Hey guys,


Anyone try this set up with the Porkchop torsion lift? The technician I talked with said they will pick up my front end 2-3 inces and give my truck a better ride. If that's the case then why would people crank there keys way up and wear parts out and ruin there ride? This set up costs $650.00. The technician said that they have a setup for my 2004 HD DD 4x4! I'm curious if anyone has used this setup


http://www.tsliftkitstore.com/product_list.asp?id=1246


Thanks,


GregEdited by: jerzflies

Turning up the keys doesn't change the ride.


U are only repositioning or changing the index point on the bars.


They still are carrying the same weight thus have the same twist in the bars.


As for parts wear no matter if u turn them up or air them up u still are changing the angles from stock.


The air ride could give a better ride than stock but thats it.

ditto above

Looks cool...I'll say that.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

You just need a tank and some valves to make a low rider. I wonder if you could bounce a Dmax hard enough to get the tires off the ground.

This will impact your steering geometry and CV shaft angle which will dramatically increase the wear on your suspension. Lift kits essentially transfer the change to the drive shafts. That keeps the diff and suspension and steering pretty much on the original plane.

My 2 cents


Cranking up the torsion bars could have negative effects on your truck.


One is the fact that you are changing the ride travel of your suspension. You are increasing the amount of jounce and decreasing the amount of rebound. For instance if the wheels traveled up 100mm and down 100mm and you crank the bars to raise the front end the wheels can then travel up 150mm and down only 50mm. It is true that the amount of preload on the bars is the same, but increasing the amount of jounce travel will increase the amount of torsion the bars will see in jounce. When you force the bars to wind up farther they will push back harder. It takes about twice as much force to stretch a spring twice as far (hooke's law). So, if you hit a dip in the road your truck will have a tendency to want to launch the front end. Since you now only have 50mm of rebound travel before you hit the rubber stop, the front wheels can loose contact with the road.


Keep in mind also that your steering components were designed to operate smoothly and last at certain ride height. At the normal ride height the components are operating at low angles. By increasing the front-end height you are forcing your steering to operate at higher angles all the time. This will cause premature wear. This holds true for your halfshafts as well, they are designed to have low noise and vibes at the designed ride height. They will not last as long and possibly make noise if they operate at higher angles all the time.


I'm not saying that raisin her a bit is out of the question, just don’t crank it as far as she'll go or you'll be sorry later on down the road. If you ever load something real heavy in the bed you might be doin wheelies like a circus jeep. Mine is cranked a bit too; just don’t crank it all the way. If you go in for warranty work on your steering, shocks, or halfshafts and the Z height is out of spec………you know the rest.

Turning up the keys doesn't change the ride.
On my truck it certainly did.

The stock keys, when cranked, made the truck ride awful. The green keys changed all that. Now, I have the height I wanted AND the ride is still very good.

Mine rides great with the green keys too.. My dad's rides like crap with the stock keys and the bolts cranked.

a friend of mine has used it on a half ton and his seams to ride better. I also have mine turned up a bit. I have thought about doing it my self.

All the green keys do is reindex the torsion bar, same as turning them up, some people run out of threads before getting much lift so the green keys allow for that.


If u set the truck at the same height w/ the stock screws and the green keys w/ the same torsion bars what could change the ride????????


Of course if u are comparing the larger tires that went on after the green keys then u do have a better ride.





Wakeboarder has the key "seams to ride better".

I've heard that before Dmax Tim, and I have no idea.. But how's this for a comparison. My dad and I have identical trucks.. I swapped in the green keys and added 2" lift blocks to the rear, and put on the 315/70R17's. About two months later my dad cranked his torsion bars up, added 2" lift blocks to the rear, and put on the same 315/70R17's. We run the same air pressure in the tires, too, and mine rides way nicer than his does. They rode the same when they were stock, his got much worse on the front end, mine stayed the same except for the odd time you feel the suspension top out. My front end sits about 1" taller than his does, so you'd think that with the weight distribution HIS would ride better.. Since it has more weight transferred to the front end.


I'm not just saying that mine rides better because I like my truck better, he noticed it before I did. It's quite obvious driving them both. I dunno what the science is, but I ain't lying and anyone is welcome to come for a ride in both of our trucks if you don't believe me.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifEdited by: Camstyn

green keys only turn the bars.... no science required. It's not confusing and there is no smoke and mirrors. Turning the adjustments on the stock chops allow only so much... you know yourself all the green chops do is give you more turn. Again.... no rocket science. I would think if your's truly has a better ride, it's not because of the green chops themselves but some other reason.

camstyn.... you have the same model truck interior/seats?

Only differences are that his is red, mine is pewter, his interior is tan, mine is charcoal, I've got the steering wheel controls, his has cab marker lights, I've got carpet floor and his is vinyl, and mine has fog lights and tinted rear glass. Other than that they are completely identical, both reg. cab 4x4 LS dmax/6spd's.

I don't think your experience is the rule. Cranking the bars out of spec... especially with the addition of non standard keys cannot equate to a better ride in my opinion.

It's possible your T-bars are not the same.... maybe QC differences in torsion/hardness. Only thing I can think of. I do believe you, just trying to quantify

I would think if your's truly has a better ride, it's not because of the green chops themselves but some other reason.
I gotta disagree with ya on this one. With the stock keys cranked my truck rode pretty choppy. When I added the green keys I got more height and a better ride. That's on the same tires and shocks too.

I can't explain it either, but I know that's how it is.

I would think if your's truly has a better ride, it's not because of the green chops themselves but some other reason.
I gotta disagree with ya on this one. With the stock keys cranked my truck rode pretty choppy. When I added the green keys I got more height and a better ride. That's on the same tires and shocks too.

I can't explain it either, but I know that's how it is.


Placebo effect because you wallet is lighter maybe? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Here comes the fun police.


Have you ever noticed the sticker on the back of the torsion bar adjustment that explains how cranking you t-bars to far can cause a shock to break,come loose and disable your braking system? Speaking of shocks the guy above with a better ride than his father probally has better shocks. Even if they are both new and both factory. I bet the one set is already shot. Some factory shocks are bad when you drive them off the lot. Bye the way my truck drove better after I cranked the t-bars just 3/4". Stock keys. I hope all of you are gettting your trucks aligned after you play with your t-bar. Stock,green ,pork chop, steak,it don't matter you all need an alignment. Hey you 2 inchers how does it fill to have no downward travel?

Got the alignment done Bronco, as did my dad..


I'd follow your theory on the shocks being shot but his rode fine before the torsion bar keys were cranked up, just as good as mine did.


I can barely notice that I now have "no downward travel".. Are you sure you're not exaggerating? I've felt it top out lightly a few times but nothing major, mind you I go slow over the speed bumps/curbs and don't try to get air time with it off-road. BTW I measured from the center of the wheel straight up to the fender and I actually got 3" of lift on mine using the green keys. That's with the bolts being backed out farther than they were stock, too.


I've had mine on for 10k miles now and everything is tight, my shocks haven't broken or come loose and disabled my braking system. If it happens I'll be posting here right away and you can point and laugh and say I told you so, but so far so good, I don't see it happening.Edited by: Camstyn

First of all, I would never wish an accident apon someone or laugh when it happens. The rear shocks were impessive. Tons of travel in both directions. The fronts are another story. There is not much room for error. I know the IFS is a little different than a straight axel. The entire shock moves with the a-arm assmebly. That really dosn't require more travel. I just know the stock shocks didn't have much room for error. I do have a friend with a 1500 GMC 4x4. It had IFS. He put 3 inch blocks in the rear and cranked the keys in the front. He also replace the stock shocks with Ranchos. He cleared 33x12.5 BFG MT. on a 10 inch rim. He went to sell the truck at 90K probbaly much more due to the speedo being off. The buyer took it in for inspection before he signed the line. Brakes plus got 2200.00 to replace damn near every componet in the front end. Half shafts,boots you name it. I guess you just need to way that against the price of a real lift kit? I do appreciate thriftness and engunuaity but it has its limits and trade offs. The torsion bars do allow for some adjustment. That is why they are adjustable. Winches,snow plows alignments, prefered ride heights ect.ect. You have to be comfortable with your own mods. Peace be with you.

Try 2 1/2" front lift. I've got 6000 miles on my H2's with green keys and 2" blocks with no problems. I haven't had it aligned and it drives just fine. As long as it drives straight and handles good, which it does, I don't see the point on spending $50 to $80 to "align" a truck that drives straight? The tires aren't wearing funny. My fancy little shock spacers did the trick to keep the factory shocks from extending so far. Sitting over 4 inches taller it handles better than stock. Yes I can sleep at night.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif

Jeli you may not feel it but I bet your alignment is way off. They actually ran out of adjustment while realigning mine, so the caster (if I recall correctly) is off a hair but close enough to be sufficient.





BTW Bronco just to clarify I was posting lightly, I didn't take any offence to your post or mean to sound snippy in my response. Hard to see facial expressions/voice tone on these keyboards.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


I wonder how worn the front end would have been on your buddy's truck at 90k miles without the cranked t-bars.. Obviously cranking the t-bars will cause things to wear at an accelerated rate but I wonder how much. Seems like not bad mileage for a lifted truck but maybe it is bad, I dunno.

Jelli,


What did you use to space your front shocks? I only cranked my t-bars 3/4" but I felt I needed longer shocks. Edelbrock would not respond to my question about shock length, so I bought the shocks anyways. On install I felt they were a little short.

I don't see how the stock shocks would have length problems as long as your suspension is stock. Raising the front by adjusting the T-Bars does not increase suspension travel limits, it just re-positions the suspensions "static" height. With that done, you will have less down travel and more up travel but no increased travel. Stock length shocks are all that's needed. Green keys or no green keys, the upper and lower hard stops are still there. That's what protects the shocks from being overtraveled.

Now if you do a suspension lift, you are altering where the bottom of the shock mounts to where the top mounts, thus requiring a longer shock. Edited by: hoot

Hoot,


I will have to go look at my truck a little closer.

Hoot,


The part of your truck where the A-arm mounts to the chasis is a pivot point. The torsion bar being turned causes this pivot to move. There is no way the wheel can be forced down through the ground so the truck has to raise. When you raise the truck the lower A-arm stays in the same place in relation to the wheel and ground. The bottom of your shock stays in the exact same relation to the wheel. The upper end of your shock is mounted to the frame rail. This frame rail is raised when you crank on your t-bar. This causes the shock to be extended further at a static position. Now when you hit a pot hole and the A-arm lowers it strecthes the shock even further. If you over strech the shock, the shock will become the limiting factor, possibly breaking and lodging into an area you do not want it to, such as your brakes. I do not think the engineers would of placed a warning sticker on the back of the brace that goes inbetween your t-bars. GM dosn't waste money on good shocks why would they waste money on a warning sticker. I am still very interested in how Jeli relocated his stock shocks so they would not be over extended.

Looked for a pic of the shock extentions on the web site in that posters sig.





I am on the fence about the shocks being over extended. I would think that the front suspension has to have a bump stop or something else to be the limiting factor. The reason I say that is this; if the shock is the limiting factor, everytime the truck is on a lift the weight of the front a-arms, tires, hubs and so on would be hanging on it. I cannot believe that is the case. The suspension is still traveling the same path, with the same parts, just the beginning position(static height) has changed. Effectively putting the suspension closer to the upper limits. I am going to pull the truck in the shop on monday and get the forklift on the front end to see what is the limit. Here is my question, if the shock is indeed the limiting factor when I lift the front end and losen the shock, will the suspension travel further downward. I say no.





So I think that I have convinced myself that Hoot has the right perspective. I am going to try and prove myself right or wrong monday. I just replaced my shock with bilsteins, and tried to get longer shocks, but all the vendors said stock was enough.

Helms manual states that shocks are limiting factor and lower A arm should be supported whenever the shock is removed or damage may occur.

"So I think that I have convinced myself that Hoot has the right perspective."

It's not a perspective. It's mechanical fact.

This whole thing about pork chops and shock length is gettin old. You guys need to take a good long look at how independant torsion bar suspension is designed and how it works. Yes there are physical limits that limit upward and downward travel. Whether you crank up the bars or change the pork chops to do the same, that does nothing to change the upper and lower control arm geometry with respect to full travel envelope. ALL YOU ARE DOING IS CHANGING THE STATIC LEVEL... by that I mean your no-load height. The original STOCK travel limits DO NOT CHANGE. You simply put your suspension closer to the downward stop when you jack up the T-bars. That means there isn't a lot of downward travel left. The pork chops allow you to get it even closer to the downward limit. I just don't see how that can be a good thing. Lets not forgt the front differential is still up there in the same place but you are dropping the control arms causing the axle shafts and steering components to be in the downwardly angled position in normal driving conditions. The truck was not designed to be that way full time.

Now study what the better suspension lifts do. They drop the control arms AND drop the differential AND sterring gear to keep it at factory angles. BUT the old upper shock mount is still attached to the frame so longer shocks are required. Edited by: hoot

Hoot,


I agree with you about the benifits of a real suspension lift. The goal is to keep the factory geometry! Dropping the diff. or using differnet steering knuckels. I bet a guy witht he 3 inch t-bar lift could benifit from using the front cv axel extenders included in some suspension lift. This would atleast keep you from frying your cv joints/boots.


I am still not convinced about the shock length. I will go look even closer.

Cam, I agree my truck's alignment is probably out of spec. I just get a little tired once in a while of the internet society. Everyone spewing how you have to do this or have to do that. My truck should be aligned but I'm not in any great hurry since it drives straight. ps, you were my inspiration for getting H2's...thanks for making my wallet lighter!!!!!


Shock extensions - Look at my pics. I used two pieces of 1/2" aluminum plate for a total 1" spacer. DO NOT go over 1". Adding the spacer moves the lower mount outward closer to the wheel. The lower shock bolt has the bolt head towards the front of the truck. After the bolt had to be reversed because the axle shaft was in the way. The CV boot will hit the bolt if you go over 1". Someone else had made shock spacers before I did mine. After the lift the front end was too tight. It was most noticable on a downhill cloverleaf offramp. As I got into the corner the front would lean but the shocks were so tight the truck wouldn't settle into the corner and wobble through it. I wasn't going any faster than normal. Not safe at all. Once I put the spacers in the suspension felt close to normal and handles anything I can throw at it. I did this mod because I didn't have time of money to get longer shocks. More short term. In the end I'm pleased with the result and will continue to run them until my shocks wear out.


Hoot, I agree with your mechanical explination. I can also replace a lot of parts for the $2K+ I saved going this route.

I had to lengthen my front shocks just a bit for the upper control arm to touch the travel stop. I installed three washers (about 5/8" thick) between the piston rod and the lower washer of the isolation mount. Both the OEM shocks and the Bilstiens were too short to allow full travel. With the washers in place, the shocks had enough travel, and the control arms would hit the bump stop as they should. Without the spacers, the shocks would have taken a beating.

I went to carquest and we measured stock length shocks, then called rancho and had them find some 2 inch longer rsx shocks that mounted right. Before I put them on it would lift the inside wheel going around a corner enough to sqeal that tire. Now it rides better than stock and I am quite happy with it. Just a tad stiffer than a stock 3/4 ton.