I read in the newspaper today an article, Study finds ethanol not worth the energy.

So im reading through it and it had a paragraph on biodiesel.
A.P. Albany, New York
".....ethanol and biofuel plants as renewable energy resources, but a new study says the alternative fuels burn more energy than they produce."
"It takes 27 percent more energy to turn soybeans into biodiesel fuel and more then double the energy produced is needed to do the same to sunflower plants, the study found."
"....production in the United States does not benefit the nations energy security, its agriculture, the economy, or the enviroment."

Whats everyones thoughts on this?

I would like to read the published work before passing too much judgement on the study, but my gut feeling is it is typical junk science. The thing is, when you are doing things such as cost analysis, you can cook the numbers pretty much any way you want to make the end result come out the way you want. Would also be interesting to see where the funding came from for the Cornell and Berkely study. Never put too much faith in a study until you know where the money came from-that always makes a difference.

Probably worth mentioning that reporters can often skew research as well by taking out of context certain snippets and emphasizing only the part they want. Until I see the study published in a refereed journal, it is hard to say.

:knight:

One barrel of oil makes something like 4 barrels of biodiesel. One barrel of oil makes something like .9 or 1.2 barrels of ethanol.

Soybean biodiesel is nice, but it is clear that it will never have any real potential for petrol substitution. But it seems that people are forgeting about genetic engineering and such. When will monsanto give us the tennis ball sized soybean that you can squeeze oil out of?

There are tons of other ways to make biodiesel, and I would adventure to say that many of them are undiscovered. Algea, for one, shows good promise. http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

:knight:

One barrel of oil makes something like 4 barrels of biodiesel. One barrel of oil makes something like .9 or 1.2 barrels of ethanol.



How do you figure that?

I read it somewhere, cannot remember.

But I looked into it more, and biodiesel.org says that BD makes 3.2 BOE, and that may be on soybeans only....not necesarily the best yielding stock.

As I mentioned before, the problem is you can make the numbers come out any way you want them to, depending on the parameters you use. Take for instance the fact that the Cornell study counts the subsidies the government gives to the ethanol industry as a cost. Fair enough. But what about the subsidies that are already paid to farmers anyway? What if we just trade those for the ethanol subsidies? Would there be a net change? You could report the costs three different ways and be right.

The report seems to have overlooked the fact that for each gallon of finished petroleum product, an equivalent amount of energy was needed for production. Just ask any refinery worker about the amount of heat required to operate every production unit. Now, add in the electric energy to run the motors, heaters, and cooling units.
Unless there is positive pressure in the reservoir, energy is needed just to get the crude oil for processing.
I guess someone overlooked a few minor items. Like, lowering of air pollution when used as a 20% mix. The fact that if the fuel spills, it will just degrade on its own. The byproducts of production, once processed, can be used for other things.

manny, I read a similar article. Biodiesel yeilds around 3 units of energy for every unit of energy required to produce the fuel. Dino diesel is suppose to yield 30 units of energy for every unit of energy to produce. That is the big rub...the return on the energy is not nearly as good.

The falisy that I see is this. Biodiesel is using food crops to make the fuel, what about crops altered to increase the oil content specifically for biodiesel? That would increase the amount of fuel per unit of energy spent.

I just need to find a biodiesel outlet within a reasonable distance from my home/work.

MaxRock

I have not read the study but I believe that the conclusion is POS. Compare the amount of equipment (and engery for making it) for dino drilling, transportation (from other continents), and processing compared to that needed for planting, harvesting, etc., and processing SVO. The processing equipt for BD must be 1/10 of what is needed for dino. Ditto for processing energy.

As far as fuel energy, BD is only a little less than dino. The difference in economic and enviornmental impacts is WAY less.

... what about crops altered to increase the oil content specifically for biodiesel? That would increase the amount of fuel per unit of energy spent...MaxRock

Oh no, you are not saying we should use a GMO are you :eek: ? No, can't do that... (tongue firmly in cheek, by the way)

If you really want to make a tree-hugger squirm (I don't mean that necessarily as derogatory) bring the subject of using GMO-produced oil crops to replace petroleum. Talk about a rock and a hard place.

Big Petro dollars are everywhere.....we just need the facts.

I have not read the study but I believe that the conclusion is POS. Compare the amount of equipment (and engery for making it) for dino drilling, transportation (from other continents), and processing compared to that needed for planting, harvesting, etc., and processing SVO.

the facts are hard to come by. even when you have them sometimes its...facts by the way someone looked at them or understood them. i agree with above, even though I dont know alot about it i sounded like the conclusion was crap.

as far as compairing equipment, to add a part of the article..i believe it said some thing to the effect of, and this isnt a quote" our conclusion is better found, compaired to the previous ones, because we took into consideration the energy used for farm tractors and processing equipment"

I can get the real word by word later if wanted.

just really wanted to see some thoughts. I feel its just another ruse by the g-v-t and/or some big paying companys so we dont stray away from the oil herd

from what i have read, soy oil is a byproduct from making soymeal to export to japan. that would really mess up their numbers. money seems to change perspective of researchers, imagine that.

:knight:

....There are tons of other ways to make biodiesel, and I would adventure to say that many of them are undiscovered.... http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

.:funnypost

In your usual helpful manner......

If you knew much about this, youd discover that there is a new huge biodiesel plant going in in the SouthEast. Guess what???!!! They even use a new method of seperating the fat from the oil. WOW.

Why do you come here? You dont seem like the type of person that would be interested in biodiesel.