4WD Drag Race Theory - Step inside. [Archive] - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

: 4WD Drag Race Theory - Step inside.


McRat
09-16-2005, 12:54 AM
One of the greatest problems we face is wheelhop. We can certainly suppress it by going down in tire pressure or attempt to restrain it with traction devices. I have noticed that some trucks hop with traction devices, and others without them might not, so I want to discuss tire pressure. A truck with a solid suspension can get hop, so I'm not sure hop can be addressed there alone.

I made a stupid mistake when I was first playing with Blue by assuming that more tire pressure might supress hop (less flex in the tire, less wrap?). Nope. While that might work with some car tires, it doesn't work on our trucks. You will get more hop at higher pressures. Sorry Trippin, bad advice on my part.;)

The less tire pressure you have, the slower you go. So you do not want to go lower than necessary. But do you want more pressure in the front or rear? Ideally we want identical traction at all 4 tires, because we are a "locked" transfer case. We must spin both ends of the truck or nothing. I believe (with no proof) that a poor balance of front/rear traction increases hop, and a balanced truck it much harder to make hop.

When you launch, the torque from the front wheels pushes the rear of the truck down, and the torque of the rear wheels pulls the front end up. This is important because your "contact patch" is a function of tire pressure and weight. A tire at 20PSI has twice the contact patch as a tire at 40PSI, and bigger the contact patch, the greater the traction.

I want the contact patch on launch to be the same for all 4 tires. Well if there was no launch torque, it would be an easy calculation. Say you have a 7000lb truck, with 4000lb on the front, and 3000lb on the rear. You would run 40PSI Front, and 30PSI Rear. That would yield 100sqin of contact at each end. But torque screws that up, especially with a 4WD. First we need to know what the torque is at the axles. Assuming we are launching at 1000ftlb of engine torque, first we divide the torque in 2 (two ends of the truck), so that's 500ftlb. Then multiply it by the first gear, say 3:1, is 1500ftlb, then multiply by the axle gears, say 4:1 (yes, I'm making up numbers), so we end up with 6000ftlb at the axle. Now we need to take into account tire radius. The bigger the tire, the less the torque. For simplicity, say tire radius of 1.5 feet = 4000 ftlb at each end.

So 4000 ftlb at each contact patch is trying to rotate the truck. Now the wheelbase comes in. Say it's 12 ft. You take the 4000/12 and get 333lb of "lift" on the front of the truck from the rear axle, and the same amount of "push" downward on the rear from the front axle. So now at launch, your front weighs 3666lb, and the rear weighs 3333lb. As axle torque goes up, weight bias shifts to the rear. At low power levels, you will need more air in the front than the rear, and moderate power levels it will be equal, and at high power it you would want less air in the front than the rear.

Or am I way off base? I need to get actual numbers to figure this out right. If you figure a 1.70 60' time and assume constant acceleration, and know the weight of the truck, you can calculate effective axle torque, and from there with the wheelbase and weight bias, you can figure the ratio of tire pressures.

Any math wizards out there want to take up the challenge? Come up with a formula that takes:

Weight front
Weight rear
60' time
Wheelbase

And come up with a F/R tire pressure bias number?

Lawnboy
09-16-2005, 01:07 AM
I'll try to keep all the people lined up in an orderly fashion for you McRat.

I understand what your looking at, but wouldn't spring rate be just as important here as well?

McRat
09-16-2005, 01:13 AM
Spring rate complicates it even more, then you need to calculate Center of Gravity and work out the acceleration of chassis rotation.

But for us, our spring rates are very high, and chassis rotation is slow, so it has a lesser effect on us than 2wd cars.

8100hammer
09-16-2005, 06:18 AM
Far as tires, which tires are we talking about here? AT's, Drag Radials, M/T's, Slicks, or highway rollers?? each of them have different side walls, belts, linings, tread compounds and will perform different at different air pressures.

My theroy: control the motion of truck, which will plant the rear tires, but keep weight tranfered thru the 60' = killer 60' :ro)

Forced Induction
09-16-2005, 07:06 AM
Sorry Rat your on your own with that equation! :( I'll rely on the old trial and error method. Especially since you will never know the exact track prep which will effect your coeff. of friction, besides tire and track temp which will also effect friction. All I can say is good luck!! :rolleyes: :D

IdahoRob
09-16-2005, 10:13 AM
Whew, I need a couple more cups of joe before I can get my mind traveling that fast. Think I'll wait out this one for the results. I too, have been playing the pressure game. On stockers, I run 32 front and 35 rear. This seems to be my majic psi. When I run more psi in the rear (38-40) and 32 in the fr., I lose traction and truck kind of hops. The same with running 35 in the fr. and 35 in the rear. Amazing how a couple of pounds makes a huge difference. I have to watch psi closely because at our track amb. temp can drop 30 degrees in a evening.

Good thoughts to ponder McRat:ro)

TheBac
09-16-2005, 10:38 AM
Pat, methinks you have too much time to think too much.....

I had some thoughts, but they didn't make much sense to me...

KAT! Where's that honey-do list for Pat! He needs something to take his mind off Casper!

devil
09-16-2005, 11:56 AM
Pat, methinks you have too much time to think too much.....

I had some thoughts, but they didn't make much sense to me...

KAT! Where's that honey-do list for Pat! He needs something to take his mind off Casper!

Yeah that's my thought

Trippin
09-16-2005, 11:57 AM
Pat,

This is best done with some chassis simulatation software. I used this alot for my circle track car. It will allow you to play alot of "what if" games with all the variables and then you can correlate your results to what happens at the track to see where the software is lying to you. I'll warn you, your going to need to accurately weigh the truck and know the weights at each corner in addition you will need to accurately meaure the chassis geometry.

Obviously the construction of the tire/air pressure needs to be considered as part of the spring rate. Some programs will take this into account, others will assume slicks.

I don't have any experience with the drag programs so your on your own as to who has the best.

You can start with

http://www.performancetrends.com/

http://www.auto-ware.com/

and see if they have anything.

:D

McRat
09-16-2005, 12:44 PM
Thanks Guy!

Did a little math, a 1.70 60' is 1.3g's and under constant acceleration, we would be going 48mph. Well, I'm pretty darn sure we aren't going 48mph at the 60' light, so our actual launch g's are higher. So using the 60' won't work.

None of software I'm looking at is aimed at 4wd. So while I do believe tire pressure ratio is important, there is probably no easy way to do it with math.

Kat
09-17-2005, 04:46 AM
KAT! Where's that honey-do list for Pat! He needs something to take his mind off Casper!

:lol: All honey-do's have been put on hold until after next weekend :D

Well ok he does have a couple of little things to do to Big Blue before the races and pulls :cool:

ratlover
09-19-2005, 09:48 AM
Getting worried about your upcoming race Pat? All the theory is nice but best way is with tuning. I dont see a problem with "slowing down" when I air down I see a problem with spinning the tires on the rims. I also dont think shooting for an equal contact patch at launch is what you want to do.

Micheal Tomac
09-19-2005, 12:44 PM
I always ran less air pressure in the rear tires compared to the front. I air down until I'm getting full contact across the tread when driving around on the street or in the pits. If the outside edges of the tread are lighter colored than the rest, there is too much air in the tire and the whole tread isn't touching the ground. I've cut 1.65 - 1.7 second 60' times with load range D 285x75x16 BFG AT's on PYO rims w/o the Elocker and never had wheel hop with or without clamping the rear springs with the torsen bars lowered all the way down.