Ok here is the deal, wife wants to by a 5th wheel so that we can explore this beautiful country of ours and our neigbours to the south. I have a 06 2500HD loaded with an LBZ and a mild tune that I built myself Tires are 10ply BFG's all terrains so they can handle the weight. The truck has a GCVW of 22000lbs and a max trailer weight of 12000lbs . The truck with the family in it and some load, and a 1/4 tank of fuel weighs 3600Kg (7936Lbs.) at the weigh scale last night. The wife wants us to tow the fifth wheel and the boat to go exploring (yes I know I need a Class A license to do this in Ontario, no big deal I will get one) Boat weighs close to 3000lbs loaded so 5er has to be less than 9000lbs loaded. We wouldn't be taking the boat accross the country just local stuff probably less than 6 hours driving. My first concern is the safety of my family and second is wear and tear on the truck (truck is replaceable family not) so here are my questions:


I purchased a Tekonsha P3 to install in the truck firsty thing I noticed was that the plug and play harnes is always Live? the unit is powered on all the time? sounds dumb to me. It only fits in one spot on the fuse panel by your left foot anybody else experience this? How do you fix it?
Where did you mount your P3? Anywhere I put it it seems to be in the way. The best spot I think it shoud go is inbetween the lighter and the 12volt power plug in the center console. That way it is accesible and that litlle cubby hole is useless for me anyways? Has anybody done this?
Is a Transgo Jr kit something I should be considering? The truck should be capable of towing 12000lbs all day long in it's stock configuration, but the EFI tune makes it no longer stock. Anybody towing max weight on a regular basis with these trucks and how do they last?
What makes a tow tune? I built a tune by adding some pulse width and basically turning off some emmision related items and the truck runs fine. I have towed with it that's why I bought it but nothing close to max load over a long distance.
Anybody running a Pullrite Superglide 18K hitch? It seems to make sense to go with this once and be done with, just hate listening to sales people regarding use of their product.
Anything else I should consider for the truck?
I think thats it for now any help would be apprecaited.

Ok here is the deal, wife wants to by a 5th wheel so that we can explore this beautiful country of ours and our neigbours to the south. I have a 06 2500HD loaded with an LBZ and a mild tune that I built myself Tires are 10ply BFG's all terrains so they can handle the weight. The truck has a GCVW of 22000lbs and a max trailer weight of 12000lbs . The truck with the family in it and some load, and a 1/4 tank of fuel weighs 3600Kg (7936Lbs.) at the weigh scale last night. The wife wants us to tow the fifth wheel and the boat to go exploring (yes I know I need a Class A license to do this in Ontario, no big deal I will get one) Boat weighs close to 3000lbs loaded so 5er has to be less than 9000lbs loaded. We wouldn't be taking the boat accross the country just local stuff probably less than 6 hours driving. My first concern is the safety of my family and second is wear and tear on the truck (truck is replaceable family not) so here are my questions:


I purchased a Tekonsha P3 to install in the truck firsty thing I noticed was that the plug and play harnes is always Live? Yes the unit is powered on all the time? Yes sounds dumb to me. It stays on when the key is on but will only send power to the trailer brakes when connected to a trailer. It only fits in one spot on the fuse panel by your left foot anybody else experience this? How do you fix it? Thats where it goes, Percetly normal.
Where did you mount your P3? Anywhere I put it it seems to be in the way. The best spot I think it shoud go is inbetween the lighter and the 12volt power plug in the center console. That way it is accesible and that litlle cubby hole is useless for me anyways? Has anybody done this? Thats a great spot, I installed mine there and works great, pic in garage.
Is a Transgo Jr kit something I should be considering? Yes, always The truck should be capable of towing 12000lbs all day long in it's stock configuration, but the EFI tune makes it no longer stock. Anybody towing max weight on a regular basis with these trucks and how do they last? My 5th Wheel is 17,000lbs, I pull it all over the states whith no problems but I do have many mods. A Transgo Jr. IMO would be a good investment.
What makes a tow tune? I built a tune by adding some pulse width and basically turning off some emmision related items and the truck runs fine. I have towed with it that's why I bought it but nothing close to max load over a long distance. Sorry, can't help with this one, when I am towing I switch to Nick's 335whp tow tune.
Anybody running a Pullrite Superglide 18K hitch? It seems to make sense to go with this once and be done with, just hate listening to sales people regarding use of their product. I have a long bed, so I installed reese 18k signature series.
Anything else I should consider for the truck? Air bags with compessor.
I think thats it for now any help would be apprecaited.


:)

Thanks BHoward6.6 You said that it Stays on with the key on but mine stays on all the time key or no key?

Yes, the P3 is live all the time. That's normal.

It is fine- is should take a long time to wear the battery down! The only other thing I can think of is if you are running a tune is a Pyro gauge- I believe this would be a good idea. I also agree the bags would make a little better ride/less sag, etc. Happy Camping!!

my p3 times out after about 10mins of turning the key off, i thought the samething that something was wrong with it

my p3 times out after about 10mins of turning the key off, i thought the samething that something was wrong with it
:exactly:

Thanks I never left it on that long just plugged it in to make sure it worked, I will try it again this week.

The brake controller will go dormant after 10-15 minutes of no brake activity; basically turns itself off after no signal input (use of brake), presuming nothing is plugged into the trailer circuit. If something is plugged in, it stays active indefinitely.

As for suggestions for your quest, I have one. Get a 5ver that is designed for a half-ton truck. They are lighter; much lighter. Don't get greedy with tons of options and stuff. You're going to need to save every pound you can, given your desire to double-tow. Make sure you look into the rear frame area so that you know how/where to install a tow hitch; need good structure and mount points. Here is where you might run into an issue; lighter TTs and 5vers don't have the frame to support large add-ons. Heavier ones have better frames, but that starts to push your loads excessively high.

Take your boat to the weighscale too, and double check that load. Plus, make sure your boat trailer has surge brakes. If not, you're asking too much of your service brakes and 5ver brakes.

As for your tranny, I'd stick to stock settings on your engine. The trans-go cannot compensate for the loads the torque converter will see; if I understand the upgrade correctly, it will apply clutches with more force, etc. But that does nothing for the torque converter itself. Typically, the Ally t/c is good for no more than 80hp or so over stock. And now you want to add 12k pounds to that stock tranny and modded engine? Probably not going to last long.

Finally, understand that air bags will NOT increase your ability to carry loads. Do NOT let the concept of load leveling and ride quality somehow turn into one of too much weight. People are often tempted to compensate for much heavier loads by adding air bags. It's ok to use them to level the truck as long as the load stays at or under the official GM limits, but using air bags to level out a truck when overloaded is wrong and dangerous.

Regarding your licence and weight...from a fellow Ontarian who's extremely familiar with the situation (see my other posts in the towing forum), here's some advice:

(EDIT: Missed the part about doubles...read my response below before quoting any of this.. :) )

1/ Get the new class AR licence. It's similar for weight allowances to the full class AZ, but without the air brake endorsement, and with several restrictions that prevent you from driving *actual* commercial equipment. It's designed exactly for people like you, and is MUCH easier to obtain versus a full blown class A which it sounds like you won't need after the fact. Alternately, a class D may work as well...but honestly, the AR will serve you better in the long run IMHO and is about the same (if not easier, possibly) to obtain since you will be dealing with 100% non commercial equipment.

2/ Weigh your truck loaded and ready for camping, with full water, propane, and holding tanks, add 1000#, and register your trucks (GRVW) for that amount. As long as you are legally within your axle weights, GCWR is irrelevant. That doesn't mean you should go free reign with running over your weights, but GCWR is not a legally enforceable figure - as long as you are registered for your weight, and within your axle ratings (which IS legally enforceable) you're good to go.

Also take note that in Ontario, if your truck's GVWR is 4500KG or over (You'rs probably is) then to be legal you need an annual inspection, and the corresponding yellow sticker.

Sorry, I missed the part about you wanting to pull doubles. In that case, you WILL need a class A licence.

Take note that a surprising number of US states and provinces do not allow doubles, so if your goal is to travel a lot, be prepared to dance around a lot of states, or be completely restricted from many areas - the eastern seaboard of the US for example is almost entirely no-doubles. I know you said "local only" for the boat so that's not a biggie then by the sounds of it, but keep this in mind.

You will legally REQUIRE brakes on your second trailer. I don't recommend surge brakes myself as they are terrible for decending hills - they will quickly smoke themselves in a doubles situation - as soon as your decent brake engages in the Allison those boat brakes will be dragging themselves back there until the smoke starts a-rolling. I would strongly consider converting the boat to electric brakes and run a second dedicated brake wire (including ground) from the front junction box of the fifth wheel to the boat - magnets draw a lot of juice and a dedicated line (versus tapping into the trailer brake wiring) is necessary for this sort of setup. The P3 can handle up to 6 brakes IIRC so it won't have any problems controlling both trailers.

As Dnewton touched on in his response, you're going to find yourself tipping the scales really quickly unless you get a small/light fifth wheel given you want to tow another 3000# behind it. Unfortunately, small/light fifth wheels are not always suitable as the lead in a combination as they are built with really light materials - you will have to get a hitch custom fabricated by someone who knows what they're doing.

Regarding your P3;
If you seasonally tow and have longer periods where you are not using the electric brakes, unhook the red trailer power wire in the underhood fuse box.
The galvanic action of being constantly powered may contribute to corrosion on the pins requiring extra maintance or it not working when you want it to.

(assuming it has the same wire my LMM has)

Thanks guys, yes there is alot to think about and decide whether it is worth it or not. My wife is now waffling on the idea so I am still going to get the truck ready and everything wieghed just for piece of mind. The one place I haven't called yet is the insurance company so they might make it cost prohibitve. At the end of the day thanks for the help and spending a couple of bucks on the truck doesn't matter it will get used.:)

12000 lbs is for weight distributing hitch on a travel trailer type setup with ball mount and receiver hitch. Check your manual and find you Dmax/Ally/CC configuration and it will list max towing weight for gooseneck/fifth wheel towing. I don't remember it off top of my head, but it is more than 12k lbs. I have a 2006LLY CC SWB 4x4 and it is more than 12k lbs in gooseneck/fiver towing. That will buy you a little wiggle room and the pin weight gives a % range to be in. Dnewton has right idea if you are going to stay in your towing and axle/GVWR/GCWR limits of your truck.

As long as you are legally within your axle weights, GCWR is irrelevant. That doesn't mean you should go free reign with running over your weights, but GCWR is not a legally enforceable figure - as long as you are registered for your weight, and within your axle ratings (which IS legally enforceable) you're good to go.


I presume culpability is still alive and well in Canada? I cannot speak to the road laws in Canada, but I can tell you that there are considerations to be made for GCWR. The GCWR takes into account ALL conditions; truck and trailer(s) with passengers, gear, fuels, liquids, etc, etc. The GCWR is very important. I suspect that your desire to pull a double may exceed your GCWR. And that may not get you a ticket, but it might put you into an accident, and then you'd likely have a bit of trouble in a civil lawsuit. And PrivatePilots notes about axle weight are true as well. You must look at ALL limits (loads, axles, GCWR, GVWR, max trailer/5ver bed loads, etc, etc). You must be able to pass all of them, not just some of them. You don't get to pick and choose which one applies and which ones does not. You might be OK with axle loads, but not GCWR. Or, perhaps your selected right puts down too much pin load. Etc, Etc. When you suspet you're going to be near the limits, you need to take the time to actually weigh everything. Make a list of all stuff; clothes, food, sundries, box fans, camping wood, camp chairs, shop vac, tools, generator, and on and on. You'll be really supprised how quickly it adds up.

If you want to double tow, you'll have to get a heavier duty 5ver chassis, which will greatly increase your loads near (or over) your GCWR. So you'd be way over pulling the boat. Or, you could get a lightweight 5ver, but then you'll not have good frame structure for the additional load of the boat and it's trailer. You'll be hard pressed to find an RV manufacturer that will advise you where and how to install a hitch on the back of your 5ver. RV dealers will tell you whatever you want to hear to make the sale; don't accept them at their word - ask for written proof. They will QUICKLY shy away when then actually have to put something in writting.

Simply put, you're probably in a "can't get there from here" situation. None of us can tell you for sure, because we're not there standing next to you while you shop. You may or may not be able to come up with a combination that works. But, even if you do, you'll be darn near the limit, with no margin for error.

Regarding "GCWR", I've had this battle/discussion with many people in the last 5 years, including the MTO.

"GCWR" is a figure that is provided by the manufacturer as a "recommendation" of what a vehicle combination should weigh, at most, according to their standards.

Seldom is the GCWR figure mentioned anywhere except the owners manual, and on the side of the road if you get pulled over by the DOT/MTO/Police, it's irrelevant - what does matter is if you are within your axle weights, your REGISTERED (GRVW) gross weight, you are within allowable length/width/combination/etc limits, and your licence class is sufficient. They cannot start leafing through your owners manual looking for a magical figure that won't hold up in court anyways.

These GCWR figures are provided by the manufacturer and represent what the manufacturer considered a reasonable "all out" weight at which the truck could still perform to their standards. Now, their standards include being able to drive the living piss out of the truck while towing and not hurt it. It includes being able to climb mountain grades while on cruise control while not dropping any signifigant amount of speed or gears. It includes being able to hammer on your brakes and screech to a stop as fast as a honda civic.

In other words, it's suited for the clueless people who only knows that one pedal makes the truck go vroom-vroom and go, and the other make sit stop, but couldn't point out their turbocharger under the hood if their life depended on it.

GCWR is not even found on heavy equipment once you go beyond the LDT segment - I don't even think the Kodiak members here would find it in their manuals if they looked. It's up to the common-sense of the owner to stay within what is considered safe and reasonable. This is why the power to weight ratios change so dramatically once you pass the LDT segment - I pull 60,000#'s daily with significantly less horsepower than many members around here have their Duramaxes turned up to.

Want a good laugh of how off-base it can be sometimes? My 1-Ton dually, once I put a load of firewood and few cases of beer in the back, is rated to pull a maximum load of about 5500#, fifth wheel or ball hitch, doesn't matter.

Now, I agree...yes, yes yes..there are limits. I'm not advocating that you hookup a 40,000# load to your pickup truck and expect it to be safe or reasonable...and I've stated it plenty of times right here. But I also don't believe that surpassing a magical figure that manufacturers are known to bend and massage anyways themselves (take a look at the current battle between ford/dodge/GM for tow ratings to see what I mean) is going to magically land you in hot water in any fashion if you exceed it by a reasonable margin. How much is "reasonable" is subjective and I agree should be discussed with others (with open minds) before proceeding.

I agree with you in principle. GCWR is not an enforceable number at the roadside. And yes, you "pay to play" so to speak, with your registration by purchasing different levels of axle load values.

The GCWR, however, is a recommnedation that can get you into hot water, and cost you big time, in court. If one has an accident and the vehicle combination is over the GVWR, then the lawyers are going to use it against you. If you're over by only a hundred pounds or so, it's not going to be much of an issue, but a grossly overloaded combination is going to be come an issue of "neglect" and "culpability". Being overloaded by a thousand pounds or more is going to encourage opposing counsel to portray one's choices as ill-informed at best, and possibly culpable.

We have two things to survive when driving:
1) the travels we take
2) the consequences of the travels we take

You might live through the first, to only be financially and emotionally crippled by the second. I've seen it happen to an acquaintenace.

That does not even address the issues such as "first timer" topics, etc. The OP is asking about advice for a 5ver, and considering a double-tow. That would indicate to me he has little or no experience with either. Let's say he goes from driving his nice truck in a daily sense, to loading up for his first big trip at max GCWR. That is going to be one hell of a learning curve. And, at max GCWR (or maxed axle ratings, towing, etc), you have little to margin for error. Any miscalculation in stopping distances, turning speeds, cornering clearances, etc is going to bite one in the posterior; you might be hurt, or someone might get killed.

It happens with motorcycles all the time. Rather than buying a small bike to get started with and learn skills on the backroads, some people jump in with both feet and buy the biggest, baddest, heaviest, fastest one they can find. And then they wreck and hurt themselves and possibly others. Not a good approach. That same concept often goes for people looking to get into the RV market. They want to combine their camping, fishing, motorcycling, etc all at the same time, and get into situations that get over their head. They can survive OK as long as all is well, but as soon as something goes wrong (too much speed, overloaded for conditions, not enought turning room, not enough emergency swerve room, etc) all hell breaks loose. And eventually, it will, to someone, somewhere. Even a good seasoned driver can have issues at these times, and being loaded at max (or over) does not help; it hurts.

As well, there is the whole "useage" factor. I've said it many times. If you're going to be at max loads, on a nice clear road on a sunny Sunday morning with light traffic, for a short 10 mile drive, then it might be worth the trip and a bit "easier" to manage the risks. But loading up a newbie with max GCWR, in a double tow situation, and start him out on a long trip with unknown roads in unknown weather conditions, and add in some fatigue from driving 10 hours, greatly increases the risks.

Let's not also forget the effect on equipment. Pulling 10,000 pounds can be done with a 1/2 ton truck, but it would really be a strain if done on a continuing basis. Doing it with a one-ton would be a breeze, and you'd likely still get a very long lifecycle out of the equipment.

GCWR is indeed important. For example, you could have no load in the bed, and two full dump trailers behind you. On a "per axle" registration basis, you'd be fine, but the GCWR could be WAY past logical. You could have 30,000 pounds of mass in a vehicle train, and the truck itself may only be rated for 22,000 pounds GCWR. Each axle is OK individually, but as a combination, it's flat out dangerous. That is why the OEMs created this system. You cannot look at just one criteria; you must look at them all.


Private Pilot, your approach seems reasonable and logical; I applaud that. Unfortunately, that cannot be said of all people. I am always concerned when people start towing with little to no experience, especially if they want to double up, and do it when maxed out.

When it comes to double tow situations, in some of the US states, it's a requirment to have brakes on all tow axles. And that can include not just commercial equipment, but ALL towed vehicles, including private vehicles in personal use.

If the OP wants to really get into this double tow set up, he needs to consider getting a very well made, heavy duty chassis 5ver, and get a boat trailer with surge brakes. And he would be well served to get a one-ton dually. That's a huge investment, but one that is one the smart side of things. Or, he can scale down, get a very light 5ver, but spend a lot of money in upgrading the frame/hitch of the 5ver.

In a way, both Canada and the US have "graduated" licensing systems. One does not jump right into driving 80,000 pound OTRs without some time and training under their belt. But when it comes to the private sector vehicles, people can just go buy what they want, load it up past "logical", and take off down the road. When that happens, I, for one, would appreciate each person have a bit of sanity and clarity, and not maxing out his situation, because the very persons he might hurt is me or my family.

Well, I can't disagree with you on virtually every point you put forth. Excellent play with the devils advocate game, Bravo. :)

In the end safety trumps everything for me, so I will agree that someone just getting into towing heavy is wise to stay within the "recommended" limits for their vehicle even though the legality or realistic ability to exceed (some) of them is easily there. I also agree with the reality that there should be more education or training required for towing heavy trailers, but that's a whole other ball of wax that we could debate in another thread.

I wish I could debate you on more topics we've both shared our opinions on above..but wow, you've got me. :D

Thanks guys for the input I didn't mean to start a big debate but, everybody means well and points are well taken. I am not a newbie to towing towed all my life, bought the Dmax for that purpose. I have towed 5er's just never with a short bed truck hence the super glide questions. The whole point of my post was about the safety of my family and the people around me. As I originally said truck can be replaced family not! I will make sure that I meet all criteria not just one that suits me on a given day. I live in northen ontario and trust me there is no bright sunny day on flat land that we drive. Road conditions change by the minute hence why I was asking the true ability of these trucks not what the manufacturer says. So I am still curious on the ability of these trucks to work that hard on a daily basis in real world conditions and how they survive? If it means I can't do it with this truck I won't and as I am finding like dnnewton3 said finding an rv manufacture to actually say you can do that with their trailer is not working out so well. The most common response is that you will void your warranty as soon as you put a hitch on the back of the rv.

Thanks Again

Yep, double towing is highly frowned upon by the manufacturers..no question there. If you ever need to make a claim that could be related to stresses being applied to the trailer that it wasn't designed for (frame issues, rippled/delaminated fibreglass, cabinetry separating from wall/ceiling/etc) rest assured they will look to see if there's any indication it was equipped to tow doubles.

You could argue that you put the hitch there solely for the purpose of giving you a place to mount a bicycle rack (as many of them are designed to be plugged into a trailer hitch receiver nowadays) but I think that won't fly very far..especially when they see the electrical wiring in place, etc. :)

I tow doubles with my fiver, but I tow a very light trailer (perhaps 750-1000# at it's absolute max, probably ~500# typically) so it's not stressing anything...and I bought used so I never had a warranty to begin with that I worried about.

It's definately something to keep in mind. 3000# isn't a paltry amount of weight and the fiver will definately feel it - tongue weight on the boat will probably be the biggest issue I'd think, you don't want to remove too much weight from the pin of the fiver and potentially make things unstable.

Your best bet is to remain within ALL numbers given by the manufacturer...GCWR, GVWR, axle ratings, tire ratings, etc.

Also, you stated your truck weighs 7,936 with a quarter tank of fuel. When you top it with fuel and subtract that new weight from your GVWR of 9,200, you will have only around 1,100 lbs available for pin weight...that's a pretty small 5th wheel.

Here's the P3 where you were talking about (I think?)

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/knaffie/06%202500HD%204x4%20LBZ/IMG_0589.jpg

Yup that's it. How did you mount it? I was thinking some industrial velcro on the top just not sure how well that will work. Was the plug and play harness long enough or did you have to extend it?

I did not have to extend the wires, but you do need to route them carefully - its close. I had to cut out the back of the pocket to put the wires through, of course. There's a big piece of really tough velcro on the bottom that holds it in piece, that's it. If you look really close, you can see the velcro. I figured if I didn't like how the mount turned out, its an easy and cheap piece to order from the dealer.