Liquid hydrogen appears to be a good candidate for turbo diesel applications.
Sure, the combustion as a fuel would be nice, but the real benefit would
be cooling the intake.

Everybody thinks water has the highest specific heat. In fact hydrogen
has (IIRC) 6x the specific heat of water. Plus as a liquid it is really cold,
plus it needs to go through a phase change.

Direct liquid injection after the turbo would be very interesting. Has anybody tested it?

How much does it cost, and does one have to have a license of some sort to buy it?

Well, it cannot be too expensive. After all it is made from water.
You will need a cryo bulk tank to move it around, but for racing
applications a styrofoam tub would be a good bet. As far as I
know liquid gases do not require a license -- yet.

How much does it cost, and does one have to have a license of some sort to buy it?

I used liquid hydrogen when I worked in a clean lab. Its fun stuff to play with although kinda dangerous. Talk about frost bite.. Actually the biggest problem we had was handling the stuff. Normal plastic gets extremely brittle when frozen with it. We used to take rubber gloves and shatter them when they were frozen. You can imagine what it could do to skin.

You're right about the cooling capacity of h2. That's why all large power plants use it to cool the generator as opposed to being open to the air. The generator housing is sealed and h2 is circulated as a gas inside, giving off the heat to cooling water in a heat exchanger. And we have a supply of h2 in pressure cylinders like you see O2, N2, or acetyline(sp?) in. We use ours right our of a ladge cylinder bank; the smaller cylinders are for periods where we can't use the large cylinder bank. So you can get it in a smaller size, but I'm not sure how much smaller. As for $? I haven't a clue. Do some internet research and keep us informed. We'd all like to hear.

BB

I smell a Darwin Awards candidate among us!

Frank are you trying to get someone killed?

Next time I see an atomic mushroom cloud on top of a race track I'll know someone tried it... :ro)

Don't try this at home.

The main issue with hydrogen is that it has a flammability range between 2 and 98 percent (roughly) and it takes the energy of a fly fart to set it off.

In a closed loop system, it's fine, but in the real world, even one little leak can start a violent explosion. We used to use it at work and the safety precautions were rather extreme....grounded and explosion-proof everything, all kinds of anti-static devices. Instead of windows, they put in blow-out panels so the explosion wouldn't send building pieces flying.

NOT recommended.

Don't try this at home.

The main issue with hydrogen is that it has a flammability range between 2 and 98 percent (roughly) and it takes the energy of a fly fart to set it off.

In a closed loop system, it's fine, but in the real world, even one little leak can start a violent explosion. We used to use it at work and the safety precautions were rather extreme....grounded and explosion-proof everything, all kinds of anti-static devices. Instead of windows, they put in blow-out panels so the explosion wouldn't send building pieces flying.

NOT recommended.

:blahblah: what did you do, stay at a holiday inn express last night?? ):h
I think we can get LabRat to try this..

:blahblah: what did you do, stay at a holiday inn express last night?? ):h
I think we can get LabRat to try this..

:rolleyes: No, I just pay attention to bombs around me ;)

Well, hey, if you can safely handle liquid H2, you could surely handle some liquid O2, and voila....fastest Dmax ever.....to..... the moon ):h

I sign Ratlover up.

:rolleyes: No, I just pay attention to bombs around me ;)

Well, hey, if you can safely handle liquid H2, you could surely handle some liquid O2, and voila....fastest Dmax ever.....to..... the moon ):h

I sign Ratlover up.


yeah yeah..that would kick ass! ):h

your nuts...period

:rolleyes: No, I just pay attention to bombs around me ;)

Well, hey, if you can safely handle liquid H2, you could surely handle some liquid O2, and voila....fastest Dmax ever.....to..... the moon ):h

I sign Ratlover up.

At least you'd be able to drive around the lunar surface in style....

What was the name of that blimp again???

Hamburg?

Just what I want......my truck in a ball of flames while someone stands by taping yelling "oh the humanity" I'll pass :p:

Hindenburg ;)

http://www.afn.org/~afn42211/genealog/sterner/hindenburg/hindnbg3.gif

Hindenburg ;)

http://www.afn.org/~afn42211/genealog/sterner/hindenburg/hindnbg3.gif

not if you are in it!):h

I might get bored in a minute and make a present for Mr. Labrat

At least when the Dmax blew up it wouldn't release any greenhouse gases! However, the seats and other burnable items might make up for it.

ok I'm bored now... standby for some "flaming" :weld:

:joke:

:D

The thought of my truck poluting the air with the seats burning bothers you but me getting turned into a crispy critter isnt high on your list of concerns? Thanks bud :rolleyes: :lol:

I'm innocent on this one. I was going to use your avatar as my starting point for the flamer pic but I thought that might be a little too mean. ;)


:D

The thought of my truck poluting the air with the seats burning bothers you but me getting turned into a crispy critter isnt high on your list of concerns? Thanks bud :rolleyes: :lol:

No biggy:) Although using the words flamer and describing me and/or my truck are lible to get you into some trouble:mad: :rules:

:joke:

:D I was intending for it to be a suspensing joke.

I failed. But if anyone wants me to paint flames on their truck I will. $5...
Lets see I'll need about 1000 orders to buy the TTS and tranny. So don't be bashful. Sign up today!

Check is in the mail :D

999 more to go

Another big problem with hydrogen is that it turns to a gas at like -400 degrees, so you would have to have one hellacious cooler to keep it in liquid form.

No biggy:) Although using the words flamer and describing me and/or my truck are lible to get you into some trouble:mad: :rules:

:joke:

Do what ever u want RRE, we'll take care of Phil ):h

):h ):h ):h ):h ):h

Here, Rat, Rat, Rat!!!!!

FrankEP, I guess it depends on what you want to do with it.
I've seen pictures of what hydrogen gas can do, and myself have done some high school chemisty experiments with hydrogen. Not something you want to play with. :offtopic: Sorry..

I have seen some ricer guys doing things like spraying liquid CO2 on their intercoolers to get a denser charge and more power. Can even do it at the track since CO2 isn't flamable, heck it is the same stuff they use in some fire extinguishers.

Frank EP, here's a better answer, just not a complete answer. You want liquid hydrogen? Look in in you medicine cabinet. It's there in a really diluted form. 3 to 5%. H202. Hydrogen Peroxide. But! I know I've seen N202 inj'n kits awhile back, but do you think I could find something now? I'm probably not looking hard enough. About the best info I've found was a thread over at TurboBuick.com. The kits I remember were designed for snowmobile use and I remember they were derived from systems in use on OTR tractors found in Canada(?).

At first blush, the H2 should provide a fuel boost and/or cooling effect. Hoever, the extra 02 could increase the exhaust temps. So it looks like the effects would cancel each other out. These systems were tried, and I believe if they had any real merit, why don't we see/ hear more about them? Like I said, maybe I'm missing something here. I'm still looking...

CWB.

Frank EP, here's a better answer, just not a complete answer. You want liquid hydrogen? Look in in you medicine cabinet. It's there in a really diluted form. 3 to 5%. H202. Hydrogen Peroxide. But! I know I've seen N202 inj'n kits awhile back, but do you think I could find something now? I'm probably not looking hard enough. About the best info I've found was a thread over at TurboBuick.com. The kits I remember were designed for snowmobile use and I remember they were derived from systems in use on OTR tractors found in Canada(?).

At first blush, the H2 should provide a fuel boost and/or cooling effect. Hoever, the extra 02 could increase the exhaust temps. So it looks like the effects would cancel each other out. These systems were tried, and I believe if they had any real merit, why don't we see/ hear more about them? Like I said, maybe I'm missing something here. I'm still looking...

CWB.

Wouldn't extra O act like more boost and lower egt's??

I think it started out as liquid hydrogen in its state is -400 degrees F or somewhere in that range. But H2O2 I don't think will work better than water/meth since water is the cooling effect and meth adds more fuel.

Now that I think about it H2O2 wouldn't work for another reason, its not a gas. :)

That was the original direction of the thread.

What about something like this:

http://www.burnh2o.com/

The site is a little lacking, but under the FAQ section is a little more meat about the process. There was a good article in the local paper, but I can't find it online :mad:

In general, would hydrogen do anything to help EGTs?

That looks very interesting. I wonder how big that thing is and how much they will charge.

If memory serves from the article, I think the smaller version (hydrogen 1000) runs about $1500.00 and holds a gallon of distilled water. Not sure the cost on the hydrogen 2000, but I believe it holds about 3 gallons.

You are correct on the sizes. Its in the FAQ. They are saying 25% fuel milage gains. I'm skeptical. So if someone wants to try one and let me know how well it works feel free to do so.

RRE, let's think outside the box a little. I know what Frank EP was asking and I'm not trying to cast a pall over the idea as others have. We should keep an open mind as ideas are expressed. I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. I'm not scolding anyone here. Everyone has valid points, at least in their own minds, otherwise we wouldn't have spoke up.

As far as using hydrogen peroxide goes, I tend to believe as RRE states, that it wouldn't be much better than water/meth. The water does have a cooling effect as does the methynol as it changes state before becoming the added BTU content. It's the change from liquid to a gas that cools the incoming charge, releasing the BTU value of methynol. Water alone seems to account for only about a third of the net temperature drop. I believe hydrogen peroxide would only be good for a temp drop somewhere between the value of w/m and water only. Not to mention, harming your clothing and painted surfaces on your truck were you to spill it.

The HydroGen concept is interesting. I work in water treatment in a large power plant and as such we are in a position to aquire and use state of the art water purification processes. We currently use this eletroylsis process to produce a weak bleach for use in cooling water instead of chlorine gas to control algea. Much safer although it costs a little more to prduce. The principle byproduct of this process is hydrogen. It is vented to atmosphere. We are passing a high current charge through a brine(salt) solution instead of an electrolyte(acid) solution. So I can see that this process should work as long as high quality distilled water is used. Plate replacement may become an issue at some point, especially if tap water were to be used, even sofened tap water. And I'm surprised by how little water the process consumes. This may be the nature of RRE's skeptisism, especially in light of the high water/methynol consumption needed to do essentially the same thing.

All said, the market will ultimately dictate the process we'll use. Value vs Performance, offset by Conveinence (ease of use).


CWB

Just a tidbit, gettin H2 out of H2O2 requires TIME and a CATALYST, lots of it. Otherwise it is just another solvent with latent heat of vaporization inferior to water.

CWB you are exactly right about my skeptisism. I hope it is a viable alternative but it sure is an expensive experiement.

So how does hydrogen compare to the other drugs (propane, nitrous, water/meth)?

Is it more like water/meth and I believe nitrous in that it provides some cooling benefit while helping the diesel burn?

Would you have the same issues with hydrogen as you do with propane and tunes with too much advanced timing? :badidea: It seems like some of the other drugs are much more forgiving in this area.

TIA

you can run 100% NO2, or O2 for that matter.. just need a really big tank!!:eek: Propane and H2 are fuels. exceed the LEL (Lower Explosive Limit) and you have.. well explosions (detonation).. Water / meth is weird.. The Meth should fall under the fuel catagory, and to much water may prevent the fuel from igniting.. as in absorbing to much heat from the compression cycle so the fuel won't burn..
I would like to see a propane system that injects the fuel after the cac, and at a fairly high pressure, so we get the power of propane, and some cooling of its decompression post cac. that way the cac does its job, and the propane takes maybe 50 to 100 degrees off the intake manifold air temps.