Van front crossmember & suspension - stock vs Quigley 4WD

Stock front bolt-on crossmember (front view):
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125414&stc=1&d=1324874013
Quigley 4WD front bolt-on crossmember:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125417&stc=1&d=1324874045

Stock front bolt-on crossmember (rear view):
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125415&stc=1&d=1324874109

Quigley 4WD front bolt-on crossmember (rear view):
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125416&stc=1&d=1324874045

Red parts are what is changed from the stock setup:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125419&stc=1&d=1324874289

Looks like the Quigley is a gas van and the 2wd is a diesel. Does Quigley move the oil filter on the diesel vans?

The 2WD van is my 2010 3500 LMM van.

I was wondering about whether the front driveshaft would interfere with the oil filter,
but the transfer case and the front axle are both in the same place as on a 4WD pickup, so I guess it must have clearance.

Evidently 4WD Duramax pickup truck owners have to work around the front driveshaft to change the oil filter.

I couldn't find a picture of the oil filter on a 4WD DMax pickup, but I did find this:
"Just thought I would help the next guy keep soot laden oil off the front driveshaft and his face when removing a duramax filter."
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1761812
so I guess the front driveshaft runs under the DMax oil filter.

how much does the quigley conversion cost?
and can they do the conversion without raising the height much?

how much does the quigley conversion cost?
and can they do the conversion without raising the height much?
It runs almost 11 grand and raises the front 1-2in depending on T bar setting.

how much does the quigley conversion cost?
and can they do the conversion without raising the height much?

The GM IFS conversion doesn't increase the ride height much, if any.

Quigley offers an optional 3" lifted IFS for $2,395:
http://www.quigley4x4.com/Products/NewProducts/LiftedIndependentFrontSuspensionLIFS.aspx

Cost for the 4WD conversion is $11,295 for a DMax van
Quigley's GM 4WD conversion pricing is here:
http://www.quigley4x4.com/OffersandPricing/GMModeland4x4PricingGuide.aspx
Torsion Bar Independent Front Suspension
Independent Differential
Front Axles Disconnect (no hub locks)
GM # 261 2-Speed Transfer Case
4 Wheel ABS
Tire Pressure Monitoring System
4x4 Indicator light
No Increase in height
Improved Road Manners
Better Ride and Handling Features
Built to meet US Standards.

Generally, Quigley will only do vans that are no older than 2 model years back from the current model year, and apparently they will only do conversions for individuals who already own their van is if they can fit it into their schedule. So, according to what they say, people who already own their van can't be sure that Quigley will do a 4WD conversion at any given time. They schedule months in advance, and the actual conversion takes a week or two (depending on their schedule).

2010+ DMax vans have 3.54 rear axle ratio, and there are no 3.54 gearsets for the GM 9.25" IFS front end, so Quigley changes the rear axle ratio to 3.73. I'm pretty sure the $11,295 price they show does not include changing the rear axle ratio.

If the van has already been registered, they also charge sales tax on the entire cost (almost $800), unless you have them deliver it out of state, and they charge a lot for that too, even if they're only delivering it 30 miles to just across the border into Maryland (~$400). I get the feeling that their "delivery" prices may be based on having to haul the van rather than drive it, since their focus is on converting vans that aren't yet registered.

FWIW, I'm seriously considering not having Quigley do my 4WD conversion. Quigley is not exactly all that flexible to work with. For example, they will not use the electrically-shifted transfer case, they will only use the manual shift (and I understand why - it makes the conversion simpler, but it also requires a hole in the floorpan and a shifter sticking up in not the most convenient location).

If I don't go with Quigley, I will make a fixture to make the custom front crossmember similar to the Quigley front crossmember.

That's really the only truly custom part in their conversion. The rear crossmember that anchors the torsion bars is technically a custom part too, but it's practically the same as a GM pickup truck part, only the length is a little different (I think) to match the different spacing of the van's frame rails.

I might make a kit of the special parts needed, if somebody else wanted to do their own 4WD van conversion, using pickup truck takeoff parts for everything else.
.

If you make a kit for a DIY I would be interested in buying one. I am considering trying to convert one myself sometime.

i may be interested in a kit as well.

what else would need to be custom made? transmission mount? front driveshaft?
does the front diff need any special brackets to mount?
are the a-arms, spindles, cv shafts, torsion bars all off the heavy duty trucks?

i may be interested in a kit as well.

what else would need to be custom made? transmission mount? front driveshaft?
does the front diff need any special brackets to mount?
are the a-arms, spindles, cv shafts, torsion bars all off the heavy duty trucks?
All the parts in red in this photo http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125419&stc=1&d=1324874289
are off-the-shelf HD pickup, except the crossmembers, and the stock 2WD rear driveshaft will be slightly too long, and the tailshaft issue.

The parts needed from a donor 4WD HD pickup are: Rear torsion bar mount crossmember (will have to be modified or could also make one from scratch), torsion bars, lower control arms, front hubs, transfer case with output shaft yoke, tranny tailshaft housing, front driveshaft, front diff carrier, front axle shafts, and maybe the tailshaft out of the tranny.

The front driveshaft has to be the same* because the transfer case mounts in the same way, and the front diff & axlea mount in the same place.

The only other "minor" problem is that a 2WD version of the transmission (evidently) has a longer output shaft than the 4WD version. So that has to be changed, or else a custom tailshaft housing must be made to allow the longer tailshaft to remain. I think the spline count on the tailshaft is the same regardless of which type transmission it is.

Here's a chart showing spline counts:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125438&stc=1&d=1324949697
Since the input & output shafts have different spline counts, the yoke that came with the transfer case will be needed (unless 2WD versions of the tranny have the same spline count as the transfer case output shaft). The transfer cases with p/n ending in "5" are used on 6.0L gas HD pickups, while the ones ending in "6" are used in DMax HD pickups. All these transfer cases are the newer design, have a case made of aluminum rather than magnesium, and don't have the infamous "pump rub" problem. The last three in this chart are full-time AWD transfer cases.

I saw a post somewhere that indicated that Quigley uses a custom-made adapter on the tailshaft to avoid having to change the tailshaft. I have looked and looked and cannot find that thread again, but I do remember that it was just one post that said that, and the poster sounded like he knew what he was talking about (but we know how that goes). I have no way to know if that is the case or not, and based on my past attempts to get info from Quigley, I doubt that they will reveal anything about what they do, even if you pay for them to do a conversion. But it would make sense for Quigley to make it as easy as they could, and having to tear a tranny down to change the tailshaft would not be the easiest way - if there was a workaround. that COULD be what that little thin red part is on the back of the tranny in the photo above, which looks like it has a white part after it. It could be a spacer.

*If they put a spacer back there to accomodate a longer tranny tailshaft, then it throws the front driveshaft length off too, meaning they'd have to provide a longer front driveshaft (but that wouldn't be a problem for Quigley, since that's how they got their start, as a custom driveshaft shop).

What I want to do is keep it as close to the same as a GM HD pickup as possible, and that means either using a 4WD version of the tranny, of changing out whatever is different about the 2WD version of the tranny. It is also possible that with the new 6L90, and the new MP transfer case that became available at the same time ('07.5 MY) that GM designed out the differences in tailshaft length. I do not know for sure, but I have been asking people who (I thought) would know, but thus far have I have not gotten a definitive answer.

Quigley 4WD conversion:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125417&stc=1&d=1324874045
I noticed that the rear crossmembers shown in this photo are not the same as in the white&red chassis photo above...

2010 2WD DMax:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125482&stc=1&d=1325015467
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125481&stc=1&d=1325015467

related thread: http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=442351&page=2

It appears that Quigley has to remove, or shorten, the crossmember mounting bracket (outlined in red), to make room for the drive axles.
2WD 3500 van:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125586&d=1325267581
The corresponding points on the Quigley 4WD conversion are outlined in yellow & green:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125587&d=1325267581
Quigley makes a new crossmember to hold the front diff, and it appears to be mounted mainly, if not entirely, to the rear lower control arm mounting bracket.

4WD pickup front chassis:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125588&d=1325267704
The crossmember mount stops a lot higher than on a 2WD van. I don't know if 2WD pickups are the same as vans.


The right (passenger side) mount is handled completely differently too. It appears to be bolted to a small triangular plate fastened to the remaining part of the crossmember mount.

Quigley 4WD conversion:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125590&d=1325268439
4WD pickup front chassis:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125589&d=1325268439

not such an easy install it seems.

i wonder if quigley would sell a kit with instructions??

I wonder if quigley would sell a kit with instructions??
Nope. I am absolutely certain about that. And they won't sell any parts either. BTW, the photos I have aren't on their website, so normally they don't even give that much away.

4WD FRONT DIFFERENTIAL CARRIER/FRONT AXLE
http://parts.nalleygmc.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_product=3050660&ukey_assembly=386926
The round part colored red is the left rear (lower) mount:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125646&stc=1&d=1325343217
In pickup trucks & SUVs, this bolts to the inside flange of the left rear lower control arm mounting bracket.
http://64.185.13.2/images/subproject57.jpg

so you going to put a complete how-to together? :D

so you going to put a complete how-to together? :D
I have more pics that I will post later. The van front end setup is significantly different than even a 2WD pickup. It's clear to me now that there probably won't be any kits forthcoming. Making a GM 2500/3500 van 4WD will require surgery on a lot of stuff welded on to the frame, and that would probably require pulling the engine out.

A 2500/3500 van front frame section is completely different than a 2500/3500 pickup truck front frame section
The engine mounts are different too.

G237/G337 (155" WB) VAN FRAME
http://parts.nalleygmc.com/images/parts/gm/fullsize/091215TG07-497.JPG
K209/309 (133" WB) Pickup truck FRAME
http://parts.nalleygmc.com/images/parts/gm/fullsize/100922TC07-960.JPG


G237/G337 (155" WB) VAN FRONT FRAME SECTION
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125668&stc=1&d=1325393703
K209/309 (133" WB) Pickup truck FRONT FRAME SECTION
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125671&stc=1&d=1325394108

Looking up at the left rear lower control arm pivot (mount):
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125672&stc=1&d=1325394801

Looking forward toward the left rear lower control arm pivot (mount):
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125673&stc=1&d=1325394801

I found a slightly more complete drawing of the 2500/3500 van front frame section:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125674&stc=1&d=1325395764

For comparison, here's the HD pickup truck front frame section:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125676&stc=1&d=1325396250


This makes it clear why Quigley doesn't mount the right side of the front axle to the OEM aluminum support:
the rear mounting point (which contains the cylindrical rubber mount is at the top center of the drawing above)
cannot fit because the van's lower control arm bracket is on a different (less vertical) angle than a pickup/SUV.

GM HD pickup left side front frame:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125677&stc=1&d=1325401145

GM HD pickup right side front frame:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125678&stc=1&d=1325401145

What year pickup are you comparing to the van?

I found another view of a 2500/3500 van front frame section:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125679&stc=1&d=1325427120


What year pickup are you comparing to the van?
The photos of the pickup front frame section are of this 2007 Classic HD pickup:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4439750&postcount=1

The drawings are for a 2007-2010
http://parts.nalleygmc.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_assembly=387235&ukey_make=1026&ukey_model=14595&modelYear=2009&ukey_category=0&ukey_driveLine=6247&ukey_TrimLevel=14325&ukey_modelRange=0&searchString=FRAME

While the former is GMT800, and the latter is GMT900, these should be essentially the same in terms of comparison to a van frame.


-> BTW, since you have a pickup truck, please let me know if you're interested enough in this to take a few measurements. <-

Just buy a front diff already and put it in.

Just buy a front diff already and put it in.
Please refer to this post: http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4473101&postcount=20
(among others) to understand why it is not possible to 'just buy a front diff and put it in.'
.

I know it is not just a bolt it in and go type of install. You have to do some fabrication to make it work but it can be done.

Got new front shocks to put in the truck, hopefully this week. So I will be under it.

What do you want measurements of?

I'm easily distracted so make it clear and easy :)

I have a 3500 2wd LBZ truck

What do you want measurements of?
I'm easily distracted so make it clear and easy :)
I have a 3500 2wd LBZ truck
If you can measure the distance between the left & right rear lower control arm pivot bolts, that would be helpful.

Using one of the Quigley photos because it's the only one I could find, here's the dimension I am referring to:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125694&stc=1&d=1325450940

ok. I'll take a look

If you can measure the distance between the left & right rear lower control arm pivot bolts, that would be helpful.

Using one of the Quigley photos because it's the only one I could find, here's the dimension I am referring to:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125694&stc=1&d=1325450940
If I'm looking at the right part, it looks different, and has 2 bolts on each side, kinda staggered.

you want distance between both or just the upper or lower, or am I looking at wrong part?

Well, that picture is the only one I had, and it is of a van (and ignore the red lines), but a pickup truck will look slightly different.

I need the space (indicated by the pink lines with the ? mark) - from left to right - between the lower control arm rear pivot bolts.

This dimension should be something like 29 inches.

These pictures are of a van, taken from the front looking toward the rear.
Lower control arm rear pivot bolts are circled in pink.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125797&d=1325726893
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125798&d=1325726893
You'll probably have to measure between the ends of the bolts that protrude on the back side.

so the 4wd control arms bolt in the same hole as the stock arms?
and the upper stock arms are retained?

so the 4wd control arms bolt in the same hole as the stock arms?
and the upper stock arms are retained?
Yes & Yes.

The stock van knuckles are retained too, but the 2WD hubs have to be replaced with 4WD hubs that have splines for the front axles.

Here's a photo from Quigley (although it's not easy to see everything):
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125419&stc=1&d=1324874289
Red: 4WD pickup truck parts
Black: Quigley custom parts (but I think some stock parts - like the steering shaft - are black also - but maybe they had to change that too?)
White: original 2WD van parts

Well, that picture is the only one I had, and it is of a van (and ignore the red lines), but a pickup truck will look slightly different.

I need the space (indicated by the pink lines with the ? mark) - from left to right - between the lower control arm rear pivot bolts.

This dimension should be something like 29 inches.

These pictures are of a van, taken from the front looking toward the rear.
Lower control arm rear pivot bolts are circled in pink.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125797&d=1325726893
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125798&d=1325726893
You'll probably have to measure between the ends of the bolts that protrude on the back side.

havent forgot about you. that second pic helps. I'll be under it changing oil next week. try again then.

Thanks.