I originally posted something under loss of power and warranty issues. GM Corporate (not dealership) finished reviewing the event recordings regarding my loss of power problem. Although I will not meet with them until Monday, the service writer gave me a little heads up regarding their findings. I will be meeting with the service manager or the dealership, a gm factory rep, and the gm district technical manager.


According to the service writer, I am going to be told that their are computer problems and glitches and their finding is that is was caused by Hypertech and thus I need to replace my computer which will not be covered under warranty. I originally began with this problem at 31,000 miles and now my truck has 44,000 miles. I will not lay down for this, but they are going to put it in writing that it was caused by Hypertech software. I received this information to late on Friday my time, to call hypertech, and find out their position. I certainly will keep everyone posted as this may be the start of something for GM on modifications.

thorco69


Sorry about your problem ... But live and learn ...


Let this be a lesson to all you that think it's OK to volunteer info and tell your GM service provider that your running a BOX regardless if their OK in the beginning, or sell the devices ....They'll STOP trouble shooting and point the finger ... Scapegoat policy ....





Mac Edited by: Mackin

thorco69


Sorry about your problem ... But live and learn ...


Let this be a lesson to all you that think it's OK to volunteer info and tell your GM service provider that your running a BOX regardless if their OK in the beginning, or sell the devices ....They'll STOP trouble shooting and point the finger ... Scapegoat policy ....





Mac There was another incident, where a member on another site stated that he had his warranty voided by Ford because he was running a Ford dealer installed box, he was on vacation when he broke down in another state and the truck was towed to a Ford dealer, guess what, they seen the box and voided his warranty on the spot, when he said he bought it from a Ford dealer and they installed it, he was told to bad its not alright with them or Ford. Edited by: keystonekid

GM has got ya on this one... Programmer will bite ya now that higher ups are involved.... Got one in now that GM found the box on while I was on vacation....Oops!

GM has got ya on this one... Programmer will bite ya now that higher ups are involved.... Got one in now that GM found the box on while I was on vacation....Oops!


Mine is stock when I bring it in, right down to the air filter box.....


Only mod is tires and gauges.





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gifNYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax

Whatever GM's position is, if they can't prove to me within the guidlines set down by both federal and state law, rest assured they will know that I will take them to court. If they are not to blame, then I will attempt to get Hypertech to pay for it, and if not, I will do the same to them. I appreciate everyones opinion, and even though GM is probably wrong in their position, I can guarantee all that I will never take another vehicle to the dealer with any kind of engine mods. The problems and delays caused are just too much.


Maybe unlike most people to this site, I am a professional person, who along with a partner own a company will sales of more than $60 million annualy. I was a practicing accontant at one time, and have been in complex litigation before with the likes of Cox Communications, Shell Oil, and now Exxon/Mobil. I have either won these cases or they have settled to my benefit. And please, I am not bragging, just to let people know, that if you are in the right, have patience, and either money to hire a good lawyer, or make a good contigency deal with a law firm, you can win against the big guys.


They vary rarely allow a case to the jury. In California we have a benefit, that states cases must be to trial within one year. Even complex cases get to trial within two years. My companies spends more than $400,000 annually on legal fees for various reasons.


I am sure I will be able to find other people who would be willing to join my lawsuit, especially if I put up all the money, and/or make a deal with a law firm on contigency. Believe me, I would rather not do this, just resolve my problem, but after more than a year of problems, enough is enough.


Again to all who may read this, I am not unhappy with my Duramax, it is the best riding truck, and towing truck I have ever had. Nor do the problems bother me. That's business. It is the handling of those problems, and time involved which is unacceptable. Ford did not recall their nearly 66,000 power strokes, and buy back 1500 of them without first someone filing a lawsuit against them. It is just the way it is with big businesss.


I have the rare luxury of dealing with these kind of issues, but if my experience with mods and dealerships helps to inform all about making sure your vehicle is taken into the dealer stock, then it was worth it.

That is enlightening. We will want to follow your activities w/great interest of course. Its thru people like you that have the ability but more importantly the willingness to lock horns w/the big boys that benefits the whole community. Do keep us posted.


http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


Edited by: ShumDit

That's unfortunate, but we all have to remember who holds the cards in the warranty deck...GM. We have a real aggressive GM Service Rep that services our Chevrolet Dealership, and I've seen warranties blocked without a blink of an eye. If we get caught with a power enhancing modification and it does cause a problem, lets face it, we're gonna have to pay. Thorco, I hope you can prove to them that the hypertech didn't cause the problem. We had a customer that hypertech'd his 8.1 gas motor (on his own) and it caused the PCM to go bonkers...guess who payed?...him! GM proved that the hypertech zinged his PCM to failure and denied a warranty claim just on the PCM, not the entire truck (thankfully) We all have to be prepared.

I might get flamed for this, but let me play devils advocate for a minute. What if the Hypertech did cause the problem? Should GM be responsible for footing the bill? I am not standing up for GM, and I am not saying mods are bad (just look @ my sig. line, I have many), but even if you "return" your truck to stock before bringing it in for work, I do not think GM (or any company) should be responsible IF, AND ONLY IF, the problem was due to a mod. Now if you have a problem that is common among similar type vehicles, or obviously has nothing to do with a mod., then they should definately fix it under warranty, no questions asked. Part of the reason these (and all other products) are high priced is the potential warranty cost and/or potential liability costs that may arise, even if it is not a legitimate warranty issue. For example, how many guys have had tranny issues due to increased torque/hp from boxes/programmers, removed them, and then had it fixed under "warranty"? These are things that can have an affect on the bottom line. Sure, GM is a huge company, and can probably afford it, but it will always get passed on to the ultimate consumer in the form of higher prices. I think you should keep the heat on GM to PROVE it was the Hypertech, and, if so, forward the results to Hypertech and make a claim with them. Too many of us are quick to blame GM or a dealer/service writer/tech for problems we just might have caused ourself, and just because they cannot "see" the problem causer (i.e. programmer, etc) at the time of diagnosis, does'nt mean it should be fixed just because it is still under warranty. Thorco69, I am not saying you are trying to put one over on GM, it is obvious you are not, and are willing to go back to Hypertech if need be, but your problem just got me thinking about warranty versus mods, and all the things that happen. At some point, we all need to take some responsibility for our own actions. We are all big boys and know at some point, you have to pay to play.
DinoMaxhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

thorco69



Glad to hear your capable monetarily and mentally to go up against big corporations such as GM ... Must aren't capable, I look forward to the resolution ....
No matter what is written in these pages don't feel slighted in anyway and please keep us informed .....

I mean this in all sincerity, Good Luck ....

Everyone should refresh yourself by reading the manufactures warranty on all items "purchased" including that GM vehicle parked in your driveway .....

Let this be a lesson to all you that think it's OK to volunteer info and tell your GM service provider that your running a BOX regardless if their OK in the beginning, or they sell the devices .... They'll STOP trouble shooting and point the finger ... Scapegoat policy ....



Mac

For all of you who might question my motives if you read my post, you would have read that if GM and again that is a big if can prove to me under the guidelines establish by the Fed and CARB in California, that Hypertech is responsible, then of course GM should'nt be held responsible. If they are just ducking the issue, then I would hope Hypertech and other manufacturers such as K&N jump on the band wagon and put their money where their mouth and warranties, are. After all, most of them tell you in their advertising that their product won't void your warranty. We'll see what happens.

Thorco69, I was in no way trying to slight you or question your motives, and apologize if that is the way it was taken. I applaud you for making a stand, and requiring proof from GM instead of just sitting back and accepting what they say. I was just using your scenario to raise another question about others who hide mods and still expect "free" repairs, even when the mod was the cause for the problem. It will be interesting to see what happens, and how the aftermarket companies respond to the findings. Good Luck, DinoMaxhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I took it at face value ~ appears to be a principle thing as the unwarranty repair bill would be less out of pocket than most of us would have to pay an atty. Looks like he may have access to some on retainer and the intestinal fortitude to see it thru. There's is something in me that rebels at what I call the detroit attitude ~ wherein the big dog can/does throw its weight around seemingly unjustly.


Reminds me of our recent recall of our governor. He spent money he didn't have knowing that he would take it out of our pocket w/o our consent. Fortunately, there was a person, another politician, that was able to put up personal funds to launch the effort for us to boot him out. (Now, it remains to be seen just how good our new governator will be)

If they are just ducking the issue, then I would hope Hypertech and other manufacturers such as K&N jump on the band wagon and put their money where their mouth and warranties, are. After all, most of them tell you in their advertising that their product won't void your warranty. We'll see what happens.





Very true statement thorco69, if you call any of the aftermarket companies they will never tell you their product will void your warranty.


Good luck!

Thorco-


Good luck with the process. I think you're doing the right thing.


Maybe it's been hashed out before, but I have this nagging question about boxes and programmers. I'm not trying to start any manufacturer-bashing, just take my question as method A vs. method B.


It seems to me that there is more warranty risk involved with programmers like the Hypertech and others that are actively writing stuff to the computer's memory. I have to assume that if a dealer hooks into the ECM, they'll know something has been changed by simply checking the existing data against the stock GM parameters. And I'm assuming the ECM probably remembers when that was done. And I'll also wager that during the process, just like your home computer, it's possible to garble the information on the flash memory. And thus the dealer sees it and goes "ah-ha, there it is." Boom. Done.


For the other boxes like the Juice, my question is, is it writing anything, or is it taking the datastreams from the sensors and adding to it. And maybe I'm being stupid here, but for example if you took the crank/cam sensor data and had a box add timing (just take the data and add so many degrees to it) then the ECM will simply respond to what it's being told, without writing anything to the flash memory.


You guys have commented in the past that there is such a thing as a "Juice Detector," so I'm just wondering uf some of you guys could connect the dots for me. What exactly is the Juice messing with?


I know I'm probably oversimplifying the matter.


Thanks Guys.....

Thorco-


Good luck with the process. I think you're doing the right thing.


Maybe it's been hashed out before, but I have this nagging question about boxes and programmers. I'm not trying to start any manufacturer-bashing, just take my question as method A vs. method B.


It seems to me that there is more warranty risk involved with programmers like the Hypertech and others that are actively writing stuff to the computer's memory. I have to assume that if a dealer hooks into the ECM, they'll know something has been changed by simply checking the existing data against the stock GM parameters. And I'm assuming the ECM probably remembers when that was done. And I'll also wager that during the process, just like your home computer, it's possible to garble the information on the flash memory. And thus the dealer sees it and goes "ah-ha, there it is." Boom. Done.


For the other boxes like the Juice, my question is, is it writing anything, or is it taking the datastreams from the sensors and adding to it. And maybe I'm being stupid here, but for example if you took the crank/cam sensor data and had a box add timing (just take the data and add so many degrees to it) then the ECM will simply respond to what it's being told, without writing anything to the flash memory.


You guys have commented in the past that there is such a thing as a "Juice Detector," so I'm just wondering uf some of you guys could connect the dots for me. What exactly is the Juice messing with?


I know I'm probably oversimplifying the matter.


Thanks Guys.....





I asked about the reflash, one would assume that by restoring stock data that the ECM is returned to the previous state before the reflash.


The Can/Bus type boxes, Juice, VA intercept the signal, modify it and send it along, IIRC it does not leave any traces.


It has been rumored that a JUICE detector exists is somewhere, I do not beleive it and although an educated tech could look at trans. tap cell data and see an anomoly due to the Allsion's adaptive learning, I do not beleive anything conclusive could be proved by that data alone.


All this is speculation and I have no facts to prove or disprove this.


I know when my truck is run stock the shifts are very firm and crisp, unlike a stock Allison. This is due to the Allison adapting to higher HP/TQ and then it shifts harder when under stock power.


I would not worry about it, dealers in general cannot diagnose problems when codes are set. I reset all SES codes before dealer visits and restore all stock data to the ECM.


I have never been questioned or denied warranty work due to my tires, gauges or other Mod's.


I go in "STOCK" without anything in or on the truck as far as performance.


OUT OF SIGHT....OUT OF MIND





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifNYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax

Thanks Tony-


Nah, I'm not "worried" about it per se, and I agree about returning the thing to stock before going to the dealer. Some might call me paranoid, but I went in for a small totally unrelated repair and I took the Juice off. I figured all it would take is some Gomer Pyle to do me a "favor" and check the oil or something simple and then go "heeeyyyy, whatsis?"


What the heck is the trans. tap cell?


Do you use your Predator to clear codes and restore factory data?


With the programmers, boy, you'd sure want to keep that thing with you at all times. If she died and I couldn't reflash for whatever reason, boy, I'd be crapping my pants.

It seems to me that there is more warranty risk involved with programmers like the Hypertech and others that are actively writing stuff to the computer's memory. I have to assume that if a dealer hooks into the ECM, they'll know something has been changed by simply checking the existing data against the stock GM parameters. And I'm assuming the ECM probably remembers when that was done. And I'll also wager that during the process, just like your home computer, it's possible to garble the information on the flash memory. And thus the dealer sees it and goes "ah-ha, there it is." Boom. Done.


Yes, the ECM flash design is GM's and only GM knows for sure how things are laid out in there. There are usually locked areas of flash memory that do house keeping tasks, such as how many times the flash has been erased, written, etc. It would be easy for GM to figure out whether someone's been messing with the family jewels.

Thanks Ray - that makes sense to me. It's like going into the system register on your PC. Everything may look normal in Windows, but if you dig deep enough, like the registry, or into DOS or the BIOS, you can find tons of stuff.


Maybe Quad would offer some comments here, he should have the skinny.

I dont know about the hypertech, but the Predator makes it clear that it is not to be used with on highway vehicles in CA...


Wouldnt want you to get dinged for emissions violations either...

If you plug-n-play, you pay.Stop crying about it.They got you.

Tired Of the pregame festivites and thought you'd through some stones ..... ??

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

If you plug-n-play, you pay.Stop crying about it.They got you.





Looks like you missed the boat!


He stated that if they can prove the box/chip caused the problem, then they are off the hook.

Tired Of the pregame festivites and thought you'd through some stones ..... ??

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif





The Cowboys will make it some day.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


No i was tossing a football.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I dont have any trouble with people using any of the avail programmers, but just be smart enough to make them go away before going in for a service visit. out of sight out of mind is the key. Fatcat, you reading this? I dont care if you have a programmer, but GM does and they call the ulitimate shots. I hope Thorco wins this or if something is wrong, then Hypertech steps up. Do what ever you want your truck, just dont make it look like you do when you go in for a related warranty visit.

I talked to Hypertech this morning, and they told me to send Chevrolets report along with any defective parts Chevrolet claims to have been defective. If Hypertech agrees with Chevrolet. They will reimburse me for the cost. They told me that they have the same diagnostic equipment and software that GM has. For now I will take their statement at face value and we will see. I do question that diagnostic equipment vrs. GM's, as the service writer told me GM had to look deep in the system to find the problems.


At least at first glance, Hypertech claims to back up their software, and certainly if they do not agree with GM they shouldn't pay.

Well everyone here is what I found out at the dealer. First no one showed up for my meeting, just handed me the data, and refused warranty and refused to work on my truck. Stated they were told so by the AVM Stephen Bradley not to work on my truck and deny all warranty. They would not put in writing, and wouldn't even tell me the AVM's name initially. After screaming (literally) on the service drive, the GM of the dealership came out, and ultimately gave me the name. I was instructed to call the 1-800 number to open up a file, and when the customer service rep called the dealership, the dealership would'nt answer any of their questions, other than saying besides the software, I had other things done to my truck, such as the ATS with co-pilot, K&N filter, and Banks exhausts, that the AVM instructed them to call him. The rep told me this has never happened to him or any one else he knew.


Apparently, my fuel system reports were okay, but they could tell by four different recordings that the engine run time on the computer was in error. It would record, and then reset itself after I recorded the loss of power. This told them it was a PCM problem and caused by after market parts. They wouldn't install a new PCM even if I paid for it, not would they quarantee it would solve my problem.


I am well aware of what the law says about after market parts, but I guess GM is going to challenge it with my vehicle. This could be GM's directive or just from a crazy AVM.


Although, the customer service rep is going to call me back after talking to the AVM, I am not going to wait any longer. I have already faxed to my attorney all of my service records on this problem and he will write, GM and all of the aftermarket manufacturers whose parts are on my parts.


For those who think you are totally safe, by just removing the software, and or boxes, etc, you can't remove everything, there are some things left on your trucks, and according to GM some tell tell signs of the devil screwing with their systems.


If any one believes they have been treated unfairly by GM, and wish to do something about it, please e-mail me at thorco69@msn.com, my name is Don.

Don





Thanks for the update .....


Thats the thing as you state it's a domino affect once the OBVIOUS is detected ....


Gauges ,exhaust ,tires ,switches ,wires,air intake you name it .... Nothing is relevent and mostly over looked to the big foam fingers gets pointing ....


I've brought my truck in for warranty repair twice with 5000 miles then 5000 + on the clock .... I told service department actual mileage they never challenged or checked ....Imagine the field day ....


Win one for us ....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

So whats the latest update? Edited by: krash610

If you plug-n-play, you pay.Stop crying about it.They got you.








Hey, that reminds me..... where are those pics of the Juice detector you promised about a year ago? A lot of people called BS on you over that then, and many have forgotten.


I musta missed those pics. Please repost.


Thanks.

After my attorney got involved, GM decided that it would be best to try and resolve my problems, although this did take two weeks. The AVM for GM decided to replace my PCM after one more trip towing with the trailer. They put me in contact with another dealer whose service manager was a lot more cooperative. So we installed the data recorder, and wouldn't you just know it, I had no trouble. The first time in a year in a half. The only difference between when the last dealer data recording and this, was that the transmission shop took out the ATS system and put my original parts back in.


This shouldn't have done anything, as this was going on before and after I had the ATS installed. The service manager said that maybe there was just some weird short, but who knows. I have the data recorder in my truck now, and will leave it in for a couple of trips to the desert to try and duplicate my problem. If not, GM has agreed to let me install the Hypertech to try and get the problem recorded to point them in the right direction. We will all see.


I have a general question, my batteries do not crank like they used to, and I feel it is time to replace them. I have two new spare Optima batteries (yellow top) that I am considering replacing them with. Does anyone have any experience with this, or do you have any other suggestions. As always, I appreciate any imput.

I'm glad things worked out for you.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif As they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

I'm surprised GM buckled at the knees ..... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


I'm also glad it is coming to a resolve in your favor ,you must have one helluva attorney that was fairly quick....


Many have chose the Optima battery for a replacement when the AC Delco go sour ....





Mac Edited by: Mackin

Mackin,





Even large companies cave in quickly when they realize someone is going to follow through, and that the attorney is smart, and known as a top litigator. There are ways to tell in how a letter is writtten, and there is a book which lists all attorneys, their backgrounds, schools, major cases etc.


All that being said, it helps when you are in the right and are not asking for something out of line. Thanks for the info on the Optima's.

thorco69,


Any update on this?

Sidebar:


There has been many instances where "upload" style tuners have damaged the factory PCM on GM products.


It's the price you pay. It is a small risk, but it does happen.

I have finally been able to duplicate my problems, and have an appointment with GM next Tuesday, March 2 to read the data recorder. The service manager I am now working with is a pretty good guy, and does not believe it is the hypertech chip. I did get an e mail from someone in Texas who stopped using hypertech for his customers because he said he had similiar problems on more than one occasion. I will let all know what GM finds or is williing to do. The service manager has received an approval from the Area Vehicle Manger to put in a new PCM if that will solve the problem.

After my attorney got involved, GM decided that it would be best to try and resolve my problems, although this did take two weeks. The AVM for GM decided to replace my PCM after one more trip towing with the trailer. They put me in contact with another dealer whose service manager was a lot more cooperative. So we installed the data recorder, and wouldn't you just know it, I had no trouble. The first time in a year in a half. The only difference between when the last dealer data recording and this, was that the transmission shop took out the ATS system and put my original parts back in.


This shouldn't have done anything, as this was going on before and after I had the ATS installed. The service manager said that maybe there was just some weird short, but who knows. I have the data recorder in my truck now, and will leave it in for a couple of trips to the desert to try and duplicate my problem. If not, GM has agreed to let me install the Hypertech to try and get the problem recorded to point them in the right direction. We will all see.


I have a general question, my batteries do not crank like they used to, and I feel it is time to replace them. I have two new spare Optima batteries (yellow top) that I am considering replacing them with. Does anyone have any experience with this, or do you have any other suggestions. As always, I appreciate any imput.

Here's a long shot for Ya (-:
Intermittent problems, perhaps software, perhaps ECM/PCM, aftermarket parts, etc. Now ...a cranking power problem ?
Oooo Eeee, me is wondering about a possible high resistance ground. I have no "grounds" for it, I'm just remembering how OBSCENCE the electrical diagram of the grounding system is on these trucks.
I'm old enough to also remember the funkey fuses that Volvo used in the mid 70s. If it didn't start I'd check the electric clock, if that had stopped the fuel pump would be taking some rest, just spin the fuse in it's holder and away we go http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif
So, high resistance paths on power (+12) or ground can do NASTY things and they're usually a royal b*tch to find.

I know most of you feel you can't challenge GM or any of the other big boys, but you can if you are right (the problem is to accurately determine if you are right or not) and in the long run you may not be out much other than time and energy. I have sued Exxon, United Airlines, and GM in the past where I was right and they were wrong. All took the standard approach to deny liability and throw me out. As an attorney (retired now), it was easy to simply file a lawsuit against them in a local court, serve them through their registered agent, and wait for the big boy instate attorneys ($500 an hour type or better) to call me and ask what the h-ll was going on. It usually costs the big companies more to retain local counsel than it did to take care of my claim originally. I played the game with their defense attorneys with phone calls, letters, etc until the defense attorneys had racked up such large bills against the big companies that they finally called and asked what it would take to settle. They never try these cases because it will cost them in excess of $10,000 a day overall. In all three cases, their attorneys paid up after about 2 months or so. In GM case, a new truck with no charge offs; Exxon, finally realized my bill was not $150,000 a month and the bill belonged to Fort Hood Texas, and payed attorney fees for my trouble; and United Airlines payed money, free tickets, and all attorney fees and court costs. GM was the easiest because they not only were wrong about the problem, one of their factory service reps admitted it in front of witnesses, but the company still was going to deny it to me. If you are right, and go after them, you will prevail. Even if you are wrong, you will often prevail once it gets to defense council. I am not suggesting you go after GM if you are wrong. Like the man says, if you play, you pay!