Ford already stopped making diesel cargo vans (an overdue decision in their case, considering that their vans were stuck with the problematical 6.0 Powerstoke)

Here's why GM will be next: it will be killed by limited production volume in this application, the high cost of diesel fuel relative to gasoline which almost offsets the fuel economy gains without even taking higher diesel maintenance costs into account, and the even higher cost of diesel emissions controls relative to gasoline engine emissions controls, making the diesel option less popular, resulting in lower production volume, driving up unit cost even more.

The 2010 LMM Duramax option in a van had an MSRP of $7,795 (over the base 4.8L gas V8), or $6,800 over the cost of the optional 6.0L gas V8, which at the time I believe was about the same as the LMM option cost (not including the Allison trans.) in a HD pickup truck which came with the 6.0L gas engine standard.

Now, on the 2012 models, the cost for the Duramax option in a van is a LOT higher.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=124221&d=1322181735
Duramax in a 2012 van is MSRP $11,945 over the base 4.8L gas V8
Duramax in a 2012 van is MSRP $10,950 over the optional 6.0L gas V8,
which in this application puts out about 65 more horsepower than the detuned Duramax, and probably enough torque (in a lower gear, of course) to tow about as well (the GCWR rating for the Duramax in 1,000 lbs heavier, but the 800 lb. heavier engine uses up most of that).

The Duramax option (including a second battery and a lot of heavy metals in the exhaust system) in a van weighs about 800lbs more than the 6.0L gas V8, reducing payload accordingly.
GMC website lists the 2012 Duramax van as being 831 lbs. heavier than the 6.0L gas V8 according to this chart:
http://www.gmc.com/savana-cargo-van/features-specs/capabilities.config%3D3500_regular_wheelbase.html
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=124222&d=1322182449

The GM online order guide list the 2012 van Duramax option as about 768 lbs. heavier than the 6.0L gas V8:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=124224&d=1322182851

The GM online order guide list the 2010 van Duramax option as about 624 lbs heavier than the 6.0L gas V8:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=124225&d=1322182851

With Ford going out of the diesel vans, I didn't know that, GM will fill in the gap.
I see more diesel vans than ever before, ambulance, cutaways and the big MA water resource authority have been buying them up.
For 10 grand your right it doesn't make much sense to buy them unless your going to keep it and then with injectors and what ever else could go wrong maybe it doesn't make sense at all.
I will be doing the numbers when the Express needs replacement

It's just under 11 grand difference. Way too much, nearly double what the first ones were in 2006. And to think that at the time, I thought the jump in price from LLY to LMM was a big one! The rising price differential versus the pickup truck Duramax tells me GM is selling fewer and fewer diesel vans. At these prices, that's no surprise! The fewer they sell, the more they have to charge, even though it's the same engine internally, the only van-specific stuff is on the outside.

A lot of fleet buyers may keep buying diesel vans because long-established government specs continue to require it (your tax dollars at work). Maybe in a few years they will evaluate the cost effectiveness, something almost any normal civilian buyer does with every purchase. Maybe that is the only reason they are still available at all - governmental fleet buyer requirements that are now essentially obsolete relative to the current situation.

What got me started on this was from Express Todd's post about his new van.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4421836&postcount=7

By the time Express Todd got his, GM had already jacked up the price his 2010 LMM vans by over $4,000 compared to my 2010 LMM van (from MSRP $37,775 to $41,975), even though the one he bought had to have been made not much later than mine was (GM stopped production of LMM vans sometime around Oct. 2009, unless they kept building them with leftover engines longer than they said they did). Now, true, he did get a great big discount because his 2010 LMM van was leftover so long, but that won't apply to new 2012+ vans... or if it does, then they won't keep doing it much longer.

If you run a lot of miles...the diesel pays for itself easily. The 6.0 and 4.8's are not good on fuel in commercial applications.

In my application, and with diesel at $4/gallon and gas at 3.40

Diesel still pays for itself in year 6.

And who pays list price for options anyways?;)

You're right, it has been an ongoing trend tho. Diesels for people running under 50,000 miles a year are just not good financial sense. Thanks EPA.

If you run a lot of miles...the diesel pays for itself easily. The 6.0 and 4.8's are not good on fuel in commercial applications.

In my application, and with diesel at $4/gallon and gas at 3.40

Diesel still pays for itself in year 6.

And who pays list price for options anyways?;)

You're right, it has been an ongoing trend tho. Diesels for people running under 50,000 miles a year are just not good financial sense. Thanks EPA.
Very true on the pricing, I thought about that later. I should have also listed the invoice price in my text. Joey D was closer than I thought when he said 10 grand.

The diesel option for a 2012 van adds $11,109 @ dealer invoice over the cost of the base 4.8L gas V8
The diesel option for a 2012 van adds $10,233 @ dealer invoice over the cost of the optional 6.0L gas V8

Dealer invoice is on the images, and even using dealer invoice pricing, the price premium is still way too high to be justifiable based on fuel cost savings (unless you make your own biodiesel, which is my plan) as long as diesel fuel sells for the premium it does here in the US.

Around here, cheapest regular gasoline is $2.75/$2.79
http://www.stlouisgasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=A
Cheapest diesel is almost a dollar higher.
http://www.stlouisgasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D

Of course this happens every year in the winter, and the gas/diesel price differential is nowhere near that high in the summer.
Gas is usually at its cheapest in December & January, when demand for heating fuel oil is highest. During the summer, I would expect to again see diesel nearly the same price as regular gasoline but only when gas prices spike, and about like premium gas (30¢ higher than regular) the rest of the time. In most parts of the midwest, gasoline does that almost like clockwork: price gradually drops a penny at a time until it hits a certain point, then BAM! price jumps up 25¢ or more in the space of a few hours (except for Sam's club, which thankfully doesn't react so quickly)

I just priced a new van at the dealer Wednesday. $45,000+ Ouch

seems the Ford guys think the van got dropped because its bringing down the powerstroke image:crazy::shake::hehe::bsmeter:


http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118439

This link http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118439
doesn't seem to work unless logged in.

I just priced a new van at the dealer Wednesday. $45,000+ Ouch
Yeah, at some point it becomes not cost-effective even for the die-hardest diesel fanatics... especially with the prospect of expensive injector replacement (and maybe some other stuff) seeming to be inevitable, in way less than 10 years. My previous gasser ('97) is still going strong nearly 15 years & 130,000 miles later, with just routine maintenance (synthetic oil change every 5,000 miles, changed spark plugs twice; it's actually still running the original fuel filter).

At least the Duramax pickup buyers have significantly greater towing capability, but even with a heavy trailer, with the LMM it's still a matter of just a few miles per hour: http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/2007/shootout/hdshootout4mpg.html
although the LML seems to have a bigger advantage: http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2010/08/2010-hd-7-percent-hill-climb-test.html

About the only reason I can think of for the huge price premium for the van Duramax vs the pickup Duramax is declining sales of Duramax vans. Somebody somewhere probably has the actual numbers. I do know that a couple local dealers used to keep one diesel cargo van in stock (vs at least a half dozen gas 2500/3500 cargo vans). Now they do not order diesel vans for inventory, and I get the distinct impression they don't order them at all (based partly on the trouble I had when I was trying to buy a 2010 LMM). The fact that Express Todd found two 2010s left over, two model years later, is somewhat of a tell.

I just priced a new van at the dealer Wednesday. $45,000+ Ouch

OUCH is right!! I paid just under 30k for my fully optioned 3500 ext. lly in OCT. 2006. As Piper stated the diesel still pays for itself in a commercial application where you run a lot of miles. As for injectors I guess I am lucky I only had 1 at 36k and I now have 475,773 on the clock as of today.

Cab and chassis 2011/12 LML G35/4500 are around 35-37k to buy. Most new type 3 ambulances and remounts are on these chassis'. Except for a few with Ford gas chassis.

What is the gas vs diesel price differential on 2012 cutaways and cab & chassis vans?

Is it still around $11,000 like the cargo vans?

I hope you are wrong, but it is easy to see where you are coming from. I actually looked at gassers myself before buying my second diesel Express. For most people out there, the gas one is probably a far better deal. However, there is that select niche that needs as much payload (I know the gas engine weighs less, thus increases payload) as well as towing capability. That is where my decision came in to get another diesel. See, I load the van and a trailer to the max. I could not get a gas engine to perform the same way as the diesel.

For those of us that drive tons of miles per year (I don't - maybe about 35K per year on each of my vans) or need all the power one can get (I do), the diesel is the only engine.

It sickens me to know I paid so much more for the same thing that I could have bought for less earlier on, but it is what it is.

I think the market will, as you said, determine the future of the diesel van. I know there are applications for it. The government, IMO, has been the largest cause of the price premium. I do believe it will stay though. By domestic manufacturer, here is what I see happening:

Ford - Maybe bring back the diesel van in their new 6.7? I don't know. They also have the new engine (ecoboost) in a 3.5 and smaller versions that brings a huge amount of torque to the party. I could see them possibly carrying this out into a larger displacement engine that would be very competitive with the economy and performance a diesel gets....we will have to wait and see.

Dodge - Sprinter has fantastic ergonomics, but is plagued with many other issues. It is great to work out of and has a bunch of cargo capacity, but is underpowered (and has suspect reliability). If Dodge takes the body and possibly puts a more powerful and reliable diesel in it, it could be a contender?

Chevy - ???? As you started this post, the prices are making this thing start to look like it will be the next GM vehicle to see the graveyard. I hope that is not the case. It is just a vehicle that is in such small demand (everyone wants more power in a truck or does not need as much power as the duramax van). We will have to wait and see.

As a side note, I know it is not domestic, but have you seen the new Nissan NV? It is a clone of the Sprinter but only comes with a gas engine. However, Nissan is not a stranger to diesel and maybe a couple years down the road? Who knows?

As stated earlier, the thing that is hitting us the hardest with the price premium is the government. I don't think they are going away anytime soon, but I also don't think the need for some of us to run a van with as much power as possible is either.

I think there will always be a market (although small) for this type of vehicle. As long as the market is there, if Chevy prices themselves out of it, somebody else will hopefully enter.

What do the rest of you think?


Todd.

Cab and chassis 2011/12 LML G35/4500 are around 35-37k to buy. Most new type 3 ambulances and remounts are on these chassis'. Except for a few with Ford gas chassis.
FYI: RPO code for 2011+ van Duramax is LGH. In the segment that includes cutaway- or stripped chassis-based ambulances & RVs that may cost well over $100,000, it's not surprising that diesels still have a bigger market share than gas (although part of that is force of habit) because the $11,000 Duramax option is a much smaller percentage of the six-figure total vehicle cost than it is with a regular cargo van. And the other factor helping GM in that segment (for now) is that Ford does seem to have discontinued the diesel in all forms of their van, including 4500+ cutaways & stripped chassis, leaving the gas V-10 as their only high torque engine.


It sickens me to know I paid so much more for the same thing that I could have bought for less earlier on, but it is what it is.I think you got a GREAT deal on the price, because the one you got was a two model years old. That's always the best type of deal - if you can find it. And your dealer had not one, but TWO of them!

When I got mine, it was only a few months old, but I guess partly because times were rougher for GM then, it already had a lot of cash back: $2,500 GM cash back (on top of the $2,565 dealer discount off the $41,065 MSRP - mine has a few more options than yours, including some - like the $200 high idle switch - I would not have ordered if I'd had the opportunity). As it turned out, I bought it from that rarest of entities: an terrific dealer. A month later the dealer sent me a letter explaining that my van actually had not $2,500 in GM cash back, but $3,500 in cash back - and enclosed was a check for $1,000!

To top it off, (and I still cannot explain this) somehow I got the $875 optional cold-climate package with auxiliary heat generator, for just the $75 price of the basic cold climate package (my only guess is that GM's system somehow had not been updated to correctly price that brand new variation of the basic cold climate package that just includes the electric block heater).

You also got one of a very remaining Duramax vans that can be tuned with EFILive. IMO, that's a BIG advantage compared to a 2011+ Duramax, with the added hassle of DEF fill-ups, and the cost & complexity of an over-the-top crazy emissions system, which as far as I'm concerned is the straw that breaks the camel's back on diesel vans, which for all that added cost, still have way less power (though a lot more torque) than the gas engine. With an EFI tune, a built 6-speed trans. that will hold LBZ power & torque levels, 3500HD pickup truck wheels & 265 tires, the 2010 LMM van value proposition changes to be more like the case in a pickup truck, where the D-Max is most certainly not dead. And that is a big factor why we BOTH bought one of the rare 2010 LMM vans.

If I can make biodiesel, I'm sticking with the plan to keep this one for the rest of my life. But there is no way I could justify a 2011+ LGH van, and I would question that decision for anyone else, no matter how many miles they drive it, as long as is diesel fuel stays way more expensive, and as long as they have to keep filling the DEF tank too (and only truck stops have bulk DEF dispensers).

One thing I do wish I had is Stabilitrack, but it looks like it may be possible to add it, if I can find a wrecked donor vehicle, because all passenger vans came with Stabilitrack since 2009 (and maybe before that, but 2009 is when GM changed the van electrical system to the same new GMLAN scheme as the '07.5+ pickups).

Cab and chassis 2011/12 LML G35/4500 are around 35-37k to buy. Most new type 3 ambulances and remounts are on these chassis'. Except for a few with Ford gas chassis.
FYI: RPO code for 2011+ van Duramax is LGH. In the segment that includes cutaway- or stripped chassis-based ambulances & RVs that may cost well over $100,000, it's not surprising that diesels still have a bigger market share than gas (although part of that is force of habit) because the $11,000 Duramax option is a much smaller percentage of the six-figure total vehicle cost than it is with a regular cargo van. And the other factor helping GM in that segment (for now) is that Ford does seem to have discontinued the diesel in all forms of their van, including 4500+ cutaways & stripped chassis, leaving the gas V-10 as their only high torque engine.


Ford - Maybe bring back the diesel van in their new 6.7? I don't know. They also have the new engine (ecoboost) in a 3.5 and smaller versions that brings a huge amount of torque to the party. I could see them possibly carrying this out into a larger displacement engine that would be very competitive with the economy and performance a diesel gets....we will have to wait and see.
Yeah, I do think that a turbo-charged, direct fuel injected engine will be the way to go. Gasoline direct injection injectors run at less than one-tenth the pressure of a Duramax injector, so they should be a lot cheaper too.

No telling how many years it will take for Ford to make the 3.5L ecoboost engine available in something heavier duty than the F150. Of course, vans will be the last to get it, if it ever shows up at all. I guess GM will have a similar TCDI gas V6 available in pickups eventually, since (I think) they have, or soon will have, a TCDI 4-cyl. in a car. If natural gas prices stay at 1/3 the cost of gasoline, the best setup for most van applications (urban/suburban shuttle/delivery) would be a TCDI bi-fuel gasoline/natural gas V6. The bi-fuel option is a no-brainer. It was available years ago from Ford (maybe GM too?) but fell out of favor in the late '90s when gasoline prices dropped so low. GM now offers a natural gas option in vans again. But most natural gas implementations are far from optimized (although Honda finally did raise the compression ratio of their NG Civic engine slightly). Naturally aspirated NG engines have less power than their gasoline counterparts due to loss of volumetric efficiency (the gas takes up a lot of the volume that would normally be air). Natural gas has very high octane (about 130 RON). So, NG is a perfect match for a fully optimized TCDI engine that could easily outperform the same engine running on premium gasoline. A bi-fuel option rather than NG only would solve the other part of the puzzle: where to refuel a NG vehicle on long trips, and would be analogous to GM's Volt vs. the Nissan Leaf. Vans and pickups have plenty of room for a second fuel tank, making them them the perfect candidate for bi-fuel.


Dodge - Sprinter has fantastic ergonomics, but is plagued with many other issues. It is great to work out of and has a bunch of cargo capacity, but is underpowered (and has suspect reliability). If Dodge takes the body and possibly puts a more powerful and reliable diesel in it, it could be a contender?
I looked closely at the Sprinter early on, when it first came to the US, when Dodge was owned by Diamler. For my application, I really could benefit from the availability of the oem high roof. That generation Sprinter, as well as the current one, was rated at more payload (due to about 1,000 lbs. lighter weight) and more GCWR (13,500lbs., i.e.: max GVWR + 5,000 lb trailer) than a GM 1500/2500 van with a 5.3L gas V8, but the practical reality is very different (and just goes to show how arbitrary some of those ratings can be). Take one look underneath a Sprinter van and you realize how light duty they are compared to a GM or Ford 3/4 or 1-ton van. And it just goes downhill from there. It quickly became obvious that the Sprinter was going to have poor support in the US, compared to GM or Ford vans that are built & sold in so much higher volume here. For about the first two years Dodge sold Sprinters, you couldn't even buy an oil filter from a local auto parts store! Imagine what the availability is like of other parts for the Sprinter, especially the new generation Sprinter that, because of Diamler's divestment of Chrysler, is now sold mainly at Mercedes dealers (maybe Freightliner has it again, too?). So in practical terms, there is no more Dodge Sprinter.

I guess GM will have a similar TCDI gas V6 available in pickups eventually, since (I think) they have, or soon will have, a TCDI 4-cyl. in a car.
The Ecotec is a direct injected 4cyl turbo, and the 3.6L v6 in the Lambdas (Traverse/Enclave/Acadia) and Camaros is direct injected as well.

When I bought my 2011, I never did the math to see if the diesel would pay for itself. I also didn't do the math on the power seats or remote start. For me, a diesel is a convenience, not an investment. I will continue to buy these options (diesel, cruise, tilt) because they make my life easier.

Im gonna be looking for an LBZ/LMM

Build you own diesel van :)