THE FLINT JOURNAL FIRST EDITION
Friday, August 26, 2005
By Todd Seibt
tseibt@flintjournal.com • 810.766.6315

MILFORD PROVING GROUNDS - In the pitched battle between heavy-duty diesel pickups, horsepower and torque rule hand-in-hand like king and queen.

And it's good to be king. Especially with the queen at your side.

General Motors says it will rule both thrones later this year when it offers a new, upgraded and uprated 2006 Duramax 6600 turbodiesel bolted to a new Allison 1000 six-speed transmission.

The diesel pumps out 360 horses and 650 foot-pounds of torque, GM says.

"It's nothing short of fun. It is one bad dude, man," said a smiling Mike Tulumello, vehicle line director for full-size pickups, of the Duramax.

Proof? GM provided it here by lashing 10,500 pounds to a trio of trailers, then hitching those wagons to a GMC Sierra crew, a Dodge Ram Mega Cab with a Cummins turbodiesel and a Ford F-250 with a Powerstroke diesel.

And then they let journalists drag-race them.

Up a 7.2 percent grade.

No matter how you sliced it - and even when the Dodge driver cheated - the six-speed Sierra won, walking away. And with a tap-up, tap-down feature on the transmission, negotiating the tight and twisty downhill run back to the staging area was a piece of cake.

(Third place went to the Dodge. The Ram beat the Ford out of the hole, but the five-speed Ford caught and chugged by the four-speed Ram before the top of the hill.)

Heavy-duty diesel pickups are important to GM and Flint. For GM, they have meant a rapidly growing and highly profitable market share in an area where the automaker once was simply not competitive.

For Flint, which is GM's sole source for heavy-duty crew-cab pickups, they provide thousands of jobs - not to mention bragging rights - at GM's Flint Truck Assembly Plant on Van Slyke Road, where they are assembled by members of UAW Local 598.

In fact, Flint Truck ran at 139 percent of its capacity in 2004, according to the independent 2005 Harbour Report. Workers there built 171,070 pickups in 2004, in a plant rated at 122,952 trucks annually, Harbour said. (A separate line in the plant is GM's sole source for medium-duty commercial trucks, some of which also will get the upgraded Duramax.)

One problem with that kind of popularity - and it's a nice problem to have - is that GM, which builds the Duramax in Moraine, Ohio, in partnership with Isuzu, can hardly ship enough of the diesel engines.

"We sell everything we can make," said Charlie Freese, executive director of diesel engineering.

"This has been a torque war in North America. It has been a back and forth battle," he said. But the improved Duramax, pushing power through the improved Allison, takes GM to the lead in nearly every measurable category, he said, including quietness, reduced emissions, starting ease and improved fuel economy.

It also has pushed GM to a nearly 30 percent market share for diesel-powered pickups, up from a scrawny 1.1 percent when the Duramax family of engines came online in 2001, Freese said.
--end quote--

There's more to a truck that just the engine. Will GM also take the lead in truck longevity, reliability, durability of upholstery and every other part, quality OEM tires, etc., etc.? Will GM design these trucks to still be tight and strong at 300,000 miles...or more? Will GM offer a warranty that at least matchs Toyota with 5 years or 60,000 miles on the drivetrain components? Will GM fire their Chevy body design team and let the GMC team design both brands?

Man how the Dodges boys changed their story from when Cummins offered the first 600 ft lb tq of the three. Now they say being torque king doesn't matter. When a year ago, they praised the power/torque of the Cummins. Saying the Duramax and Powerstroke couldn't hang with the Cummins.
And they continue saying that the peak torque of 610 ft lb is lower then the other two, when that is not true at all. The Duramax will now have 650 ft lb at the same rpm as the Cummins! (1,600 rpm!)

With the diesel wars in full swing, who's gonna be the first of the Big Three to offer a street legal drag truck?
:lol:

IMO, i dont care if our trucks have lowest stock power, we know we can easily change that with a tuner, and compared to tuners available for the other two engines, they are no match.

IMO, i dont care if our trucks have lowest stock power, we know we can easily change that with a tuner, and compared to tuners available for the other two engines, they are no match.

No match? How do you figure?

Easy, just select 1 tune for each truck an see what comes out on top!

A bone stock Duramax LB7 (6th guy down Cliff Henke) with just "1" power adder made 444 HP on a dyno. Let's see that from the other 2.

Results from K&S Fuel Injection/WyoTech Dyno Day earlier this year

Name Year & Make Engine HP Torque Actual Torque

John Kennedy 02 Chevy 6.6 509.1 1275.30 1020.24
Mitch Kieffer 03 GMC 6.6 462.3 1228.30 982.64
Jon Conway 03 Chevy 6.6 461 1243.60 994.88
Rich Malecki Dodge 5.9 451.4 1217.30 973.84
John Gliszczinski 01 Chevy 6.6 449.2 1248.90 999.12
Cliff Henke 04 Chevy 6.6 444.8 1264.40 1011.52
Mark Huckstorf 03 Chevy 2500 6.6 430.3 1205.30 964.24
Brady Scharpen 96 Dodge 3/4 5.9 400.9 1210.20 968.16
John Gliszczinski 01 Duramax 6.6 393 847.00 677.60
Pete Feltz 02 Chevy 6.6 385.2 1048.00 838.40
Steve Mueller 04 Chevy 6.6 379.6 1086.10 868.88
Charlie Allen 01Chevy 6.6 378.6 1118.20 894.56
Roger Byrd 02 Chevy 6.6 376.1 1135.80 908.64
Andrew Gilbertson 00 Dodge 5.9 374.9 1193.90 955.12
Jerome Johnson 04 Chevy 6.6 374.5 1154.00 923.20
Sylvester Weis 04 Dodge 5.9 363.1 1047.30 837.84
Tim Parker 03 Chevy 2500 6.6 361.5 1080.10 864.08
Blake Czerwonke 03 Chevy 6.6 357.6 1144.80 915.84
John Stevens 04 Dodge 5.9 354 963.00 770.40
Eric Tipler 94 Dodge 5.9 345 1129.70 903.76
Jason Burns 04 Dodge 5.9 331.3 979.20 783.36
Marcus Johnson 97 Dodge 3/4 5.9 328.8 1150.70 920.56
Dean Sheldon 00 Ford 7.3 312 822.60 658.08
Travis Lubinski 01 F250 7.3 311.6 824.40 659.52
Todd Zuelke 01 Chevy 6.6 310 818.90 655.12
Laura Peters 94 Dodge 5.9 298.7 1187.00 949.60
Russ Leyk 02 Chevy 6.6 296.6 862.90 690.32
Dennis Hann 02 Dodge 3/4 5.9 292.6 999.40 799.52
Noah Knudsen 93 Dodge 350 5.9 291 967.00 773.60
Ivan Ruzic 01 Ford 7.3 281.3 754.40 603.52
Chad Bohte 01 Dodge 2500 5.9 279.8 891.50 713.20
Tony Reis 01 Ford 7.3 275.8 804.40 643.52
Marvin Mullet 03 F350 7.3 272.3 699.70 559.76
Peter Koch 01 Dodge3/4 5.9 270.3 835.60 668.48
Jay Rineck F250 7.3 269 715.70 572.56
Ryan Leyk 02 Dodge 5.9 268.2 988.80 791.04
Gino Lamond F350 7.3 260.2 677.00 541.60
Garrett Shields 98 Dodge 2500 5.9 252 658.30 526.64
Jonathon Hable 04 GMC 6.6 251.9 659.00 527.20
Tony Prestigicoma 97 Dodge 5.2 Gas 245.1 462.30 369.84
David Horst 05 F350 6 239.6 674.50 539.60
Carrol Pittsley 01 Ford 7.3 238.3 683.80 547.04
Wade Brandl 03 Ford 6 232.3 705.30 564.24
Ned Erickson Ram 3500 5.9 226.3 425.00 340.00
Mitch Peters 01 Dodge 5.9 224.9 1053.70 842.96
Zack Kania 02 Chevy 8.1 Gas 214.8 432.70 346.16
Jeff Konkel 02 Chevy 5.3 Gas 211.5 399.80 319.84
John Czerwonka 01 Chevy 8.1 Gas 210.9 377.50 302.00
Brian Wilhelm 91 Chevy 406 Gas 208 279.40 223.52
Glenn Miller 97 F250 7.3 198.8 530.80 424.64
Don Range F250 7.3 197.5 542.70 434.16
Jeff Rineck 97 F250 7.3 197.2 482.80 386.24
Shad Gevers 01 Ford V10 194.3 384.70 307.76
Paul Hawke 00 Chevy 4.8 Gas 176.4 318.70 254.96
Dale Seehafer 94 F350 7.3 136.2 343.40 274.72
Bobby Buchanan 86 4 Runner 2.4 Gas 108.4 246.30 197.04
Henry Malovrh 96 Chevy 2.2 Gas 74.8 154.90 123.92

To h--- with HP & torque wars, who is going to be the first to build a HD truck that gets 30mpg, has a 300,000 mile mechanical warranty, is not plastic, and holds together for 300,000 miles.

er....for you, nobody.:lol:

To h--- with HP & torque wars, who is going to be the first to build a HD truck that gets 30mpg, has a 300,000 mile mechanical warranty, is not plastic, and holds together for 300,000 miles.

I'll second that.

Easy, just select 1 tune for each truck an see what comes out on top!
A bone stock Duramax LB7 (6th guy down Cliff Henke) with just "1" power adder made 444 HP on a dyno. Let's see that from the other 2.

I'm there. No big deal.


Is the loser really the loser? All depends on what these trucks are used for and what it cost to keep them doing it. In the end if the loser does the job well and lasts and the winner breaks down after a short life, who is the winner?

The Duramax of course........Hoot you know you want one. Com'n Hoot break out the wallet.

The Duramax of course........Hoot you know you want one. Com'n Hoot break out the wallet.

Been there, done that.

Will GM fire their Chevy body design team and let the GMC team design both brands?

:exactly: ):h

i guess i cant say too much about the body style, I have bought 2 of em:)

Ya know this is great and all but with Diesel fuel cresting the $3.50 a gallon, the cost of the truck nearing $60K. Nice to have 30- 40 more HP, but at what cost?

At some point they will make a wicked amount of power but very few will be able to buy one.( or will buy one and make $900 a month truck payments) Looks good on the showroom floor like a Ferrari, but means nothing if you can drive it.

I very much enjoyed my 2001 when I got it, was a 40K deal(which I thought was outrageous then for a Pick up truck) I enjoyed $1.79 cent Diesel fuel....Now I have a paid for truck but gas is ridiculous....

Ya know this is great and all but with Diesel fuel cresting the $3.50 a gallon, the cost of the truck nearing $60K. Nice to have 30- 40 more HP, but at what cost?

At some point they will make a wicked amount of power but very few will be able to buy one.( or will buy one and make $900 a month truck payments) Looks good on the showroom floor like a Ferrari, but means nothing if you can drive it.

I very much enjoyed my 2001 when I got it, was a 40K deal(which I thought was outrageous then for a Pick up truck) I enjoyed $1.79 cent Diesel fuel....Now I have a paid for truck but gas is ridiculous....
You really like to strech the truth, (Or lie, which ever you prefer!) Where did you pay nearly $60,000 for a Duramax pickup truck? (And we aren't talking about the medium duty trucks here!) I paid just over half that for mine, and I have yet to pay $2.80 for a gallon of diesel. So $3.50 is a long way off. (Oh ya, Diesel is coming back down some now, so it`s going the wrong way to be $3.50 anytime soon!)

If someone is making $900 a month payments, they have over spent their means, or have more money then they need, in which case, they could have paid cash.

If someone is making $900 a month payments, they have over spent their means, or have more money then they need, in which case, they could have paid cash.

Not hard to do 0% for 36 months on a 42k truck = $1166.67 kinda like a house payment-:t

Yeah, I know of several people paying around a grand on their truck payments. Of course, they'll have them payed off in a year or two and aren't paying any interest, so they just suck it up until payoff time!

HdMax,
Not trying to start a debate, But gas here in Cal is $3.30 on average, Last I saw for a 2006 LT Dually was nearing $60K with necessary bells or whistles. I, like a few others who posted, know of a quite a few guys that have payments anywhere between $700- $900. Let's not forget Sales Tax, Dealer prep extended warranty if you happen to buy one, insurance and registration. people forget that when they say they got a truck for 1000 over MSRP...:) I am not bagging on GM, The truck is really an engineering feat, I am merely saying at "What cost do we have to pay for GM to Brag to the world about being the TOP DOG...?" They are not paying for it...Matter of fact they benefit from it, We pay for it. As for you finding an 06 for half of $60...Well you must have connections or you bought a 2500HD, standard cab with No AC, radio delete and rubber floor mats....:lol:

<---- $734 / month for 60 months 0.0% thru GMAC $0 down at delivery.

:help2:

Nah, it's not really that bad...gotta love the 0% for 5 years!

[quote=hdmax;696177]You really like to strech the truth, (Or lie, which ever you prefer!) Where did you pay nearly $60,000 for a Duramax pickup truck? (And we aren't talking about the medium duty trucks here!) I paid just over half that for mine, and I have yet to pay $2.80 for a gallon of diesel. So $3.50 is a long way off. (Oh ya, Diesel is coming back down some now, so it`s going the wrong way to be $3.50 anytime soon!)

Come too california, diesel at the Chevron was $3.79 a gallon last Wens, went dowen the street to the Shell truck stop, it was $3.22 a gallon.

Talk about price gouging!

If you pay $60,000 for an '06 dura/ally dooley you're an idiot.

my 04.5 lly was 1200 bucks a month financing at 0% for 48 months.

HdMax,
Not trying to start a debate, But gas here in Cal is $3.30 on average, Last I saw for a 2006 LT Dually was nearing $60K with necessary bells or whistles. I, like a few others who posted, know of a quite a few guys that have payments anywhere between $700- $900. Let's not forget Sales Tax, Dealer prep extended warranty if you happen to buy one, insurance and registration. people forget that when they say they got a truck for 1000 over MSRP...:) I am not bagging on GM, The truck is really an engineering feat, I am merely saying at "What cost do we have to pay for GM to Brag to the world about being the TOP DOG...?" They are not paying for it...Matter of fact they benefit from it, We pay for it. As for you finding an 06 for half of $60...Well you must have connections or you bought a 2500HD, standard cab with No AC, radio delete and rubber floor mats....:lol:


I said I paid just over half of $60K for my 02 when new. As for 05-06 models, they can and do get bought for $40,000 or less. Employee discounts do apply to both 05`s and 06`s. If someone is paying anything over $45,000 for any brand pickup right now, they are getting screwed without so much as a kiss. The highest MSRP I have seen has been $52xxx, and with employee discounts it comes out for less then $44,000 out the door. That is $16,000 less then what you stated. (Or more then 25% difference!) That`s a huge, huge difference!:eek:

As for the price of fuel, these trucks use diesel, not gas, so who cares if gas is $3.30? Diesel around here has not topped $3, and at most places has not topped $2.85. Sense California has much higher fuel prices, I'll give you that one, but not the $60,000 pickup truck.:exactly:

It was/is $2.99 in central Illinois.

HDmax,
Ok, Agreed, I should have been more clear when I said "upward $60K", I guess I am a realist when it comes to the entire purchase price of a truck. I am one that includes all the hidden costs, then the extended warranty if people still buy those scams, the sales tax, the dealer prep and so on. One thing where I think we are probably on different pages is the type of truck so we might be comparing apples to oranges as they say. I suspect you are talking 2500HD, I am talking CC, LB K3500 Dually. As you know options plays a role in the overall price, we could also be talking about a LS versus and LT. When I went down to the local dealer here, I saw (Now mind you window sticker, No BS with sales guy) a price at $54,200. Let's say we get it down to $48K x 8.25% Cal Tax (~$4K), a $1200-1500 extended warranty, Dealer prep of $1000 and you are nearing $55K....So I will retract my "Nearing $60K" and come back with "Nearing $55K". Regardless $55K or $60K, that is an awful lot of money for a pick up truck. My real point of the conversation was the war and how 40Hp makes them the winner...Well from a marketing stand point it sure does..Some people are driven to have the best. It will drives sales up, people will buy...Just seems like alot of money for 40 more HP....

On the fuel, I am speaking only of Diesel Fuel. I know nothing else...At lunch today, as I turned the corner, the Valero station had Diesel Fuel at $3.49.

One thing for sure, we pay alot more than most places in the lower 48 compared to others. I bet in the midwest and other places you can buy trucks and everything else for that matter significantly cheaper. I guess it is the high price for living here in California....The weather is sure nice though...:)

Carry On

To h--- with HP & torque wars, who is going to be the first to build a HD truck that gets 30mpg, has a 300,000 mile mechanical warranty, is not plastic, and holds together for 300,000 miles.

Exactly! Of all the times truck owners have been crying for hp/tq and now GM finally acknowledges and enters the hp/tq battlefield. It'll probably be a brief run before consumers say ix-nay on the hp/tq.

To answer your questions, I'll bet it'll be a japanese manufacturer.

National Sozialistisch Volksrepublik Kalifornia

If someone is willing to finance the entire cost of their truck, and the financing company will do it, then more power to them. But they will have a salty payment when doing this on a $30 to 50k truck. The 0% is really tempting, but there is usually a large rebate that is lost to get it. It is up to every buyer to choose their poison.

my 04.5 lly was 1200 bucks a month financing at 0% for 48 months.
You paid $57,600 for your truck? Or at least you financed that amount. I hope they gave you a blow job.

You paid $57,600 for your truck? Or at least you financed that amount. I hope they gave you a blow job.

:eek2:





:nopics:

those pmts are insane...

I put $1200 bucks at my deal ($500 deposit when I ordered it, $700 when it came) and put in the $1000 rebate = $574 for 60 @ 0%

and yes my truck arrived when there was 60 mos 0% and $1000

This is the way I did it.

I work for Caterpillar, so I get a supplier discount on GM vehicles. I also have a GM card, which I had about $1500 in earnings on.

The dealers down here (IL) wouldn't let me use the supplier pricing with the GM card earnings. My brother is a tech at a Chevy dealer in WI. His buddy who is a salesman, dropped the price of the truck to match the supplier pricing, and then I was also able to use my GM card earnings.

All said and done I walked out the door owing $44k and change (that includes tax, title, license, etc.) I never had to put a deposit down when I ordered it. Sticker on my truck was $49,800.

When I took delivery, the offer was either $1000 cash back now, or 0.0% for 60 months.

Well a little quick math told me that it amounted to either $1000 today, or $7500 over the course of 5 years. That folks, is a no brainer. I'll take 0% all day long!

I also did not need to put any money down, so I took the money I made from selling my Yukon, and paid off some high interest debt.

And that's how it's done ):h

55k?? Are you sure?
When I check every box in the "build your own" page on the chevy website, I can only get like 50k, and thats with the expensive sunroof and RSE dvd player. For the most part ALMOST all LT's (or, sorry, we're using the stupid new GM trim level scheme...LT3) are around 47k sticker price. And you wont pay anywhere near that with all the deals etc....

---Ben

55k?? Are you sure?
When I check every box in the "build your own" page on the chevy website, I can only get like 50k, and thats with the expensive sunroof and RSE dvd player. For the most part ALMOST all LT's (or, sorry, we're using the stupid new GM trim level scheme...LT3) are around 47k sticker price. And you wont pay anywhere near that with all the deals etc....

---Ben


Must be Canadian denaro

Henry Malovrh 96 Chevy 2.2 Gas 74.8 154.90 123.92

Anyone else notice that someone dynoed a 4 cylinder?):h Was that in an S-10 or Cavalier?

I like the effort GM gave but comparing a late '06 model to current models for the other brands doesn't really tell you much.

Anybody know if the twin turbo powerstroke I have been hearing about is a go? I'm sure cummins will up the ratings as well.

DURAtotheMAX,
Well again, it is California where they sell everything using the 'Supply in demand" mentality. I know it was a loaded deal. On new cars around here, they sell at or Above MSRP and it depends on the hype the vehicle gets By JD POWERS, ROAD AND TRACK and all those bought and paid for businesses;) The new Sport Range Rover is selling $10K above MSRP...no bartering....But for people around here that have to have the best and be the first, $10K is nothing.

I have got to thinking that my view on this may be quite tainted since I only have tangible evidence based on my area. I see what people report from all over the nation here on the forum and if I believe that 80% are being completely honest it appears trucks from Nevada to NY are $10-$15 K cheaper and people have friends of friends who have a buddy here or a buddy there and they get a special deal.

It is canadian currency.

BTW I bought one of the first LLY's. There was some rebate on and 0% w/o additional cash rebates.

The 1200bucks includes GST.

So like i said those trucks were brandnew and the msrp of it was 56750 or so.

Now I bought an '05 and payment is less than a 1000bucks for 36 months at 0%:).

I traded the old one along w/ my car. They took what I had more in trade than the new one was worth off what i was owing on my blue 04 so this way I keep getting 0% and not .9%

Had 53883 for trade and new one was 48683 w/ employee pricing.

Geeeeshhh , this post went from Duramax wins against the other two, Too, You payed to much for your Dmax$??!!! Glad i read the last 3 pages . NOT!

I heard from someone that GM will be using CAT's (not the meow kind,lol) in 08?

I heard from someone that GM will be using CAT's (not the meow kind,lol) in 08?

Don't believe it. I work for Cat and I have lots of friends at the Tech Ceter in both engine design, and Cat Electronics, as well as in marketing. If that was going to happen, I'd know about it. Not to say that GM and Cat haven't worked together on Duramax projects in the in the past...

It is canadian currency.

BTW I bought one of the first LLY's. There was some rebate on and 0% w/o additional cash rebates.

The 1200bucks includes GST.

So like i said those trucks were brandnew and the msrp of it was 56750 or so.

Now I bought an '05 and payment is less than a 1000bucks for 36 months at 0%:).

I traded the old one along w/ my car. They took what I had more in trade than the new one was worth off what i was owing on my blue 04 so this way I keep getting 0% and not .9%

Had 53883 for trade and new one was 48683 w/ employee pricing.

Hey,

For our Friendly neighbours to the south, any new vehicle bought ( In ontario anyway) you pay 15% tax on the final price. ( 7% GST & 8% PST ) so it doesnt take long for the price to approach or exceed $50K. Thats why unless things change for me or I win the Lotto, I am holding out for a used one.

Take care,

Will

Geeeeshhh , this post went from Duramax wins against the other two, Too, You payed to much for your Dmax$??!!! Glad i read the last 3 pages . NOT!

And I've got some good news....

I saved a bundle on auto insurance since I switched to Gieko

Man o man , you should of seen the sale on watermelon in aisle 10 !!!

And I've got some good news....

I saved a bundle on auto insurance since I switched to Gieko

Yooouuu caaannn Dooooo Iiiiittttt!!!! (Tony Little Voice)

No word yet on the other two matching GM or one upping them. I thought Dodge would have at least matched GM on this. I guess they don't trust their automatic transmission. I knew Ford wouldn't jump aboard, as they have stayed in the distant the last few upgrades by GM and Dodge.

I want to see Ford`s new comercials where they show their truck winning in races or pulling. :eek: They do have the highest payload, and towing, but I would think that when the next generation of GM`s 2500HD, and 3500 twins come out in about 15 months, that will change.

No word yet on the other two matching GM or one upping them. I thought Dodge would have at least matched GM on this. I guess they don't trust their automatic transmission. I knew Ford wouldn't jump aboard, as they have stayed in the distant the last few upgrades by GM and Dodge.

I want to see Ford`s new comercials where they show their truck winning in races or pulling. :eek: They do have the highest payload, and towing, but I would think that when the next generation of GM`s 2500HD, and 3500 twins come out in about 15 months, that will change.


I thought for sure the Cummins would go for it all, but I guess not. They went with the largest interior volume and new front end instead. Speaking of that, I saw the new Dodge's - those new headlights look horrible. I do like the spacious interior though.

As for Ford, I think they have given up on the Powerstroke, and will just wait until 2007, when the new twin turbo comes out, and try to make that into the next big gunner.

I thought for sure the Cummins would go for it all, but I guess not. They went with the largest interior volume and new front end instead. Speaking of that, I saw the new Dodge's - those new headlights look horrible. I do like the spacious interior though.

As for Ford, I think they have given up on the Powerstroke, and will just wait until 2007, when the new twin turbo comes out, and try to make that into the next big gunner.

The 2007 motor is a modified 6.0 litre Powerstroke. I don't think they have given up. All this nonsense about hp and torque has hurt consumers as much as the truck/engine makers. Personally, I would rather have less power and a rock solid motor.
:exactly:

No word yet on the other two matching GM or one upping them. I thought Dodge would have at least matched GM on this. I guess they don't trust their automatic transmission. I knew Ford wouldn't jump aboard, as they have stayed in the distant the last few upgrades by GM and Dodge.

I want to see Ford`s new comercials where they show their truck winning in races or pulling. :eek: They do have the highest payload, and towing, but I would think that when the next generation of GM`s 2500HD, and 3500 twins come out in about 15 months, that will change.

It's not about racing. It's about spending a big chunk of change and EXPECTING.

I dont believe the Duramax beat the Cummins all the way up. That is a load of bull**** from GM.

I dont believe the Duramax beat the Cummins all the way up. That is a load of bull**** from GM.

Were you there? I didn't think so!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Nope I was not there.........but I do know that my fathers Cummins would always get off the line faster than my LLY. Maybe the LBZ will do it but know the LLY won't.:D

Nope I was not there.........but I do know that my fathers Cummins would always get off the line faster than my LLY. Maybe the LBZ will do it but know the LLY won't.:D
This thread has nothing to do with the LLY! So when you make a blanket statement like you did, it is total BS:eek: And wishful thinking on your part. :eek:

I'll second that.



I'm there. No big deal.


Is the loser really the loser? All depends on what these trucks are used for and what it cost to keep them doing it. In the end if the loser does the job well and lasts and the winner breaks down after a short life, who is the winner?

Lets see the dyno sheet.....the best I have seen from a pmcr was 430 with exhaust and stock turbo and that was on a 600.....just curious if you actually had it on a dyno to get that number or are you guestimating?

This thread has nothing to do with the LLY! So when you make a blanket statement like you did, it is total BS:eek: And wishful thinking on your part. :eek:

Wishful thinking?? I have two Duramaxes and One Cummins 600. How the hell is it wishful thinking I dont give a ***** who can pull up a hill the fastest. Dont jump down my throat because I dont believe GM's testing results.

Dollar for dollar I think the Dodge would rock right by that new 6 speed. Meaning if you where to take the diffrence in price of the two trucks and put that money into upgrades and the picture changes altogether.

Wishful thinking?? I have two Duramaxes and One Cummins 600. How the hell is it wishful thinking I dont give a ***** who can pull up a hill the fastest. Dont jump down my throat because I dont believe GM's testing results.


):h ):h

Take that Mikey ;)

):h ):h

Take that Mikey ;)
.l.

I've been put in a 01 Dodge since wrecking the Dmax about 3 weeks ago. This truck has about 78K miles and has 3 broken seat adjuster motors on the drivers side which has my back feeling like $hit. The passenger side seat has a broken recliner cable so that seat is at a straight up angle. The dash sounds like it's coming apart and that damn fold down drink holder squeaks so loud that you can barely hear the radio. Other than that it just rides like $hit. BUT IT DOES HAVE A CUMMINS ENGINE. Morral of the story is how much junk is one willing to put up with to have a CUMMINS. I dread driving this thing for 6 more weaks. Truely

I've been put in a 01 Dodge since wrecking the Dmax about 3 weeks ago. This truck has about 78K miles and has 3 broken seat adjuster motors on the drivers side which has my back feeling like $hit. The passenger side seat has a broken recliner cable so that seat is at a straight up angle. The dash sounds like it's coming apart and that damn fold down drink holder squeaks so loud that you can barely hear the radio. Other than that it just rides like $hit. BUT IT DOES HAVE A CUMMINS ENGINE. Morral of the story is how much junk is one willing to put up with to have a CUMMINS. I dread driving this thing for 6 more weaks. Truely

What would you say if you were driving a 6.5TD? The interiors on those are great but the motor is a dog except empty.

I have to say when people compare older Dodge models to newer GM models there has to be a reason. The 2003 Dodge interiors are new and as tight if not tighter than my 01 GMC. The seats definately aren't as comfortable as the GMC was but hey... I'll take my nice interior with a HVAC system and stereo that works as advertised. Defrost.... what a concept.

I have no experience with the second gen Dodges. My brother has an 01 Dodge 4x4 gasser and has had little to no trouble with it. He loves it. Guess it also depends on how you take care of them.

I'm waiting to see a MegaCab up close. That will be a cab to reckon with. Out go the small back seat whiners. What's left?

Actually I was comparing that 01 Dodge with my 02 Dmax with right at 100K miles. I guess you can say older/newer but a year isn't that much and the Dmax had over 20K more miles. But hey, don't shoot the messenger. It is what it is.... Hopefull the newer models are improved because for my money it's complete package quality that counts.....

Actually I was comparing that 01 Dodge with my 02 Dmax with right at 100K miles. I guess you can say older/newer but a year isn't that much and the Dmax had over 20K more miles. But hey, don't shoot the messenger. It is what it is.... Hopefull the newer models are improved because for my money it's complete package quality that counts......

A year is huge when if consider a total redesign for the Dodge occurred in 2003. You should be comparing the current generation models since the third gen Dodge is current as is the 02 GM.

You could test drive all three brands and probably most would choose a Ford or a GM. I did... originally. Initial perception and interior comfort are strong early on. I wanted a different kind of comfort. Something test drives don't reveal.

A year is huge when if consider a total redesign for the Dodge occurred in 2003. You should be comparing the current generation models since the third gen Dodge is current as is the 02 GM.

You could test drive all three brands and probably most would choose a Ford or a GM. I did... originally. Initial perception and interior comfort are strong early on. I wanted a different kind of comfort. Something test drives don't reveal.

That's why it's good to have choices. Can't argue with that......

A year is huge when if consider a total redesign for the Dodge occurred in 2003. You should be comparing the current generation models since the third gen Dodge is current as is the 02 GM.

You could test drive all three brands and probably most would choose a Ford or a GM. I did... originally. Initial perception and interior comfort are strong early on. I wanted a different kind of comfort. Something test drives don't reveal.

Mikey; I like the way you spin everything to fit your agenda:eek: God forbid someone talk down your truck brand, regardless if it is Ford, Dodge, or GM. you can only see the flavor of the day, so to speak!:lol:

Mikey; I like the way you spin everything to fit your agenda:eek: God forbid someone talk down your truck brand, regardless if it is Ford, Dodge, or GM. you can only see the flavor of the day, so to speak!:lol:

No I just responded to a flawed comparison. Dodge isn't perfect and I have no problems talking about any problems I might have with my truck. Talk it down all you want. Expect a reponse, so what. All in good conversation and some fun bickering. :)

HAHAHAHAHA....This all sounds like a local rock and roll station that I listen to....one day on the morning show, the dj made a statement that a Vortec 454 would out do a Powerstroke (this was about 3 years ago) and for the next week, there were still guys calling him up and saying, "My dad's brother's uncle has a best friend who's mom's horse trainer has a truck with a super holley double nitrous pumper that can outdo a 454 any day!!!!!"
I have seen guys get more defensive over thier trucks than over thier wives. Talking down a guy's truck is like me (being an Oklahoma resident) going down to College Station and saying "TEXAS SUCKS". It would be more than stupid, it would be suicide!
Don't get me wrong, I love diesel trucks and when I get the financial means for it, I will be getting a much more powerful replacement for my 6.5 turbo. I just think its hilarious to read all the bragging rights on trucks. Especially when 5 years ago, the current models had more than enough power to pull their max gcwr just like it didn't have a load behind it.):h

I will be getting a much more powerful replacement for my 6.5 turbo.

At least you know where you stand :eek: ;)

HAHA!!!
I know its not the most powerful, but I can pull my 3 horse trailer up and down the interstate with 2 horses and the cruise set on 70mph and almost never drops out of overdrive....even on the hills. So with that in mind, I'm actually impressed with it cause I was leary about buying it from all the horror stories I had heard about the 6.5's.

This is good stuff....I like the bantering.

I have been a loyal GM customer primarily due to the fact they have been a good working vehicle for me. My gasser 3500's (93 and 96) were good and the 93 never saw the shop. My wife's Denali is great. Even my boat is powered by a 350 bowtie. At the end of the day this is all about preference I believe. GM, to me, has always had nice styling, Ford was always right up there as well. Not bagging on Dodge, but they are just kind of an eye sore both external and interior wise. They may have bettered themselves over the last 2 years or so, but they still have a very select small following. There must be a reason for that. I am not defending my position with GM, I am only saying my experience with them has been a good one. Some I know have not been so fortunate. The one thing I do find amazing still is we all want a "Perfect" truck that EVERYBODY will buy. Imagine if that was the case. Then who would we pick on?????:lol:

As for the power debate. I really do not care much who is top dog by 5hp and 15 ft lb tq, I would never notice it. As long as I can tow my junk up a 3-5% grade at 70 mph...I am a happy clam, whether it be Dodge, Ford or GM....I just want a truck that will last. I am not a "buy a truck every year" kind of person.

[quote=Duramax Dually;707048]Imagine if that was the case. Then who would we pick on?????:lol:

I would just keep right on picking on my nose just like I always do.