Looks like Ram is going forward with the 1/2 ton diesel. Maybe this will make GM put the 4.5 back in assembly line. Read below.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/07/chrysler-planning-ram-1500-diesel-and-hybrid-models/

I would like too see Dodge put a diesel in a 1/2 ton...and watch them sell like pancakes, I bet then GM will get off their a$$es and put the 4.5 dmax in their 1/2 tons;)

exaclty. GM are you listening???

exaclty. GM are you listening???

I'll answer on behalf of GM...

NO


But I'll casually run over to the nearest wreck that totals a Ram that has one of those 5.0 diesels in it, just so I can make sure that I snag the engine....

That's the sound of the alarm going off, GM. Time to wake up.

I think there is going be be a very very limited market for a 1/2 ton diesel truck.

To me, most of the new 1/2ton buyers today are buying them for cars more than trucks. The family hauler with a small boat and groceries, to which a 5.3L or even the smaller engines do fine. A 1/2ton isn't going to be able to compete with a 3/4 or 1ton it never will. The extra power of the diesel just plain isn't needed because the rest of the truck just isn't built to tow & haul. Throw an extra couple thousand at the price tag for the diesel truck and the people that would be looking at it will just spring for the 3/4ton option.

They might not be doing this only for power, but for fuel economy.

They might not be doing this only for power, but for fuel economy.

:ditto:

They might not be doing this only for power, but for fuel economy.
With all the extra emission stuff and the smaller diesel engine do you really think the economy will be better? I consistently got 19-20mpg with my old 1/2ton 5.3L.

Not saying they shouldn't do it, I just don't think the market is going to be as large as some of the folks here are making it out to be.

And really, Who wants to drive around a bigass 3/4 ton if they've never driven one, When you could get great fuel mileage, better towing, and better overall performance than a gasser. And the price would be relatively down since its still a half ton, yet having a diesel :/

The way GM is going, the next, greatest, thing from GM will be a plug in truck. Power Wheels edition.

Any off you guys remember the Chevy Chevette back in the early 80's it had a 4 cylinder diesel......it was not the fastest car buy all means but it got like 44+ mpg to the gallon...I saw that article in the diesel power magazine a while back

Now just think if the big 3 were to put 4 or 6 cylinder turbo diesel's in cars and in P/U with 44+mpg......but it's not going to happen

As late as October of this year, GM's Vice-chairman Tom Stephens made it known that GM is going to be offering diesel powered cars in the US, but it probably won't be for a few more years or so. The 4.5L will see the light of day, it's just a matter of when. I believe it was reported it got 20-25% better mpg's than the current gas powered Silverado. I think that would be reason enough in many people's eye that would like a smooth driving 26-28mpg highway truck, with power if needed for towing. Considering 1/2 Tons are now up and over the 10,000lb mark of towing ability, that's reason enough to justify pulling that 10K lbs with better comfort, ride, mpg's, etc. My my observation, but many 3/4 ton diesel buyers never tow more than 10K lbs ever, but like the power of the diesel. That's why this 4.5L will sell easily in today's truck market, considering truck sells have gone up for GM and is looking better and better. Even more important, CAFE standards going up, GM can only sell so many Cruze's, Sonic's (new name replacing Aveo) Malibu's, etc. to offset the gas guzzling Tahoe's, Yukon's, Silverado's, Sierra's, Escalade's, etc. that get nowhere near what the average needs to be. Chris

Once again Chris you've hit the nail on the head

And really, Who wants to drive around a bigass 3/4 ton if they've never driven one, When you could get great fuel mileage, better towing, and better overall performance than a gasser. And the price would be relatively down since its still a half ton, yet having a diesel :/
Ummm... last I checked the 1/2 ton was the exact same dimensions as the 3/4ton, just a little lower. Can't prove the mileage, towing, and performance without numbers, you are probably right, but the 5.3L is a good engine and if you plan on towing, get a larger than 1/2 ton truck. Throw the tall gears needed for the towing and diesel and you won't have a significant increase in mileage at all (if any).
Any off you guys remember the Chevy Chevette back in the early 80's it had a 4 cylinder diesel......it was not the fastest car buy all means but it got like 44+ mpg to the gallon...I saw that article in the diesel power magazine a while back

Now just think if the big 3 were to put 4 or 6 cylinder turbo diesel's in cars and in P/U with 44+mpg......but it's not going to happen
Right, and the Europeans still sell new cars just like that with similar or better mileage. Can't get them in the USA because of emission requirements.
... Considering 1/2 Tons are now up and over the 10,000lb mark of towing ability, that's reason enough to justify pulling that 10K lbs with better comfort, ride, mpg's, etc. My my observation, but many 3/4 ton diesel buyers never tow more than 10K lbs ever, but like the power of the diesel. That's why this 4.5L will sell easily in today's truck market, considering truck sells have gone up for GM and is looking better and better...Eh, see this is where I disagree. My old 1/2ton was rated close to the same thing. (~9200lbs, IIRC) and it towed the 8k pounds behind me pretty good... until I got the 3/4 ton. I don't know what I was thinking. The suspension is 100% better, the sway on the highway, the bounce over bumps, stopping etc all much better with the 3/4ton with the exact same load. Sure the 1/2ton is rated for it, doesn't mean you should be doing it regularly. If you plan on towing something more than 2.5 tons regularly, get a bigger truck.
Just throwing more power at a 1/2 ton isn't going to change the fact it has smaller brakes, a lighter suspension, less rated tires, etc.

[ Even more important, CAFE standards going up, GM can only sell so many Cruze's, Sonic's (new name replacing Aveo) Malibu's, etc. to offset the gas guzzling Tahoe's, Yukon's, Silverado's, Sierra's, Escalade's, etc. that get nowhere near what the average needs to be. Chris[/quote]

This statement is false. Cars and Trucks have separate CAFE numbers. GM is not working on 4.5 and the earilest they could put it in is 2015.

I was always told that diesel didn't count against CAFE, and that's why GM was originally looking at using the 4.5L in the half ton. besides it would be a great engine for the Suburban and Yukon XL. the Tahoe's and other full frame suv's do well as far as i know on the D.O.D 5.3's.

They would be the new hot rods. Make the same power numbers we make and put it in a half ton.

This is sooooo awesome!

Well if they come out, See ya LMM to the half ton. If i need to haul heavy i have 386 Pete.

Eh, see this is where I disagree. My old 1/2ton was rated close to the same thing. (~9200lbs, IIRC) and it towed the 8k pounds behind me pretty good... until I got the 3/4 ton. I don't know what I was thinking. The suspension is 100% better, the sway on the highway, the bounce over bumps, stopping etc all much better with the 3/4ton with the exact same load. Sure the 1/2ton is rated for it, doesn't mean you should be doing it regularly. If you plan on towing something more than 2.5 tons regularly, get a bigger truck.
Just throwing more power at a 1/2 ton isn't going to change the fact it has smaller brakes, a lighter suspension, less rated tires, etc.

GM is not just dropping the 4.5L behind the 1/2 ton "standard" tranny and rear end. The frame is already beefed up to tow over 10K lbs, the tranny, the 6 speed 6L90E is rated at the exact numbers the 4.5L was released at, the rear end is the 14 bolt like the 3/4 Tons have. It will have "beefed" up components. Like the 1500HD or 2500LD's, 2500HD suspension parts and components, but not a full on HD truck. Best of both worlds. I do stand corrected on the CAFE requirements, in 2016 light trucks will need to average 26mpg for the manufacturer and 42mpg for the cars. So, GM will need to have trucks capable of averaging out 26mpg. Not sure how close they are, but considering the light duty truck markets are made up of Silverado's and Sierra's, not Colorado's and Canyon's, (not sure how Tahoe's, etc vs. Traverse's, etc are figured in?) Seems a diesel reportedly able to get close to 30mpg highway is a good start to get these numbers up. MTUalum probably has some info most of us don't have access to, but GM completely finished development of this engine. Nothing left to do to it, just start making parts and put together, install in the vehicles. Do any of us really know what GM is thinking, NEW GM, not the one we've been used to for decades? NO, but I sure am hoping for a 4.5L to find it's way into a NEW GM full size SUV within the next 4-5 years. My wife's Escalade ESV will probably have around 200K miles by then and need replacement. Chris

I think there is going be be a very very limited market for a 1/2 ton diesel truck.

To me, most of the new 1/2ton buyers today are buying them for cars more than trucks. The family hauler with a small boat and groceries, to which a 5.3L or even the smaller engines do fine. A 1/2ton isn't going to be able to compete with a 3/4 or 1ton it never will. The extra power of the diesel just plain isn't needed because the rest of the truck just isn't built to tow & haul. Throw an extra couple thousand at the price tag for the diesel truck and the people that would be looking at it will just spring for the 3/4ton option.

Thank you. Im glad someone else out there actually has a reality check.

Guys, if you want a half ton truck that gets good fuel economy, buy a damn silverado hybrid. Because it will probably get similar fuel econ to the mythical 4.5 dmax silverado, and it will cost 7 grand LESS.

There is no market for a half ton diesel. There, I said it. Just becuase you guys are all googly eyed over it doesnt mean the other 98% of the prospective market is. Step outside of your "zomg anything diesel ruleeezzzz" views FOR ONCE and look at it from the real world point of view.

Dodge cant even sell cheap half ton pickup trucks to begin with. WTF makes you guys think they are gonna be able to sell one that costs 7 grand more than a gas one?????? :rolleyes:

My dad (62 years old) drives a 5.3L 1500 suburban. It gets terrible gas mileage unloaded, and pulling a trailer with three harleys the mileage is abysmal (single digits). Not to mention the power when driving up in the mountains is next to zero. He wants a duramax engine really bad, but he HATES the 2500hd trucks. The 2500s are way too big for him and what he hauls, they ride terrible rough when unloaded, and they cost $60k for a new one.
He is a PERFECT candidate for a diesel 1/2 ton suburban, and he would happily pay $40-$50k for one if he could.
The advantages of a turbo-diesel engine over a gasser dont even need to be discussed.
I think there is a very good market for turbo-diesels in the 1500 series trucks. Not everybody likes driving around a 2500HD as their daily driver....

My dad (62 years old) drives a 5.3L 1500 suburban. It gets terrible gas mileage unloaded, and pulling a trailer with three harleys the mileage is abysmal (single digits). Not to mention the power when driving up in the mountains is next to zero. He wants a duramax engine really bad, but he HATES the 2500hd trucks. The 2500s are way too big for him and what he hauls, they ride terrible rough when unloaded, and they cost $60k for a new one.
He is a PERFECT candidate for a diesel 1/2 ton suburban, and he would happily pay $40-$50k for one if he could.
The advantages of a turbo-diesel engine over a gasser dont even need to be discussed.
I think there is a very good market for turbo-diesels in the 1500 series trucks. Not everybody likes driving around a 2500HD as their daily driver....

Umm reality check, the half ton GASSER suburbans are already above 50k. What makes you think the diesel is going to be cheaper than the gas!!!

Hate you break it to you, but your dad is in the minority. Theres probably 5% of prospective suburban buyers that actually need a diesel engine. 5% isnt anywhere near enough for GM to want to put the 4.5 Suburban into production and have it be cost effective.

Hate you break it to you, but your dad is in the minority. Theres probably 5% of prospective suburban buyers that actually need a diesel engine. 5% isnt anywhere near enough for GM to want to put the 4.5 Suburban into production and have it be cost effective.

Well maybe where you live this is true. But where I live, I could sell these trucks like hotcakes. Also up in the mountains they would be very popular. Ever try to drive a gasser with any load up in the Rockies?? NO power, and horrible mileage.
And $50k for a new gasser suburban is rediculous! You can buy a 2500hd duramax for that kind of money if you actually try and negotiate. But you are correct; I did just look at the MSRPs and puke in my mouth a little.
I guess this argument will really only be settled when the manufacturers bring it to market!

Well maybe where you live this is true. But where I live, I could sell these trucks like hotcakes. Also up in the mountains they would be very popular. Ever try to drive a gasser with any load up in the Rockies?? NO power, and horrible mileage.
And $50k for a new gasser suburban is rediculous! You can buy a 2500hd duramax for that kind of money if you actually try and negotiate. But you are correct; I did just look at the MSRPs and puke in my mouth a little.
I guess this argument will really only be settled when the manufacturers bring it to market!

IF they bring them to market. GM is in this to make money. If they thought the 4.5 suburban would have been profitable, then they would have already brought it to market.

I wish there was some way to make you guys understand how realistic im being.

If they released the duramax suburban tomorrow (with its 60k++ price tag that it WILL have), I would be very surprised if they even sold 1000 of them in the next year.

You guys think its so simple "oh wtf GM just throw it in there and thats it". NO. You have to certify it, you have to CRASH TEST IT, you have to do FUEL ECON TESTING on it, you have to do DURABILITY testing on it, you have to to STABILITY CONTROL CALIBRATING/TESTING on it, you have to do retooling for PACKAGING/INTEGRATING, you have to secure suppliers for application specific parts, etc...

All these things that NO ONE THINKS ABOUT costs GM millions of dollars. Millions of dollars that they wont get back in terms of sales (because they wont sell many of them).

All to make 500 people per year happy? HA! I dont think so.

Ive seen probably 5 GMT-900 new body style 2500 suburbans on the road. In driving all around new england, driving from CT to Wisconsin, to Maine, to florida, to michigan, to ohio to maryland to... FIVE OF THEM!!! If only 3 people opted to buy a new suburban with the 3/4 ton package, there has got to be even less that would opt for the diesel package.

I mean really, even when they DID have a diesel suburban back in the 90's, ive only seen a small handful of those...and back then, people actually bought SUV's because they needed to tow!

Here are the reasons why the 4.5 is not happening in the near future.

1. Even though the 4.5L was "done", the program was cancelled and there are no suppliers on contract to make parts. Since this program was cancelled several years ago, I would be surprised if all the suppliers are still in business. Suppliers typically get the short end of the stick on cancelled programs so new negotiations take a while.

2. Even though the engine maybe done, there are a lot of platform parts like inductions, exhausts, driveshafts, powetrain cooling, HVAC, etc engineering that would need to be complete. For example, if you offer the 4.5 in every wheelbase and 2wd/4wd combination think how many driveshafts and exhausts there are to design and tune.

3. Pretty known fact that next gen LD truck is 2014. It is too late to add to GMT900 because all the engineers are working on the next gen truck. Most engineers are working on future programs two to four years ahead of now.

4. How many extra sales is this going to generate? GM is not making money if 6.6 guys are switching to 4.5s. You have to look how many conquest sales this will add and how many people will leave the GM brand because of no 4.5.

5. The government is providing huge amounts of money for R and D in batteries, hybrids, fuel cells to auto companies. R and D is focused on hybrids and fuel cells due to the government grants.

6. Just adding a diesel to LD would not have the truck meet the EPA regulations. You would need to add some type of hybrid or stop/start technology to get the city numbers up.

7. Price difference between 4.5 and 6.6. If it is only a few thousand, many people will go to the 6.6.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

if GM was in it to make money, they wouldn't have needed Barry to step in.

Electrical and battery technology is supposed to get us away from using dirty energy. where does the electricity come from? Coal. Can the big expensive batteries be recycled? No

Im surprised i havent seen a step up from algae oil/diesel. Burns cleaner than petrol, and the diesel engines of today don't need to be reconfigured too much to run optimally on algae oil.

eh, what do I know?

Off topic but agreed that battery technology is a joke for trucks and people who travel outside the city.
Simply put, no electric battery will ever be able to contain as much energy as a tank of diesel in regards to physical size or weight. Period. Yeah Chemistry is such a PITA sometimes.
The next step up from diesel is uranium. Just ask the Navy. =]

Totally off topic, I work in the energy industry and it pains me to see so much capital wasted on these "green" PR stunts. About the only "good" battery development I have seen are the water-tower type battery facilities the chinese are developing to buffer their powerplants. Basically the powerplant runs at the optimum heat rate 24/7, and the battery towers discharge into the grid during peak usage and then are able to recharge during off-peak. These are battery stations the size of powerplants, FYI

IF they bring them to market. GM is in this to make money. If they thought the 4.5 suburban would have been profitable, then they would have already brought it to market.

I wish there was some way to make you guys understand how realistic im being.

If they released the duramax suburban tomorrow (with its 60k++ price tag that it WILL have), I would be very surprised if they even sold 1000 of them in the next year.

You guys think its so simple "oh wtf GM just throw it in there and thats it". NO. You have to certify it, you have to CRASH TEST IT, you have to do FUEL ECON TESTING on it, you have to do DURABILITY testing on it, you have to to STABILITY CONTROL CALIBRATING/TESTING on it, you have to do retooling for PACKAGING/INTEGRATING, you have to secure suppliers for application specific parts, etc...

All these things that NO ONE THINKS ABOUT costs GM millions of dollars. Millions of dollars that they wont get back in terms of sales (because they wont sell many of them).

All to make 500 people per year happy? HA! I dont think so.

Ive seen probably 5 GMT-900 new body style 2500 suburbans on the road. In driving all around new england, driving from CT to Wisconsin, to Maine, to florida, to michigan, to ohio to maryland to... FIVE OF THEM!!! If only 3 people opted to buy a new suburban with the 3/4 ton package, there has got to be even less that would opt for the diesel package.

I mean really, even when they DID have a diesel suburban back in the 90's, ive only seen a small handful of those...and back then, people actually bought SUV's because they needed to tow!

idk about you, but come up to Sioux Falls SD. there's at LEAST 14 here. one already has a Duramax swapped into it.

It won't be long and the half ton diesel fans will finally be getting what they've wanted. GM management has been recently quoted that the 4.5L was done and ready for production. Diesel pickup sales haven't been stellar of late. A half ton diesel pickup could be a nice catalyst.

I'd like to know what a 1/2 ton 4.5 single cab would weigh? I really could give a crap about anything other than I'd love to hot rod one of them. New design would be a snap to compound at least according to Nathan. I have a 1/2 ton GMC CC 6.0 MAX that is my DD. I tow a 25 ft travel trailer with it and it does fine, gas economy isnt worth a crap towing or just driving, only gets about 16mpg, 18 if you baby it on the highway at 65 and downshift if you go over a mouse turd. The prices on any of these new vehicles are totally ridicules.:eek:

Just a quick point I want to toss in there...?

Does anyone else remember that GM offered the 6.2L diesel in half tons right thru the 80's? They sold a TON of them because they had the same (crappy lol) power of the base 305 V8, but almost twice the fuel economy.

There are still a lot of those trucks around because people just won't let go of them. Most are pretty rusty around here from road salt, hey, can't shoot em for that they are well over 20 years old in the snow belt...

Technology has advanced a long, long way from the old 6.2 N/A engine, yet it could produce 25ish mpg in a half ton pickup back then. No reason the new 4.5 couldn't have twice the power AND economy today.

If they sold well before, maybe they will again.

Does anyone else remember that GM offered the 6.2L diesel in half tons right thru the 80's?

My dad (see earlier post) was one of the "lucky" new owners of a diesel suburban when they first came out. It was a horrible experience for him because of the technology of the time. It would NEVER start during the winter and without a turbo it was next to nutless.

He swore off diesels after that burb, and only recently has he become interested again after rolling in my LBZ and acknowledging how good the duramax is.

Bring on the 4.5L!!!!

A couple of things I want to lay out here....

I constantly see in this thread and in real life; that a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup is physically larger than a 1/2 ton pickup or Suburban. It's not.

Second, I saw posted that the reason we here in the US don't have diesel cars is because of emissions? Don't Europeans have higher emission standards? I believe people in the US just don't understand or want to understand diesels. Just about EVERY car in Europe that is available here in the US has a diesel engine option. Yes, they are less powerful, and a bit noisier, but mileage is great, and in Europe, diesel is cheaper than gas. Also, you see a lot more smaller cars, and I'd say about 90% of cars in Europe are manual transmissions.

Are we just too spoiled here in the US?


My parents just bought a Diesel Jetta. It gets 35mpg around town, and 45+ on the highway. Thats not hyper-mileing it, thats just driving. It has LOTs of get up and go, and has more than enough power. Why isn't the Chevy Cruze offered with a nice 1.5L TD in it???

Is diesel for everyone.....NO.

But all these hybrids are going to be costing several thousand dollars when some fancy battery or electric motor part goes bad 8 years from now.


I say bring this 4.5 DMax into production. Put it in a LOT of different vehicles. But please GM, make it affordable!

hmm, maybe a 4.5L Duramax powered Chevy Chevelle???

i'm not talking an oldschool Chevelle, i'm talking the new Chevelle that Chevy is bringing back.

this one:

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2010/11/19/2053603/1_chevy-commodore_420-420x0.jpg

I already have the Pontiac version!

I think there is going be be a very very limited market for a 1/2 ton diesel truck.

To me, most of the new 1/2ton buyers today are buying them for cars more than trucks. The family hauler with a small boat and groceries, to which a 5.3L or even the smaller engines do fine. A 1/2ton isn't going to be able to compete with a 3/4 or 1ton it never will. The extra power of the diesel just plain isn't needed because the rest of the truck just isn't built to tow & haul. Throw an extra couple thousand at the price tag for the diesel truck and the people that would be looking at it will just spring for the 3/4ton option.

Toyota claims their Tundra does, lol!

Well, we all know that the Toyota's are a really bad joke, that is, unless they have upgraded them significantly in the last few years... honestly haven't followed them... but then again, who's worried about gas mileage when your accelerator sticks to the floor? :D

As to the old 6.2s, seems they were really bad or really good. I must have one of the really good ones in my '90 cc R30 dump. Still in daily service with almost 450k kms on it... starts year round, tho it was a little bit cranky the other night in the -20*C but I guess I can't shoot it for that! Slow and steady wins the race with those, trust me, its slow and steady whether you want it to be or not! :D

My guess is since the Government owns both GM and Dodge, Dodge will get the 1/2 ton with the Cummins and we'll get stuck with the tincan VOLT!!!!

They might not be doing this only for power, but for fuel economy.

:ditto:Look at the VW TDI's with 50MPH's...

uh GM paid off it's loans, it's no longer government owned ;)

Uh.....no they didn't.

Uh.....no they didn't.

If I'm not mistaken, GM Canada did, like two years early...

IF they bring them to market. GM is in this to make money. If they thought the 4.5 suburban would have been profitable, then they would have already brought it to market.

I wish there was some way to make you guys understand how realistic im being.

If they released the duramax suburban tomorrow (with its 60k++ price tag that it WILL have), I would be very surprised if they even sold 1000 of them in the next year.

You guys think its so simple "oh wtf GM just throw it in there and thats it". NO. You have to certify it, you have to CRASH TEST IT, you have to do FUEL ECON TESTING on it, you have to do DURABILITY testing on it, you have to to STABILITY CONTROL CALIBRATING/TESTING on it, you have to do retooling for PACKAGING/INTEGRATING, you have to secure suppliers for application specific parts, etc...

All these things that NO ONE THINKS ABOUT costs GM millions of dollars. Millions of dollars that they wont get back in terms of sales (because they wont sell many of them).

All to make 500 people per year happy? HA! I dont think so.

Ive seen probably 5 GMT-900 new body style 2500 suburbans on the road. In driving all around new england, driving from CT to Wisconsin, to Maine, to florida, to michigan, to ohio to maryland to... FIVE OF THEM!!! If only 3 people opted to buy a new suburban with the 3/4 ton package, there has got to be even less that would opt for the diesel package.

I mean really, even when they DID have a diesel suburban back in the 90's, ive only seen a small handful of those...and back then, people actually bought SUV's because they needed to tow!

If they came out with this engine next month, I know 100 people who'd buy one, be it the 1/2 truck or a suburban. So there's 20% of your supposed 500 people. Im sure they'd sell more than that.

If you ever towed anything with a gas 1/2 ton 5.3 you would want a diesel just for the fact that it makes power at a reasonable rpm unlike the gasers, i mean down shifting to second gear to make up a mile or two with the cruse control on, is stupid trans control!!!!!!!!!!! and who does'nt want better fuel mileage

I didn't realize they ever put the 6.2 in a 1/2 ton. I had one in my 90 3/4 ton Chevy in Alaska of all places. You talk about hard to start in the winter. Just had to keep cranking. Would lay down a smoke screen in the morning when I was trying to warm it to go to work that would choke out the whole neighborhood. Had to pick your spots to pass too. Down hill down wind was your best bet. My 1/2 ton CC 6.0 Max is definitely smaller than a 3/4 ton CC, bed is at least 6 inches shorter. Not near as difficult to get around in these damn tight parking lots they insist on building these days. But does down shift why too much when you are towing. Much better for around down as you don't have to worry near as much to warm it up or cool the turbo(s) when you stop.

but do you think they will get rid of the 6.6l and use the 4.5 l in everything? cause of emissions? and fuel economy?

I would be all over a 4.5 burban or tahoe for my wife.....In my subdivision alone there are 7 brand new suburbans 3 of which are 3/4 tons. 2 of those 3 3/4 tons have campers they pull with those Suburbans. GM would sell quite a few of them IMO. Look at the Excursion for example. People are still looking and buying those (hard to find Diesels) used and they sell like hot cakes for well over 25k with 150k+ miles on them and 5+ yrs old. There is a market out there for them.

Look at the Excursion for example. People are still looking and buying those (hard to find Diesels) used and they sell like hot cakes for well over 25k with 150k+ miles on them and 5+ yrs old.

My old boss has one of these Excursions with the dreaded 6.0L powerstroke. Even though its a total POS he absolutely refuses to get rid of it because he cant buy a new one. He uses it to pull his horse trailer and his boat. The guy loves SUVs and will not drive a pickup.

but do you think they will get rid of the 6.6l and use the 4.5 l in everything? cause of emissions? and fuel economy?

No, they'll keep the 6.6l in the "big" trucks, and have the 4.5 in the 1.2 tons and suburbans and Yukons. and a 1/2 duramax, would sell just fine. Anyone who says other wise isnt thinking right. I myself would buy one right away, as would my dad, and a whole bunch of other people i know.

I would buy one.
My Yukon might be rated at 15 and 19 mpg's but in real world driving I can't get any where near that. Usually get 13-14 and that's not towing. I love everything about my Yukon except for the mileage. I don't tow anything real heavy just my car and/or boat usually and man does it work to pull them. I don't have a need for a 3/4 ton and the hybrid's aren't rated very high in expected durability. BTW, Yukon's are considerably shorter than all the pickups and even the Sub/XL is only about as long as a regular cab long bed. Any of the trucks with four doors are "bigger."

No, they'll keep the 6.6l in the "big" trucks, and have the 4.5 in the 1.2 tons and suburbans and Yukons. and a 1/2 duramax, would sell just fine. Anyone who says other wise isnt thinking right. I myself would buy one right away, as would my dad, and a whole bunch of other people i know.

:shake:

I guess you just don't understand. :rolleyes:

Do you realize how much it will/would cost to bring this thing to market? Do you realize how many vehicles they would have to sell to make this project profitable???? Apparently not.......

it is a proven fact that the smaller diesel pickups get better fuel economy. Look at Toyota's over-seas market. Then look at Ford's overseas market. You will see that diesel is the way to go no matter what. I do wish GM and Dodge would just bite the bullet and do it. Maybe they both will be able to finally get away from the gov't control which is hindering their progress.

^^No shit it's the way to go, but will GM be able to convince the average person it is worth it to spend an extra 8 grand??? **** NO! If you figure out the inital price vs. fuel savings, it's really not that much you'll be saving in the long run.

it is a proven fact that the smaller diesel pickups get better fuel economy. Look at Toyota's over-seas market. Then look at Ford's overseas market. You will see that diesel is the way to go no matter what. I do wish GM and Dodge would just bite the bullet and do it. Maybe they both will be able to finally get away from the gov't control which is hindering their progress.
It is also a proven fact the the overseas (European) diesel fuel is a better quality and they are not choked down with all the emission equipment that is in the USA. Bring any of those across make the legal in the US and watch the mileage plummet.

I love all these "I would buy" comments but when it comes time to actually fork over the cash I'm betting 2/3 of you wouldn't go through with it.

I'm not sure it's higher quality fuel but rather the older formula of higher sulfur content.
Why write a post criticizing someones stated intentions? How is that productive conversation?
I would definitely buy a full-size light duty diesel SUV that got better than 20 mpg's.
Then again, since we're all talking about a "what if" world...If the Touareg was bigger I'd just buy it instead.

If they came out with this engine next month, I know 100 people who'd buy one, be it the 1/2 truck or a suburban. So there's 20% of your supposed 500 people. Im sure they'd sell more than that.

Yeah and I bet 95 of those 100 people who "would want to buy one" are tire kickers, they "think the idea is badass" and "would want one" but when push come to shove and they see the 60k price tag, they will say "ehhhh maybe ill wait a little bit"

:rolleyes:

see thats the thing. Everyone thinks its cool. Everyone wants one. But would everyone ACTUALLY PUT DOWN THE CASH? I dont think so.

Look at the Excursion for example

Yeah and they stopped making them BECAUSE THEY DIDNT SELL ANY.

The diesel SUV has such a limited (but devoted/hard-core nonetheless) fanbase/customer base that its NOT PROFITABLE. When are all you guys going to step outside of your "diesel bias" views and realize that 95% of the real public, 95% of the REAL WORLD SUBURBAN CUSTOMERS dont give a shit about a diesel???? :banghead:

^^No shit it's the way to go, but will GM be able to convince the average person it is worth it to spend an extra 8 grand??? **** NO! If you figure out the inital price vs. fuel savings, it's really not that much you'll be saving in the long run.

thank-you Ryan! Im glad at least one person in this thread agrees with me. :)

will GM be able to convince the average person it is worth it to spend an extra 8 grand???

This is where I think we disagree. The "average" guy I know who is looking at new pickups (and can afford one) is also the type of guy who wants the best fuel mileage combined with the best performance. Doesnt matter what they are going to use it for, they will all tell you they want the best mileage with the best performance. Leather, 50 different airbags, etc are not what the "average" truck guy cares about. For example, many guys (and companies) would rather save $8k in luxuries and instead spend that money to get a diesel truck. I think the cost is very manageable if handled correctly. Can GM do it while funding their union obligations and still make money? I guess time will tell.
But the bottom line for me is that there IS a significant demand, and the general attitude about diesel engines is changing here in America. I shouldn't have to drive a 2500HD lumber-wagon for my daily driver just to get the benefits of diesel. And think of 4.5L hotrod market that would open up!

I've read through here and it appears the naysayers should take a look and do some math as far as the diesel not being worth it. You guys keep saying the diesel option in a half ton will be 7k, but you have to remember that with the 2500 and 3500's, they come with the Allison and that is part of the extra cost. I'll bet the diesel option in the 1500's with the Hydramatic would be in the >$5000 range and maybe even less with negotiation. Let's say 5k just for kicks though. Let's assume the average Suburban gets 14 mpg at the current $2.85 gas price here in Georgia and you drive 15,000 miles a year. In a year, you're fuel cost will be $3053. With a diesel Suburban getting 20 mpg at $3.05 you're fuel cost will be 2285.

So 766 a year in fuel savings for the diesel Suburban times 5 years average ownership = $3830 in fuel over the gas version. $5000-3830= 1170 extra cost over a gasser in that time frame. Ok when you go to sell, the resale of the diesel shines. Right now an identical gasser 6.0 with 75k miles in a 3/4 ton goes for $22000, as opposed to $28660. So you'll get at least the $5000 you pain to begin with, but let's say $5000 just to be round.

So $5000-1170 (in extra cost from before)= $3830 advantage for the diesel over the gasser. I have no doubt that gap would be even larger as the diesel Excursions prove.

So total "cost" of getting a diesel actually saves you money over time, plus you get much better towing and longer engine life under load with the diesel. Let me be the guy selling the diesels just based on cost savings alone and I'll guarantee GM will sell all they make. :D

I've read through here and it appears the naysayers should take a look and do some math as far as the diesel not being worth it. You guys keep saying the diesel option in a half ton will be 7k, but you have to remember that with the 2500 and 3500's, they come with the Allison and that is part of the extra cost. I'll bet the diesel option in the 1500's with the Hydramatic would be in the >$5000 range and maybe even less with negotiation. Let's say 5k just for kicks though. Let's assume the average Suburban gets 14 mpg at the current $2.85 gas price here in Georgia and you drive 15,000 miles a year. In a year, you're fuel cost will be $3053. With a diesel Suburban getting 20 mpg at $3.05 you're fuel cost will be 2285.

So 766 a year in fuel savings for the diesel Suburban times 5 years average ownership = $3830 in fuel over the gas version. $5000-3830= 1170 extra cost over a gasser in that time frame. Ok when you go to sell, the resale of the diesel shines. Right now an identical gasser 6.0 with 75k miles in a 3/4 ton goes for $22000, as opposed to $28660. So you'll get at least the $5000 you pain to begin with, but let's say $5000 just to be round.

So $5000-1170 (in extra cost from before)= $3830 advantage for the diesel over the gasser. I have no doubt that gap would be even larger as the diesel Excursions prove.

So total "cost" of getting a diesel actually saves you money over time, plus you get much better towing and longer engine life under load with the diesel. Let me be the guy selling the diesels just based on cost savings alone and I'll guarantee GM will sell all they make. :D

Dude, you're preaching to the choir on this site. After all, why are we all members here? Look at my sig, and see what my opinion is. Could I have got the 6.0 in my truck? Absolutely...it would have pulled my trailer fine, been cheaper upfront, etc. But, I wanted the better fuel mileage, more power, better resale, etc. The problem is......you're selling to the wrong people.

The hard part is selling it to the average Joe. Pretty much the only thing it will have going for it(compared to our trucks) is fuel mileage, IMO. It won't ride that much better than a 2500 since they will beef up the chassis/suspension to use the 4.5 to it's full potential and have the ratings where they should be. Honestly, I think GM has all their bases covered as it is. The 6.2 will handle anything you can throw at the half-ton, but if you need a bit more, you can step up to 2500 with the gas or diesel.

Not to mention, I would say 1/2 - 3/4's of the population still think diesels won't start in the cold, are too loud, have no power, smoke like a freight train, etc. That's the problem....the general public, not the enthusiasts. And yes, I know you and your brother's friend's uncle's sister's grandpa will buy one.

This is where I think we disagree. The "average" guy I know who is looking at new pickups (and can afford one) is also the type of guy who wants the best fuel mileage combined with the best performance. Doesnt matter what they are going to use it for, they will all tell you they want the best mileage with the best performance. Leather, 50 different airbags, etc are not what the "average" truck guy cares about. For example, many guys (and companies) would rather save $8k in luxuries and instead spend that money to get a diesel truck.
This is NOT the average type of "truck guy". The average truck buyer for today's market wants leather heated seats, NAV, 5000 airbags for his kids, and a foot massager. Looks at the trucks on dealer's lots, how many of them are 3/4 or 1ton diesels and how many are 1/2ton or 3/4ton gassers? There is well more of the later and that explains it all.
The hard part is selling it to the average Joe. Pretty much the only thing it will have going for it(compared to our trucks) is fuel mileage, IMO. It won't ride that much better than a 2500 since they will beef up the chassis/suspension to use the 4.5 to it's full potential and have the ratings where they should be. Honestly, I think GM has all their bases covered as it is. The 6.2 will handle anything you can throw at the half-ton, but if you need a bit more, you can step up to 2500 with the gas or diesel.Exactly.

Dude, you're preaching to the choir on this site. After all, why are we all members here? Look at my sig, and see what my opinion is. Could I have got the 6.0 in my truck? Absolutely...it would have pulled my trailer fine, been cheaper upfront, etc. But, I wanted the better fuel mileage, more power, better resale, etc. The problem is......you're selling to the wrong people.

The hard part is selling it to the average Joe. Pretty much the only thing it will have going for it(compared to our trucks) is fuel mileage, IMO. It won't ride that much better than a 2500 since they will beef up the chassis/suspension to use the 4.5 to it's full potential and have the ratings where they should be. Honestly, I think GM has all their bases covered as it is. The 6.2 will handle anything you can throw at the half-ton, but if you need a bit more, you can step up to 2500 with the gas or diesel.

Not to mention, I would say 1/2 - 3/4's of the population still think diesels won't start in the cold, are too loud, have no power, smoke like a freight train, etc. That's the problem....the general public, not the enthusiasts. And yes, I know you and your brother's friend's uncle's sister's grandpa will buy one.


If GM were to educate people on the benefits of a small diesel in a fullsize SUV, then they would sell them. I see a big problem with marketing in all three car makers. In an attempt to dumb things down for people, they fail to realize that a lot of people can understand fuel cost savings and resale value. People tend to take notice when you tell them how they can save money, especially when they see real world results. GM should get a test car program going with 100 or so 4.5's with people who were buying a gas one to begin with. Then use these people and their results to sell the 4.5 as a cost saving engine in the long run. You guys are saying the diesel will not sell to John Q. Carbuyer, and I know it can with the right strategy.

If GM were to educate people on the benefits of a small diesel in a fullsize SUV, then they would sell them. I see a big problem with marketing in all three car makers. In an attempt to dumb things down for people, they fail to realize that a lot of people can understand fuel cost savings and resale value. People tend to take notice when you tell them how they can save money, especially when they see real world results. GM should get a test car program going with 100 or so 4.5's with people who were buying a gas one to begin with. Then use these people and their results to sell the 4.5 as a cost saving engine in the long run. You guys are saying the diesel will not sell to John Q. Carbuyer, and I know it can with the right strategy.

Tons of marketing/advertising = HUGE $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ = mediocre profits.

Tons of marketing/advertising = HUGE $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ = mediocre profits.

You can make it simple. Show a Ford gasser struggling to go up a hill and then a 1500 4.5 blows by it, the Duramax driver waves. 4.5 driver stops to get food and Ford passes him back. A few miles up the road, Ford driver is stopped at gas station, while 4.5 driver waves as they go by. Commercial ends with "The new 4.5L compact Duramax, passes everything including the gas station." Then mpg numbers flash on the screen comparing it to the Ford's. Simple cheap and effective. ;)

You can make it simple. Show a Ford gasser struggling to go up a hill and then a 1500 4.5 blows by it, the Duramax driver waves. 4.5 driver stops to get food and Ford passes him back. A few miles up the road, Ford driver is stopped at gas station, while 4.5 driver waves as they go by. Commercial ends with "The new 4.5L compact Duramax, passes everything including the gas station." Then mpg numbers flash on the screen comparing it to the Ford's. Simple cheap and effective. ;)

So you're in marketing then? :)

So you're in marketing then? :)


No, just an unpaid marketing advisor. :D

If GM were to educate people on the benefits of a small diesel in a fullsize SUV, then they would sell them. I see a big problem with marketing in all three car makers. In an attempt to dumb things down for people, they fail to realize that a lot of people can understand fuel cost savings and resale value. People tend to take notice when you tell them how they can save money, especially when they see real world results. GM should get a test car program going with 100 or so 4.5's with people who were buying a gas one to begin with. Then use these people and their results to sell the 4.5 as a cost saving engine in the long run. You guys are saying the diesel will not sell to John Q. Carbuyer, and I know it can with the right strategy.
Face it, the 4.5L is dead as it should be. If it is going to take someone 5 years to pay off the extra cost of the diesel before they trade it in they'd be better off to take the starting cost and throw it in a high interest CD.

Plus as it was stated before you can't simple slap in a new engine. There are several very expensive tests and procedures that have to take place. Those 100 "test cars" would be astronomically priced.
You can make it simple. Show a Ford gasser struggling to go up a hill and then a 1500 4.5 blows by it, the Duramax driver waves. 4.5 driver stops to get food and Ford passes him back. A few miles up the road, Ford driver is stopped at gas station, while 4.5 driver waves as they go by. Commercial ends with "The new 4.5L compact Duramax, passes everything including the gas station." Then mpg numbers flash on the screen comparing it to the Ford's. Simple cheap and effective. ;)The making of the short clips are the cheap part. Paying for the airtime and slots as well as getting the word out is the costly part.

There are several very expensive tests and procedures that have to take place.
Wasn't that already done when the first introduction of this engine was made and all the test vehicles it was installed into toured around the country?
:confuzeld

This is NOT the average type of "truck guy". The average truck buyer for today's market wants leather heated seats, NAV, 5000 airbags for his kids, and a foot massager. Looks at the trucks on dealer's lots, how many of them are 3/4 or 1ton diesels and how many are 1/2ton or 3/4ton gassers? There is well more of the later and that explains it all.
Exactly.

I want you to think about what you said. If you look at any dealership there's more half ton trucks than anything. HMMM...why would dealers stockpile half tons if they weren't selling? Honestly I think the 4.5L would take off, its just the risk involved poking you head in the door. If Dodge is putting a 5.0L V8 cummins, yes thats right V8, in they're half-tons, GM and Ford are bound to follow. Although I'd like to see what Ford pops out of the magic hole. Anyways back to my point, if the half tons are everywhere and the average joe wants his luxuries, especially with the higher costs of living today then he's going to have to fork up an extra few thousand, but the increase in mileage, power, towing, comfort and decrease in noise of todays diesel engines will definitely convince me to buy a half ton. Its got the same power as its older 6.6L brother/sister, whichever you prefer, but in a smaller, lighter package. Its like god rained down a gift upon the light truck market. Trust me, after you compare the two side by side and let the customer drive both vehicles, I'll bet you at least 75% of the time they will pick the diesel.

Also, the 4.5L is meant to be a direct drop in for an LS series engine. Think about that, diesel Cadillacs, possibly 4 door passenger cars like the G8 from Pontiac, although Pontiac is no more. Hell as soon as I heard that its a replacement for the LS series, I immediately thought "Holy S##t, we might see a diesel Corvette somewhere in the future. Cus if the standard is gonna be 42 mpg, then there isn't going to be Corvettes, Vipers, GT's, Mustangs, Camaros. Think about the possibilities like you said and reconsider your opinion is all i'm saying.

Wasn't that already done when the first introduction of this engine was made and all the test vehicles it was installed into toured around the country?
:confuzeldNew configuration = new round of tests.

I want you to think about what you said. If you look at any dealership there's more half ton trucks than anything. My point wasn't the 1/2tons, my point was there seem to be 5 gas trucks for every diesel pickup.
If Dodge is putting a 5.0L V8 cummins, yes thats right V8, in they're half-tons, GM and Ford are bound to follow. Although I'd like to see what Ford pops out of the magic hole.
:rolleyes: That's the whole well you jumped of a bridge so I should too example. Did GM or Dodge follow Ford in 2000 thru 2005 with the diesel Excursion? Nope.
Anyways back to my point, if the half tons are everywhere and the average joe wants his luxuries, especially with the higher costs of living today then he's going to have to fork up an extra few thousand, but the increase in mileage, power, towing, comfort and decrease in noise of todays diesel engines will definitely convince me to buy a half ton. Exactly with the first part, which is why they would not purchase the diesel. The average truck buyer today wants a smooth soft car type ride. Heck look at all the people on this forum even who complain about bumps on the freeway and back dirt roads. Someone who wants to tow is not going to buy the little diesel engine, they are going to get up to the larger truck and engine. The 4.5L would only be a hotrod type deal and limited market. Really really think about this.
How many 6.0L gassers are sold for every 6.6L diesel?
For 2005 (only year I had numbers for), not including cab and chassis as I think we can both agree that someone buying a cab and chassis is not going to swap over to a 1/2ton, there were 473686 2500 and 3500 Silverados sold. Only 44.1% of those (208980) were diesels. Do you really think that it is a smart move on GM's part to produce something that isn't even selling in half the market it is already in? I don't.

Face it, the 4.5L is dead as it should be. If it is going to take someone 5 years to pay off the extra cost of the diesel before they trade it in they'd be better off to take the starting cost and throw it in a high interest CD.

Plus as it was stated before you can't simple slap in a new engine. There are several very expensive tests and procedures that have to take place. Those 100 "test cars" would be astronomically priced.
The making of the short clips are the cheap part. Paying for the airtime and slots as well as getting the word out is the costly part.

Well using your logic I guess you shouldn't have bought a 2006 truck, you should have just drove a older 3/4 ton around with a 454 and used the extar money you would have paid for your current truck and put it in a cd? What exactly do you consider a high interest CD? Right now the best I've seen is just over 2%.

I think you would rather be right and have the 4.5 fail than me be right and the 4.5 be a successful engine. Myself as a consumer, I want all the options I could possible have.

You guys who say it would too expensive and that GM shouldn't do it sound exactly like GM saying the 6.6 could not be put in older 1/2 tons without major modification and huge costs. Well go over to frankenstein and look up all the trucks that theTDIguy has done. This is using donor vehicles and swapping over components. Now imagine GM with nearly unlimited resources compared to those guys and starting with a clean slate. The 4.5 was designed to fit in the same area as a small block gasser, so that's one less hurdle that GM doesn't have-finding room. Now about the transmission, the 4.5 was designed to fit behind the 6L90, so that problem is already solved. So basically you guys are claiming that the electronics would be so much different that it's not feasible- I say bull. The electronics would be the last hurdle and for you guys to scream it would cost too much, shows me you really haven't been paying attention in the last few years.

You guys who say it would too expensive and that GM shouldn't do it sound exactly like GM saying the 6.6 could not be put in older 1/2 tons without major modification and huge costs. Well go over to frankenstein and look up all the trucks that theTDIguy has done. This is using donor vehicles and swapping over components. Now imagine GM with nearly unlimited resources compared to those guys and starting with a clean slate. The 4.5 was designed to fit in the same area as a small block gasser, so that's one less hurdle that GM doesn't have-finding room. Now about the transmission, the 4.5 was designed to fit behind the 6L90, so that problem is already solved. So basically you guys are claiming that the electronics would be so much different that it's not feasible- I say bull. The electronics would be the last hurdle and for you guys to scream it would cost too much, shows me you really haven't been paying attention in the last few years.

Exactly, the new diesel is supposed to be a drop in for most any LS based engine. Think how many vehicles from GM have an LS based engine? Cadillac, Pontiac, Chevrolet, GMC, all of those brand names have at least a minimum of two vehicles with an LS. Your the one not thinking dude, there's plenty of vehicles that need the extra gas mileage right now. And if CAFE standards are going to be 42mpg for cars in 2015, HOW ELSE ARE THEY GOING TO GET THERE WITHOUT DIESEL???????!!!!!!! I'm not driving around a smart car, pardon my language but **** that pop can.

Oh and RC, use your brain, they already have the beefed up suspension to tow 10K and its still comfortable like a car, the brakes to stop the damn thing, and the transmission and engine already figured out. All they have to do is retool the assembly line and guess what? NEW SILVERADOS!!!!!

I'll tell ya right now that it will sell. My neighbor bought one of the last little jeeps with diesel power, before they nixed it, for fuel economy over the gas motor. I would have bought a half ton or tahoe type rig for the wife to drive with a 4.5 in it, hands down. Instead she is driving a Torrent that gets about 20-22 and we are rural. If that small diesel is released it will be a hit if they can keep the price in line somewhat. It will save on fuel, out pull the gasser and will live much longer too. The motor is ready, I have been waiting a few years to be able to buy a new smaller vehicle with a diesel in it, just don't want to have to buy a foreign rig to get it. I really hope it happens.

this would also be perfect for the project 69 gmc short bed my boy has ;)

Im not sure if you guys heard, but if you go to the allmopar website they said that this diesel V8 option was a mistake. All orders that were made with this option have been changed. So no half ton diesel from the pentastar group

Well using your logic I guess you shouldn't have bought a 2006 truck, you should have just drove a older 3/4 ton around with a 454 and used the extar money you would have paid for your current truck and put it in a cd? What exactly do you consider a high interest CD? Right now the best I've seen is just over 2%.
Yes, because buying an older truck in the rust belt is a great idea. :rolleyes:
I actually need the power of a diesel over the gasser which is why I rig of my old gasser. Not for mileage, not for comfort, not for the "cool" factor.

Some numbers:
- A new diesel option adds $8395 to the price tag ($7195 engine + $1200 trans)
- A 5 year old vehicle resale value goes up $6400 for the diesel option (taken from KBB for an '06 with 62k miles identical options other than 6.0L vs 6.6L)
- Mileage of 6.0L taken at 14mpg @ $2.99/gal driven 15000 miles is $3204/year
- Mileage of 6.6L taken at 20mpg @ 3.23/gal again 15000 miles is $2423
- Mileage of 5.3L Silverado taken @ 19mpg @ 2.99/gal again 15000 miles is $2360
- Your dream 4.5L getting 30mpg (never going to happen but I'll do it) @ 3.23/gal is $1615/year

So going from a 6.0L to a 6.6L saves you $781/year. This would take you over 10 years to pay that off the difference. Going from a 5.3L to your magical 4.5L would take you over 11 years to pay off. Going from a 6.0L to your magical 4.5L would take you over 5.5 years to pay off. This does not include the extra interest if you took out a loan or the added costs of simply owning a diesel.

So using 5.5years at your 2% interest would yield $975 in interest. Add that to the $1995 you lost in the initial purchase to added resale and you are now $2970 in the hole. That a large chunk of change.

Again, I'm not saying buying a gas job is a good idea for someone looking to really use a truck as a truck, those types of people are going to buy a 3/4ton. Those you "diesel ricers" (pretty much proven since you'd like to see them in something like a 'vette) that want a 1/2ton are only loosing in the end. I'm not against little diesel cars at all, they'd be a great choice, just putting them in a 1/2ton is not productive.
Oh and RC, use your brain, they already have the beefed up suspension to tow 10K and its still comfortable like a car, the brakes to stop the damn thing, and the transmission and engine already figured out. All they have to do is retool the assembly line and guess what? NEW SILVERADOS!!!!!Yes, cause insults help the argument. :rolleyes:

Again, just because they can do it doesn't mean you should. A Tundra is rated to tow that much, would you use on of those and feel safe?

Also again, you can't just simply retool the assembly line and call it good. There is several stages of testing, reports, certs, etc. Do you even have any idea on what is involved with you" simple retooling"? I can tell you are not in manufacturing.

I'm done with this, you 'gents have been fun to go round and round with but this discussion is going nowhere quick, but all is well. :beerchug:
Im not sure if you guys heard, but if you go to the allmopar website they said that this diesel V8 option was a mistake. All orders that were made with this option have been changed. So no half ton diesel from the pentastar group
Interesting.

please post link to articel

Yes, because buying an older truck in the rust belt is a great idea. :rolleyes: You're the one who started painting with a broad brush. I called you on it to maie a point. Why do you care what other people do with their money? Are you a liberal? :p:
I actually need the power of a diesel over the gasser which is why I rig of my old gasser. Not for mileage, not for comfort, not for the "cool" factor.
Are you assuning that all people will buy the diesel to be cool and not because they need it. For people who drive a lot, the 4.5 would be a great fuel saver, especially if they use it in a business. I put 30k miles year on my dually and a 4.5 would do all I ask of it. No gasser can haul 10k and get 12mpg while doing it, while having any power. Sorry ain't happening. I've driven 454s and 350's in lighter 1 tons that what I drive now and they both got less than 13 unloaded and loaded with anything over 3 or 4klbs, would not get out of their own way.
Some numbers:
- A new diesel option adds $8395 to the price tag ($7195 engine + $1200 trans)
- A 5 year old vehicle resale value goes up $6400 for the diesel option (taken from KBB for an '06 with 62k miles identical options other than 6.0L vs 6.6L)
- Mileage of 6.0L taken at 14mpg @ $2.99/gal driven 15000 miles is $3204/year
- Mileage of 6.6L taken at 20mpg @ 3.23/gal again 15000 miles is $2423
- Mileage of 5.3L Silverado taken @ 19mpg @ 2.99/gal again 15000 miles is $2360
- Your dream 4.5L getting 30mpg (never going to happen but I'll do it) @ 3.23/gal is $1615/year

So going from a 6.0L to a 6.6L saves you $781/year. This would take you over 10 years to pay that off the difference. Going from a 5.3L to your magical 4.5L would take you over 11 years to pay off. Going from a 6.0L to your magical 4.5L would take you over 5.5 years to pay off. This does not include the extra interest if you took out a loan or the added costs of simply owning a diesel.

So using 5.5years at your 2% interest would yield $975 in interest. Add that to the $1995 you lost in the initial purchase to added resale and you are now $2970 in the hole. That a large chunk of change.

Again, I'm not saying buying a gas job is a good idea for someone looking to really use a truck as a truck, those types of people are going to buy a 3/4ton. Those you "diesel ricers" (pretty much proven since you'd like to see them in something like a 'vette) that want a 1/2ton are only loosing in the end. I'm not against little diesel cars at all, they'd be a great choice, just putting them in a 1/2ton is not productive.
Yes, cause insults help the argument. :rolleyes:

Again, just because they can do it doesn't mean you should. A Tundra is rated to tow that much, would you use on of those and feel safe?

Also again, you can't just simply retool the assembly line and call it good. There is several stages of testing, reports, certs, etc. Do you even have any idea on what is involved with you" simple retooling"? I can tell you are not in manufacturing.

I'm done with this, you 'gents have been fun to go round and round with but this discussion is going nowhere quick, but all is well. :beerchug:

Interesting.


You throw out insults, but when someone shoots back you complain. :rolleyes:

Why would the 4.5 cost $8400 more, did you just pull that number out of the air? Why would there be a 1200 charge for a tranny when the 6L90 was designed to handle what the 4.5 can put out? You're over-estimating numbers to try to prove a point. I'll bet the diesel is no more than a $6600 option. I'll also bet that a 4.5 would get 20+mpg over a 5.3 getting less than 14mpg lugging around a Suburban. My wife's 5.3 5500lb Tahoe can get 17-18 mpg at 75 mph. My dually with worse aerodynamics, two more wheels and 2500 more lbs to lug around gets 17-19 at 75mph. Add in the smaller more efficient 4.5, 2000 less lbs, and a more aerodynamic body and there is no doubt 25 mpg is attainable on the hwy in a Tahoe.

You're the one who started painting with a broad brush. I called you on it to maie a point. Why do you care what other people do with their money? Actually my brush was quite narrow. I was limiting my posts to 1/2ton pickups, not 'vettes or anything else LS based. Please go back and re-read if you do not believe this.
Are you a liberal? :p:
Far from this good sir.

Are you assuning that all people will buy the diesel to be cool and not because they need it. For people who drive a lot, the 4.5 would be a great fuel saver, especially if they use it in a business. I put 30k miles year on my dually and a 4.5 would do all I ask of it. No gasser can haul (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4123677#) 10k and get 12mpg while doing it, while having any power. Sorry ain't happening. I've driven 454s and 350's in lighter 1 tons that what I drive now and they both got less than 13 unloaded and loaded with anything over 3 or 4klbs, would not get out of their own way. If you think any 1/2ton is doing to handle 10k pounds like a dually you are very much mistaken.You throw out insults, but when someone shoots back you complain. :rolleyes:I was done with this until this comment. Not once did I push out a personal attack on anyone, I never would. Others started in with the "use your brain" comments, not myself or you.
I was merely trying to have an intelligent discussion with facts and hard data from things that have happened and are available at the present. Unfortunately for some they can not handle this without resorting to childish tactics. If you whatever reason you think the rolling eyes smile is an insult then by all means my apologies and I'll owe you a beer as that was not the intent. I have tried to pose several intelligent thought provoking questions and not one of them has been replied. Oh well, maybe next time.
Why would the 4.5 cost $8400 more, did you just pull that number out of the air? Why would there be a 1200 charge for a tranny when the 6L90 was designed to handle what the 4.5 can put out? You're over-estimating numbers to try to prove a point. I'll bet the diesel is no more than a $6600 option. I'll also bet that a 4.5 would get 20+mpg over a 5.3 getting less than 14mpg lugging around a Suburban. My wife's 5.3 5500lb Tahoe can get 17-18 mpg at 75 mph. My dually with worse aerodynamics, two more wheels and 2500 more lbs to lug around gets 17-19 at 75mph. Add in the smaller more efficient 4.5, 2000 less lbs, and a more aerodynamic body and there is no doubt 25 mpg is attainable on the hwy in a Tahoe.
The $8395 figure came from the current cost difference from a 6.0L to a 6.6L. Where did your $6600 number come from?

I was not disputing realistic mpg numbers with you, I never was. Expecting to see what they do overseas with little 'yotas as someone (not yourself) pointed out isn't going to happen in the near future.

Again, I am not against the 4.5L engine (go back and look at all my posts) I just do not think that putting it in a 1/2ton platform is the best use or productive use for GM. Obviously we don't share views on this, but not being a liberal I won't force them on you. ;)

Good day, maybe a more stimulating conversation next time. :)

Yes, because buying an older truck in the rust belt is a great idea. :rolleyes:
I actually need the power of a diesel over the gasser which is why I rig of my old gasser. Not for mileage, not for comfort, not for the "cool" factor.

Some numbers:
- A new diesel option adds $8395 to the price tag ($7195 engine + $1200 trans)
- A 5 year old vehicle resale value goes up $6400 for the diesel option (taken from KBB for an '06 with 62k miles identical options other than 6.0L vs 6.6L)
- Mileage of 6.0L taken at 14mpg @ $2.99/gal driven 15000 miles is $3204/year
- Mileage of 6.6L taken at 20mpg @ 3.23/gal again 15000 miles is $2423
- Mileage of 5.3L Silverado taken @ 19mpg @ 2.99/gal again 15000 miles is $2360
- Your dream 4.5L getting 30mpg (never going to happen but I'll do it) @ 3.23/gal is $1615/year

So going from a 6.0L to a 6.6L saves you $781/year. This would take you over 10 years to pay that off the difference. Going from a 5.3L to your magical 4.5L would take you over 11 years to pay off. Going from a 6.0L to your magical 4.5L would take you over 5.5 years to pay off. This does not include the extra interest if you took out a loan or the added costs of simply owning a diesel.

So using 5.5years at your 2% interest would yield $975 in interest. Add that to the $1995 you lost in the initial purchase to added resale and you are now $2970 in the hole. That a large chunk of change.

Again, I'm not saying buying a gas job is a good idea for someone looking to really use a truck as a truck, those types of people are going to buy a 3/4ton. Those you "diesel ricers" (pretty much proven since you'd like to see them in something like a 'vette) that want a 1/2ton are only loosing in the end. I'm not against little diesel cars at all, they'd be a great choice, just putting them in a 1/2ton is not productive.
Yes, cause insults help the argument. :rolleyes:

Again, just because they can do it doesn't mean you should. A Tundra is rated to tow that much, would you use on of those and feel safe?

Also again, you can't just simply retool the assembly line and call it good. There is several stages of testing, reports, certs, etc. Do you even have any idea on what is involved with you" simple retooling"? I can tell you are not in manufacturing.

I'm done with this, you 'gents have been fun to go round and round with but this discussion is going nowhere quick, but all is well. :beerchug:

Interesting.

Dude,
1. Never driven a Tundra
2. Its a Toyota, I drive GM
3. Nothing against Toyota
4. Double Associates Degree in Auto/High Performance
5. I've been a mechanic since day one
6. I'm only 21
7. Yes I understand completely what my "simple retooling" according to you, and all the testing of the vehicles means.
8. If the truck is already tested with a similar engine AKA the 5.3L, and if you want to disagree with similar, horsepower, weight, size, and your comparing apples to oranges with the 6.6L and the 4.5L. They're in two different trucks.
9. Your argument has only been about how its not going to be productive for GM and why the 4.5L is such a bad idea. If it was such a bad idea, why was it on the table for production in the first place?
10. And if I wanted to insult you, trust me you'd be contacting an admin, but I'll be the bigger man.
11. Diesel Ricer? How does that even work? Think about where the world is going? Fuel mileage is going to be your new era, not horsepower. So the 4.5L would be a milestone for GM. Rather than keeping a 7.0L:hail: in the Corvette why not put the 4.5L in it and go after Audi? Christ they have a diesel in they're race cars, passenger cars, and SUVs.
12. My 9,000 Lb dually isn't a ricer, it's a freight train.

Oh and I forgot lucky number 13. All they have to do to retool, is change the engine and transmission hoists and what motor and trans mounts they install. Plus a few computer programs since everything isn't assembled by hand anymore. The development of the engine already brought about wiring harnesses, ECMs, TCMs, BCMs, the new 6L90E, the actual 4.5L prototype (which is being finished and put in a Corvette if you haven't done your research, maybe not by GM but someone else sees the potential that I do), stronger rear axles AKA the 14 bolt rear end that is supposed to be behind it, the brakes were already there, the body was already there, the frame was already upgraded which gave it the ability to tow 10K, and obviously people like the 1/2 tons already. It'll be a cheaper option rather than a 3/4 ton which your average joe that wants comfort, and a car like ride, which a 3/4 ton compared to a 1/2 ton for ride quality? Please tell me you know the answer to that question? One last thing before I write you off, the 4.5L would give people the comfort to tow 10K, and the ability to unhook the trailer and fit it downtown anywhere, rather than searching for a place to leave your 3/4 ton because it won't fit in most parking garages now a days. End Argument, Face.

If the cost argument is such a factor then the 8.1 would have put the 6.6 out of business instead of the other way around. I would highly consider this 4.5 in various applications, not just the half ton pickup. I do think GM needs a pricing structure that is scaled, meaning the 4.5 should be less than the 6.6 and even offer it as an option in place of the 6.6 for 2500's
I'm ready to buy one be it a half ton or tahoe/suburban or even in a sedan. Can you see the highway patrol running these?

http://www.dieselforum.org/news-center/press-clips/gm-ponders-reviving-4.5-liter-duramax-v-8-diesel

Sure it might be from June, but still, FACE!
This entire article supports everything I've said. Wheres yours?

If you want a diesel in a 1/2 ton truck call dstroked.com for info on putting a Cummins in any truck you want done. They can set you up with the conversion components and info to do or get it done. Put a 4BT Cummins in a 1/2 Chevy with a bigger turbo and injectors if you want power. Let GM sit and sort it out in the mean time make it and drive it because it's out there and you can buy used nice trucks cheap jerk the gas engine and tranny and sell it or make another hotrod out of that drivetrain. We have all diesels no problem it's just out there if you want it.

This has been said before by me and others like Ford, (I am not a Ford endorser).

Car producers are hesitant to introduce diesel cars and small trucks into the US because of in lamest terms most Americans are diesel stupid. They do not realize the upside of them and assume they are still black smoke blowing freight trains like in the 70's. Ford has a Focus diesel car in Europe that they claim it gets 65 mpg, they wouldn’t even think of having it here.

I am not an expert but I think Europe has the same if not higher emissions on diesel as the US. Also diesel is cheaper there and a lot of other countries because they produce more of it because of demand from a lot of diesel engine options. If you do the logical economical thinking higher demand causes higher production of diesel which could make diesel cheaper than gas again, but no guarantee since it could still drive the price up in the same regards of higher demand makes prices higher.

All I know is I would like a smaller diesel truck than my CCLB for daily driving since my daily driver needs to be upgraded for more room.

This has been said before by me and others like Ford, (I am not a Ford endorser).

Car producers are hesitant to introduce diesel cars and small trucks into the US because of in lamest terms most Americans are diesel stupid. They do not realize the upside of them and assume they are still black smoke blowing freight trains like in the 70's. Ford has a Focus diesel car in Europe that they claim it gets 65 mpg, they wouldn’t even think of having it here.

I am not an expert but I think Europe has the same if not higher emissions on diesel as the US. Also diesel is cheaper there and a lot of other countries because they produce more of it because of demand from a lot of diesel engine options. If you do the logical economical thinking higher demand causes higher production of diesel which could make diesel cheaper than gas again, but no guarantee since it could still drive the price up in the same regards of higher demand makes prices higher.

All I know is I would like a smaller diesel truck than my CCLB for daily driving since my daily driver needs to be upgraded for more room.

You are right when you said Americans are Diesel stupid. I was also some time ago also. Two trips to Germany fixed that. Audi and VW started a big campain to educate the US on clean diesel. I then read about the development of their R10 TDI race car. Everywhere at the races there were TDI ads/posters/signs. It has really taken off for Audi/VW. Now other manufactures should follow- timidly. I even went out and bought a used VW TDI. It is as good as they say it is.


And as far as the 3/4 ton diesel being a bigger vehicle- well, not bigger but taller. My dad was looking at some of the 2500HDs but they will not fit into his garage. Too tall. The half tons sit lower. He was interested back in the day about the 4.5 duramax because he doesn't need a 3/4 ton, just a 1/2 ton.

http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2010/10/diesel-economics-201/

http://www.thedieseldriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/2010-9-month-diesel-salesv23.jpg

This has been said before by me and others like Ford, (I am not a Ford endorser).

Car producers are hesitant to introduce diesel cars and small trucks into the US because of in lamest terms most Americans are diesel stupid. They do not realize the upside of them and assume they are still black smoke blowing freight trains like in the 70's. Ford has a Focus diesel car in Europe that they claim it gets 65 mpg, they wouldn’t even think of having it here.

I am not an expert but I think Europe has the same if not higher emissions on diesel as the US. Also diesel is cheaper there and a lot of other countries because they produce more of it because of demand from a lot of diesel engine options. If you do the logical economical thinking higher demand causes higher production of diesel which could make diesel cheaper than gas again, but no guarantee since it could still drive the price up in the same regards of higher demand makes prices higher.

All I know is I would like a smaller diesel truck than my CCLB for daily driving since my daily driver needs to be upgraded for more room.

why not???

till this day i cant understand why diesel fuel is higher than gas but diesel is cheaper to refine......I heard diesel is high in demand because of home heating oil is getting used more in colder seasons.....seem like if demand is high the price should be lower.

seem like if demand is high the price should be lower

Law of supply and demand shows us that if supply is held constant and demand is increased then the price has to increase.
Only way to offset this is to increase supply and/or try to benefit from economy of scale. (the more you make the cheaper each unit becomes).

I have an 07 Tundra and it has been a great truck. Thankfully it came out and forced the big 3 to step up their game in half-tons. Now the Tundra lags everyone except the Titan. However at the time, it had the best ride, most gas power, best interior. I really want to buy an American truck to replacement. First preference is the 4.5L diesel. Half-ton will tow what I want to tow and works for me. It is much easier to park compared to a 3/4 HD pickup and rides alot better. Failing a small diesel, I will probably get the Ford F150 with 3.5L Eco-Boost. Very interested to see what the towing mileage is with that puppy.

I think there is going be be a very very limited market for a 1/2 ton diesel truck.

To me, most of the new 1/2ton buyers today are buying them for cars more than trucks. The family hauler with a small boat and groceries, to which a 5.3L or even the smaller engines do fine. A 1/2ton isn't going to be able to compete with a 3/4 or 1ton it never will. The extra power of the diesel just plain isn't needed because the rest of the truck just isn't built to tow & haul. Throw an extra couple thousand at the price tag for the diesel truck and the people that would be looking at it will just spring for the 3/4ton option.


I am one of those guys that uses my truck as a commuter/daily driver.I have little use really for a truck but I like having the capability available.My last truck was a 2007 Ram with the 5.9 Cummins.I LOVED that truck but it was just too big and heavy.A 1/2 ton Diesel would fit me a lot better.To me this is a no-brainer,a 1/2 ton truck with 280-300hp which gets 25-30mpg -I'd buy one.

And really, Who wants to drive around a bigass 3/4 ton if they've never driven one, When you could get great fuel mileage, better towing, and better overall performance than a gasser. And the price would be relatively down since its still a half ton, yet having a diesel :/



Yes...EXACTLY!!!

This has been said before by me and others like Ford, (I am not a Ford endorser).

I am not an expert but I think Europe has the same if not higher emissions on diesel as the US. Also diesel is cheaper there and a lot of other countries because they produce more of it because of demand from a lot of diesel engine options. If you do the logical economical thinking higher demand causes higher production of diesel which could make diesel cheaper than gas again, but no guarantee since it could still drive the price up in the same regards of higher demand makes prices higher.

All I know is I would like a smaller diesel truck than my CCLB for daily driving since my daily driver needs to be upgraded for more room.

We sell our "excess" diesel fuel to Europe and they sell us their "excess" gasoline. With the amount of gasoline we use as a country we would have more diesel fuel than we would know what to do with. Of course, that doesn't play into the plans of the oil compaines.

They might not be doing this only for power, but for fuel economy.
The europeans use mainly diesel's, their emission standards are higher and their milage is higher. I think it's time we stop getting rakes with these fuel guzzlers and get a nice fuel efficient fun little diesel to play with.

I was under the impression that our diesel fuel emissions standards for light trucks and cars were higher than Europe, and that is why they stopped some of the diesels like the jeep from being sold here a few years ago. At about the same time that ULS diesel came out. This is the reason that more haven't ventured to bring a known good running diesel to the U.S. that is established in Europe.

I was always under the impression that Europe's emissions standards were higher?

They had ULS fuel WAY before it was even talked about here in the US.

When I was in Ireland, I just thought it was real cool when you saw a Toyota Corolla and it was diesel!! Everything is stick shift, everything is diesel, and everything is low horsepower.

For instance, when we had Lexus IS 250's, they had IS 200's

You are correct up until we implemented ULS diesel and I think at that point is when our EPA went overboard instead of just coming up to international standards. Par for the course for our EPA in current mindset. I may be wrong, but I read this somewhere back when Jeep dropped the diesel option, and others were asked about bringing similar cars here that they have in Europe.

Who would buy a 4.5 1/2 ton?
The thousands upon thousands of customs and border patrol tahoes and suburbans that are used around here. They love diesel 3/4 tons (dmax and strokers) but id guess that over half of their fleet is made up of tahoes. Those guys sit and idle all day. Think of how fast the gov would jump all over diesel tahoes for that huge fleet. Wouldnt just them as a customer be a big enough reason to build it?

The argument about the diesel excursion-
I understood that since epa figures were based on cars and suv's, and since there was no heavy duty column for heavy suvs like hd trucks (w/o mpg rating), the excursion was just placed in the same boat with the expedition. The big three are restricted on how crappy their overall mpg for their fleet can be. The v10 and v8 excursion was killing them. That heavy bastard would guzzle.

Yes, the diesel excursion was cool and not too many people bought them, but this was in 2000 to 2006 when (a) 7.3 was not noted for being the workhorse that it is now, and (b) the 6.0 stinks worse than a bag of assholes. Now people love diesels. Out here in west TX, I see hundreds and hundreds of diesel trucks. A lot of then are for work but many dont have a scratch in their beds and spend their time hauling kids around. Introduce a half ton truck, suburban, or tahoe with a diesel that can get 25+mpg and will last for 250k and youll have people lined up out the door for one. And if you are worried about price, obviously nobody cares when I see hundreds of $80k escalades, $50k suburbans, and $60k denali duramaxs running around.

Who would buy a 4.5 1/2 ton?
The thousands upon thousands of customs and border patrol tahoes and suburbans that are used around here. They love diesel 3/4 tons (dmax and strokers) but id guess that over half of their fleet is made up of tahoes. Those guys sit and idle all day. Think of how fast the gov would jump all over diesel tahoes for that huge fleet. Wouldnt just them as a customer be a big enough reason to build it?

.

Hybrid would be a better option if idling all day or any type of motor with start/stop. The 4.5 itself is not enough to reach the future fuel economy regs. The 4.5 is dead.

Hybrid would be a better option if idling all day or any type of motor with start/stop. The 4.5 itself is not enough to reach the future fuel economy regs. The 4.5 is dead.

How much gas does a 5.3 or 6.0 gas motor burn per hour? I know my 6.6 burns less than .4 gallons of diesel per hour idling. I know when idling 1-2 hours per tankful, my Tahoe's mileage goes way down.

when you idle a gas engine for long periods of time it can cause damage to the engine due to lack of lubrication unlike diesel fuel

Hybrid would be a better option if idling all day or any type of motor with start/stop. The 4.5 itself is not enough to reach the future fuel economy regs. The 4.5 is dead.


Haha! Could you picture the border patrol catching wets and drugs in a dinky hybrid? No, those boys need decent rigs, not powerwheels.

I wonder how many "wets and drugs" "those boys" will catch when their lovely 4.5 is in limp mode due to a clogged DPF from idling all day long. :rolleyes: That's about the dumbest reason for bringing the 4.5 to life that I have heard to date!

The Border Patrol station is about half a mile away from me. This small station has over 140 trucks at it. If half are tahoes and jeeps, the other 70 are either duramax or powerstrokes, the majority of which are '07+ (with dpfs). Id rather idle a diesel all day than a gasoline.
In a 100 mile radius there are about 6 BP stations with at least 200 vehicles based at them. Probably around 2500 bp vehicles and id guess around 1300 newer diesels.

When CBP buys a fleet they stop the plant for them.

I wish I had the cash to buy diesels like that :(

chev.

The government will most likely order or modify thier diesels since they exempt themselves from EPA standards alot, they do in the Hummvee

Blah, blah, blah, the fact is, unless diesel drops under regular gas and stays there, the 4.5 is not going to happen.

Berk, I dont know where you live buddy, but here in Omaha the Diesel was $3.09 and premium gas was $3.28 yesterday when I filled up. made me smile!

I think there is going be be a very very limited market for a 1/2 ton diesel truck.

To me, most of the new 1/2ton buyers today are buying them for cars more than trucks. The family hauler with a small boat and groceries, to which a 5.3L or even the smaller engines do fine. A 1/2ton isn't going to be able to compete with a 3/4 or 1ton it never will. The extra power of the diesel just plain isn't needed because the rest of the truck just isn't built to tow & haul. Throw an extra couple thousand at the price tag for the diesel truck and the people that would be looking at it will just spring for the 3/4ton option.

what about the people that need a little more out of their half ton but dont want to spend 50k on a 3/4 diesel or 40k on a gas 3/4 that gets shitty milege and takes away from their comfort of a soft ride?

i think the mini max in a half ton will fill the nich for people that haul often but not all the time and dont want a gas 3/4 that is always at the pump and doesnt want to spend the big bucks on a diesel.

just my .02

Berk, I dont know where you live buddy, but here in Omaha the Diesel was $3.09 and premium gas was $3.28 yesterday when I filled up. made me smile!
Premium? What about economy? Here in NY diesel is at leat $.30 a gallon more than the cheapest gas.

what about the people that need a little more out of their half ton but dont want to spend 50k on a 3/4 diesel or 40k on a gas 3/4 that gets shitty milege and takes away from their comfort of a soft ride?

i think the mini max in a half ton will fill the nich for people that haul often but not all the time and dont want a gas 3/4 that is always at the pump and doesnt want to spend the big bucks on a diesel.

just my .02

2 things.....

1. It won't ride nearly as nice as you think. They will have to stiffen the suspension to be able to have the ratings where they should be, to use the full potential of the diesel.

2. It sure as **** won't be cheap. I think you'll be surprised by the price if it ever does come to the market. You'll be lucky if it is 5-8k cheaper than a 3/4 diesel. And what do you get for that discount? Less power, less rating, etc.

The 1/2 - 3/4 gap is already filled with plenty of options, there is no room(or market for that matter) for a 1/2 ton diesel.

I wonder how many "wets and drugs" "those boys" will catch when their lovely 4.5 is in limp mode due to a clogged DPF from idling all day long. :rolleyes: That's about the dumbest reason for bringing the 4.5 to life that I have heard to date!

Even for current diesels with DPF's, there needs to be a way to light off a regen on demand, and while stationary, just like they do in the big rigs. This would eliminate the problem for those people that do tons of idling and city driving.

Even for current diesels with DPF's, there needs to be a way to light off a regen on demand, and while stationary, just like they do in the big rigs. This would eliminate the problem for those people that do tons of idling and city driving.

I agree......the current system for most people will work flawlessly. BUT, for those is special circumstances(only driving a few miles to work day in and day out), that would be a great feature.

Trying to put things into perspective here...

A 4.5l diesel option in a 1/2 ton would, in the eyes of the average person;
Cost more than a gas engine truck
Have better fuel economy (20-25%?)
Have a higher resale value
Have higher maintenance costs
Be loud, smokey, hard to start, and slow
Ride like a 1/2 ton
Last a long time

Almost everyone I know locally has a poor opinion of diesels, or a highly misinformed opinion of them. They really do not understand how its possible for a diesel to be fast at all. Don't understand how clean they burn, or how well they run in the cold. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. IF the average person was informed about diesels then I'm sure they would sell, BUT most people don't care or don't want to know about them period. Hard to sell a product the majority of people are not interested in.

Trying to put things into perspective here...

A 4.5l diesel option in a 1/2 ton would, in the eyes of the average person;
Cost more than a gas engine truck
Have better fuel economy (20-25%?)
Have a higher resale value
Have higher maintenance costs
Be loud, smokey, hard to start, and slow
Ride like a 1/2 ton
Last a long time

Almost everyone I know locally has a poor opinion of diesels, or a highly misinformed opinion of them. They really do not understand how its possible for a diesel to be fast at all. Don't understand how clean they burn, or how well they run in the cold. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. IF the average person was informed about diesels then I'm sure they would sell, BUT most people don't care or don't want to know about them period. Hard to sell a product the majority of people are not interested in.


That must be a regional thing. Here in Texas, it seems that everyone wants a diesel.

Trying to put things into perspective here...

A 4.5l diesel option in a 1/2 ton would, in the eyes of the average person;
Cost more than a gas engine truck
Have better fuel economy (20-25%?)
Have a higher resale value
Have higher maintenance costs
Be loud, smokey, hard to start, and slow
Ride like a 1/2 ton
Last a long time

Almost everyone I know locally has a poor opinion of diesels, or a highly misinformed opinion of them. They really do not understand how its possible for a diesel to be fast at all. Don't understand how clean they burn, or how well they run in the cold. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. IF the average person was informed about diesels then I'm sure they would sell, BUT most people don't care or don't want to know about them period. Hard to sell a product the majority of people are not interested in.

I agree 156%........

Opinions in MO have also been changing on diesels, as long as it's not a Ford 6.0
Nobody will even bid on one of them at the auctions for cheap.

I think the better opportunity for diesel here would be a compact diesel like a Hilux/Ranger/Colorado diesel.

I think the better opportunity for diesel here would be a compact diesel like a Hilux/Ranger/Colorado diesel.

Too bad the VW Amarok won't be coming to the US anytime soon. For a little commuter truck I think it is pretty nice. Can tow 6,000 lbs and get 34-37 mpg I've read in some other articles.

http://www.insideline.com/volkswagen/amarok/2010/2010-volkswagen-amarok-first-drive.html

Opinions in MO have also been changing on diesels, as long as it's not a Ford 6.0
Nobody will even bid on one of them at the auctions for cheap.

At my dads work they sell off trucks sometimes and recently a 2005 F-350 reg cab 4x4 with 6.0 work truck went for 6k with less than 150k on it. If that was a DMax or Cummins it would have been way more

I would have to agree with gallup, here in MO, it seems like more and more people are driving diesels, whether its a truck or a car. A lot more people are driving them. on the note of the half ton never being able to compete with a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton, we pulled gravel with our 94 suburban with a tbi 350 in it and has 316000 miles on it. The trailer grossed somethin like 23 ton, we had 80 psi in 10 ply trailer tires and they were almost flat. we hauled several loads like that, now the burb got 5 mpg and it was seven miles from the house to the gravel, but it did it. We then went and got my bosses 97 f350 7.3 powerstroke and pulled like 18 ton with it, and it was a dog. i think you under estimate half tons and over estimate 1 tons. we half everything from a half ton to a one ton in the drive way. IMO id rather use the half ton for the main reason that i do not have to go to the chiropractor every time i use it.