you are blowing out shocks, I'd hate to see what else you're doing to your front end.





Edited by: hoot

i am running rancho RS9000Xs. i like them well enough, bought em for the adjustability and buy 3 get one free. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif they are the standard length and I have had zero problems. would be nice to find a shock for a 2 inch lift but I have only seen stock and 4 inch (does not mean they don't exist) I recall a post where someone fabricated a one inch spacer under the lower mount. I have not been that ambitious, would be different if I had problems.


FWIW, i will probably try the biltsteins when I replace these as I had them on my 96 Z71 and enjoyed them.


marc

I see what your saying (great pictures!)


I do recall now; The yellow Bilsteins I had were actually a bit shorter than the stock shock. I called before installing them to make sure and they said they were right. ....maybe for the 4x2 but not my truck. AND, when I installed them, I had to lift up on the a-arm to attach the top mount. So I guess they may have just been the wrong application for the yellows. I should have trusted My opinion instead of the guy that sold me the yellow shocks eh


.... I only went over a speed bump at about 10-15 mph when I mashed the rubber mount http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


The 5100s I got were much longer than the yellow and still quite a bit longer than stock. They're working out great.

Bottom line is it doesn't matter what you do to the torsion bars, physically you cannot over extend the stock shocks if you haven't installed a "real" suspension lift.

Now all you boys, look at the first picture and think about what the green keys do.

All they do is bring that upper control arm even closer to that solid travel stop. When you hit a pothole you have almost no downward travel left. Same if you hit an abrupt dip in the road doing 50 or 60 mph. That means your tires lose contact with the road.


Edited by: hoot

I know, we should all remove our green keys and crank the pi$$ out of our stock keys like you have on your truck HOOT to reach the 1.75" of lift instead of 2" with the green keys. Because cranking the pi$$ out of the stock keys is the "right way" to lift your truck. Man, what were we thinking?

By replacing the keys, you regain some of the nice suspension. I had my stock keys tweeked all the way and the front end was a damn pogostick!


I agree that a 'real' lift is definately the better way to go, but I dont want a 4" lift or a 6" lift, I just wanted enough to clear the H2 tires. I got what I wanted for a tiny fraction of the cost of a lift and its easily reversible.


And about the stops, that makes no difference; if you go over a bump large enough to cause you to hit the limiter, you would do the same thing with stock setup. On the plus side, I now have more Compression travel which is more of a concern anyway.


I have'nt had any problem bouncing the tires off the ground at all so this point is moot to me.Edited by: 2MuchFun

I know, we should all remove our green keys and crank the pi$$ out of our stock keys like you have on your truck HOOT to reach the 1.75" of lift instead of 2" with the green keys. Because cranking the pi$$ out of the stock keys is the "right way" to lift your truck. Man, what were we thinking?

You guys are funny. There is nothing anybody can say, pictures and all... you're convinced the green keys do something other than simply rotate the torsion bars?

Everything you have to work with is in the first picture... the distance the suspension can travel between the bumper and the stop.... purple black yellow white keys don't matter. For some reason you think cranking my bars with the adjustment screws is worse than using the green keys because you don't use all the threads?

Show me the magic http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I will give you this... It is possible (probable) that the ride quality is different when you have it jacked up. Not that the bars are under any more twist than stock because the same amount of weight is still sitting on them. The truck is simply sitting higher. The fact that the "static" control arm position is now at a different angle and the fact that there is more upward travel before hitting the rubber bumper, this could explain the ride quality difference. Other than that all the green keys do is give you more upward adjustment. They don't give you more "net" suspension travel. Upper and lower limits are unchanged. That's why stock shocks work.


2muchfun...

"By replacing the keys, you regain some of the nice suspension. I had my stock keys tweeked all the way and the front end was a damn pogostick!"

That is pure BS. Mine have been maxed for a year and it's not pogo at all. I'm not fighting to convince you guys that green keys don't work. They do allow more adjustment by starting off at a higher index. But the keys alone do nothing but sit there. They aren't a moving part of the supension and all they do is act like longer adustment screws. There is no diffrence between 1.75" height with the stock pork chops and 1.75 with the green keys except you have more threads to go higher. All it does is turn the bars.

"And about the stops, that makes no difference; if you go over a bump large enough to cause you to hit the limiter, you would do the same thing with stock setup."

You hit the limiter much sooner and more often with the bars jacked.

One thing I'd like to make clear... I'm not dead set against using green keys. I just don't like misinformation spread about how they work and what they do.


Detailed pics of the keys coming next.

I'm an idiot Edited by: hoot

Does anyone make a 2" lift?

hoot,


"all the green keys do is bring you closer to the travle stop", this is true. but whether you run green keys or crank yours all the way, we are both doing the same thing and suffer the same consequences http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif. I am at 2 inches and you are 1.75 inches, so hitting bumps or topping out applies to either configuration. the thing I was warned about with cranking all the way is the possibility of cracking the nut holding the bolt if it rests against the end of the threads.


i will not pretend to offer a reason, but with my mileage having tried both ways in the exact same setup on my truck, i still believe the ride is smoother http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Ditto sky1!!!!!

Hoot, have you stopped to wonder if the green keys can be installed in a manner so that the truck sits 1.75" higher than stock, instead of 2-2.5"? From your arguments it sounds like you haven't considered the fact that they CAN.


The reason the Bilstein shock topped out and broke the upper mount is because it's shorter than stock and over-extended. It's not the green keys' fault, it's the setting of the bolts. By your own argument the green keys can't hurt the stock shocks, as the suspension tops out before the shocks can overextend.

Hoot, have you stopped to wonder if the green keys can be installed in a manner so that the truck sits 1.75" higher than stock, instead of 2-2.5"? From your arguments it sounds like you haven't considered the fact that they CAN.


The reason the Bilstein shock topped out and broke the upper mount is because it's shorter than stock and over-extended. It's not the green keys' fault, it's the setting of the bolts. By your own argument the green keys can't hurt the stock shocks, as the suspension tops out before the shocks can overextend.

It's not my arguement, it's fact.

The shocks extend as the control arms rotate down. Then the control arms hit the SOLID stop. At this point you cannot extent the shocks any more no matter what keys you use. You cannot over extend the shocks by changing the keys. The stops prevent this. That is correct... green keys cannot hurt the stock shocks.

ALL of this is simple geometry if you would just look at how the system works.

And yes, you can install a different torsion bar anchor (key) in such a way as to start the truck too high and then have enough bolt thread to make the upper control arm rest on the SOLID stop. Then what do you have? Suspension that only compresses. The more you lift, the closer you get to a susp system with all compression and no extension.

Crawl under your truck. Look what the key does. It's a rotating anchor that allows you to adjust unloaded (static) position of the suspension. All a different key has is a hex hole that's clocked slightly different. That means the bar starts at a different position, in this case, the drivers side, the hex hole will be clocked slightly more counterclockwise.

It's basic geometry.

The difference is this:


When you crank the stock keys to the limit, you are putting alot more twisting force on the bar. As you yourself said 'the green keys change the index'. This is true and proves my point that the ride IS better with the re-indexed bar which is not under such severe twist.


I dont much care for being called BS when I have experienced exactly what I said I did and implied such. I do not spread misinformation, I spoke from experience. THE-FRONT-END-WAS-LIKE-A-POGO-STICK-WITH-THE-STOCK-KEYS-ADJUSTED-ALL-THE-WAY-IN.


Believe this: replacing the keys and accomplishing the same height gain is much better than cranking the stock keys to the limit. <---Thats a period at the end of that sentence.

The difference is this:


When you crank the stock keys to the limit, you are putting alot more twisting force on the bar. As you yourself said 'the green keys change the index'. This is true and proves my point that the ride IS better with the re-indexed bar which is not under such severe twist.


I dont much care for being called BS when I have experienced exactly what I said I did and implied such. I do not spread misinformation, I spoke from experience. THE-FRONT-END-WAS-LIKE-A-POGO-STICK-WITH-THE-STOCK-KEYS-ADJUSTED-ALL-THE-WAY-IN.


Believe this: replacing the keys and accomplishing the same height gain is much better than cranking the stock keys to the limit. <---Thats a period at the end of that sentence.

NOOOOOO NOT TRUE.

This is what a lot of people don't understand. There is no more force on the bars when fully cranked or fully uncranked, as long as you aren't against any of the stops. The force that twists the bars is the trucks weight. Basically you are floating on the "twisting force" of the torsion bars. Adjusting the bars does not twist them more than the weight of the truck already has them twisted. The truck rises as you adjust (turn, not twist) the bars. Now if you add weight to the truck, the suspension drops some. This WILL twist the bars more. That's because the twisting is coming from the suspension end and the keys do not rotate.

Picture this.

Set up a torsion bar on a bench by itself.
With one end held stationary (key end) and a breaker type bar on the other, you impose twist by turning the other end. This loads the bar with a certain amount of torsion that can hold a specified amount of weight.

Now lets say we have 1000 lbs of weight on a breaker bar. The bar twists so much and supports that weight. This is the static load.

Now on the stationary end... this would be the key end. What happens if you turn that end? Does the 1000lb weight go up? It sure does. The relationship between the front and back end of the bar follow each other. Only more weight will twist the bar more.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Sorry you guys.... as you can see we're in a tiff here (me too). I know I'm right can't find a smiley sticking it's tongue out.

My bars are cranked to the max and I ain't pogoinEdited by: hoot

But the leverage is reduced between the tire and the pivot point on the bar. The geometric angle is changed.......??? Can you tell Im reaching here? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif I'll admit not to knowing what all the influences are so I cant say for sure what it is.


BUT BUT BUT! I can tell you for fact, from experience, that when I changed the keys, the ride got MUCH better.

Hoot has admitted that it's quite possible to see a better ride by using the green keys.. He still thinks it's better to crank the bolts with the stock keys instead, for some weird reason. There's really no convincing him, and he won't try installing the green keys himself, he'd rather just make comments about how awful they are and how they are the wrong way to get lift from your front end.. Even though he's done the EXACT same thing by cranking his bolts (exactly the same according to his argument).


Hoot is the one spreading the misinformation, saying the green keys are the antichrist. They seem to offer a better ride than having your bolts cranked. They're no harder on your front end components than if you were to have your bolts cranked instead. They're cheap and removable. According to Hoot, they're evil.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Hoot has admitted that it's quite possible to see a better ride by using the green keys.. He still thinks it's better to crank the bolts with the stock keys instead, for some weird reason. There's really no convincing him, and he won't try installing the green keys himself, he'd rather just make comments about how awful they are and how they are the wrong way to get lift from your front end.. Even though he's done the EXACT same thing by cranking his bolts (exactly the same according to his argument).


Hoot is the one spreading the misinformation, saying the green keys are the antichrist. They seem to offer a better ride than having your bolts cranked. They're no harder on your front end components than if you were to have your bolts cranked instead. They're cheap and removable. According to Hoot, they're evil.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

No they aren't evil and they do allow you to go higher than the stock keys. They aren't any harder on your front end components than stock bolts "cranked" unless you raise it higher than the suspension was designed to run.

Hint: The idler, pitman, centerlink and tie rods are weak at stock levels.

They work BUT they put your suspension into a mostly compression capability. They don't do anything special as far as torsion bar loading is concerned.

2muchfun,

Leverage isn't part of the equation here. Not enough angular change to be significant.



Edited by: hoot

Heck, Im gonna throw in the towel on this issue.


.......but.my.truck.rides.better.with.the.keys! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Tongue.gif

Same here! Everyone do whatever the hell you want. I'm keeping my green keys, and if I get a new truck I'll be putting the green keys on it too! The ride is fabulous. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Oh My .... what have I done http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif

Hopefully we all learned something about T-bars and how the suspension works.

It's all in fun Hoot, I should have put a smilie in my post.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

I suspected that... my post was tongue in cheek too.

Man, this green key debate crap is getting so old. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

i am running rancho RS9000Xs. i like them well enough, bought em for the adjustability and buy 3 get one free. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif they are the standard length and I have had zero problems. would be nice to find a shock for a 2 inch lift
You did, and you already bought them. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif All Rancho shocks, including the 5000, RSX and 9000, are for trucks with 0"-2" of lift.

So cranking up your torsion bars is considered a lift?


Stab me

At least point there's probably some who would like to! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

At least point there's probably some who would like to! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Some people hate being wrong http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

You guys are lucky I'm not as stubborn as you guys. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

IMHO It's a lift, just not a professional lift. Unless you buy them from one of those scam companies on ebay that repaint the green keys and sell them as their own product.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Hoot,





Do you think the Timbrens help on the torsion lifted truck, does it eliminate the pogo, or smooth out the empty ride (no plow)?


Did you shim yours for contact with the control arm?


What would you do differently?





Michael

I had no issues. Didn't have the green keys. My bars were cranked about 5-6 turns. All the timbrens do is not compress as much as the original bump stops and helped keep the truck from compressing too much with the added weight.

Since I no longer own the truck I have a set for sale.

$100 shipped.

I know this is an old post.

But to those who claim to have OVER-EXTENDED their Bilstein front shocks..... How?

Jack up frame of truck until the tires leave the garage floor and upper A-Arms hit the stops. Thats as much extension as your EVER going to get. If they don't hit the stops (the shock stops it before it hits) then there is a BIG problem.

If not, you'll be fine.


As for the green keys....I totally agree with HOOT.

All they're good for is if you want MORE lift than cranking the stock bars 1.75". Much more than that and you'll be at the A-Arm stops, and like HOOT said, there will be NO extension. Only compression. Not to mention a severe CV joint angle.

Tom..... it's magic http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Hoot,


Do they improve empty ride??


Lawnboy


The shock manufacturer states that OEM style shock are the stop. If you have OEM shocks or bilstein OEM, then your wheels (control arms) shouldn't extend to the plate, should be hanging by the shock. Only repeating what an expert stated.

Hoot,


Do they improve empty ride??


Lawnboy


The shock manufacturer states that OEM style shock are the stop. If you have OEM shocks or bilstein OEM, then your wheels (control arms) shouldn't extend to the plate, should be hanging by the shock. Only repeating what an expert stated.

I don't know... I never used them. It's possible that repositioning the static position of the suspension, which puts you at a different extension on the shock, could hav an effect.

I find it hard to believe any shock is used as a suspension stop.

[QUOTE=masterp2]
I find it hard to believe any shock is used as a suspension stop.





Me too. Bilstein told me that this morning.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Z9C_timbren.jpg


Who's truck is this?????? Aren't these timbren's? WHOSEVER truck this is, how did the timbrens affect empty ride? Were the torsions cranked over stock height? Were shims used?? Pulling teeth here.

Well since I finally got my new truck I had to crawl under it to gawk in amazement at its glory. After all it will never get as good as it is right now.


With that being said I actually looked at the stops before reading this post and have to agree with hoot. It dosent make sense, how does the indexing point change the rate of the spring tension of the bar? It can effect it if the bar is bottomed out against a solid stop, and crancke more, this would increase the spring rate.


I have a solution for this debate. Even with as cheap as the green keys are I can test them for someone who is willing to help me (uncle sam don't pay as good as you would think). My truck is stock except for a juice box and hopefully this weekend nicktane kit. If someone would like to send me thier green keys i can test them, I will video tape a weight hanging from a scale with the stock keys at the stock height, then lifted height, then I will do the same for the green keys. If what everyone says is true then the green keys at stock height should be really mushy and be revieled on the tape.





I am not trying to scam anyone out of anything and if anyone is in the Vegas area we can do it togeather. I just want to offer my stock truck and efforts for the better of the board.





Chuck

Not sure what the weight test is gonna show or how it would even work for that matter but I did a side by side test when I installed the green keys in my truck. The green keys clearly have a smoother ride vs the stock bars cranked. Not stock ride but no where near the harsh ride of fully cranked bars. I agree it doesn't change the spring rate of the bar just where the suspension rides vs where the stock suspension ride. With the keys it rides in the lower portion of the travel. Being indexed it takes less cranking to get it to that ride height which results in a little smoother ride.

Being indexed it takes less cranking to get it to that ride height which results in a little smoother ride.

the keys dont change the rate of the t-bar, they only change how much thread is showing on the adjuster bolt....

take a pic of 1.5" crank on the stockers then replace with green keys to achieve 1.5" the hex on the t-bar will be in the same rotational location as the stock keys, only the bolt wont be as deep as with the stock keys
which in theory will get you higher but you will just top out your front susp so they're nearly pointless unless your looking for that last .25" of height

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

03GMC2500HD


Could you look at your susp and tell me:





At rest, empty, how far is your yellow rubber jounce from the A-arm/support arm that it sits on?Edited by: masterp2

I cranked my bars and have installed rancho shocks. I can't imagine the ride being any better than what I'm experiencing right now (no pogo pogo). Suppose I've an IB (iron butt)? I tow a light travel trailer w/o an issue and really have a difficult time following this 'how many angels can dance on the head of green keys' thread.

Masterp2, sorry i have been out of town. I looked and the lifting has seperated the jounce and the control arm by just over 1/4". I think stock they are very close, correct. I think it would be easy to make a 1/4" spacer if needed.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Frt_susp.1.jpg

"I think stock they are very close, correct. I think it would be easy to make a 1/4" spacer if needed."


If you are at 2" of lift (sig block), how do you explain 1/4" spacing? I'd think you'd be up 1-2" of spacing, without a shim or spacer??? That doesn't make sense.

Yes it is 2" higher than stock heigth. 39.5" at flare lip stock, 41.5" to lip lifted. Took the pic last night????


The jounce is close to the pivot point so not much gap would be present with a couple inches drop at the end of the arm I guess. For example, take a 18" long straight edge and with one end touching a flat surface and the other end raised 2". At 4" from the pivot point it is only about 1/4" off the flat surface. to get 2" of gap the end would have to raise up around 10.5".

Makes sense, sorry for the doubt.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Honestly I was expecting more gap than I found too!

I have my factory keys maxed out on one side and my upper a-arm is hitting that metal stop.


I am off my yellow bouncer by about 3/4"-1".


03GMC2500HD,


It looks like there is no dirt on your upper a-arm where the stop may be hitting, you see that? Are you hitting and just don't hear it?

Gert that is where I stuck my hand between there last week when you or someone was asking about the clearance between there. This is the pic I should have showed you when I answered you then. There is no hitting the stop.

ChevyHDGert


I hope you don't plan to go off-road.





03GMC2500HD


Photo did not post

Sorry I phrased it like that but i was reffering to the pic i posted above. Guess it did look like I forgot something! Thanks

Masterp2, sorry i have been out of town. I looked and the lifting has seperated the jounce and the control arm by just over 1/4". I think stock they are very close, correct. I think it would be easy to make a 1/4" spacer if needed.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Frt_susp.1.jpg





We may have an answer. If Hoot has or HAD 1.75" and Green Key people are 2" and there is a 1/4" between the bump stops after the 2" lift that could be the softer ride. As it does not hit the bump stops as hard. Eventhough they are not bump stops they are dampners. Answer MAYBE?

Look at 03GMC2500HD's pic. He has 1" to the metal lower stop. Green keys don't change the spacing between the upper and lower control arm.


I have my own 2Cents on rough ride with torsion lifts. Simple math. When you lift 1", you reduce allowable suspension travel 2" (you reduce up AND down travelhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif (for the purpose of ride quality). That's 25% of this front end. Lift 2" and 50% or more is gone, and so is the articulation. If compression is the only available travel (that's what torsion lifting does), and you are displaced from the yellow jouncer 1/4", plan on abrupt deceleration for the suspension with less travel, it has nowhere to go. Make the problem worse and displace (Lift) your control arm a greater distance, 1", from the yellow jouncer (this is not a stop folks, it is part of the compliant suspension, engineers designed it to rest on the control arm) and it's like not being in your seatbelt when you hit a brick wall, you get to decelerate when you slam into the steering wheel controls. And then the rebound, which is not there, you dialed it out. Gone is the ride, the traction (if one wheel compresses, another must extend, or traction is lost) and possibly your shocks depending on what you are running. The wheel slams to an abrupt stop after 1" of acceleration. This is not rocket science, but it deserves explanation. HOOT is entirely correct and there is no PFM with green Keyshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif. I don't mean to be offensive, but some folks here would benefit from a course in psychology. The physical world does not change, despite how much you believe it. I'm sorry if this sounds condescending.


Please stop buying the green keys, and put the money into a real lift for the sake of articulation, traction, and ride quality.


Better yet, let's all get together and come up with a dirt cheap 2"-3" front end lift (H2 compatable) that increases articulation, for those of us trying to get real rubber under these trucks, which GM didn't plan on. Any thought on that? C'mon techy types, let's fill this void.Edited by: masterp2

"Better yet, let's all get together and come up with a dirt cheap 2"-3" front end lift that increases articulation, for those of us trying to get real rubber under these trucks, which GM didn't plan on. Any thought on that? C'mon techy types, let's fill this void."
I would go for a 2-3" lift all the way around.

And the rear can be dealt with any way one see's fit, block, springs, bags. The front remains the challenge.Edited by: masterp2

Look at 03GMC2500HD's pic. He has 1" to the metal lower stop. Green keys don't change the spacing between the upper and lower control arm.


I have my own 2Cents on rough ride with torsion lifts. Simple math. When you lift 1", you reduce allowable suspension travel 2" (you reduce up AND down travelhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif (for the purpose of ride quality). That's 25% of this front end. Lift 2" and 50% or more is gone, and so is the articulation. If compression is the only available travel (that's what torsion lifting does), and you are displaced from the yellow jouncer 1/4", plan on abrupt deceleration for the suspension with less travel, it has nowhere to go. Make the problem worse and displace (Lift) your control arm a greater distance, 1", from the yellow jouncer (this is not a stop folks, it is part of the compliant suspension, engineers designed it to rest on the control arm) and it's like not being in your seatbelt when you hit a brick wall, you get to decelerate when you slam into the steering wheel controls. And then the rebound, which is not there, you dialed it out. Gone is the ride, the traction (if one wheel compresses, another must extend, or traction is lost) and possibly your shocks depending on what you are running. The wheel slams to an abrupt stop after 1" of acceleration. This is not rocket science, but it deserves explanation. HOOT is entirely correct and there is no PFM with green Keyshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif. I don't mean to be offensive, but some folks here would benefit from a course in psychology. The physical world does not change, despite how much you believe it. I'm sorry if this sounds condescending.


Please stop buying the green keys, and put the money into a real lift for the sake of articulation, traction, and ride quality.





This is the master theory that solves all coming from someone who thought there should be 1"-2" of gap between the Jounce and the LCA if you lifted 2"!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


I still can't figure out how people who have never even tried the items seem to think they know so much. Calling everyone who uses them and that have positive things to say about them liars and know nothing idiots is rediculous. Spend $50 and 50min work and see for yourself then you can come back here and appologise for the garbage you just wrote. If you don't like them or don't believe they make a difference, fine, no problem, but don't come on here telling people to stop buying them because of your mumbo jumbo theory. You think these indexed keys just started being used? I had some on a S-10 4x4 back in 1993. They are nothing new and even major suspension mfgs like Superlift have them.


I don't have a Wester's PCM on my truck but I don't go around telling people they don't make any difference and they are a waste of money. You know why, because I don't have one and I don't have any room to talk about whether it adds performance or not. My opinion would mean squat!


Its OK to come out and say you don't

WOW


I know I'm not the first guy you slammed for suggesting this, I won't argue, you win. But you could be a little less abrasive. I have read many of your posts and appreciate them, and your dogma. I am not here for controversy, I enjoy this forum and if you are offended, sorry you don't like people with theorieshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif. Not being an arse, just don't have the debate in me, and I'm sure you don't want to repeat yourself.


I would love to see some comparison done, though. Maybe I will do it. Anyone want to send me the keys? I will set up a comparison that is honest, accurate, quantifiable, scientific and leave no doubt. You can set up the criteria for ride comfort, and I'll spring for the accelerometer and the egg. If I was closer to you, you could bring the beer, oh well can't have everything. I'll be glad to be wrong.


Moving on http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif, since Timbrens have been discussed,


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/DF7_timbrens.png


the part listed last, 180-75, is the rubber spring for the kit in our trucks (front). These kits seem to be aligned for solving problems with sagging torsions with variable front loads, like snow plows for a few months, then they come off. For the spring to do this, isn't the ride going to be pretty stiff once the truck is unloaded? Then I noticed the spring above it is exactly the same dimension but more compliant, it has a softer durometer apparently. I investigated and found it used in lighter applications where arm geometry dictates a more compliant spring. Question for those that have used Timbrens, or thinking about it.


Wouldn't this make an attractive alternative for those not loading up the front end, a better empty ride quality possibly?


Timbren said they can customize a kit, including spacers for those with torsion lifts. I was thinking of a 1/4", and 1/2" spacer (that could also be combined). Thoughts?