Not sure what to think of this. I know some say Amsoil give higher cooper. I responded with the following:

If I understand, I should change the oil? Currently I have the Amsoil dual bypass system on this truck. I drained about a half quart out (using a fumoto valve) and then filled the bottle. I ran the truck home (about 30 miles towing about 4,000lbs) leaving it run at idle while I took the sample and it took maybe 5-10 mins for me to grab the sample bottle and open the valve. The silicon levels don't seem very high to cause any major wear, and the air filter is new (Donaldson powercore). I will check the intake system for other leaks. I was hoping to get more mileage out of the oil.

My goal was to run the oil about 20-25k per year. This motor has always been run with Syn oils. RP for a while, then Amsoil at around 40k. The bypass went on this year at around 65k. Comment would be welcome.

So how many miles does this oil have on it now- if I understand correctly it looks like 3,000? If that is correct something is terribly amiss.

I couldn't recall exactly when I put the bypass and the oil, but I figure it had no more then 5k.

Couple other things come to mind. Again I have the bypass. I've been reading threads with UOA's and my numbers look pretty average for Amsoil. Most had similar levels of cooper and lead. What I was thinking of doing is running a batch of dino oil and doing another UOA. I'm sure dnewton will smile.

My question is do I need to change both filters on the bypass? I tow almost all the time, light trailer about 4k or so. What mileage should I sample at next?

After that I can go back to Amsoil maybe and see what changes.

Couple other things come to mind. Again I have the bypass. I've been reading threads with UOA's and my numbers look pretty average for Amsoil. Most had similar levels of cooper and lead. What I was thinking of doing is running a batch of dino oil and doing another UOA. I'm sure dnewton will smile.

My question is do I need to change both filters on the bypass? I tow almost all the time, light trailer about 4k or so. What mileage should I sample at next?

After that I can go back to Amsoil maybe and see what changes.

Is it just me or is Amsoil causing higher than average wear in these engines? It seems like every time I see an Amsoil UOA the numbers always run higher than dino. I'm not saying that because I'm a dino user but it's something I've been noticing for quite some time.

Good idea on doing a run with dino to flush things out. But don't be surprised if you see promising results. :D My Fe numbers generally run in the low teens after + 15,000 miles of use on Delvac 1300S.

Is it just me or is Amsoil causing higher than average wear in these engines? It seems like every time I see an Amsoil UOA the numbers always run higher than dino. I'm not saying that because I'm a dino user but it's something I've been noticing for quite some time.

Good idea on doing a run with dino to flush things out. But don't be surprised if you see promising results. :D My Fe numbers generally run in the low teens after + 15,000 miles of use on Delvac 1300S.

It is not an Amsoil problem, my levels are fine. I have 20500 miles on the last sample.

After doing some math on the amount of fuel and the ballpark time frame based on when I purchase the bypass, I may have closer to 7k on the oil. That what I think I do a dino oil run. My only real question is should I change both filters or just the primary.

you should only need to change the primary.

Overall, the things such as contamination, vis, TBN, FP, Insolubles, etc all look fine. In that regard, everthing is "normal". Yes, the Si is a bit high, but not worth panicing over. Check your filter to make sure it's seated. Check your next UOA to see if the Si has come down. Should be OK.


However ...

Is it just me or is Amsoil causing higher than average wear in these engines? It seems like every time I see an Amsoil UOA the numbers always run higher than dino. I'm not saying that because I'm a dino user but it's something I've been noticing for quite some time.

Good idea on doing a run with dino to flush things out. But don't be surprised if you see promising results. :D My Fe numbers generally run in the low teens after + 15,000 miles of use on Delvac 1300S.


No - it's not just you.

It's really becoming commonplace to see premium PAO synthetics (Amsoil, RP, RL and such) spike the Cu, and sometimes Fe or Pb. I'm not convinced that it's real "wear", but we cannot say for sure one way or another because the readings are so incredibly high. One thing is clear; you've used Amsoil long enough (for the last 30k miles) that any "chemical reaction" should have run it's course by now.

Seems like I have to state this as a disclaimer every time I comment on a UOA. I DO NOT BLAME AMSOIL, OR RL, OR RP IN A SENSE THAT I THINK THEY ARE TERRIBLE FLUIDS, WHICH THEY ARE NOT. But what I see is a huge masking of "normal" numbers by these sky-high spikes in Cu. You simply have no idea of what is "normal" unless you go into the use of Amsoil with previous conditions known, so that mechanical issues can be ruled out.

If a person had several UOAs on dino oils and had good evidence that the engine was in good shape, and then switched to Amsoil and saw these elevated numbers, I'd say it would be OK to run a few cycles with the Amsoil and see where things level out. If the Cu spiked, and then dropped down and leveled off, you'd have a new "normal" Cu to track and develop a new range statstically.

But when you don't have historical evidence to know how the engine was running before that, then you have no sense of "normal" other than what BS tells us is normal, and those numbers are based upon oil at 6.6k mile intervals. In fact, IIRC after talking with them, BS does not seperate the use of synthetics from dino oils in their averages. All the data is run into averages for the engine type. So, statistically speaking, all these UOAs (such as this one) sent into BS with really high Cu readings are pulling the "universal average" Cu level up. If those readings were pulled out of the averages, then the "dino oil only" UOAs would likely even average LOWER Cu numbers than what the "universal average" already is!

I track all these UOAs in a statistical database. It's getting to the point where I'm going to have to pull all these Amsoil UOAs out and start a seperate file, because they are grossly skewing the data. I'll probably have to keep one set of data with, and one without, just to retain a sense of "normal" versus "affected" data. I have been keeping two records going; one with bypass and one without. Now I'm probably going to have to start sub-dividing both catagories yet again.

That is why I always encourage people to flush out the synthetics, develop a base line to assure the engine is in good shape, and then return to the synthetics if they choose.

The problem with really high Cu levels, even as a "chemical reaction" as many claim, is that a truely bad event (some type of damage to bearings, etc) will NEVER be seen in a UOA with levels like this. I've seen some UOAs where the Cu approached 1000ppm! For goodness sake; how can anyone expect to see any shift or trend in statistical chaos that large?

Further, I cannot explain (nor can anyone else for that matter) why Amsoil will spike some Dmax readings through the roof, and yet others seem to run "normal" (such as igo1320). There is ZERO logic to these UOAs at times. You've used Amsoil for the last 30k miles, and yet your Cu still has not settled down. If this were the claimed "chemical reaction due to changing to Amsoil" it should have been gone long ago. Yet, other people use Amsoil, and it never spikes, or does but settles quickly. Totally confusing. It gets frustrating to everyone when we can't reasonably explain the events. All we can say is "Try dino, let things settle, then consider going back".

I'm not saying that Amsoil won't protect the engine well; it typically will. I'm saying that using Amsoil, and seeing your Cu spike for several successive UOAs, does not allow for the proper use of the UOA because you cannot distinguish a possible problem from the total cacophony of crap flying around in the UOA.

You can continue to use Amsoil, and perhaps the Cu will eventually come down, perhaps it won't. The engine will likely be fine, but you'll never have any idea if that data is masking something more sinister.

What it all boils down to in the end is that a volume of metal is metal. Either it comes from erosion, corrosion, oxidation or friction. In our case I think the 1st two elements can be eliminated due to low fluid pressures, the absence of cavitation, and a neutral PH of fluids. The 3rd element (oxidation) which some refer to as leaching should only elevate ppm's temporarily. It's well known that copper will start to oxidize immediately when exposed to oxygen. In a matter of a couple of days unprotected copper (ie.shelf stored) will begin to discolor and start to form a green tinge of copper patina (oxide). This coating will eventually clean up and become protected by each of the two medias it comes in contact with. Once metals are protected the only thing remaining that will elevate numbers is a chemical reaction or friction. Either way, both are just as detrimental as the other.

As far as Amsoil and some of the other synthetics go their numbers are without a doubt trending higher than conventional oil in these trucks. (At least most of them) Are they causing metal loss at an alarming rate?... Probably not. I'm sure the engine will do just fine through it's useful life.

Other considerations: Is it possible that the solvency (chemical reaction) of synthetics may be causing some low level attacks on metals? It's hard to say but the metal has to be coming from somewhere. PPM's is a volume. It doesn't just appear from thin air.

I does make you wonder about using synthetics. My first UOA with Amsoil had a CU level of 30....a bit high but hopefully nothing to worry about. I only had 6500 miles on the test. I have installed a centrifuge so wondering what the levels will be at 10K...Of course Dnewton3 made a good point on another thread, that I could have high levels of wear, but the centrifuge will filter down to 1/10 of a micron, so I will be lead to believe everything is great....I'm quickly becoming a convert that oil is oil and I would be better off changing the frequency of changes with Dino oil...

I purchased some Delo 15w40. I guess my real question is cooper aside, would this oil have been good to run still?

You could have gone somewhat longer but silicon and iron was also becoming elevated with just 3K on the oil.

Delo 15w40 is an excellent choice.

I have ben running Amsoil for the past 265k miles, started when I had about 40k miles and I have never had a high copper reading. I have ran 25k with just changing the filters. Sample always comes back good.

I can say with certainty there is nothing wrong with the truck. I have always been crazy with maintenance. Also, there are no other issues with the truck. Like I said, I'll try this run of dino, and go from there.

I can say with certainty there is nothing wrong with the truck. I have always been crazy with maintenance. Also, there are no other issues with the truck. Like I said, I'll try this run of dino, and go from there.


Not to be an alarmist, but I don't see how you can say anything of the sort with certainty, unless you have done a tear-down and inspected all components and measured all clearances.

Look - UOAs are a very good way to check the continued viabiltity of the lube. UOAs give a DIRECT view of the lubricant health. But they are an INDIRECT view of the equipent health. We have to imply things, given particular imputs and conditions, to estimate the engine health. It's done all the time, and it's done with reasonable accuracy.

But I don't understand how you can say "with certainty" that nothing is wrong with your truck. You might have a bearing going bad, you may not; you really don't know.

The problem with this UOA, and all like it, is that the large quantity of Cu and other wear metals so greatly clouds the view of the wear that we cannot distinguish what is real, imagnined, and false.

Now, I agree that there is a high degree of likelyhood that there is nothing wrong with your engine. Statistically, very few Dmax engines fail due to mechanical reasons. But just because the engine hasn't seized does not automatically mean all is well.

This has become a topic about ruling out possibilities, and reviewing probabilities. I don't suspect there is anything truly wrong with the engine, but you won't know until you can get your wear metals down to "normal" levels.

And as a-bear correctly pointed out, at some point, the mere presence of Cu at such high levels can be detrimental. If these high Cu numbers were "normal" to the Dmax for all situations with all lubes, then this discussion would be meaningless; but it's NOT normal. The fact that some lubes create such massive shedding of Cu is a topic that cannot be ignored and just sluffed off as "well, I run Amsoil and nothing bad ever happened ..." That Cu came from somewhere it was intended to be, and has been forcefully removed via some mechanical or chemical means. And what further clouds the issue is the it does not happen to all Amsoil users (most, but not all).

One thing is for sure, you do not have a bearing going, if you did you would also have high tin, lead, and aluminium. I am not sure what caused the copper to be high. Iron (Fe) can be high if the truck sits for weeks at a time or if you take short trips and do not always warm the truck up fully (light rust forms), this is not a big deal especially if you have a bypass filter system because it will filter the oil to such a small micron level you will have no damage done. Like I said before if it was me I would warm the truck up with a 10 mile drive and take another sample, see what the results were especially if the method of sample collection is suspect. Have a good day, and good luck.

Like I said before if it was me I would warm the truck up with a 10 mile drive and take another sample, see what the results were especially if the method of sample collection is suspect. Have a good day, and good luck.

X2

It's always best to catch your sample when the oil is hot. Also I noticed you drained about a 1/2 qt with a Fumoto valve before catching your sample. If it were me I would go no less than a couple of quarts right after your engine is shut down. Also if you are going to use a Fumoto valve I would make sure the valve is free of road dust before drawing the sample or you may wind up with a high silicon reading.

My personal method is to use a dipstick tube pump with fresh tubing inserted to the same depth as the dipstick tip. I usually mark the tubing with tape and get everything ready and waiting. When I return from a decent length trip I catch my sample while the engine is HOT and RUNNING. I keep an extra bottle for a flush and discard it after filling. I then install the sample bottle and fill it. Not once in many years of sending in personal and industrial samples did I ever contaminate a sample. Cleanliness is important.

Not trying to knock Fumoto valves (I have one installed) but when using one it's very important to clean and flush them well before catching a sample. If done correctly you will be good to go.

PS: I hope all goes well with your next sample and like most others have already stated your numbers are absolutely no reason for alarm. Especially based on a single sample. Good luck...

I took another sample when changing the oil. I figure I'll send this one using the freebie from OA. Just to see. While you are correct, there is no way to know for sure, I am very confident there is nothing wrong with the truck. BTW, truck was fully warmed, ran about 30 miles, towing. Sat at idle for a few minutes while I grabbed a tool and the sample bottle and I took the sample running. Maybe I didn't let enough come out. We'll see what happens with this sample.

I also have some interesting numbers on my latest uoa. I have been using Rotella 5w-40 SYN in the truck since new and put a Amsoil by-pass on 10,000 miles ago,the last uoa was with 10k on the oil and by-pass.

I also have some interesting numbers on my latest uoa. I have been using Rotella 5w-40 SYN in the truck since new and put a Amsoil by-pass on 10,000 miles ago,the last uoa was with 10k on the oil and by-pass.

It seems all the companies must use the same line regarding copper in the system. They all seem to list turbo bearings as a possible cause....I thought the DMAX used ceramic bearings in their turbos??

After changing it, I sent a sample to OAI. The numbers came back close to the same, slightly less on the cooper and iron (114 and 21).

The funny thing is OAI said it was good to continue? I'm only at 70k on this batch of dino oil, so I've got some time before re sampling.

I'm giving my oil a few more months with my oil centrifuge. I'm wondering how my oil will test after going 7K without the centrifuge and maybe 5K with the oil centrifuge. I guess I'll find out in a few months

Well, here is the Delo before I changed it. When I changed the oil the last time (doing the dino flush) I did not change the by pass filter.

The first sample I think had more then 3k on it, but I really am not certain when I did the by pass system I did put it on last April, so I really don't think it had too many miles on it based on the milage I have put on since July.

The air filter was replaced around April as well, and I have checked it again, but have found no issues there. The tubing all looks well too.

Not sure where to go with this report. The engine has never been apart. I do run B5 fuel, not sure if that could cause the higher silicon reading. I get the iron, I don't drive it enough, but the cooper and silicon baffle me. Any insight is appreciated.

Have you ever used any oil or fuel additives, especially ones with Cu or esters?

The Cu is way high, and the Fe is a bit high.

I don't know what a "triple dog" is on the LBZ? Is that a tuner? Are you running a really agressive tune?

Bully Dog tuner, always on tow mode. Now oil additives, ever, used to run RP a long time ago.

No fuel additives since winter of 2010 in which case it was just Power Service.

Well - I'm a bit confounded.

Since the Cu was not a one-time event, we can presume it's real and not a lab error. Same goes for the Si.

I guess at this pace I'd just keep doing short, consisten OCIs with dino oil and see how well the stuff comes down. Hopefully it will drop with each successive UOA.

If not, then you've got a serious issue.

Copper is high....it's Amsoils fault! Oh wait, you did not run Amsoil......Never mind.

LOL.

On a more serious note, I would not worry and just keep doing what you are doing and if it doesn't get worse you will be fine.

Well - I'm a bit confounded.

Since the Cu was not a one-time event, we can presume it's real and not a lab error.

His copper is over 25% lower with 2x the distance on the Delo verses Amsoil while including flush metals. His iron is also well below the cautionary limit. My take is there is nothing wrong with his engine and his only course of action should be to continue to flush residual copper.



Copper is high....it's Amsoils fault! Oh wait, you did not run Amsoil.......Never mind.

See Above...
.

I agree that the trend is good.

If the last two UOAs with conventional oil were averaging at 116, that is 10x (TEN TIMES) higher than "normal". Imagine how high it might have been at some point from the use of Amsoil.

My statement of being confounded was a mistake; I was confusing this OP thread with another that I'd been reviewing.

This Cu events are leftover from the former use of Amsoil.

One question becomes this: is the excessive Cu causing a sympathetic spike in the Al? Only time will tell.

Lilweeds, please stay the current course and we'll see how well dino oil can do!

Of course when I refilled I did so with Amsoil.... Didn't stay the Dino course. Guess I should have.

I would not worry, I have run Amsoil all my trucks life and don't have a high CU problem. I find it humorous when as soon as a few folks on hear see a UOA with high CU they blame Amsoil, there have been plenty on here that have never used it and still seem to see high CU. My earlier post was meant tongue in cheek. I think your truck has no problem, be happy.

I run Rotella. Change the oil and filter about every 10K miles and don't worry about it. She'll run as long as she'll run and when she blow's she'll just do that. I've been driving for 60 years and have never had a engine entirely crap out. Simply don't think overkill and a bunch of mods are necessary to have long satisfactory service from a vehicle.