in a high horsepower, performance applications, why is it that the duramax seems to fall short?
maybe it doesnt fall short for someone who only uses his truck to tow his boat to the lake in the summer time. or uses it to pull a trailer for a business. or just a very reliable DD truck in stock form. but when it comes to actual diesel performance, it meets its demise at the feet of dodge and ford.

it seems that you can get a duramax to the 12's easier than the other two. (my guess is just because of EFI live. idk) but after that, it seems to hit a plateau due to rod failure. unless you have the coin to buy a $15,000.00 built motor. there are stock block 6.4L PSD's that are over 1000RWHP. furthermore, there are stock block cummins that are over the same benchmark of 1000RWHP. so why is it that the duramax dies sooner?

on top of that, why do so many duramax enthusiasts have the "if its not expensive, its crap" mentality? its rediculous that you have to spend (lets say) $500.00 on a part for a duramax. yet you can go to summit or jegs and buy a similar part, for a different engine, for much less. granted its mostly tubular parts such as IC tubes, up pipes, DP's and exhaust tubing. $200.00+ for a down pipe (esssentially a 2 1/2'' piece of bent tubing) is theft.

Um the duramax falling short? First time ive heard this one! If you think the guys winning in cummins and psds arent spending tons of money, your pretty gullable. As far as psds go, theres not a lot of them winning anything, especially in sled pulling.

I'm almost speechless after reading that post, but here goes anyway. If you build anything to the 1000 RWHP level be it a Cummins, Duramax, BBC, BBF, Honda, B&S, ect it's going to cost a fortune. Remember, horsepower costs money. The limits of all of the big 3 diesels on a stock long block it about 550-600 RWHP with any kind of reliability. Anything past that they all have there issues, all 3 have head gasket issues, Duramaxes bend rods, all 3 crack pistons, EGR coolers leak, Cummins drop exhaust valve seats, ect. As far as the need to buy expensive parts goes, a lot of people don't have the tools or know how to build their own parts so they're at the "mercy" of the manufacturers. This applies to all the big 3 not just the Duramax. My advice to you is if you think it's such a rip off don't buy it, maybe you should take up another hobby and save your money. And like Rob said, very few Fords can compete at the current level of any class in sled pulling at a major event.:D

1) in a high horsepower, performance applications, why is it that the duramax seems to fall short?
maybe it doesnt fall short for someone who only uses his truck to tow his boat to the lake in the summer time. or uses it to pull a trailer for a business. or just a very reliable DD truck in stock form. but when it comes to actual diesel performance, it meets its demise at the feet of dodge and ford.

2) it seems that you can get a duramax to the 12's easier than the other two. (my guess is just because of EFI live. idk) but after that, it seems to hit a plateau due to rod failure. unless you have the coin to buy a $15,000.00 built motor. there are stock block 6.4L PSD's that are over 1000RWHP. furthermore, there are stock block cummins that are over the same benchmark of 1000RWHP. so why is it that the duramax dies sooner?

3) on top of that, why do so many duramax enthusiasts have the "if its not expensive, its crap" mentality?

4) its rediculous that you have to spend (lets say) $500.00 on a part for a duramax. yet you can go to summit or jegs and buy a similar part, for a different engine, for much less. granted its mostly tubular parts such as IC tubes, up pipes, DP's and exhaust tubing. $200.00+ for a down pipe (esssentially a 2 1/2'' piece of bent tubing) is theft.


This guy has some real strange ideas.

1) Falls short? Meets it's (performance) demise? Are you nuts?

2) 1000 hp is a lot. And how many 6.4's do you know of?

3) This is an especially dumb statement. Who would those "duramax enthusiasts" be? I know a bunch and none have that mentality.

4) At Summit or Jegs, which "different" engine are you talking about. No matter which diesel engine, parts are expensive.

I think he may be trying to say that now days it seems the Duramax is the weakest motor stock for holding big power. We bend rods or crack pistons much sooner then the 6.4 or cummins. At least that is what I have been told, but like some of you said maybe they aren't telling us everything.

Supposibly Rudy's 6.4 went 9.4 or something like that on a stock bottom end:eek: Our stock bottom ends wouldn't be able to hold together to get the turbos lit with that much HP

6.4 and cummins bottom end will hold more than a stock dmax bottom end. There is no denying that. Having rods that start bending around 1200ft lbs is a letdown. But then again, at that extreme HP level everything is a crapshoot. You've already spent a lot on fuel and air at that point, so whats another 5 grand to put rods and cut pistons in a duramax?

That doesnt mean the duramax is "bad"...aside from the rods its an EXCELLENT platform and overall engine design for competing and making big hp once the rods are addressed.

IE, We have an undersquare bore-stroke ratio, lighter rotating assembly, lightweight engine (compared to 6.4 and cummins that weigh more than boat anchors), a solid valvetrain design that handles high rpm well, and most of all, stock head flow numbers that 6.4 guys and cummins guys could only dream of. Stock 6.4 heads and cummins heads are like breathing through a straw compared to dmax heads.

That one of the reasons why a cummins needs to run like 400psi of boost and a 6.4 needs to run 30 bottles of nitrous to make the HP we can make at 65psi and fuel only. :)

Just look at the competition scene...despite the lack of brute strength in the bottom end, duramax's have proven plenty well that they can and will run with the big dog cummins's. 6.4's have yet to prove that they can run with the baddest cummins's and dmax's, and they have yet to prove they can make big solid reliable power WITHOUT nitrous, despite the apparently strong bottom end.

Ben

6.4 and cummins bottom end will hold more than a stock dmax bottom end. There is no denying that. Having rods that start bending around 1200ft lbs is a letdown. But then again, at that extreme HP level everything is a crapshoot. You've already spent a lot on fuel and air at that point, so whats another 5 grand to put rods and cut pistons in a duramax?

That doesnt mean the duramax is "bad"...aside from the rods its an EXCELLENT platform and overall engine design for competing and making big hp once the rods are addressed.

IE, We have an undersquare bore-stroke ratio, lighter rotating assembly, lightweight engine (compared to 6.4 and cummins that weigh more than boat anchors), a solid valvetrain design that handles high rpm well, and most of all, stock head flow numbers that 6.4 guys and cummins guys could only dream of. Stock 6.4 heads and cummins heads are like breathing through a straw compared to dmax heads.

That one of the reasons why a cummins needs to run like 400psi of boost and a 6.4 needs to run 30 bottles of nitrous to make the HP we can make at 65psi and fuel only. :)

Just look at the competition scene...despite the lack of brute strength in the bottom end, duramax's have proven plenty well that they can and will run with the big dog cummins's. 6.4's have yet to prove that they can run with the baddest cummins's and dmax's, and they have yet to prove they can make big solid reliable power WITHOUT nitrous, despite the apparently strong bottom end.

Ben
Now that's an answer I can belive. Thanks for keeping it real.

I have to say wow. It's all in what you like in my opinion. I think the problem with the d-max is after 500 hp. Once you dump money into them they are awesome though. With the right tuning and transmission upgrades they are a beast. I love mine and have to agree that ford 6.0 is a painfully bad designed engine with problems. It has to be upgraded to keep up with either gm or dodge. Dodge is the SBC of the diesel world. They've been around longer and are easier to find performance parts for. I like the ride, allison and the rest of the truck too much to go with a dodge though.

Dodge is the SBC of the diesel world. They've been around longer and are easier to find performance parts for.

I disagree. Maybe that was true back in 2005. But nowadays its 110% just as easy to 'hop-up' and find performance parts for a dmax as it is for a cummins.

If anything, the dmax is the small block chevy of the diesel world...its just as easy (actually easier, because the stock turbo and stock injectors are bigger on a dmax, and the dmax has much better flowing heads, so it wont be huffing and puffing as much) to get big power out of a dmax.

The difference is (on stock internals) its easier to SUSTAIN big power with a cummins. You can take any dmax off the dealers lot, simply bolt on dual CP3's, install big injectors, bolt on twin turbos, tune it, and easily make 1,000rwhp. Probably wont last 2 passes down the track, but the point is its very easy to make big hp with a dmax.

The difference is (on stock internals) its easier to SUSTAIN big power with a cummins. You can take any dmax off the dealers lot, simply bolt on dual CP3's, install big injectors, bolt on twin turbos, tune it, and easily make 1,000rwhp. Probably wont last 2 passes down the track, but the point is its very easy to make big hp with a dmax.


I agree with you it is getting way better but as I said you can make bigger power for cheaper on a dodge. I LOVE my d-max and prefer it over the others. It does everything well. But on the cheap you can buy a 1st gen dodge and make 500-700 hp way cheaper. Transmissions are another story. Most folks aren't having to spend the money to make 700 hp like we are with a dodge. Still love my LBZ.

I disagree. Maybe that was true back in 2005. But nowadays its 110% just as easy to 'hop-up' and find performance parts for a dmax as it is for a cummins.

If anything, the dmax is the small block chevy of the diesel world...its just as easy (actually easier, because the stock turbo and stock injectors are bigger on a dmax, and the dmax has much better flowing heads, so it wont be huffing and puffing as much) to get big power out of a dmax.

The difference is (on stock internals) its easier to SUSTAIN big power with a cummins. You can take any dmax off the dealers lot, simply bolt on dual CP3's, install big injectors, bolt on twin turbos, tune it, and easily make 1,000rwhp. Probably wont last 2 passes down the track, but the point is its very easy to make big hp with a dmax.

Hell anymore it seems your lucky if you can get a built motor to last that long at that HP:rolleyes:

I agree with you it is getting way better but as I said you can make bigger power for cheaper on a dodge. I LOVE my d-max and prefer it over the others. It does everything well. But on the cheap you can buy a 1st gen dodge and make 500-700 hp way cheaper. Transmissions are another story. Most folks aren't having to spend the money to make 700 hp like we are with a dodge. Still love my LBZ.

not on a ve pump you wont. And it will be a smokey-ass PITA to drive/tow 500hp. You can do 500hp smokeless on a duramax WITHOUT changing injectors, turbo, injection pump, governer springs, valve springs, ETC ETC ETC ETC..

THATS why the duramax is easier to "GET" power out of, but the cummins is easier to "SUSTAIN" power.

Stock rods and pistons are good for 700 hp?

Stock rods and pistons are good for 700 hp?

not really, but basically for all the extra money its going to cost to make 700rwhp on a 1st gen (IP, injectors, springs, etc), you could put rods and cut pistons in a dmax.

Trust me, the 12v cummins isnt as "STOOPID SUPER SIMPLE DIRT CHEAP" to get power out of as all the hillbilly's make it out to be.

Sure, yeah ok, it only costs a screwdriver to get a 160hp 12valve.........to the power level of a STOCK duramax...

All I was saying is the short block is stronger on a stock cummins and they cost less $ to get to 700. I guess my point isn't going to be made. It won't be long and I'll get a socal 427 stroker. So I've made my decision on what I believe in. They have came a long way with the dmax.

[QUOTE=Iceman56;4331773

Supposibly[/QUOTE]

:anitoof::smashfrea:huh:

[QUOTE=Iceman56;4331773

Supposibly[/QUOTE]

:anitoof::smashfrea:huh:

:anitoof::smashfrea:huh:

What are you the *****in official spell checker?:rolleyes: You have nothin better to do? it's a forum bud most people mispell words all the time but it doesn't matter if you get your point across.

You really picked that word with one letter wrong out of that whole post:confused:

wow. this thread kinda when ape sh!t.

all i was refering to was the stock bottom end. BOTTOM end being the key component here. get one truck from each company and throw in some head studs and gaskets, put it on a dyno and add part after part untill someone throws a rod. the duramax will throw it first. thus making the duramax a more expensive truck for any sport.

im not saying it isnt a great truck. just asking why the rods crap so much earlier to be short about it.

so what i was wondering is why the PSD's and cummins have much more robust rods than a duramax?

This guy has some real strange ideas.

1) Falls short? Meets it's (performance) demise? Are you nuts?

2) 1000 hp is a lot. And how many 6.4's do you know of?

3) This is an especially dumb statement. Who would those "duramax enthusiasts" be? I know a bunch and none have that mentality.

4) At Summit or Jegs, which "different" engine are you talking about. No matter which diesel engine, parts are expensive.

1) yea. id say so. if a duramax is bending rods at ~600 and the other 2 are bending them north of that, then id say it lost. if you have to much brand loyalty to bite the bullet on that one, then your a tard.

2) there are several.

3) look at the comp cam thread on duramax diesels. comp has been making cams for YEAAAARS. they know a thing or two about them. they come out with a duramax cam with better pricing than most... just about everyone shits on it. if you read peoples replies, it gives you a vibe of "more expensive is better"

4) its a vague statement compairing gasser parts to diesel parts. such as fuel pumps, lift pumps, intercooler tubes etc. gasser parts are cheaper. why?

wow. this thread kinda when ape sh!t.

all i was refering to was the stock bottom end. BOTTOM end being the key component here. get one truck from each company and throw in some head studs and gaskets, put it on a dyno and add part after part untill someone throws a rod. the duramax will throw it first. thus making the duramax a more expensive truck for any sport.

im not saying it isnt a great truck. just asking why the rods crap so much earlier to be short about it.

so what i was wondering is why the PSD's and cummins have much more robust rods than a duramax?

Love my Duramax but I agree with you.

so what i was wondering is why the PSD's and cummins have much more robust rods than a duramax?

I dont know (and neither does anyone else on this forum), go ask isuzu/GM.

1) yea. id say so. if a duramax is bending rods at ~600 and the other 2 are bending them north of that, then id say it lost. if you have to much brand loyalty to bite the bullet on that one, then your a tard.

2) there are several.

3) look at the comp cam thread on duramax diesels. comp has been making cams for YEAAAARS. they know a thing or two about them. they come out with a duramax cam with better pricing than most... just about everyone shits on it. if you read peoples replies, it gives you a vibe of "more expensive is better"

4) its a vague statement compairing gasser parts to diesel parts. such as fuel pumps, lift pumps, intercooler tubes etc. gasser parts are cheaper. why?
1. eary 7.3s bottom ends are good for 500hp and the 7.3 in the sd are good for 450hp is i remember correctly..but yes as of now the dmax has the weekest rods.. why do they bend? probably not as stong.:rolleyes: 2. there are several at that range. do you think they are going to last long on stock bottom end? do you think they really care? if they have the $$$ to get the motor to 1000hp and everything else to handle it i dout having to get a new short block is going to bankrupt them. 3.not really seeing this but sometimes you can spend an extra couple hundred bucks and get alot better product..4..gassers rotaiting* assembly is alot lighter than a diesels, they have spark plugs to ignite fuel not compression like a diesel,so no need for the heavy built rods and crank. people have been hopping up gassers since the 50s(prob earlier). sbcs share alot of the same parts, same as bbc's. but mainly id say everything is alot higher is because diesel performace has skyrocketed over the last 10 years.. manufactors no that if the costomer wants the power they will pay the price..but look at it this way. how many gassers can simply tune there truck and gain 200+hp on the dyno? todays gassers are alot more expensive to hop up. look at cams for the 6.0 gasser vs older sbc's..or a turbo kit for the 6.0.its not just diesels anymore.

You really picked that word with one letter wrong out of that whole post:confused:



2...... It's "supposedly".....:D

I dont know (and neither does anyone else on this forum), go ask isuzu/GM.

x2..............Why is the sky blue?

x2..............Why is the sky blue?

the colors in the sunlight, angle at which solar illumination travels through the atmosphere, the size of airborne particles and atmospheric molecules, and the way our eyes perceive color.

DUH! LOL:D

[QUOTE=apayne86;4339712]1. eary 7.3s bottom ends are good for 500hp and the 7.3 in the sd are good for 450hp is i remember correctly..but yes as of now the dmax has the weekest rods.. why do they bend? probably not as stong.:rolleyes: 2. there are several at that range. do you think they are going to last long on stock bottom end? do you think they really care? if they have the $$$ to get the motor to 1000hp and everything else to handle it i dout having to get a new short block is going to bankrupt them. 3.not really seeing this but sometimes you can spend an extra couple hundred bucks and get alot better product..4..gassers rotaiting* assembly is alot lighter than a diesels, they have spark plugs to ignite fuel not compression like a diesel,so no need for the heavy built rods and crank. people have been hopping up gassers since the 50s(prob earlier). sbcs share alot of the same parts, same as bbc's. but mainly id say everything is alot higher is because diesel performace has skyrocketed over the last 10 years.. manufactors no that if the costomer wants the power they will pay the price..but look at it this way. how many gassers can simply tune there truck and gain 200+hp on the dyno? todays gassers are alot more expensive to hop up. look at cams for the 6.0 gasser vs older sbc's..or a turbo kit for the 6.0.its not just diesels anymore.

good point.

wonder why the other 2 put larger rods in their motors. hmm... owell. thats life i guess. i have to say though. if my bottom end had the ability to hold 1000HP, then i wouldnt of had to spend retarded amounts of coin building my motor. i would have a CRAP ton more money lol.

[QUOTE=apayne86;4339712]1. eary 7.3s bottom ends are good for 500hp and the 7.3 in the sd are good for 450hp is i remember correctly..but yes as of now the dmax has the weekest rods.. why do they bend? probably not as stong.:rolleyes: 2. there are several at that range. do you think they are going to last long on stock bottom end? do you think they really care? if they have the $$$ to get the motor to 1000hp and everything else to handle it i dout having to get a new short block is going to bankrupt them. 3.not really seeing this but sometimes you can spend an extra couple hundred bucks and get alot better product..4..gassers rotaiting* assembly is alot lighter than a diesels, they have spark plugs to ignite fuel not compression like a diesel,so no need for the heavy built rods and crank. people have been hopping up gassers since the 50s(prob earlier). sbcs share alot of the same parts, same as bbc's. but mainly id say everything is alot higher is because diesel performace has skyrocketed over the last 10 years.. manufactors no that if the costomer wants the power they will pay the price..but look at it this way. how many gassers can simply tune there truck and gain 200+hp on the dyno? todays gassers are alot more expensive to hop up. look at cams for the 6.0 gasser vs older sbc's..or a turbo kit for the 6.0.its not just diesels anymore.

good point.

wonder why the other 2 put larger rods in their motors. hmm... owell. thats life i guess. i have to say though. if my bottom end had the ability to hold 1000HP, then i wouldnt of had to spend retarded amounts of coin building my motor. i would have a CRAP ton more money lol.

You would still be borrowing time. Even the cummins guys that are 1000+ and compete week after week have aftermarket Rods. You have to pay to play no matter what brand you own. Unless you run n20 it will end up costing you twice as much with a psd to get the power to actually bend rods, and if you ever made it to 1000, you would put rods in eventually. Cummins might seem cheap, but i bet the top pullers have just as much cash in them as the duramax.

1) yea. id say so. if a duramax is bending rods at ~600 and the other 2 are bending them north of that, then id say it lost. if you have to much brand loyalty to bite the bullet on that one, then your a tard.

2) there are several.

3) look at the comp cam thread on duramax diesels. comp has been making cams for YEAAAARS. they know a thing or two about them. they come out with a duramax cam with better pricing than most... just about everyone shits on it. if you read peoples replies, it gives you a vibe of "more expensive is better"

4) its a vague statement compairing gasser parts to diesel parts. such as fuel pumps, lift pumps, intercooler tubes etc. gasser parts are cheaper. why?


1) It takes more than 600hp. These engines were designed to be reliable at certain power level. Make 2 or 3 or 4 times that much and things will fail no matter what engine you're talking about. They've each got their own weakness. I sure's hell don't buy a truck on the basis of it's connecting rods. Making way more than stock power costs in one way or another no matter whose engine it is. I'd rather put rods in a built engine than own a ford or something with the engine from a tractor. And that's a good one....you calling anyone a tard.

2) Damn few.

3) People on here have always wanted this stuff to cost less. With the cams.....there are some who think it makes them look knowledgeable to be slamming things.

4) The diesel speed equipment market is fairly new and very tiny compared to gas engines. Greater volume = lower cost.

Once your above 600 at the wheels it realy doesn't matter, bitch all you want about weaker a bottom end but do you realy think that a cummins or power stroke at that level didn't cost as much or more then a comparable d-max with rods? There's allot of hype that goes with the cummins and most of it comes from how simple the 12 valves were to get such a tremendous power increase for basically free, but the reality of that is a tuned up 12v wont hang with a bone stock lb7 in most cases, I know first hand. cummins guys think that there stuff is so bullet proof, nothing is immune to failure at super high levels. For some reason everyone loves cummins, even the slow ones are fast to the average guy, they really did build that name up.

The way I see it, in most cases D-max is the fastest on the street per price, once you get into real competition its all expensive anyways.


by the way, If you think downpipes are so simple and overpriced, build one. Mine was almost free and not super difficult. I'm sure longtubes for a 350 were expensive as hell in 1975. With time prices will go down.

The 6.4L powerstroke is easy to make power, but they sure have a cluttered engine bay and are tougher to work on than the other two. It is also the only powerstroke to make the power level spoken of in this thread without being built. The 6.0 could hardly hold stock tuning without lifting the heads, and the 7.3's rods have there limits. Don't common rail cummins stock bottom end start bending rods around 800 hp or so?

I guess Isuzu and GM didn't care that their 300hp rated stock duramax wouldn't hold 1000 hp! Damn them!

The differences are what they are. Maybe a 6.4 or cummins would be a better choice for the some. I will just have to settle for 3rd place with the lowly Duramax.:cool: Build what you like, its gonna cost a lot of money no matter what.

I'm a duramax fan, but I was talking to Gillet Diesel the other day and they told me in the last few months, 99% of the trucks in their shop for performance mods are the new 6.4 PSD's. There tranny's are holding 500hp all day long, STOCK. But then again, a 500wrhp PSD vs. a 500wrhp Duramax, the duramax will beat it on the track.