To keep another topic more focused, I'm trying to break off disscusion. Using my resident PITA staus I will try to bring over some of the relevent posts to here.........

Whats the best way to get extra air into your motor? Stocker, N2O, twins(using a stocker and not using a stocker, compond or not) big single, any combo of the above? I know rules dictate certian things but for the sake of this disscusion lets forget about that and just try to disscus all the ways of getting more o2 in(and maybe a bit of talk of getting spent gasses out)

Ready, set, GO!:D

Sorry to stray OT but.....

So from a strick drag racing, who cares about rules or EGT's or be able to brag about being drug free or all #2........why not use a smaller single and a snot load of N2O????? Only concern is going fast in a straight line......

Sorry to stray OT but.....

So from a strick drag racing, who cares about rules or EGT's or be able to brag about being drug free or all #2........why not use a smaller single and a snot load of N2O????? Only concern is going fast in a straight line......


Certainly you have a point. It is easier to bolt on the Nitrous system and go fast. I *myself* have always liked the Diesel only challenge, but I do like the Nitrous fun too. I used metric tons of it in my younger days.:ro)

Twins are a Nitrous of sort. Self filling though. Just drive and you have more air molecules on tap! A single charger with lots of Nitrous will be stressed pretty high though when compared.

It is all about preferences and what *you* feel happy with. I like singles and big Juice bottles too, but I like twins for everyday slightly more. Less EGT, less to worry about filling up. Longevity.:)

Don~

I like twins for everyday slightly more. Less EGT, less to worry about filling up. Longevity.:)

Don~

I agree 100%. But something no one has been willing to answer is what will give you a quicker ET or does it matter? Bigger single, bigger single + N2O, twins, twins + N2O, smaller single or a stocker with a crap load of N2O?

I'm not saying a stocker with a crapload of spray is the best....I'm just curious if you have the ability to make more or the same power with it as anything else?

Just a question since I duno

Sorry to hijack your thread rob :o:

So from a strick drag racing, who cares about rules or EGT's or be able to brag about being drug free or all #2........why not use a smaller single and a snot load of N2O????? Only concern is going fast in a straight line......

Rat, I'm not trying to be the fastest on #2. I don't really care, as long as I run fast, drugs or no drugs, makes no difference to me. After driving this set-up day to day on the street, I'm seeing many benefits. Less smoke, and most of all, N2O power all day long(Yea, I know you'd beat me w/stock turbo and #2 only, but we're talking lly here), I'd like to say lower EGT's, but I don't have a gauge installed yet. If I had the knowledge when I bought my truck, I'd a bought a LB7 and done what you guys have done, but I didn't. We're working with the tuning available and trying to get this thing tuned. It's a fun project, the lly is a bit(h to get to run fast.

Rob

I'm really not trying to make this a my set up is better than yours! Just im curious and every time I ask the basic question "is there a better way to add air other than a smaller single and a crapload of N2O" nobody wants to get into a disscusion?

I can really see the benifits of twins! Smoke is fun at first but it gets old QUICK! Even though the Duramaxs shown that they live fine with high EGT's I also must say that it dosnt sit well with me to see a guage in the red. If I wanted to tow at higher HP I would definatly see a BIG need for the twins. Not doubting thier effectivness, like I said my question is waaaaaay OT and nothing really to do with your truck at all :o:

Nothing has been proven in the real world to go faster than twins and big fuel in the Cummins world. The Duramx seems to really roll along with a large shot of Juice and its single. I would have to agree with you that the current way to go fast is lots of Juice in the MAX.

Technology is catching up though and we will see how it all shakes out.

Life is good!

Don~

I'm cool with everything. I learn more about this stuff after every post I read. Good stuff. I'm about as far from an expert on turbo diesels as possible. All I can do is post results that I've found out through driving.

If a guy/gal is interested in going fast at the strip only, then I'd say you could spend the money in other ways that would make you go faster than the set-up I have now. When better programming comes out(if ever) might be a different story.

I went 13.39 with stock turbo/pane and N20. I went 13.34 with twins and #2. I did have more fuel available running the twins than I did with N2O, so not a great comparison.

I drive on the street 95% and track 5%, it's sure alot nicer with running full power with this set-up than with stock charger. I'm not trying to change any minds, one way or the other.

Why is it faster though???? The reason why juice and a single is what shows the best times is becasue thus far thats what we have been using. I suppose the same could be said for the dodge guys. Most of them roll thier eyes at spray. Although currently the fastest duramax is just running a big single. Maybe I'll start a thread tomarrow to keep robs from getting away from itself:o: Off to the track right now though :cool:

ok, leme see if I fixed it.......should be in order now........

we talking super top secret stuff here or what?

I'd imagine that NO2 would add more air than twins would. Also the temp. difference with nitrous being added vs. the carried heat from 2 turbos in the air charge. Just some thoughts.


Believe me Im no expert with this stuff.

Nothing would beat twins if done right.

Nitrous with a single will only put so much volume of oxygen in the engine.

If comparing pressures are equal between a single and twins, then the two would be equal in power.

I dont believe twins put in any more oxygen at the same boost pressure and rpm than a single would. The main benifit to twins is more pressure, which equals more volume. A second benefit would be less turbo lag, which obviously helps overall.

So comparing, a single, with oxide at the same boost pressure as a set of twins with no oxide, I believe the single would be better. This is due to the oxide (33% oxygen versus 19-21% normal) and also the IC effect oxide has.

A single with oxide at say 30psi, versus a twin setup at 50, would be possibly comparable if you could flow oxide into the engine.

If you have twins doing more than 50, it would be really hard to get there with a single/oxide.

At a point you get limited on oxide flow, displacement of air by the oxide injection, etc. and would not be able to do what you could do with a set of twins.

Just my opinion and thoughts.

It's all a matter of mass flow and/or volume going into the engine as long as you could supply the appropriate amount of fuel.

And let's not forget that Twins do not add as much heat to the compressed air that a single would. (Adiabatic Efficiency)

Eric, clean out your inbox, I couldnt reply to your PM!

Good rightup Elowe, thanks.

Rob

Thanks Eric thats the kinda interesting stuff I wanted to hear! I was about to respond twins suck to see if I could get anyone to respond ):h

33% were do you get that figure from? What do you mean displacement of air? Wouldnt it be best I suppose in theory to be running 100% off the bottle and sucking no air from the atmosphere?

on a side note........Wonder what other gasses have been played with in a _____dioxide ect format???? more little o guys running around would be better if they would break apart when they were supposed to and not go nuclear in your motor

No lab rat experiments are on my mind BTW;) , not in my daily driver anyway):h

No lab rat experiments are on my mind BTW;) , not in my daily driver anyway):h

just as we figured..you got no cajones...):h

just as we figured..you got no cajones...):h:exactly: :funnypost :iamwithst :lol:

Rat Just got a smackdown!

Is anyone keeping score between Phil and Scott?

I find it rather disturbing that you have been thinking about my balls :uhoh2: Do I even want to know who else you have been disscusing my wrinkly krinkly bag of skin with?:rolleyes: probably not:eek: -:t

:Nothing_f

I find it rather disturbing that you have been thinking about my balls :uhoh2: Do I even want to know who else you have been disscusing my wrinkly krinkly bag of skin with?:rolleyes: probably not:eek: -:t

:Nothing_f
Got ring?? ):h

Now your asking me if I have a ring? What kind of......eeeew -:t ......never mind

CID, cleaned up.

Socaldieseltech, will call you tomorrow to get squared away.

Rat,

First off the flame disclaimer;

I do not claim to be an expert by any means in regards to oxide, or diesels, or anything else for that matter.

Sorry, I stand corrected, its more like 36% by weight.

"Nitrous oxide has this effect because it has a higher percentage of oxygen content than does the air in the atmosphere. Nitrous has 36% oxygen by weight and the atmosphere has 23%. Additionally, nitrous oxide is 50% more dense than air at the same pressure. Thus, a cubic foot of nitrous oxide contains 2.3 times as much oxygen as a cubic foot of air"

Yes, ideally it would be best to run 100% on oxide but unfortunatly that is not available yet (it's actually a nitrous tuners dream to be able to do this and many have tried and failed on ignition applications.)

To my knowledge, there is one person currently doing this on a snowmobile. Considering how a diesel works, I feel it is possible, and am working on some things, but have to crawl before I run!

Volume comes into play big time!!!

As for displacement, the nitrous displaces the air in the intake track, and therefore your somewhat limited to a certian extent.

In very, very simple terms, it kind of comes down to the simple orifice vs pressure vs volume.

Think of an engine as a variable orifice, you change the media's oxygen content by volume like in nitrous (20% vs 36%) for the same amount of air (CFM) going in, or increase the pressure going into the orifice as the case with twins, which increases the amount of air (CFM) going in.

Makes sense.....fun stuff!!!

I was also refering to with N2O it would be difficult to say you had a x% of ox in the cylinder, but now I see what you were saying

"Nitrous oxide has this effect because it has a higher percentage of oxygen content than does the air in the atmosphere. Nitrous has 36% oxygen by weight and the atmosphere has 23%. Additionally, nitrous oxide is 50% more dense than air at the same pressure. Thus, a cubic foot of nitrous oxide contains 2.3 times as much oxygen as a cubic foot of air"


Volume % O2 after decomposition is what you want to look at. The decomp reaction for N2O is:

2 N20 ==> 2 N2 + O2. 2 volumes of N2O become 2 volumes of N2 plus 1 volume of O2. You get a 50% volume expansion just from the decomp and then 33% O2 after decomp. As far as getting O2 into the engine, 2 volumes of N2O gives you 1 volume of O2 in the cylinder, so it's effectively 50% O2 after decomposition.

Alot of the energy from using N2O also comes from the decomp itself which is highly exothermic...heat is released even before the O2 oxidizes anything.

N2O power comes from three effects:

Volume expansion from the decomp
exotherm of decomp
oxidation of richer (in O2) mix

If you really want O2, look at Nitrogen tetroxide (N2O4). That's what they use as an oxidizer in hypergolic rocket motors. It's toxic though.

If you really want O2, look at Nitrogen tetroxide (N2O4). That's what they use as an oxidizer in hypergolic rocket motors. It's toxic though.

Who wants to be the guinee pig?):h

Great and interesting stuff!

The heat and expansion from the spray breaking down was never something I thought about. Another plus. Cools when it enters and expands when it breaks down plus it adds oxygen.

If you really want O2, look at Nitrogen tetroxide (N2O4). That's what they use as an oxidizer in hypergolic rocket motors. It's toxic though.


Lets do it, you round up the stuff, we'll install it on rats ride, and I'll film the whole event for our next of kin to see......:ro):grd:

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Volume % O2 after decomposition is what you want to look at. The decomp reaction for N2O is:

2 N20 ==> 2 N2 + O2. 2 volumes of N2O become 2 volumes of N2 plus 1 volume of O2. You get a 50% volume expansion just from the decomp and then 33% O2 after decomp. As far as getting O2 into the engine, 2 volumes of N2O gives you 1 volume of O2 in the cylinder, so it's effectively 50% O2 after decomposition.


No, 33% O2 66% N2 in a perfect world. It also generates NOx though. The ratio of NOx varies with pressure and heat at combustion. I don't know the ratios but do know it cuts into the released O2.

Alot of the energy from using N2O also comes from the decomp itself which is highly exothermic...heat is released even before the O2 oxidizes anything.

.

When released from a pressurized container, nitrous oxide drops to around minus 125 degrees, which can cool the overall intake charge by up to 75 degrees, resulting in even more horsepower.

While it is an exothermic reaction relative to it's inert state in the bottle it does not cause this reaction until it is chemically reacted upon by an OUTSIDE heat source and will NOT BURN in the absence of fuel.

Therefore the Rx is endothermic with an exothermic result under compression when mixed with fuel.




http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/n2o/n2oc.htm