theres a local shop in my area that says they can use efi live or hp tuners with the new 2011 hd by taking the computer out of the truck and making the adjustments that way... have any of you guys heard of this?

id be interested in how this is done .i dont really care about the warranty anyhow.

theres a local shop in my area that says they can use efi live or hp tuners with the new 2011 hd by taking the computer out of the truck and making the adjustments that way... have any of you guys heard of this?


Your local shop doesn't know what it's talking about, EFIlive does NOT support the LML's. Might not ever, do a search here, long threads about it. Not sure about hptuners. Chris

i did a search in the efi live forums and they said somthing about other cars where you couldnt tune them from inside the car but had success tunning them with acutally pulling the computer out. Its just alot of work and every adjustment you do you have to pull the computer out. no one every gave a straight answer on the 2011 hd though

Your local shop doesn't know what it's talking about, EFIlive does NOT support the LML's. Might not ever, do a search here, long threads about it. Not sure about hptuners. Chris

x 1
thats what i hear too .would be interesting to see something happen .

You can read this, straight off of EFIlive's forum, all you will need to know. Chris http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13812-Info-on-New-LML-engines-for-2011

I contacted HP tuners and they said they will not support the LML.

Call me crazy, but when I was setting up an autocal Device last week I seen the LML pid selection option in the options file txt. I found it odd and wish I took a screenshot of it, it has not came up since and was probably just a bug of some sort.

Call me crazy, but when I was setting up an autocal Device last week I seen the LML pid selection option in the options file txt. I found it odd and wish I took a screenshot of it, it has not came up since and was probably just a bug of some sort.

Your not crazy. Not all the PID's work with EFILive BBL on the LML. Many do! So you can use EFILive on the LML as a scan tool, just no tuning :mad:

So Faucking gay no one else will tune the LML:rolleyes:

So Faucking gay no one else will tune the LML:rolleyes:

Thank GM for locking the ECM down to the point that it cannot be read. The companies that are tuning them will have some explaining to do if they ever get sued as the tune in YOUR truck is yours, but it does you no good if you can only read it by either pulling the ECM apart(not very feasible for 99.9% of us), or by stealing it off of GM's TIS site in some way shape or form. If you can modify the tune out of your vehicle it is legal, but if you can't modify YOUR tune and have to take it from GM that is BIG TIME illlegal. I sure hope this doesn't create a backlash on the entire aftermarket community if GM decides to start asking how people are getting these tunes.

LOL you really think GM would go after each individual? I'm sure if it ever came to that point the backlash from the public would be outrageous. It would be like charging everyone who ever took a song from Napster with piracy good luck.

Like Mike L said, no Hptuners support either. They explained the ecm can't be read yet on their site forum. Looks like it will be a long while before any real tuning solution comes out, if ever.

Bill@hptuners- "Unlikely any real tuning solution will be able to support these pcm's from the looks of it."

LOL you really think GM would go after each individual? I'm sure if it ever came to that point the backlash from the public would be outrageous. It would be like charging everyone who ever took a song from Napster with piracy good luck.


Not each individual person, but they sure could target companies like H&S or BULLYDOG and ask HOW they came about an unreadable tune? And I'm sure by that point they would have already have bought a tuner and did the searching to see what truck those tunes came from and already know the answer. The folks at EFILIVE put it best when they brought up CASPER electronics. They used to make all kinds of simulators to bypass the emissions system before custom tuning was around. Needless to say they are no longer around after the EPA got ahold of them and sued them for every part they sold to bypass emission controls(even though they sold them for offroad use), and then got hit by enviromental fines and such. The backlash from a company working in the grey area could caue the EPA to crack down on the ENTIRE industry. And the EPA could give a SH!T less what anybody else has to say.

So what does that mean for the future of our Duramax performance for the LML or the next duramax?

So what does that mean for the future of our Duramax performance for the LML or the next duramax?

Basically all of the smoker punks running around blacking people out has brought the EPA heat down on our backs, and they are going to do EVERYTHING in there powers top stop it. The reckless drivers of diesels are the ones to blame for the strangle hold GM is putting on the ECM's. It will only be a matter of time before other companies do the same and lock teh ECM's so they can no longer be read. FORD is using the same BOSCH EDC17 ECM as the LML/LGH's, but theres is readable. For how long, who knows though. It appeares to simply be a sign of the times. Then again somebody may find a way to do a cal flash to the EDC17 and install JUST the read code so that the new ECM's could be read. At this point in time though, it looks like the stack is back for the DMAX if you want more.

So the question begs to be asked... how did H&S create their tuner if the ECM is actually "unreadable"?

The thing that worries me is an (unbacked) report on TheDieselPage that for 2011 GM "tamper-proofed" the ECM's urea controls so that even if some kind of trickery was used to bypass it, it would eventually figure things out and shut down/throw a code/etc. That bugs me, because when the cat-pee injector system starts giving me trouble, I want to remove it and use it for target practice.

Blergh... I need to go talk to one of the electrical engineers here at work and see if we can solder up a breadboard with some basic circuitry to "trick" the ECM when it wants to inject urea.

I would really like to gut that emission junk and get some awesome mpg and horsepower out of this truck.
The turbo lag is terrible on these trucks stock.

So the question begs to be asked... how did H&S create their tuner if the ECM is actually "unreadable"?

The ECM is unreadable using the OBD2 port! The calibration file can still be read from the ECM using the test port in the back of the ECM or opening the ECM and pulling data from the main chip set. GM has the calibration code locked when flashed to the ECM.

With the LBZ and LMM Bosch ECM. EFILive can read the tune file from the ECM.

Using EFILive and changing the tune file. The tuner has the ability to lock the LBZ or LMM modified tune file and flash the modified tune back to the ECM. The ECM is not locked, that tune can't be read from the OBD2 port now. The ECM can still be flashed with no problems!

GM could change the calibration coding for the LBZ and LMM in some future update so the tune can't be read from the OBD2 port like EFILive has done. That will never happen.

As GM has new OS updates for the LML. EFILive hopes that GM might remove that lock in the calibration and the tuning will start.

I think most of us know that will not happen!

If hackers can crack into pentagon security, they can crack this. The right person hasnt tried yet, thats all there is to it. With computers nothing is uncrackable.

If hackers can crack into pentagon security, they can crack this. The right person hasnt tried yet, thats all there is to it. With computers nothing is uncrackable.


What GM did is quite simple yet affective. Since teh ECM doesn't need the info to read teh tune out in it, they simply didn't write it into the software. The ECM can be flashed no problem, EFILIVE has done this already I believe. The problem is that it cannot be read since there is basically nothing there to read it in the programming. Hence why an obave poster mentioned it can be read by the internal data port with the right software, but not by teh OBD2 port. they basically cut the hard line from the port to the hard drive for reading purposes, but left it so it can still receive. And if the owner of a truck cannot pull HIS tune out of HIS truck and modify HIS tune, then that only leaves him with the ability to modify somebody elses tune that was read out of an ECM with a bench plug hooked into the ECM's internal data port directly.

When you do this you are in clear violation of the law's regarding the software as you are no longer working with the software that came with your truck, but instead using a pirated copy of somebody elses. It would be like if you had a bunch of CD's and loaded them to your IPOD. This is legal since it is music you own and you are using it for yourself. But if you take your CD's and upload them to the internet and distribute them freely, that is copyrigh infringement and you have now broken the law(remember NAPSTER?). EFILIVE is not willing to break the law or write software to be used to blatently break the law as it would ultimately come back on them(rememeber NAPSTER again?, all they did was write software that allowed people to transfer files from PC to PC yet they still got sued and lost). It all boils down to legality in the end.

If gm is going to do this then they should make a H.O. Duramax that makes 500 hp at the wheels then most of us wouldn't need to change there funding.

<snip>

When you do this you are in clear violation of the law's regarding the software as you are no longer working with the software that came with your truck, but instead using a pirated copy of somebody elses. It would be like if you had a bunch of CD's and loaded them to your IPOD. This is legal since it is music you own and you are using it for yourself. But if you take your CD's and upload them to the internet and distribute them freely, that is copyrigh infringement and you have now broken the law(remember NAPSTER?). EFILIVE is not willing to break the law or write software to be used to blatently break the law as it would ultimately come back on them(rememeber NAPSTER again?, all they did was write software that allowed people to transfer files from PC to PC yet they still got sued and lost). It all boils down to legality in the end.

I would argue the validity of this point. You bought the rig, complete with the software that's on it. There is no legal barrier to obtaining a copy of the software you already own. If you choose to **sell** copies of your copy for a profit, or give it to those who don't already have a licensed copy, that would be intellectual property theft, and we have a problem. Me making a copy of my truck's software and loaning it to a friend with the exact same truck for backup or modification purposes should not be a problem.

Also... would need to read the owner's manual line-by-line. Is there a software End User License Agreement (EULA)? If I didn't sign an EULA when I bought the truck, then I can do whatever the hell I want with the software on it. Even with an EULA, I can do whatever I want with the software in my own garage as long as I don't sell it for a profit. GM is free to tell me my warranty is voided, but they cannot come after me for IP issues if I'm not selling pirated copies of their software.

On a different but related tangent: What I don't understand is how the H&S tuners work. If they're starting with a pirated copy of GM or Bosch's software, modifying it, then making a profit reselling it as their own, I think that's illegal (depending on the kind of license on the software). If, on the other hand, they are simply plugging into the factory ECU and feeding it tweaked vehicle telemetry parameters to get the desired output, there's nothing wrong or illegal with that. Likewise, if they have built their own programming from scratch, they're free to copyright it and sell it for whatever price the market will bear.

That last possibility is not unrealistic. I know several software and computer engineers who, given the architecture of the board and the chip type, can write code from scratch for operation of feedback control loops (which is what all closed-loop electronic engine controls are). We do that in my workplace every day (one group is designing the board, another is designing the engine control software). We're talking about controlling an internal combustion engine, which has been around for eons. The data on how these engines operate, fuel air mixtures, temperature effects, boost effects, timing, etc... this stuff is all known and available, or can be tested on an engine dyno. If they took a stock ECU, removed the factory software, designed their own engine control algorithms and loaded them onto the blanked ECU, then they're completely legal from an intellectual property standpoint.

I would argue the validity of this point. You bought the rig, complete with the software that's on it. There is no legal barrier to obtaining a copy of the software you already own. If you choose to **sell** copies of your copy for a profit, or give it to those who don't already have a licensed copy, that would be intellectual property theft, and we have a problem. Me making a copy of my truck's software and loaning it to a friend with the exact same truck for backup or modification purposes should not be a problem.

That is not what we're dealing with here, what we're dealing with is more akin to someone selling a plagiarized piece of literature. They've taken the original, bastardized and built on to it and then sold it. The original work was not theirs to use in the first place.

Also... would need to read the owner's manual line-by-line. Is there a software End User License Agreement (EULA)? If I didn't sign an EULA when I bought the truck, then I can do whatever the hell I want with the software on it. Even with an EULA, I can do whatever I want with the software in my own garage as long as I don't sell it for a profit. GM is free to tell me my warranty is voided, but they cannot come after me for IP issues if I'm not selling pirated copies of their software.

It doesn't matter if there is an EULA or not, it is intellectual property and is protected by copyright law simply by the act of their writing the code. If they've applied for more protection (copyright, patent, etc) then they are even further protected

On a different but related tangent: What I don't understand is how the H&S tuners work. If they're starting with a pirated copy of GM or Bosch's software, modifying it, then making a profit reselling it as their own, I think that's illegal (depending on the kind of license on the software). If, on the other hand, they are simply plugging into the factory ECU and feeding it tweaked vehicle telemetry parameters to get the desired output, there's nothing wrong or illegal with that. Likewise, if they have built their own programming from scratch, they're free to copyright it and sell it for whatever price the market will bear.

They work the first way. I agree on the last front; it would be great if someone could rewrite the entire program without infringing upon gm's intellectual property, but it's virtually impossible since they'd have to read gm's code to make it work and that being the case - the argument that they have stolen the code will be insurmountable.

Ah well, it's a great truck stock... I may just have to keep it that way if someone doesn't release some programming that fits what I'm looking for.

Just a little excerpt I found on the new ecm:

On Bosch EDC17 and MED17 ECUs
We've had many people asking why we need to open the ECU's of the later cars brought to us, and what is this "tuning protection" many companies are talking about. Here's a brief explanation of it. "Tuning Protection" for the Infineon TriCore TC-series processors (Bosch MED17/EDC17) On the CR TDI and 1.8/2.0 Turbo Petrol engines with the latest Bosch ECU generation (MED17 for the petrols, EDC17 for the diesels, I'll just refer them to MEDC17 from now on...), Bosch has implemented some new security measures to protect against aftermarket reprogramming of the engine control unit calibration data. Bosch originally started to use various checksums in the late 80's to verify the data integrity of the engine control unit memory content. Originally this was just a simple additive checksum, where you count the sum of all bytes in the file, and store the value in one place. Later on, it was also used to protect the data from unauthorised modifications (thats us...). For example, ME7.5 ECU (1.8 Turbo) contains about 70 different checksum blocks, and the result values are filtered through various functions to have a secure method of verifying data integrity. At around the same time, Bosch started using access control on the outside ECU reprogramming (that is what we call the OBD flashing nowadays). It's usually a normal challenge-response scheme with a seed-key algorithm. Of course, the chiptuning industry kept on and solved these functions to have methods of correcting the checksums, and to have OBD programming capability of these ECUs. About 7-8 years ago, Bosch started using RSA signatures to control the ECU contents. Early on, just a 256bit RSA, then 512bit RSA, and nowadays, on these new ECUs, its a hash from a 1024Bit RSA signature. Something thats virtually un-crackable with traditional brute force methods. Since these keys are yet to be solved, tuners have had to find other ways of programming the ECUs. When the MEDC17 ECU family was released, a backdoor was found in the programming algorithm. Originally this hash was checked only after certain conditions were met. If they are not met, it was not checked. So the programming method made sure that was the case every time they programmed the ECU. This "Tuning Protection", as it is commonly called, just means that this backdoor has been sealed, and the ECU always checks the hash validity after every OBD programming attempt. If this is not valid, it sets a flag in the memory that prevents the car from starting. Our tools can detect this function just by reading the ECU via OBD. Many others, including some big brand names, have problems with cars not starting after writing. That is why, for now, on these protected ECU's, we need to open the ECU to use a processor function built in the TC17xx-series processors, which allows us to boot and reset the ECU at any given moment from pins on the motherboard. This way the ECU does not detect it as being an OBD programming attempt, and skips the hash validity check. At this time, there are no tuning companies who can bypass this security check and if an ECU has "Tuning Protection" then it will need to be programmed by taking the ECU out and opening it. Some call it "bench flash", some say they "install a probe", but this is how it is done by ALL tuners who are offering remaps on "protected" MEDC17 ECUs.

So the question begs to be asked... how did H&S create their tuner if the ECM is actually "unreadable"?

.


Because the guy that cracked it is a smart mofo.

the whole efi cant read it is a bunch of bs.

I was there the entire time it was getting hacked and cracked.

That's kinda what I figured. Like I said in one of my earlier posts... I work with guys who do this stuff every day. There are some really smart guys who can work this stuff.

What I'm more surprised at is how nobody seems to just start from scratch and make their own engine management code from the ground up. I work with guys who do just that every single day. Hell, the engine they're doing this on even runs "heavy fuel" (jet fuel... similar to diesel). Engines are well-understood machines. Fuel air mixtures, compression ratios... we're talking about a machine that's been in existence for over a hundred years. With one of these modern engines, you have nine zillion sensors to tap into, which just means you have more tools to adapt to changing conditions.

If you want to play, you have to pay. Why give the efi and hp guys a hard time. if they crack it, we will know.

The only reason the manufacturers have done this is because of people altering their trucks and damaging them then taking them to the dealership for "warranty" repairs when they know full well it's been altered from OEM spec.

The only reason the manufacturers have done this is because of people altering their trucks and damaging them then taking them to the dealership for "warranty" repairs when they know full well it's been altered from OEM spec.
Correct. The manufacturer's goal is simply financial: not being stuck with repair bills for hopped up engines that, thanks to the new computerized tuning method, can be put back into stock configuration simply by switching out the ECM.

But the EPA is also a player in this, putting pressure on the automakers to make it more difficult for emissions controls to be deactivated, and putting pressure on the tuner manufacturers/sellers for selling the tools to do it.

What GM did is quite simple yet affective. Since teh ECM doesn't need the info to read teh tune out in it, they simply didn't write it into the software. The ECM can be flashed no problem, EFILIVE has done this already I believe. The problem is that it cannot be read since there is basically nothing there to read it in the programming. Hence why an obave poster mentioned it can be read by the internal data port with the right software, but not by teh OBD2 port. they basically cut the hard line from the port to the hard drive for reading purposes, but left it so it can still receive. And if the owner of a truck cannot pull HIS tune out of HIS truck and modify HIS tune, then that only leaves him with the ability to modify somebody elses tune that was read out of an ECM with a bench plug hooked into the ECM's internal data port directly.

When you do this you are in clear violation of the law's regarding the software as you are no longer working with the software that came with your truck, but instead using a pirated copy of somebody elses. It would be like if you had a bunch of CD's and loaded them to your IPOD. This is legal since it is music you own and you are using it for yourself. But if you take your CD's and upload them to the internet and distribute them freely, that is copyrigh infringement and you have now broken the law(remember NAPSTER?). EFILIVE is not willing to break the law or write software to be used to blatently break the law as it would ultimately come back on them(rememeber NAPSTER again?, all they did was write software that allowed people to transfer files from PC to PC yet they still got sued and lost). It all boils down to legality in the end.


so they can tune it they just have to pull the computer out of the truck to read the stock file then they can make adjustments the the odbII port?

Correct. The manufacturer's goal is simply financial: not being stuck with repair bills for hopped up engines that, thanks to the new computerized tuning method, can be put back into stock configuration simply by switching out the ECM.

But the EPA is also a player in this, putting pressure on the automakers to make it more difficult for emissions controls to be deactivated, and putting pressure on the tuner manufacturers/sellers for selling the tools to do it.


E normous

P ains in the

A $$

so they can tune it they just have to pull the computer out of the truck to read the stock file then they can make adjustments the the odbII port?

Yes they can read it with the ECM out of the truck. This gives tou access to the tune in THAT ECM, and it is only legal to use it for THAT ECM. When you distribute it you are causing copyright issues, and I believe the backlash is now being felt by the diesel community as evidenced by the recent announcement of HPTUNERS now no longer offerring DPF delete tunes with there software.

Yes they can read it with the ECM out of the truck. This gives tou access to the tune in THAT ECM, and it is only legal to use it for THAT ECM. When you distribute it you are causing copyright issues, and I believe the backlash is now being felt by the diesel community as evidenced by the recent announcement of HPTUNERS now no longer offerring DPF delete tunes with there software.

I don't believe that a copyright infringement has anything to do with the current EPA investigations on emissions equipment removal. Not trying to start anything, just making things clear.

Any offense to a GM copyright would likely be enforced (in this case) by GM and would have nothing to do with emissions equipment being on or off.

Yes they can read it with the ECM out of the truck. This gives tou access to the tune in THAT ECM, and it is only legal to use it for THAT ECM. When you distribute it you are causing copyright issues, and I believe the backlash is now being felt by the diesel community as evidenced by the recent announcement of HPTUNERS now no longer offerring DPF delete tunes with there software.

awsome thats all i wanted to know if you can do it that way, not trying to distribute the tune just dont want somthing diffrent then a h and s

I don't believe that a copyright infringement has anything to do with the current EPA investigations on emissions equipment removal. Not trying to start anything, just making things clear.

Any offense to a GM copyright would likely be enforced (in this case) by GM and would have nothing to do with emissions equipment being on or off.

I never said the copyright issue directly caused the EPA backlash. I stated that I feel it has sparked a backlash for the whole diesel performance industry. Mike L made a post awhile back stating that your first video of an LML pouring out smoke had been seen by an EPA insider, and that tighter rules were coming down the pipe now because of it. As I recall nobody believed him and thought he was full of it. Well heres proof of what he said is true.

I never said the copyright issue directly caused the EPA backlash. I stated that I feel it has sparked a backlash for the whole diesel performance industry. Mike L made a post awhile back stating that your first video of an LML pouring out smoke had been seen by an EPA insider, and that tighter rules were coming down the pipe now because of it. As I recall nobody believed him and thought he was full of it. Well heres proof of what he said is true.

"When you distribute it you are causing copyright issues, and I believe the backlash is now being felt by the diesel community as evidenced by the recent announcement of HPTUNERS now no longer offerring DPF delete tunes with there software. " That is exactly what you stated... besides the point though, and gets us nowhere.

:rolleyes: Yeah, the EPA saw one video and decided to crack down instantly. Exactly what happened!

Has nothing to do with the EPA watching emissions bypass equipment being disabled by numerous tuning companies across the country since 2007. Or by the literally thousands of videos and web proof of end users using these emissions bypass devices in an illegal manner and for no other purpose than to emit particulate matter into the atmosphere. :D

The things that some people convince themselves of ... Yet H&S can post an uncut video of doing an "impossible" task, and it is said to be doctored somehow. And on top of that the video is blamed for being the cause for an EPA investigation into emissions controlled devices??? Crazy that if H&S caused the EPA crackdown, that they decided to investigate some of our competitors first! Great marketing scheme by us I guess!

Who am I kidding, I can argue all day and it will change nothing. You have your beliefs, and your right stand by it. This thread is directed towards HP Tuners and EFI Live, so I will bow out. Good talk though!

I want to see them get it just to stick it to the man, EPA rules are garbage anyhow


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app

I want to see them get it just to stick it to the man, EPA rules are garbage anyhow


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app

Doesn't matter what you think of the EPA, BUT THEY HAVE THE PEN and can use it to inflict damage to whoever they like to protect the environment.

I can understand people wanting to tune their trucks and make them better, but it's the people wanting to roll the coal on the street that cause the damage to everybody

I can understand people wanting to tune their trucks and make them better, but it's the people wanting to roll the coal on the street that cause the damage to everybody

Egg-smackly.

Irresponsible behaviour by the few will almost invariably result in rules that ruin things for the rest of us.

I have no desire to "roll coal" on the street. Actually, I'd love to get the thermodynamic efficiency of a diesel w/o the problem-causing DPF and somehow still manage to not emit any visible smoke. I want to be environmentally responsible, but personnel and property safety comes first. If the DPF is going to create a fire hazard for farm & ranch users and firefighters, there needs to be a way to remove it. The irresponsible users are causing an ever-stronger backlash which harms the folks who are just trying to go about their own business in the safest, sanest manner possible.

:rolleyes: Yeah, the EPA saw one video and decided to crack down instantly. Exactly what happened!

Has nothing to do with the EPA watching emissions bypass equipment being disabled by numerous tuning companies across the country since 2007. Or by the literally thousands of videos and web proof of end users using these emissions bypass devices in an illegal manner and for no other purpose than to emit particulate matter into the atmosphere. :D

The things that some people convince themselves of ... Yet H&S can post an uncut video of doing an "impossible" task, and it is said to be doctored somehow. And on top of that the video is blamed for being the cause for an EPA investigation into emissions controlled devices??? Crazy that if H&S caused the EPA crackdown, that they decided to investigate some of our competitors first! Great marketing scheme by us I guess!

Who am I kidding, I can argue all day and it will change nothing. You have your beliefs, and your right stand by it. This thread is directed towards HP Tuners and EFI Live, so I will bow out. Good talk though!


Your one video may not have been the sole trigger, and if I came across that way than I misconveyed my intentions. BUT, your video sure didn't help things.