Recent posts in the Stanadyne thread disparaged Power Service/Diesel Kleen as unfit for anything other than pouring into the used oil bin. I want to use a proper additive, and am curious about that comment.

Does anyone have any empirical evidence or firsthand experience to support that Power Service/Diesel Kleen is harmful or at least ineffective?

Thanks,

Bud

run it regularly in my 2004 D-max and have not had a problem. It all comes down to personal opinion.

Bud, I asked that very question on that thread and none of the naysayers answered with any evidence. There is alot of good info on these forums. Unfortunately, one of the downfalls of them is that sometimes an opinion gets passed around and other people "parrott" what they have heard and the next thing you know, it's a fact. Even though no one has a shred of evidence to prove it. I have been getting my PS from NAPA and they have always carried good products in the past and I trust them. Until someone can show me evidence that these other products are superior, I'll keep using it. If I see some proof, I'll switch. Like Joe Friday, I want just the facts.

Makes a BIG difference! Much more diesel noice (knocking...) without diesel kleen. The engine likes it for sure so it can't be bad IMHO. Drove without it through Arizona heat and thought - damn where is that diesel noise coming from (run out of diesel kleen at that time). Cheap to buy at Wally World

BUDTX, I really couldn't say which if any additives are better or bad. There are lots of them out there. I read post for a long time on this site and the PSD site and the reason I went with stanidyne is it was the only one that nobody had bad things to say about it, other than price. I order by the case and get it for 1/2 the GM dealer price.:)

Recent posts in the Stanadyne thread disparaged Power Service/Diesel Kleen as unfit for anything other than pouring into the used oil bin. I want to use a proper additive, and am curious about that comment.

Does anyone have any empirical evidence or firsthand experience to support that Power Service/Diesel Kleen is harmful or at least ineffective?

Thanks,

Bud

Bear in mind this is my opinion based on personal experience, and word from others in the business. I do think that you will find that most fuel shops dislike Howes and Power Service though too. I consider them the "Fram" of the fuel additive business...


http://www.fppf.com/pdemos_flash.html

I bought my Duramax truck in Feb. and have run power service in it since the first tank. No problems at all. A friend who has a 6.0 powerstroke told me about it. I like it and it is inexpensive and easy to find.

I've been using power service since I got my truck. I have not had any problems. Of course, when I occasionally forget to add it to a full tank and run the tank its hard to see a difference. I have tried stanadyne and saw the same thing when I used it, not much difference.

That does not mean additives don't work. It just means you won't see dramatic differences from one to the other. If anyone tells you a fuel additive is going to make a big difference in how the truck performs or sounds they are probably making exaggerated claims.

My personal opinion is that the impact an additive that adds lubricity like power service or stanadyne is going to have will be hard to notice. It is a cumulative thing. I think its more likely that over the long term, not using an additive will have a negative effect on injector lifespan.

I think both probably work equally well and if there is a difference between the to it is not significant and not worth the price difference. Power service is cheaper and easier to get so that's what I use.

If someone could do a legitimate 'scientific' comparison like to one that was done a while ago with air filters and standayne proved to be significantly better than the rest I would switch. Until then I am perfectly happy to continue using power serice.

While I cannot speak to Diesel Kleen being harmful (which I doubt) or ineffective in all it is advertised to do I can say that I have first hand evidence that Diesel Kleen does not provide MPG improvements, at least in my Dmax.

When I first purchased my Dmax (almost one year ago) I started the 1st tank on Stanadyne and ran through the bottle (the big one treats like 240 gallons) had trouble finding it after that so I bought a bottle of the Redline Diesel additive. I immediately noticed my engine was noisier with the Redline, and after about 1 month of use I ordered more Stanadyne as I'd also noticed my MPG's had dropped solidly 1MPG. Then again about 2 months ago I ran out of Stanadyne, I just happened to be in Wally*world so I purchased the Diesel Kleen stuff. I ran that for about 2 months and while I didn't notice that my engine was noisier with the Diesel Kleen I did again notice my MPG's dropped. I have since purchased more Stanadyne and again my MPG's are up near 20.

I put on average 100 miles per day on my truck ( I know not a lot compared to others on this forum) which I feel is enough miles per month to allow me to validate whether my MPG's are being effected by fuel, driving habits or by the additive I'm running. For my money I'd prefer to not only protect my injection system with an additive authorized by GM but to also gain some MPG's from it. The fuel receipts I've kept over the last year are the proof for me (yeah I've kept an entire year's worth of fuel receipts, I just might be quad A material ):h ).

An awful lot of people frequently cite GM's recommendation to use Stanadyne as proof that it is the best.

I find it odd that GM recommends one and only one specific brand of fuel additive. I don't recall seeing them recommending use of specific brands of fuel, motor oil, trans fluid, gear lube, anti freeze etc. in the manual.

Sounds like GM is making some money on 'licensing'. I wouldn't doubt that they paid GM to be the 'recommended' fuel additive.

Actually, they don't recommend the additive itself - they simply say that both racor and stanadyne are good suppliers...

The truck has to run reliably and meet emissions standards for the length of the warranty on "available fuel". That's federal law. That's the reason why they say - "we don't say you need an additive" - even though, in most cases, you do...

I have studied up on the various additives and came to the following conclusions...

1. Any claims of performance or mileage gains are probably due to cleaning the injectors or stabilizing some nasty old fuel. If the injectors are already clean you won't see much. I found this nugget on the chevron website - the truck is already 97% efficient - so where is a 5-10% mileage gain going to come from?

2. The most important attribute in an additive for our trucks is lubricity. The lubricity additive is a compound that adheres to the metal and forms a boundary layer - protecting it from scoring and wear. The measure of lubricity that is useful to look at is HFRR - high frequency reciprocating rig. They rub two pieces of metal together and look at the "wear scar diameter" - the smaller the diameter, the better the performance. In this case, european studies and the european diesel fuel spec (EN590) have defined a 450 micron wear scar diameter to be the minimum level acceptable. U.S. standards are now rolling in that set minimum fuel lubricity at 520 micron wear scar diameter - so we need to add a little lubricity additive to ensure good life from the pump and injectors.

3. You need to be careful over-additizing. Adding too much cetane additive will de-stabilize the fuel (clog fuel filter and injectors). Adding too much lubricity additive will actually yield lower lubricity... (so more isn't always better).

The most important thing for life of fuel injection components is a lubricity additive. The fuel additive should show that it can take worst case U.S. fuel and take it to EN590 lubricity specs - this means taking fuel with a wear scar diameter of 600+ and taking it down below 450 with treatment. Stanadyne and Rotella are the only that I have seen that show published results meeting this criteria. Rotella DFA was discontinued - so that leaves stanadyne....

jeff

Excellent explanation Jeff. In regards to overuse, are you speaking of frequency of use as well as ratio? Obviously, if you double the dosage, so to speak, that's overuse. But also, I've heard Standyne only recommends use every other tank. I don't know that for sure because I've never read their bottle, but that's what I heard. Will effectiveness be reduced using in every tankful?

It sure would be nice to see some of the other manufacturers provide their lubricity specs. Sure would make deciding a lot easier.

Of course, if we had bio-diesel readily available, lubricity in our fuel would not be much of an issue...

I have run PS in my truck since purchasing it about 7000 miles ago (May, 2005). In spite of the general consensus I read on this site that it pretty much sucked, I bought it because it's easy to get and I figure running any additive at all is better than not -- especially for me, because I end up being places where it gets cold enough to gel fuel, even in the summer. 7000 miles is not really a lot of time to evaluate an additive, but I've noticed a couple things... First, it does quiet the motor down a little, but these things aren't loud by any means on straight #2, so I don't think this matters much. Second, I see absolutely no gain in performance unless I double-concentrate it, and even then it amounts to a whopping 1 MPG at 75-80 mph. As to whether it helps with keeping the fuel system clean -- what would be nice is if one of the vendors would be willing to pull the heads off a couple of trucks with similar mileage, one running PS and one running something else. It wouldn't be a real scientific comparison, but if everyone's right about PS being sub-par with the other additives, I bet it'd pay for itself in additive sales real quick.

Also, if you figure out the per-gallon costs of PS vs. Standadyne or FPPF or Primrose from the vendors, you'll find that cost-effectiveness doesn't differ much -- and of course it'd be much more expensive if you experience, as I did, that there's no real performance benefit with the PS unless you double the concentration. You just have to order the other stuff in advance so you don't run out, which can be a little inconvenient.

Excellent explanation Jeff. In regards to overuse, are you speaking of frequency of use as well as ratio? Obviously, if you double the dosage, so to speak, that's overuse. But also, I've heard Standyne only recommends use every other tank. I don't know that for sure because I've never read their bottle, but that's what I heard. Will effectiveness be reduced using in every tankful?

I use the additive in every tankful. The term "over-additizing" or "over-additization" refers to adding too much additive into a single tank of fuel.

Effectiveness is not reduced by using it every tank. Actually, a couple of tanks of poor lubricity fuel can send you to the shop with bad injectors. The fuel from a reputable supplier (for me, that means chevron) should be just fine. But, for me, it's insurance and peace of mind.

jeff

Are you Stanadyne users using the Performance Formula, Lubricity Formula, Summer or Winter100 Formulas? I found the Performance Formula for $4.40/bottle, is that a good price?

I've been using Diesel Kleen + Octane Boost for 6k miles. I used it every other or so fill-up and I noticed a difference in noise level (quieter & smoother) and performance. Could be my imagination but it does feel a bit more powerful especially when towing. Someone on this board a while back was researching the water breakdown and perf of multiple brands - I'll try to look for it. I will continue to use it until there is proof otherwise that it doesn't work or others outperform. It's reasonably proces and easy to find (Walmart)

Are you Stanadyne users using the Performance Formula, Lubricity Formula, Summer or Winter100 Formulas? I found the Performance Formula for $4.40/bottle, is that a good price?

I personally run the Performance Formula. I buy it by the case (6 1/2 gallon jugs) to get the best price from my local supplier. Is 4.40 for the 1 shot or the pint?

Are you Stanadyne users using the Performance Formula, Lubricity Formula, Summer or Winter100 Formulas? I found the Performance Formula for $4.40/bottle, is that a good price?

If you paying that for a pint let me know where you are getting it, that would be a great price.

Siphon,

The 'general consensus that power service sucks'??? I only see two threads in this forum and none in the fuel forum discussing additives. There may be some threads I've missed because I have not been on the lookout for them but two threads isn't a consensus that power service sucks. Those two threads have quite a few people that use it and like it as well as those that don't.

About a year ago when I bought my truck I was watching all the discussion regarding additives and asked about power service. I found that quite a lot of people used it and recommended it.

If there is evidence that power service does not work and there are other products that are significantly better and more effective I would look at them and seriously think about switching. I haven't seen that yet. What dmax lover posted is good info on Stanadyne but there is nothing to compare it to.

I used rotella for the first 70000 miles,changed to power service lost injectors at 91000 miles.Lost 6 injectors and the inlet lines were pitted.Dont know if the power service caused it,will never use it again. animal 4500

I doubt using power service for 20,000 miles caused the lost injectors. I have used it for 25,000 miles and have not had a problem. I think the more likely cause might be the 70,000 you used the rotella.

Like I said I DONT KNOW, noboby can prove any of this stuff works.I used over 8800 gallons of fuel last year,Im going to blame Flying J HOWS THAT. animal 4500 rvtransporter

Flying J sounds good to me...

Mark Im in truck stops all the time,Ive noticed very few truckers use treatment in the summer.Makes you think. animal 4500 rv transporter

Siphon,

The 'general consensus that power service sucks'??? I only see two threads in this forum and none in the fuel forum discussing additives. There may be some threads I've missed because I have not been on the lookout for them but two threads isn't a consensus that power service sucks. Those two threads have quite a few people that use it and like it as well as those that don't.



I dunno, maybe 'consensus' was a poor choice of words, especially with respect to fuel additives, but don't get all bent outta shape. I do think there is "consensus" that there are better additives out there, and I didn't just post based on threads from the past two days and my (limited, as I said) experience with the product. Are these the same discussions RE PS you read before you bought your truck?

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22141
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2351
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1583
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1205

I use it because it does the things I said it did: EASY TO FIND, quieter operation (negligible), anti-gelling, and some "performance" if I want to double the concentration. I'm not of the opinion that PS is going to cause irreparable harm to my fuel system, otherwise I wouldn't use it. Perhaps a more accurate way to say what I meant would have been: "PS sucks... as far as the manufactuer's claim on the bottle that the product when mixed at recommended concentration will, 1. 'Disperse water in fuel,' 2. 'Decrease fuel consumption -- fuel savings exceed cost of additive,' 3. 'Boost power -- reduces need for downshifting,' 4. Clean dirty injectors (which I have no doubt it does, but...) -- exceeds engine manufacturer's specifications :wtf: , etc., etc." Sure, there are plenty of guys who reply that they use PS and like it, or have used PS in Granpappy Smith's tractor for 130 years and never had a problem, or whatever. But I don't care about Granpappy's tractor, and the posts I've read from DMAX owners usually say, "it's fine," but don't leave the impression that the product gives you many of the benefits it's claiming.

I agree there's not much hard evidence out there. To me, if a person were real concerned about this, I'd have to go with a company that produced some test results vs. a company that has not. The other thing I'd consider is why few (if any?) of the supporting vendors carry PS. I can't speak for them, so maybe some will chime in.

Are you Stanadyne users using the Performance Formula, Lubricity Formula, Summer or Winter100 Formulas? I found the Performance Formula for $4.40/bottle, is that a good price?

In the summer, I run lubricity formula. It costs less than performance formula per bottle and treats twice as much fuel per pint. Lubricity formula will stabilize the fuel, clean the injectors and provide lubrication.

For example, one one vendor's site a case of performance formula is $64 whereas a case of lubricity formula is $53. The lubricity formula pint treats 120 gallons and the performance formula treats 60 gallons...

The lubricity formula is very concentrated, so you do not need to overtreat to get to the magic number for lubricity (450 micron wsd hfrr).

In warmer temps - you could run lubricity formula year round and forego the performance formula - which provides protection against gelling and cetane improvement. If you buy your fuel from a place like chevron - you don't need cetane improver...

- jeff

I know that on a PSD forum, they have had the same questions and issues that everyone seems to have here: "Rotella VS Delo, Fram VS Everyone else, AFE VS ETC. ETC. " Same with the diesel additives. I CAN state this for a fact: I never used a single fuel additive the entire time I had my highly modded 99.5 PSD. And traded it in to the Chevy dealer with 288,700 miles. Just plain ole #2 diesel and plain ole rotella oil. Motor was perfect and ran very well. Oh yeah, I did have to replace the starter.


I feel that I will keep the same maintenence that I did on the old PSD for my new Duramax. Just my opinion

I have been in charge of all kinds of diesel engines over my career. From one lung generators on arrow boards to locomotives. Yanmars to Alcos & everything in between. Over the road, stationary, and earthmovers. Hundreds of thousands of gallons of diesel fuel.
If I had found need to treat all of that fuel for all of those engines, the cost would have been astronomical. :eek:
The only time that we experienced injector failure was due to water in the fuel. Usually traced to fueling up during or shortly after a transport was dumped into the tank being pumped out of. :badidea:
The time for an additive, in my experience has been to combat fuel gelling. Say you get a load of #2 "summer blend" in Southern Missouri and drive to N. Dakota. Temp in Missouri may be 75+ degrees. It may be 15 degrees where you stop for the night. In the AM you will probably wish that you had added an anti-gel additive.
In situations such as this, I have found that Power Service is an exceptional product. I have seen service trucks pull fuel filters off of engines that stalled on the road from gelled fuel. They pour Power Service into the filters and more into the tank. Wait about 15 minutes and the truck starts right up. Saves a tow bill! :exactly:
The practice of treating each and every gallon of fuel that goes into your truck is just increasing your cost per mile. :confused: It's your money! If you feel better putting an additive in, by all means do it! I doubt that you will find very many fleet operators that treat all their fuel.

Britt

Used it in my 03 for over 80000 now and in my 04.5 for 32000, no problems, seems to run smoother with it. Also my brother-in-law runs it in his KW, puts about 250,000 a year on it and has run it for 10 years or so in all of his road trucks. Proof is in the pudding.

I've used PS since I got my truck in '99. I since have 90 K miles on my "disaster" of a DS4 IP and get 1+ more mpg when I use it then when I don't (basically the stuff is free). Other brands better? - maybe; PS bad - not in my experience/opinion.

I'm a capitalist and believe in the power of markets; if stanadyne or FPPF were so much better, they would create a market and be available everywhere like PS is. I won't do mail order for consumables like fuel treatment, oil and filters as I "occasionally" find myself away from the garage for more than a day or two.....just my .000005 lira

I worked with deisel equipment for over 30 years and Power Service fuel supplements were the only ones that we would ever use in extreme cold conditions. Power Sevice is the only additive that would cut through the ice in a fuel system that was already iced up. Believe me, we tried all the others over the years and although some of them were good in treating fuel, none of them would clear out a system that was already geled up. Made a believer out of me and I have used the additive in my Duramax since I bought it.

"Granpappy's tractor" :lol:

Some waist there money on other frivolous things so the extra peace of mind.....

The vendors here probably can't compete with Wally World's prices so there is no need for them to carry it. Maybe one will chime in and let us know.

My 03 ford 6.0 psd also only recommended only stanadyne. But i never could find it around here or at the deisel truck stops around here so only tryed deisel kleen could not tell a diff.

ken

I'm probaly going overboard on the fuel additives ,

I'm probaly going overboard on the fuel additives , but I use a mixture of FPPF Total Power, Lubricite and Cetane. Ten ounces of each into an old Penzoilk oil bottle with measuring window on side of the pastic bottle. Then I put ten ounces of mixture in with every 30 gal gal tank refill. Most will say thats to expensive, but so is engine work. Hopefully that practice plus my NICKTANE fuerl filter will keep me out of the shop longer. This mixture does seem to make the truck run much better. Was using SCHEAFFERS SOYSHIELD fuel additive but lost my local supplier and don't want to order in unless my local FPPF source dries up to.

I worked with deisel equipment for over 30 years and Power Service fuel supplements were the only ones that we would ever use in extreme cold conditions. Power Sevice is the only additive that would cut through the ice in a fuel system that was already iced up. Believe me, we tried all the others over the years and although some of them were good in treating fuel, none of them would clear out a system that was already geled up. Made a believer out of me and I have used the additive in my Duramax since I bought it.

Now THAT is alcohol. Running a good additive that lowers CFPP will prevent you from needing to run a harsh additive like this...

This debate like mentioned earlier is just like the oil debate. I'll stick with what I know works and can SEE the results...

Now THAT is alcohol. Running a good additive that lowers CFPP will prevent you from needing to run a harsh additive like this...

This debate like mentioned earlier is just like the oil debate. I'll stick with what I know works and can SEE the results...


Kennedy,
Are you saying that Power Service contains alcohol? I don't have a bottle handy to check. I know that alcohol will thaw ice, but will it dissolve fuel wax on a cold gelled fuel system? Power Service seems to excell at that.

I have never had any ill effects from Power Service fuel conditioner.

Now Power Service Injector cleaner in a black bottle, THAT is a different story! I think that their injector cleaner is Censored ! The black bottle is an appropriate color choice for that product!

Take Care,

Britt