Well, I decided to change my fuel filter a little early figuring it will be a bit cooler around here in another 4,000 miles. Needless to say I am a bit concerned. There were lots of sediment or rust particles in the bottom of the filter and in the water sensor thingy (technical term http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif). I am now convinced a second filter is necessary. Next question is, whether this crap can best be taken care of post oem or pre oem....or will it not matter. Hopefully this doesn't start another fuel filter debate. I just wish I knew where all that crap came from...the lines?? Tank??


Here are some pics:


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/EC5_P1010005.JPG


http://dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/A29_P1010007.JPG


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/544_P1010012.JPG

well i wouldn't say you need another filter. it looks like your filter is doing a good job and keeping it out of your engine

Looks like you and I have been buying from the same pump. That is exactly how mine looked. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Hey Bob!


So, did you make as much of a mess changing your filter as I did just priming mine? Based on what yours looks like, I might just change mine now at 5300 miles.


Today had mine out for about 100 miles on the highway. It seems to run a bit smoother, a little quieter and my mileage came back at 18 mpg doing mostly 75-80 mph. Definately better! So far, very happy with my install. Oh yeah, even flooring it getting onto I-25 could not see any smoke out of the tailpipe. Weird, Huh. Can't believe that the cat filter makes such a difference.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


Later,


John

Are you running any additive ??

Mac

Mac,


I don't believe that he has run any additive. (Correct me if I'm wrong here 4x4man). We were talking about this yesterday whil he was helping me with a nictane kit install on my truck. I ended up hooking him up with a bottle of FPPF, as he was interested in the benefits of additives.


John

OK, That does it....


My filter has only 10,000 (rolled tonight) on it and it's coming off tomorrow......


I'll see if I can get it cut open for a look inside. I've been running Power Service pretty religiously since day 1.....


Later....

4X4man .... Having taken a filter off of my truck that proved to be similar to yours, I have become convinced that some sort of post OEM filtration makes the most sense. As stated above, your OEM filter did at least part of its job, it apparently removed water from your fuel. That moisture sitting on a metal surface apparently caused that metal to rust. This would be troubling but probably OK if our OEM filters provided true 2 micron filtration and the end caps of some filters haven't been found to be loose. To my way of thinking, pre OEM filtration can be a very good thing but if the OEM filter that comes after the prefilter can recontaminate the fuel, you still have a problem. ... Jim

CS-DMAX


Fortunately I didn't make much of a mess. It only took around 10 or some pumps until a stream of fuel came out the bleader screw. Luckily I had some paper towels in the area to sop it up. I made more of a mess cutting that darn filter open!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


MAC-


I was not running any additive religously. I did use one bottle of Power Service in the Spring, but that was it. As John stated I purchased a bottle of FPPF from him to get the added benifits. Not to mention mine makes a slight audiable knock at idle that his doesn't, so maybe my injectors are a little dirty and could use a good cleaning....not to mention some clean fuel to go with it!!


JEBar-


Thanks for the info. That is my main concern, if I pre filter the fuel, will the OEM contaminate?? Funny never thought I would ever ask whether the OEM fuel FILTER would ever contaminate a system...hehehehe


Bob

As has been discussed, the #1 cause for fuel system warranty DISallow, from my experience, has been the presence of corrosion in the fuel system. The photo above is corrosion. The corrosion did not stop with the filter; if it exists in the filter, it exists elsewhere in the fuel system. Dealers used to be much more accomodating back in the 6.5TD days but I understand that after a few service centers got their hands severely slapped for being too lenient on fuel system warranty repair, this is the first thing a tech does; look for visible corrosion in the fuel filter. As we have discussed, all diesel fuel has some level of entrained water; if it is not chemically 'locked up', prevented from seperating, it will cause fuel system corrosion. Period.. Moreover having rust/corrosion particulates present in the system is self-generated abrasive wear for the pump and injectors. This is why I am such a proponent of an emulsifying fuel additive such as Primrose 405 or FPPF, as an insurance policy against free water/corrosion. The fuel filter/fuel system corrosion shown so clearly in the photo was the result of following GM's recommendation of NOT using fuel additization...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Edited by: Georgecls

George-


Thanks for the insight, it is appreciated. When I filled up last night, I added FPPF, so hopefully I am on the right track to clean the system up and prevent further problems. At this point if I can get the corrosion under control by getting the water "locked up" using FPPF, would it matter whether I did a pre or post oem fuel filter install?? I can't believe GM would lead us down this path of destruction....grrrrr


Thanks again for the info!


Bob

Regarding a pre or post fuel filter install. With respect to free water control/corrosion prevention, as long as entrained water is dealt with, either location is fine. Again, the emulsifying capabilities of both Primrose 405 and FPPF are limited to controlling normal amounts of entrained water, i.e. less than 100 ppm. A large slug of water cannot be emulsified and will hopefully be captured, for the most part, via the water separator.
George Morrison

Thanks George!!

It will take a while, but here is my plan of attack on this. I have been running stanadyne since day one, and have 5300 miles on my truck. I just installed the nictane kit, and also have switched to FPPF. This week I am going to replace my OEM filter, cut it open and have a look. I will post pics at that time. Then I am going to go about another 5000 miles (this time with FPPF and nictane), and replace the OEM again.


I sure hope that if I have corrosion in the first filter, that there is little/none in the second. Time will tell!


John

Regarding the performance, fuel mileage increases that are being reported with the CAT filter installations. As example, someone is marketing a 'fuel treatment device' that is right out of strings and mirrors land in that the diesel fuel is passed over rare earth metal (not a magnet) which causes increased reactivity of the fuel molecules (again, this is black art) resulting in some levels of increased fuel efficiencies especially on older, non-electronic diesel engines. (not our Duramax engines) Given that something as obscure as this device works, filtering out/removing non-burning, ash producing, flame propagation restricting particles from our very sophisticated diesel engines can provide significant increased efficiencies in the combusion cycle.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Thanks for the explanation George.. i guess any filter will look like that if water is allowed to sit in it? It does make sense that location won't matter. After all, the same water collects in all of them to a degree. Now that we've got everyone up on the need for a second filter, they just need to use some good additive (like primrose) to ensure good fuel system life...


4x4man. thank you so much for posting those pictures! hopefully people will take George's advice and run a good quality additive. this may just be the evidence some needed. i've cut all of my filters open before, but i've never seen anything like that. I guess my station has less water than yours (just more dirt). http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gifEdited by: Diesel Power

Regarding "I guess any filter will look like that if water is allowed to sit in it?" Yes, that is correct.. Unfortunately, corrosion potential goes beyond fuel filter to anywhere in the "system" that diesel fuel is allowed to sit for a period will result in free water settle, resulting in corrosion over time.. If we do not chemically "lock up" entrained water, loosely emulsified water will settle. An agressive emulsifer will not only prevent free water settle out but surround the water molecule with a lubricant surface enabling it to pass through the injector system safely. There is just no way of knowing what level of water exists in a particular fuel load; one load may have 40 ppm of water while another may be at 98 ppm. The higher the water content the more susceptible we are to free water settle and resulting corrosion, potential system damage.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Well Nick, I have made up my mind and after seeing the install on John's truck (CS-DMAX) I am going with your kit. I guess it is time to place my order. Is it best to call you, or order online??


I guess I just wanted to be part of the out of site out of mind club and it won't happen to me type of attitude. I think I will keep my fuel filter, so if I get any crap from the dealer (if I ever have a problem with my truck) I can show them the crap GM is allowing...no additive's gives you this.....EVERYWHERE!! Now why should I trust the OEM to make sure everything stays clean and damage free when it is proven it won't???


Thanks,


BobEdited by: 4x4man

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/66.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)


Mackin





http://www.smileycentral.com/sigpc=ZSzeb005 (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb005)

I've still been sitting on the fence about additional filtration, reading all the posts I can. The recent posts about corrosion seem to be one of the best arguments yet for post OEM filtration. Even brand new Racor filters that have not been used yet seem to be candidate for corrosion. Based on what I understand from George's comments, treating the fuel may be just as (if not more) important than additional filtration, since the corrosion can appear anywhere in the fuel path.

hello all

This is driving me nuts now.. Reasons I run a fleet of powerstrokes around 3,000 and we don't have a back up filter.. No major repairs to our 7.3's..

Now we switch to the Duramax units and all i keep reading is how bad our main filters are and to add a backup up one

In 2 years our duramax fleet will be 2,000 units.. Are we talking about to add them to all our trucks.. Thats big bucks again.. Plus more dollars to change them

From steve
Fleet owner

Steve,


George would be the best person to answer your question, but am i correct in asuming your PowerStrokes use lower-pressure injection systems? i believe they do if they are not all 2003 models. again, George should be able to give you a definitive answer. Either way, many people have reported a better running truck, as well as better MPG after switching to secondary filtration. You may want to pilot it on a few trucks and see how it does. it may just well pay for itself in the long run!





Nick

Steve,
You are correct in that the Powerstroke has a pretty good OEM fuel filter installation that yields a 90%+ filtration efficiency in the 5 to 10 micron size range, albeit a bit small, depending on fuel source quality. International/Ford did their homework. (or learned very early on the affect of not providing effective ultra fine filtration) As Nick suggests, you may want to pilot the CAT type secondary filter on some vehicles. I think you would find the secondary filters on the Duramax will more than pay for themselves in the long run.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Edited by: Georgecls

Hello all and George

OK will try a filter system on our personal rig now.. Can the Dealer Buck us on this.. Because its on the fuel system and vold us..

I'm looking for a real good filtering system with a primer
and a heater .. We go upstate ny where the temps hit -30 or lower .. Who makes a the best setup

From steve
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Question.gif

Hello all and George

OK will try a filter system on our personal rig now.. Can the Dealer Buck us on this.. Because its on the fuel system and vold us..

I'm looking for a real good filtering system with a primer
and a heater .. We go upstate ny where the temps hit -30 or lower .. Who makes a the best setup

From steve
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Question.gif





If you are buying as many vehicles as your fleet and your dealership gives you and hasle on adding MORE fuel filtration, you better find a new dealer. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif

Hello all

would anyone like me to send them one of our filters when we change our 1st one to cut open ... I think will do our personal rig soon.. We also buy are fuel from one Sorce so this would be a good test

Will pay to ship

From steve

smartfix, what about doing a fuel analysis before and after? This would help convince the people making the decisions.

i would recommend you send it to George Morrison. He is the fuel expert and will give you an honest opinion of what you have.

hello all

I found this filter setup that takes out all water

http://www.dieselsitetoo.com/product.asp?3=101

Can we get feed back for this unit ..

From steve

CS-DMAX


I'm in Colorado Springs also. Where are you buying your FPPF from?


Dale

Bought a case from Kennedy Diesel. If you want a bottle or two, send me a PM. Will be out of town until the 20th, going to the Grand Rapids get together!!!!


John

[QUOTE=4x4man]

CS-DMAX


Fortunately I didn't make much of a mess. It only took around 10 or some pumps until a stream of fuel came out the bleader screw. Luckily I had some paper towels in the area to sop it up. I made more of a mess cutting that darn filter open!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


MAC-


Thanks for the post, I just bought a LuberFiner fuel filter [LFF8736] and intend on changing mine for the 1st time at 15000 miles. I just ran onto this forum and think it is great. I don't have the service manual and am wanting to know what steps are involved with changing the fuel filter on the Dmax and hopeing that you or someone can post these steps. I mean:
- Where are the bleeder valves?
- Did you pre-fill the filter or just let the fuel pump do it's thing? (I'd heard that air in the line for a diesel is a no-no ... but that was back years ago working on a tractor).
- Is there anything that needs to be reset?
- What do you use to lube the O-rings that come with the filter?
- Any special lube needed for the threaded parts?
- Any precautions ... like a very large bucket/pan under the work area ?
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Yours & other's insight would be very helful.
Thx,
Bill http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

Bill-


Welcome to the site!! Here are some answers to your questions. The bleader valve is located directly above the fuel filter. It is a black plastic screw that is right next to the primer pump on top of the housing. I did not pre fill my filter with fuel. I put the new filter on, opened the bleader about 1/2 turn and pumped the primer pump until fuel ran out the bleader screw, then tighten it up. Nothing needs to be reset. I used some 30 weight oil on the o-rings and nothing on the threads. Precautions....I would use a gallon size zip lock baggie to catch the diesel as it comes out when taking the filter off. If the diesel hits the coating on the frame, it will take it right off, so be careful.


Check out the get together forums, there is a dyno day coming up on Nov 8th in Denver, a few of us are gonna show up and join the fun (even if it is a ford thing, they said we could come!!).


Bob

Kansas Bill


I recently changed my first fuel filter along with installing Kennedy's Mega. I removed the fender well which was a moderate pain, but makes draining/catching fuel from the OEM fuel filter easier. I used an emty one gallon ice cream bucket to catch the fuel. I did not spill a drop, until I got to priming the filter. A shop rag placed aroung the bleeder screw will help stop the mess.


USE A 1/2 INCH NUT DRIVER TO OPEN AND CLOSE THE PLASTIC BLEED SCREW.


I would not use a screw driver, as the plastic bleeder appears very suseptable to damage. If you use a 1/2 socket and ratchet, just make it snug; do not use German torque - "Gooten Tight" - to secure the bleeder.

Thanks for your help, guys. One last question: where is the primer pump located? If left to me, I'd probably try to turn on the ignition and expect the elec fuel pump prime the filter.

4x4man [Bob] wrote about a Dyno day coming up in Denver ... thanks for the heads up. I will add it to the calendar and try to make it. I see you're in Aurora ... I'm in Highlands Ranch and work near Centennial airport.

Thanks again,

Bill

Bill, the primer pump is on the filter body. It is the metal cylinder sticking up. Black bleeder screw is there also. Use a 1/2 wrench instead of a screwdriver.


You'll be waiting a long time the the electric pump to prime the filter. There isn't one!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

KansasBill


Eric from Grand Rapids posted the step by step procedure he uses to change the OEM filter without removing the fender well. Lots of pictures. He does not drain it prior to removing it.


He describes the sequence here http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1579&PN=1 in the "do it yourself" section


ponz