I finally got my questions answered after speaking to GM Powertrain via phone today. This is what the man had to say:

The early '06 models are indeed an LLY with all the revisions that are going to be included w/ the LBZ. They strengthened the block somewhat,lowered compression ratio,7 hole injectors,pistons,new glowplug controller,PCM,heads, internal parts,specs (except horsepower rating due to lesser block) are the same as the upcoming lbz,with the exception that the LBZ block will be beefed up even further,i.e,mains,journals etc.

I told him I thought it strange that GM made these revisions w/out going the whole nine yards and was told it had to do with suppliers/availibilty,etc...

So it is a "tweener" afterall and is an LLY. Time will tell if it will be a problem child,I'll let you know how it holds up. Production was limited to a few months,though he did'nt have specific production dates at the time I spoke w/ him.

This information is condensed and limited so please forgive any omissions or errors,questions not asked,I'm new at this. Hope this answers some questions for you all,it certainly did for me and raised several more.

Thanks to Nick Richards @ GM for taking the time to answer my questions.
Be well, Be safe.

Exactly like I thought... The early 06 will be regarded as a "Bastard" motor.

Max,
I hate to think bastard child to the tune of 40k+ but am afraid you are right. Everytime I buy a GM I get it stuck up my culo(think wastegate). You'd think I would have learned after having to sue GM over the last one i bought,Oh well, hope it was good for them. I will say that it will bark the tires bone stock w/ no brake applied.Time will tell if this is going to a problem child when it grows up. Fu****G General Motors.:mad:

Interesting... I'm not worried about max performance, so the only thing that bugs me is future parts availability, both GM and aftermarket.

I'm wondering if anyone will ever have a programmer (for mileage/towing) for the '06 LLY?

FWIW- It's my understanding that the " 06 LLY" will still be the motor for the handshaker guys and for the medium duty stuff. Parts should not be an issue although power adders might be. LBZ is Allison ONLY.

I asked Nick about parts and he said they will go with the vin # so parts wont be a problem,obviously i didnt ask him about mods,tuners,aftermarket etc... I am concerned about reliability and the fact that GM did'nt let us know what we were paying that kind of coin for. I guess I'll have to consider it a collectors item and go away quietly. I'll cool off in a couple of days,still glad i have my answer though.

When you think about it, all of the electronics of the LBZ are already in place. If the performance companies produce a chip/programmer for the LBZ, it very well could work on a late LLY... As far as how they run now... much stronger than an early LLY in my opinion, and definitely quieter. Don't feel like you made a poor choice, it is still a Dmax, remember?

That's how I feel as well... I'm very happy with my truck. I certainly understand how 63teamster feels though... I mean... waiting a couple more months for another 50hp? In all honesty, I was aware of the change, as the first dealership I spoke with told me that they would be bumping the power in the fall.

On the other side of the coin... I'm not a big fan of buying first-year vehicles/engines. It's bad enough that I have a first-year Allison 6spd, but the 1000 is a proven design from a proven company, so I'm not overly concerned about it.
I waited until 2003 to buy my Tundra, and what I got was much more refined than the 2000 as well as having the brake issues fixed. My options this year were:
1 - Keep my '03 for another 2 years and have no trade value left at 250,000 miles.
2 - Upgrade to a Tundra Doublecab 4x4 and still have a gasser that can't tow more than 6500.
3 - Upgrade to the Duramax.

Had I chosen option 1, I would have been in the worst case position:
Toyota and Chevy will both release new truck designs in 2007 (3/4 and 1 ton Tundra/FTX). Well... there we go... back to the "first year gremlin" issue.
Toyota will stick a Diesel in the Tundra/FTX for Model Year 2008.
Now there's a 1 y/o truck with a brand new Diesel design. Major potential for gremlins... and the new GM design still only a year old, so perhaps a better choice with a proven engine/tranny (assuming the LBZ will be solid by then) in the new body.

Nahh... I'm happy.

Edge says the 06 LLY has to many cnages and too short of run for them to even come out for a tune for it. They say they will resume with the LBZ.

Edge says the 06 LLY has to many cnages and too short of run for them to even come out for a tune for it. They say they will resume with the LBZ.

Well that's wonderful, I guess it removes all the temptation to Mod it.

Edge says the 06 LLY has to many cnages and too short of run for them to even come out for a tune for it. They say they will resume with the LBZ.

Thats kinda stupid as the manual will still be the same LLY...

Thats kinda stupid as the manual will still be the same LLY...
The manual is probably the same LLY as the '06 (someone needs to look at one).
The '06 LLY has the new air filter, and apparently LBZ electronics... probably a totally different LLY than the manual.

Was saying if they keep the 06LLY for the manual Tranmision trucks why no power adders ?

They might, and probably will, but will they add in the protection for the Allison?

I don't see the problem with the 06 LLY from a user standpoint:

Stronger than LB7/LLY mechanically.
Better trans
Better cooling

From a hot-rod perspective, don't be surprised if the tuners released for the LBZ work on the 06 LLY.

Sorry about the attitude folks,my kneejerk reaction to finding out it was'nt a proven motor (lots of changes). I have owned and heard two many horror stories about new designs. I do like the truck and hope it will be as or more reliable than the previous version. Thats one of the reasons i got pissed off,the LLY Dmax has a good track record overall.The second reason is I should have done my homework.... Again,please forgive my rant.

You are all correct, my motor may be a large improvement over the" regular " LLY,it will be interesting to see if any body will make a tuner for it or if the LBZ mods will work.

On a side note,I took the truck to Edelbrock's Research and Development shop today for an 4-inch catback system and they said there was a minor change to the vehicle's exhaust and will require a modification ,I think it will need a slip coupling or clamp they didnt expect and i will have to leave the truck for a day or two so they can develop a setup to fit this vehicle for production. Talk about a big boys toy store,what a cool job that would be huh?

On a side note,I took the truck to Edelbrock's Research and Development shop today for an 4-inch catback system and they said there was a minor change to the vehicle's exhaust and will require a modification ,I think it will need a slip coupling or clamp they didnt expect and i will have to leave the truck for a day or two so they can develop a setup to fit this vehicle for production. Talk about a big boys toy store,what a cool job that would be huh?

That would be a great job.. *drool*

I ordered my truck so I would get the LLY.. I rather have it over the LBZ. I was worried I was getting the LBZ for a while.

I have the same type of feelings. When I really looked under the hood and realized that my '06 had the bigger air intake and intake air heater I felt like GM didn't tell me what i was getting. I probably won't mod mine for a while but I would at least like exhaust and air intake. Who know how long before those are available.

As for generally reliability I would like to think the 06 LLY will be better than the older ones if they indeed made the internal changes they clain.

This is my first diesel and hearing all the rants I had ahard time trusting the Dmax. Then again the only other options are a Ford or Dodge and I am glad that I get good mileage and can actaully carry on a conversation when the motor is running.

So whats the exact differences? Just a bit less beefy block and some programing???

So whats the exact differences? Just a bit less beefy block and some programing???
That's my understanding. Although I'm sure the air intake heater will be nice for the cold weather folks. I know I'll never need it in Cali.

so same turbo and all huh.......hmmmmmm........if its just programing then that can easily be remidied(and if the only difference is programing I dont see why lbz stuff wont work for a LLY). And since an LB7 block will take over 700 to the rears in my expereince I suppose that dont make the new LLY's all that bad. The only thing a LBZ would have over one is more power from the factory I suppose.

My thinking outa line???

I did hear one of the new LLY's and it sure was quite......and that would make sense.....I noticed it had that big intake air heater, kinda wondered if it just shared that and the intake with the new LBZ

I probably won't mod mine for a while but I would at least like exhaust and air intake. Who know how long before those are available.
Intake, no clue... I'm not so sure that we'd realyl want to change that. The feed to the turbo is a lot bigger than the '05, and the filter is a far better design.

On the exhaust, TTS is working on one for me now. I took the truck in for measurements last weekend and they should have something that works in a couple of weeks. Dunno how quickly they'll bring it to market.
The downpipe-back system should be the same if you want to delete the cat, but we don't know if the Fingers Stick will work, so that could be a problem.

I spoke with a guy who is tight with bullydog and they have a tuner working. I think he said they made a 600hp pull on dino with nos.

An LLY block will technically take the same HP (before something goes boom) as an LB7 block, correct? I heard Mrmagu blew his LLY and now Im suddenly paranoid im gonna stack two tunes and hear a big boom. Yet I havent really heard of anyone blowing their LB7. Although I think with Mrmagu there was another factor, like something going wrong with the Propane or something... Although I made a deal with myself to NEVER run propane. Something about having a bomb in my bed scares me...I know the tanks are safe and whatnot, but I just dont want to think what would happen if I ever (god forbid) got into an accident with a propane tank in the back. I would probably do nitrous before propane...and even nitrous scares me!!:o:

--Ben

JMO but N2O is safer. Plenty of LB7's have tossed thier cookies but some dont tell the tale;) Most trucks seem to take 700rwhp fine if all is ok with tuning and nothing wierd happens.....some grenade on less though, chalk it up to a small factory flaw in casting ect that dosnt rear its ugly head till you dump the go juice to it.

hmmm... have you ever run 'pane, Philip??

--ben

It was my understanding that the '06 LLY block and internals were the same as the previous LLY's (and LB7's for that matter). With the addition of the newer EGR, intake heater, air filter housing, radiator fan, and newer 32 bit electronic brain.

And the new LBZ will have a different block, and different (stronger) rods, etc (internal stuff) and carry over all that new improoved stuff that the '06 LLY got.

My guess is the MD's and Manual trans get the old LLY.

Am I wrong in thinking this?

nope....you're probably right. Thats how I see it...

--Ben

no pane, just NAAAAAAWS;)

the 01 to 05 blocks are the same no matter if an LLY or a Lb7,
700 to the rears on a regular basis on a lb7 will equal failure sooner or later , the LBZ block will work in the older trucks and everything will bolt up except some waterpump change that should not be an issue.
Expect some engine swapping to occur as the LBZ engines turn up at bone yards.

It was my understanding that the '06 LLY block and internals were the same as the previous LLY's (and LB7's for that matter). With the addition of the newer EGR, intake heater, air filter housing, radiator fan, and newer 32 bit electronic brain.

And the new LBZ will have a different block, and different (stronger) rods, etc (internal stuff) and carry over all that new improoved stuff that the '06 LLY got.

My guess is the MD's and Manual trans get the old LLY.

Am I wrong in thinking this?

From the very first post in this thread . . .


The early '06 models are indeed an LLY with all the revisions that are going to be included w/ the LBZ. They strengthened the block somewhat,lowered compression ratio,7 hole injectors,pistons,new glowplug controller,PCM,heads, internal parts,specs (except horsepower rating due to lesser block) are the same as the upcoming lbz,with the exception that the LBZ block will be beefed up even further,i.e,mains,journals etc.

I did hear one of the new LLY's and it sure was quite......and that would make sense.....I noticed it had that big intake air heater, kinda wondered if it just shared that and the intake with the new LBZ

Got 140 miles on my '06. It is very quiet. A guy I work with has a late '05 and we sat right next to each other with them running, mine is much more quiet. In fact one of the guys that rode in my truck was already in when I started it and didn't believe it was a diesel.

How can you tell which engine you have?

8th digit of the VIN for LB7 is 1, LLY is 2. We don't know what LBZ will be because it's going to be a few more weeks before any are delivered.

From the very first post in this thread . . .

My concern is why they would introduce a streghtned block on the LLY's and then design yet another block for the LBZ.

I'm thinking everything INTERNAL on the LLY is the same as it has been since '01

If I'm wrong, I appologize. I'm just thinking logically (first mistake when trying to figure out GM) from reading all the specs I've heard about the LLY vs the LBZ.

From what GM powertrain told me,the internals are different gentlemen.I also neglected to post in the first of this thread that there is a different turbo (from the 05?)
It is "variable vane" I think the guy said and has no wastegate as a result,makes it superflous.The truck has been @Banks Power for two weeks bing protyped and the engineers there have said everything on this truck is different and it's going to be some time before the electronics package is ready.They seem to be having tough time developing a CAC to fit this vehicle,I expect it to be there at least another week.I know Banks will have a six-gun setup for this motor (probably two or three months from now) but dont know about any other manufacturers. The engineer also stated they are betting that the prototyped system on mine will fit the LBZ. To me, thats saying a mouthful. I do not have any predicted horse/torque gains or any technical data from them yet,but am going to try and get it when i pick it up. Banks did say they will have a monster catback setup in approx three weeks. Bottom line,this is a very different critter than the 05.

I heard Mrmagu blew his LLY and now Im suddenly paranoid im gonna stack two tunes and hear a big boom.
Mrmagu blew his running a hot tune with pane and NOS.
He was shooting to maybe break into the 11's (he had just run a good 12 on #2 and NOS, no pane).
1/4 mile is 2640ft. McRat said that the oildown started at the 1000ft mark. He still pulled a 13.31... effectively coasting for over half of the run.
Would have been interesting to see the 1/8-mile trap time on that run.

I think Mr Lockyer meant to say the 1/4 mile is 1320 feet not 2640.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DURAtotheMAX
I heard Mrmagu blew his LLY and now Im suddenly paranoid im gonna stack two tunes and hear a big boom.


I am not sure of this bastered block of 06 your talking about but i do know the 07 block is going to be alot stronger, GM is going to have the hottest diesel they found a weakness in the old block, they are going to make sure this new block will not fail, as far as the old blocks go do not worry unless your making huge power you will be OK, programing will not be enough to blow out your bottom end.

My concern is why they would introduce a streghtned block on the LLY's and then design yet another block for the LBZ.

I'm thinking everything INTERNAL on the LLY is the same as it has been since '01

If I'm wrong, I appologize. I'm just thinking logically (first mistake when trying to figure out GM) from reading all the specs I've heard about the LLY vs the LBZ.


I would agree

The easy way is for someone to take a look at the part number for the cam, pistons, and maybe block for a new LLY and compare it to the old one;)

I cant quite understand the new LLY though. GM places all the new LBZ stuff on top of a redesigned block that will only have a production run of a 1/2 year, and writes programing to make it right at the same level as the last year LLY? Could it be that they built the new LLY with the intent that this new lly will just go intot he 6 speeds ect. I dont see them carrying over the old block and pistons ect and having one block for a stick and one for an auto? Alot of stuff dosnt make sense even for GM. And I dont think I would ever trust what GM's marketing guy says about the innards of a motor?

So who wants to look up some part #'s for pistons, blocks, cams, heads, ect???

8th digit of the VIN for LB7 is 1, LLY is 2. We don't know what LBZ will be because it's going to be a few more weeks before any are delivered.

Here is the VIN# of the truck I am looking at buying it's a 2006 2500HD crew cab # 1GCHK23276F100947 - as you can clearly see the 8th spot is a 2 (two) which apparently makes this an LLY engine -

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - I'm not real happy with buying a $48,000 truck and then having a newer improved engine come out - what's up with that !!!!!! Has GM gone MAD ...

Maybe I should wait a few months - any opinions please ...???:( :rolleyes:

Teamster did your GM contact say when it will be in production? Seems to me they jumped the gun when they announced it would be early Sept and we all know it's past

I think Mr Lockyer meant to say the 1/4 mile is 1320 feet not 2640.
Oops. Censored
Okay.... so he coasted for a quarter of the race and still pulled a 13.31.

JMO but N2O is safer. Plenty of LB7's have tossed thier cookies but some dont tell the tale;) Most trucks seem to take 700rwhp fine if all is ok with tuning and nothing wierd happens.....some grenade on less though, chalk it up to a small factory flaw in casting ect that dosnt rear its ugly head till you dump the go juice to it.I'm running pane, N20 and a TTS Extreme. Dynoing well into the 700's with plenty of 4x4 boosted launches and so far just an injector cup went. I guess now that I said it , this weekend at the track I will go BOOM!):h

This is what i know about the new blocks.the 07 lbz block is going to be poured here in Defiance Oh at Gm powertrain which is the foundry I work at, obviousily I am a duramax nut and have spent some time speaking to and bugging our dmax engineers that are privy to all the inside info on the old block and the new one, We our suppose to be the sole supplier of the 07 block but that is yet to be seen, as it seems the 06s are having lbz blocks put in them, however after reading this thread it shed some light on it, the old lb7 block was cast in germany and this is where to my knowledge the new blocks are coming from right now as the only blocks we have poured in Defiance have been for testing that I am aware of, the lbz blocks are stronger because the lb7 block could not withstand the testing they were put through-90%overstandard with cylinder pressures around 3500psi, in which (for those that are coming up with ways to beef the old lb7 stuff 0 rods were bent so if stronger rods is your fix prepare for blowouts)

GM expects the new LBZs to live, the allison trans to live, and all driveline parts to live at 360hp for 200000+ if you are getting a few lbz goodies now and a few lly goodies this is because something is not ready for 360 hp or production is not ready for some of these parts I would not falt GM for it cause in the long run you will be the winner as your truck should last a long time, keep in mind those of us who are hopping our trucks up are not the target sales, last but not least GM is not Ford they want to have it right before it is sold not let the public be the testers.

Us guys who are pushing the envelope will also benifit as a switch to the new block may be in order for our hp dreams to come true.(and last longer then a half season)

My concern is why they would introduce a streghtned block on the LLY's and then design yet another block for the LBZ.

I'm thinking everything INTERNAL on the LLY is the same as it has been since '01

If I'm wrong, I appologize. I'm just thinking logically (first mistake when trying to figure out GM) from reading all the specs I've heard about the LLY vs the LBZ.

some of the strengthing is realitivly easy and can be done to our old blocks as well, this is probably all they did for this run of blocks

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - I'm not real happy with buying a $48,000 truck and then having a newer improved engine come out - what's up with that !!!!!! Has GM gone MAD ...

Maybe I should wait a few months - any opinions please ...???:( :rolleyes:

Then don't buy one now! No one is holding a gun to your head....but the LBZ's without employee discount will probably be more expensive for you to own.

Maybe GM didn't quite get all of their stuff for '06 ready, and if something in the LBZ was not customer ready, and they decided to hold it back till it was....does that make them mad.....or just more customer focused than they used to be. I am sure they did not want to rush the new LBZ's into production and them have them blowing up like the early build 6.0 PSD's that Ford might have hurried into production.

GM has done wierd things like this before, anybody remember the 350 gas engine in 86. It was a crossover from one to another and was pretty much a bastard crossing. It used the new bottom end and the old heads and valvetrain, then in 87 they put the new heads and valvetrain on them. Just a thoght, maybe GM had to many leftovers and was trying to deplenish an overstock before they dove into a new engine.

I was told that LBZ wuld start to be used on 9/26/05

What kinda things can be easilly done to strengthen our current blocks??

--Ben

Druss, I neglected to ask him that,I was absorbed with all the changes made to the 06 motor and the more i thought about it,the more nervous i got. I think in the end this will prove a decent motor,if not, shame on me for not doing my research.

Druss, I neglected to ask him that,I was absorbed with all the changes made to the 06 motor and the more i thought about it,the more nervous i got. I think in the end this will prove a decent motor,if not, shame on me for not doing my research.
I'm getting 25psi of boost under hard acceleration (short sprint to pass).
Cruise on set to 70, pulling a fairly decent grade, boost ranged from 10 to 15psi, EGT hovered around 1000.
"Normal" EGT seems to be about 800.

8th digit of the VIN for LB7 is 1, LLY is 2. We don't know what LBZ will be because it's going to be a few more weeks before any are delivered.

It appears that the 8th digit/character for the LBZ engine will be "D".

D??? Where'd they pull that one out of??:confused:

--ben

D??? Where'd they pull that one out of??:confused:

--ben

Duramax Diesel..........hmmmm, I have no idea were they would get the D.

hahaha:lol:
oh boy...:rolleyes: Color me stupid.):h Or just dense.

---ben

Then don't buy one now! No one is holding a gun to your head....but the LBZ's without employee discount will probably be more expensive for you to own.

Maybe GM didn't quite get all of their stuff for '06 ready, and if something in the LBZ was not customer ready, and they decided to hold it back till it was....does that make them mad.....or just more customer focused than they used to be. I am sure they did not want to rush the new LBZ's into production and them have them blowing up like the early build 6.0 PSD's that Ford might have hurried into production.

O.K. - your right...

I'm currently looking at the Ford SD's

Well I just bought a 2006 LLY motor cause I couldn't pass the offer the dealership gave me. I still not too sure if that employee pricing will be out when the LBZ engine comes out........ Its a gamble I wasn't willing to bet $9000 on!

2 - Upgrade to a Tundra Doublecab 4x4 and still have a gasser that can't tow more than 6500.
3 - Upgrade to the Duramax.



I have a 2001 Tundra 4x4 Access Cab and I drove an 2005 Tundra Double Cab and frankly could see no difference in power. It must have been all eaten up by the extra weight. Nice truck, but no advantage unless the highway mileage is up and it had the same numbers as my 2001 on the window.

Is the Toyota still supposed to have a smaller (4.4 L) engine?

Toyota versus Chevy doesn't seem to be as easy a decision as I thought it was. I expected the toyota to be seriously underpowered. A friend owns an 03 sequoia and I have the 04 suburban. Towing identical cars, on nearly identical trailers mine had a slight advantage in grunt towing off the line...but his consistantly has 2mpg better mileage. If toyota would stretch it out to the size I need...would really be a tough call. Of course, now I'm looking very hard at the diesel and from that perspective...(cost not being considered) the duramax wins hands down. Only decision really is can I switch from the burb to a pickup...now that chevy says NAY to the duramax suburban......tough call.... Would be easier if the 6 liter in the excursion wasn't a complete hunk of Censored .



Bill

Bill, do like my Dad did.....Go to a CCLB and put a nice Leer cap on the back. You'll never get your 3rd row of seats back, but towing with a short wheel base Suburban vs a LWB pickup is night and day!

Thats one thing that a LOT of people dont understand about towing I guess. Its not all about if it has enough balls to move something. Its also about, the driveline parts living long term, stopping it, and also stability. But for a certian application a toyota ect may be just fine, not saying your wrong. Just an observation about people in general :) There is doing it and doing it right......

Certainly, when towing any load of real size there isn't much question, but in my case I'm talking about 2500lb porsche's and 2000lb open trailers. The burb towes it at 80mph no sweat, but gets about 11mpg. The sequoia did the same with about 13 mpg, I assume the duramax would hardly know it was back there....as does the burb with its weight, only it's downshifting quite a bit to hold that highway speed.

Bill

Is the Toyota still supposed to have a smaller (4.4 L) engine?
I-Force V8 is still a 4.7, but now with a 5spd auto and VVTi. Rumors are that the '07 (3/4 to 1 ton) gasser will have a 5.4 or 5.7... no solid information on this though.
No information at all on the planned Diesel other than it is expected "One year after the introduction of the new body design"

When you said car I was picturing something a bit heavier;) And it still wasnt aimed at you. Comes down to picking the right tool for the job and realizing that having the grunt to pull it aint the only thing that matters. Sounds we are on the same page though;)

Largest thing I towed was a large enclosed trailer with a road race set up mid 80's camaro inside. I was doing this as a favor becasue the guy puked the trans in his 1/2 ton 01 gasser and he needed the thing back home. No the duramax didnt notice it. But I wouldnt need that much truck to say pull a small trailer with a few quads on it or something like that. Pick the right tool for the job and realize just becasue a certian tool may get it done dosnt mean that a certian tool is best for it. I carry this over to everything. I plow snow. I have a big blade and a good sized truck. Stick me next to a jeep with a small blade in a big lot and I will plow circils around it. Stick me and that same jeep in some tight driveways or one of those funky condo villages and he will be done sipping hot chocolate with 1/2 a tank of gas while I'm trying not to back into buildings;)

Edit: I'm going to STFU now becasue this is waaaaay OT :o: