Since no one can say what the failure rate is,lets take a sample poll from our members.I know its not a perfect poll but it may shed some lite on the situation.Personaly i had one injector fail on an 01 and that's it. Hell it still went the expected distance.Edited by: BROKER

How are you gonna vote Broker?


You got more than one Duramax.

It took me a minute to figure out the first number was the year. Duh!

Good question grady. I was thinking about the same thing,thats why i posted the 01 failure.I hope i'm the only guy with that problem.

Looking good for the 02 and newer trucks so far!

Those guys who are reporting problems are not home yet, wait until tonight!! LOL

No failure, yet ....


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

At less than 2000 miles, I don't think my no vote on an '04 amounts to much, but threw it in there anyway.

Since I am happily running stock and will until she is in the boneyard, I'd like to know how many of those experiencing failures are stock versus modified (juiced, etc.)?; Also, what additives, if any, were used by those who experienced failures.


I also wonder whether blended winter fuel (lubricity) might factor into the equation - how many from cold climates?


jeffEdited by: dmax lover

At less than 2000 miles, I don't think my no vote on an '04 amounts to much, but threw it in there anyway.


Same here srode, but I'm at 4200 miles.

58,000 miles


no secondary filtration


no issues yet Edited by: Blinky

For what it's worth. My 2 injectors and return line that were replaced, were with less than 1000 miles on the truck.

Had a interesting conversation with my Service Manager, they have seen a few D/A's for injectors, mostly 01's and 02's but did have a 03. He is now telling them to install a Secondary filter, in fact they have installed a couple Nictane set-ups. Blames the Quality of Diesel out there.


So as far as Warranty issues go, it seems like the dealerships (Good Dealerships) are basically aware that its in their best interest, long term, if they inform their Client base, to install secondary filters. While they may make some $$ on warranty work in the meantime, the negative effect of having a bunch of PO'ed D/A customers is not in their long term best interest,


That's my take on this, also I think given that Bosch has had their system running fine in Europe for years, GM designed the specs for the D/A filter on this data, not forseeing the effects of the poor quality diesel in America, now they are in a tuff spot, unless the Petroleum Industry cleans up the Fuel source (highly unlikely), I think this could turn out to be an issue for all the Bosch High Pressure fuel injections (Diesel). As more miles get put on, I think we will see the full effects of adding a Secondary filter.


As you can see the 01's have a higher percentage of Injector failure, probably due to more miles, I would be curious to see how long the 01's that have secondary fitering go without injector problems, this could be the most telling survey of allhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif.

see tuck

grace

haleymo

NO problemo to date with 22k+ miles on her.





But.....mine was build after the 9/02 date so its spose to be corrected after that.








Edit to correct: should be 9/02 not 9/03http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifEdited by: HD-Nate

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Glad to see these polls.


Percentages (poll statistics) beside the yes and no items dont make any sense to me though. Help me out.


For example taking the 01's you have 44 total respondents as of my post. 10 said they had issues 34 did not. Part over the whole 10/44 = 22.7% have had issues. The others who didnt 34/ 44 = 77.3 % no issues. Perhaps I missed something looks like less than 25 % of 01s have issues based upon respondents so far.


If I got it right same should be applied to all categories on the various polls.


Thanks for the polls... great idea.


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NO problemo to date with 22k+ miles on her.





But.....mine was build after the 9/03 date so its spose to be corrected after that.





What I don't get is how you can have an '03 built after 9/03 and I have an '04 built 6/03?


BTW I got mine on 8/23/03 and now have 12500 miles with no problems at all. Great truck!Edited by: maxinDixon

as the numbers in this poll continue to roll in, it might pay to remember that '02's built prior to (I believe) Jan. '02 had '01 injectors ... we purchased our '02 in Oct. of '01 so it may have been better to include our data with the '01's ... have 53,000+ on our truck with zero engine/transmission issues to date, can only hope that continues


Jim

I don't know about the rest of you but this poll is looking good to me and I am feeling better.

The only problems I've had so far on mine was a broke tranny cable and my steering shaft ratteling.

I don't know about the rest of you but this poll is looking good to me and I am feeling better.





That was my intent.I think it will keep getting better as it keeps going.Too many negative posts on these issues.

NO problemo to date with 22k+ miles on her.





But.....mine was build after the 9/03 date so its spose to be corrected after that.





What I don't get is how you can have an '03 built after 9/03 and I have an '04 built 6/03?


BTW I got mine on 8/23/03 and now have 12500 miles with no problems at all. Great truck!








http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif Oops, fat fingered that one, should be 9/02http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

I agree with Longreach, we need to compare apples to apples and, as of this post, the '01's have a high failure percentage 31.4%, per the 11 fails out of 46 votes. This may be due to: 1) more miles and/or 2) the lack of secondary filtration popularity back in th early years and/or 3) less fuel additive knowledge/use.


It's an interesting poll!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

??
There are some comments about the specific month and year your truck / engine was built.
Sorry if this is dumb but how are you determining this detail of info?

Thanks, Sparky
2002 Chevy D/A EC SB

the 04`s havn`t been out long enough to establish a pattern, the 03`s are looking pretty good, but also not many miles on most. The 01`s at over 31% look very bad. the 02`s are at just over 6%, which is unexcepable in my opinion. After all many of them are less the two years old. (Mine is under 18 months old, and has just 50,000 miles) It looks like there may be lots of problems once these trucks get upto 6-8 years old, then again many of these problems may be due to the type of owners that are posting on the forum. (Power hungry, hot rodders)

I have had no problems at all with the 2003 Duramax.


I know of 3 2002 Duramax's (All farm trucks by the way) with over 60,000 miles with no problems of any kind.


All of these units are currently running juice boxes, banks exhaust and K&amp;N filter assemblies. These units are used daily and are run hard. On weekends they pull snowmobile trailers in the winter and travel trailers and 5th wheels in the summer.


No problems of any kind.......

I have had no problems at all with the 2003 Duramax.


I know of 3 2002 Duramax's (All farm trucks by the way) with over 60,000 miles with no problems of any kind.


All of these units are currently running juice boxes, banks exhaust and K&amp;N filter assemblies. These units are used daily and are run hard. On weekends they pull snowmobile trailers in the winter and travel trailers and 5th wheels in the summer.


No problems of any kind.......








Farmers have come a long way!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

These numbers are higher than what I expected to see, however you can't expect them to accurately represent the general Dmax ownership base. The nature of the individuals who find thier way here will skewe these results somewhat, but it's a very good idea anyway.


I have often talked with many Dmax owners and have recieved absolutely zero account of injector problems. And three of those people who are diesel mechanics haven't enough motivation to go ahead and install secondary filters on thier own trucks (even though two of them have CAT filters on the shelf in thier shops).


Personally I am glad to be running a pre-CAT, and I do believe that it will make a difference in the long run. I also use FPPF Total Power in every tank. My experience with heavy equipment gives me little faith in water separation as a long term solution to fuel system health. --SS

someone do another poll with injector failure v/s milage average..

Sorry guys, have 2003 4500 with 6.6 Duramax, 55,000 miles, had all left bank injectors replaced and right bank pressure tested at 40,000(as per Isuzu), because you could not see the truck from 50 feet away for white (unburnt, 7cc/min/injector) smoke. 150 miles after exiting dealer, back on a low boy, would not go over 30 mph, but sure killed a lot of mosquitos. Dealer changed all right bank. Came out, noticeable loss of power and economy. Nice extra feature is known as "Phantom Idle" by GM. Drive along at 65 on the freeway and all of a sudden the rpms drop to idle. Between looking in the rearview mirrors for the big rig that is about to give you a high speed enema and trying to pull over to the shoulder, all the while pedaling the throttle like mad (joys of drive by wire) and questioning the heritage of design engineers, the pucker factor remains quite high. IF you are lucky, you cycle the ignition and drive away, hoping no one noticed. If not you call a tow truck. This event does not set any hard or soft codes nor even flash the SES light. Unless the EMC is hooked up at the time this happens, GM has no idea what causes it. This has happened three times to us. We have changed out the TPS (which is part of the throttle pedal assembly $275) on our own to no avail. Yes GM knows the problems, has since 01. Isuzu and Bosch are pointing the finger at each other, Isuzu does not know how to design injectors and Bosch does not know how to manufactiure them and GM brings out a smaller micron filter, admits it has no cure in sight. It is hoping and I do mean hoping that the redesign of the 04's with the external injectors, different turbo and 20 LESS BHP will somehow cure the problems, but nobody knows. The 03 is now parked out back along with the 01 3500 Dmax, which at 70,000 has had 1.5 sets of injectors and 4 engine oil for fuel swaps and has lost 20 PSI oil pressure since new. Can't use the Lemon Law, it only goes to 10,000 lbs and the 3500 weighs in at 11,400 GVW and the 4500 at 13,000+. Waiting for the lawyer to do a buyback,and yes GM has bought back numerous Dmax. Many other horror stories associated with these two, but I would just bore you. No modifications done to either of these vehicles. Just a note about a GM quirk regarding vehicle year. GM production runs from January to December of each year, not October to September as per other manufacturers and DMV. So, even if your vehicle is manufactured in Oct, Nov, Dec of say 2002, as far as GM is concerned for parts purchase the vehicle is still a 2002, even though everybody else says it is a 2003. Try it at your local GM dealer. Yes we replaced both trucks with Ford F450 Powerstrokes, hope they last longer. The above is what we have experienced with two Dmax powered vehicles, it is meant only as information, not as a critique of anything or anybody.

someone do another poll with injector failure v/s milage average..

Started one last week with only one response.....

See Topic: Injector Issues versus Mileage? (http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4568&PN=4)

Had two leaking at around 14K in my 03. They replaced all eight and I added a racor secondary. No more problems, I'm at about 25K now. I feel a lot better after reading this pole. Less than 7% with problems so far.Edited by: GMCDURAMAX

I voted no, but my truck only has a little under 5k miles w/no problems(knock on wood), so I don't know how much my vote should matter in this poll.





On edit: I didn't realize that I had already voted in this poll shortly after it started. For some reason, it let me vote again. Just a heads up that two of the '04 no problem votes are mine. Edited by: flhrciblueice

I have the very early 01. 80K+ miles now. No problems to speak of. They are a bit noisier, but truck runs like a top and still averaging 16MPG daily driving.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Checked with GM to see if there was actually any difference in injectors from 01 through 04, all the same GM part # 97720661, even the same in the redesigned 04.


Couple of interesting GM TSB's:


TSB # 02-06-01-23A


SUBJECT: Oil leak at cooler to engine block mating surface (Replace O rings and apply sealer). Basically says that the machining on the block in this area is not uniform, replace O rings, apply sealer and allow 8 hours to dry prior to engine operation, IF the customer complains.


TSB # 02-07-30-004A


SUBJECT: Grade braking feature of Allison 1000 Transmission.


Provides some good info. on the shft points and rpm relationship.


Both are from 02 but the first is still happening, the second is just good information for people who tow.

192553,

READ THIS (http://www.motorage.com/motorage/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=58083)

As far as the Dmazx goes, I just scratch my head when someones truck loses more than one injector in one shot. Is this a coincidence? Or is it a fuel issue?

Think about it. What causes 2,4,6 or all 8 injectors to go south all at the same time?

All i'm saying is it's strange.

Luckily at 67,000 miles I've had no fuel system troubles except the rail pressure control valve. Lopey idle now fixed. Mines an 01

You have to understand this poll is going to show more percentage of failures by a mile. Problems is often why people join. The actual rate is most likely very different.
Edited by: hoot

My 03 does not have a locking gas cap. Do you think envrowackos could be poisining us? I have a buddy with a 67 Ford Bronco. It would't run one day so he pulled the carb. A Brachs candy roll rapper was clogging his inlet screen. Edited by: Bronco

192553,
You have to understand this poll is going to show more percentage of failures by a mile. Problems is often why people join. The actual rate is most likely very different.






http://www.corvetteforum.com/zeroimg/smilies/iagree.gif

Failure rate still is not that alarming.Would not stop me from buying another one.

Hoot, that was a good article.I am sorry, I was not critizing the poll, just describing what our experiences have been. I must admit a certain amount of frustration does tend to creep in.


After a great deal of phone/personal contacts these are the things I know:


"The "heavy line" repair dealers are not as up to speed on the Dmax as the "light line" dealers. Light dealers have seen Dmax's since 2001, heavys only for about a year." Quote.


lLght dealers had trouble keeping enough work for one diesel mech. prior to Dmax. Now have 4, just to do Dmax.


That GM/ISUZU/BOSCH (once you get beyond the "official line") know they have fuel system problems. They also know they have engine management system issues.


The injectors, when removed, have a light brown, talcum powder consistency, non metallic film (not rust) in the inlet. Reminds me of the old Japanese gas lines that the additive in our gas reacted with. GM says that is not the problem. Same stuff in the old Quadrajet float bowls come to think of it.


That Dodge experience the same problem, same color,but they change the lines when changing the injectors (at least around here anyway). Had many repeat problems prior to line replacement.


When the vehicle goes in for warranty repair, it is ISUZU not GM that calls the shots on what is replaced. All EMS data is downloaded, serial and part #'s of all engine components are sent to ISUZU and they tell the dealer what to change (in other words, what they will pay for under warranty). It is ISUZU's policy to ONLY replace whichever injector(s) are bad. Should you have an injector line (internal, pressure or return) leak and blow out all (or most) of your engine oil, they will not pay for the oil pan to be removed to check the bottom end, saying the engine is strong enough not to worry about it. Diesel fuel being a lubricant, will not do that much harm is their position. I question if this mixture of oil/fuel on the high pressure side may be a contributing factor to later failures.


It is also policy to perform a maximum pressure test on the remaining injectors to see if any are going bad. It could be that again, this may be a factor in the failure game.


As to why all fail the test on one bank, I have no answer for that other than it was the worst case of white smoke generation the dealer had seen. Why would it run for 150 miles and then the other bank go, again no answer, and the troubling thought is that the dealer (who is the best we have found) has no idea either.


We average 5K miles/month, at least 100+ miles key on to key off. Oil and fuel filters are changed every 3000 miles. Air filters every 6000 miles. Trans. fluid and filter every 25,000 miles. We do not idle in gear (auto) longer than 3 minutes. Our trucks pay our wages and are treated accordingly.


ISUZU has made diesel engines for years, good ones, only complaint was the parts are on the pricey side, nothing unusal to see one with 300,000 miles and still going strong.


CAT/CUMMINS/DETROIT etc. have engines that run on the same fuel, albeit with usually two fuel filters (but then they run on some dirty fuel) and go 500-750,000 before any problems.


BOSCH is the premier name in fuel injection systems, gas K,J,L etc. and diesels, both mechanical and electronic although the VP44 on the CUMMINS 5.9 did not last long.


GM unfortunately, did not do to well with the initial 6.5/6.9.


But it is not like all the players do not know the rules.


The engines that last (the OTR/heavy equipment) operate at optimal temperature/rpm/load, are hardly ever shut down and run through extremes of temperature and conditions, with few problems. Even the 60 series Detroit (a two stroke diesel and the only one capable of reliably operating at maximum right from cold) performs admirably in fire trucks although it cannot meet the emmission regs. Are we asking too much from the diesel in this lightweight application?


Short stop/start cycles. Operation outside of engine

I find it interesting you mention white smoke billowing from your tail pipe?


Most stuck open injectors create black smoke.( I thought?) White smoke on a diesel is usually a sign of a very lean condition. It appears there are several different type of injector failures. It almost seems as the computer or something else has a tendancy to make them flake out? Are the injector solenoid power leads exposed to oil? Is magnetized fuel an issue? Finally is there a oil that will perform better when mixed with diesel fuel? I would think a guy would want to run oil that has the highest lubricating capabillitys when mixed with fuel. If you ever have an injector fill your crankcase at least you have an oil that is still doing some good. Not sure what this all means just trying to help piece together the puzzle?Edited by: Bronco

Over 7%. That's pretty high even in view of fact that those with out problems have less incentive, and are probably less inclined, to participate in these sites and polls.

Im agreeing with Mr X I have talked to a few d max owners about problems if any they are having and mentioned joining the Diesel Place as they can get a lot of info here and get more familiar with there truck, there ans is I dont have time for that B.S. I wish them well and go on mt way


Geno

192553,

Interesting comments. Especially the ones on Isuzu calling the shots.

Since you mentioned the Detroit Series 60, I did some searching and came up with this excellent article on the differences between the 2 and 4 stroke diesels and why the DD 60 Series still exists today. What was interesting was a parallel statement to what you said...

"These engines (diesels) developed their reputation for reliability and very long engine life beginning over a hundred years ago, a reputation that, for the most part, no longer holds. That reputation was based up very unsophisticated, slow turning, low horsepower engines. Except for sailboat auxiliaries, you won’t find many such engines in existence today. Today we have a "need for speed," and everyone wants to go fast. Going fast is what negates the virtues of those engines from a by-gone era.

The modern diesel is very sophisticated, complex, lighter weight and very powerful. Hence, their life span is often no more than that of a gas engine, often times even less. To say that they are delicate is not an overstatement. There is a very simple rule today that the more power you try to squeeze out of a given engine block, the less service life it will give. People can argue all they want to, but that is a fact."
Here is the Article (http://www.yachtsurvey.com/comparing_diesel_types.htm)

I think injection system durability alone is the real wild card today.... especially in the last couple of years with all the newer high power, clean, quiet engines just released. No wonder Isuzu went with the redesign... they know the injection system on all of the newer diesels are basically making these engines what they are and have a lot demanded of them. As long as the production can get some of the prices down, replacing injectors every 100,000 miles or so may some day be like changing spark plugs.

I think the trucks should come with a second set of injectors voucher.

Assuming injector repairs are a given, then what can we do to make them more affordable? Labor rates will never come down. The time required could come down. The injectors themselves should definitely come down. Is there a way to validate the true time required by the average mechanic? Are there short cuts to streamline the replacement procedure? Can we buy factory direct? Just some ramblings in an attempt to bring the cost down to a resonable amount. I will change all 8 before they are even out of warranty if reasonably priced!

just casted my vote '03' 15.7k miles on it. But one question, there is this clack, clack, clack, noise mostly audible on the passenger side, and only when the sound hits off something like a car or a wall beside me when at a stop. I almost remember reading somewhere this is normal but will ask for peace of mind--thnx!





Mark