Hey all.

Went to the local GM dealer to eye up a an '11 dually. Talked to a limited knowledge sales guy.

Long story short, he said you have to use GM urea to maintain GM warranty on the truck.

Hope to call the service manager this coming week to see if this is twue.

GM stuff up here is around $40. Stuff at a local truck place is $13.99. Unsure if the volume is the same........

Hey all.

Went to the local GM dealer to eye up a an '11 dually. Talked to a limited knowledge sales guy.

Long story short, he said you have to use GM urea to maintain GM warranty on the truck.

Hope to call the service manager this coming week to see if this is twue.

GM stuff up here is around $40. Stuff at a local truck place is $13.99. Unsure if the volume is the same........

Stupid salesman!!!!

That's about like GM insisting you use Mobil oil or BP gas to maintain your warranty. No way for GM to verify what kind of urea is put in your LML. The amount of bad information out about urea is astonishing.

I have read something to the effect that if they require you use their brand to keep warranty, then they must buy it for you. Don't know how truthful it is.

Hey all.

Went to the local GM dealer to eye up a an '11 dually. Talked to a limited knowledge sales guy.

Long story short, he said you have to use GM urea to maintain GM warranty on the truck.

Hope to call the service manager this coming week to see if this is twue.

GM stuff up here is around $40. Stuff at a local truck place is $13.99. Unsure if the volume is the same........


Key there was you talked to a limited Knowledge sales guy..... and he proved just how limited his knowledge is :)

Proof of what you use would be in sales receipts. You have to prove you did everything right to get warranty.

As said, gonna look into it.

I dont know anything of the validity of that. If its true then I say NO FAIR!!!

I think if thats the case then they need to match other stuff on the market.

Thats probably why another brand is a different color.
Kind of like farm diesel.
Lee

Hey all.

Went to the local GM dealer to eye up a an '11 dually. Talked to a limited knowledge sales guy.

Long story short, he said you have to use GM urea to maintain GM warranty on the truck.

Hope to call the service manager this coming week to see if this is twue.

GM stuff up here is around $40. Stuff at a local truck place is $13.99. Unsure if the volume is the same........

"Local GM dealer"........PLEASE say in Hamilton(I'm a 1/2 hr. away), not Alberta?????:)

Aye, Alberta.

The urea for the new emissions systems is the same AUTOMOTIVE QUALITY urea that has been used for at least two decades on stationary diesel engines like those for backup emergency power at hospitals. It has also been used widely on diesel vehicles in Europe for several years. It is a mixture of 32.5% urea and 67.5% purified water and everybody's DEF is exactly the same because the emissions system controls are calibrated to handle that mixture.

As mentioned by at least one other poster, the salesman at your dealership demonstrated exactly how little he knows when he said that you had to use GM's DEF for warranty purposes. The Owners Manual, and all available GM information on line simply states that the DEF must meet GM specs, in the same way that brake fluid, power steering fluid, etc must meet GM specs.

This reminds me of the salesmen who were spreading misinformation about the DPF system on the 2007 through 2010s when they first came out. Salesmen all over the place were claiming that the DPF would be destroyed if you didn't use ULSD fuel. An absolute crock, completely untrue, as has been shown by the passage of time.

Hey all.

Went to the local GM dealer to eye up a an '11 dually. Talked to a limited knowledge sales guy.

Long story short, he said you have to use GM urea to maintain GM warranty on the truck.

Hope to call the service manager this coming week to see if this is twue.

GM stuff up here is around $40. Stuff at a local truck place is $13.99. Unsure if the volume is the same........

When, and if you go back to this dealer, tell the salesman that you would like to order 1000 Gallons of GM brand diesel fuel because you don't trust any other brand!

Oh yeah... don't forget to ask him for a left handed Crescent wrench and a sky-hook to go with it. Maybe some CD player fluid also, we don't want our Cd's to burn out too early...

Your tires are little low on air, might want to use some GM air too...

nowadays, nothing surprises me...but if that salesman is correct, then that's really going to surprise me!

beleive its magnuson-moss act, if they require you to use their product they have to supply it. if they require SAE or equal standard. if you run without it ecm will set fault and tattle to onstar if you have it. the M-M act came about from mfgr's denying warranty claims due to not using our product, when commercial product was equal to or superior sometimes. not using here in US would be same as tampering with emissions equipment, and thier going after owners out in cali.

absolutely right

When, and if you go back to this dealer, tell the salesman that you would like to order 1000 Gallons of GM brand diesel fuel because you don't trust any other brand!

Oh yeah... don't forget to ask him for a left handed Crescent wrench and a sky-hook to go with it. Maybe some CD player fluid also, we don't want our Cd's to burn out too early...

Your tires are little low on air, might want to use some GM air too...

nowadays, nothing surprises me...but if that salesman is correct, then that's really going to surprise me!

:hehe:

i went and looked at one and i was teaching the salesman more than what gm told him. i think i could have sold him the truck after we were done hahahahaha

Checked with the service manager at Ken Sargent Pontiac Buick GMC.

Was told to maintain warranty, you have to use a GM approved urea. Asked what the specs were and was told he didn't know, go talk to parts.

Did that.......

Parts couldn't give me any specs. They only had one bulletin in regards to this. Basically stated "must use GM approved stuff"

The nay sayers can check with their home dealership and maybe get some detailed answers.

Yes that's CORRECT, the urea must meet GM's specs, but again we have demonstrated how little the dealerships know - less than we do. As I've already posted, and you can easily check by doing a web search for yourself, ALL of the automotive grade urea on the shelves in USA and Canada is manufactured to the SAME specs because all of the the emissions systems are calibrated based on 32.5% urea. End of story.

P.S. One of the major automotive grade urea manufacturers is based in ALBERTA.

http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/MB10033.pdf

As Ted White mentioned, it all seems to be 32.5% urea and 67.5% deionized water.

As I live in a colder climate, the urea freezing will be a concern. Hafta see if their BS really works on cold truck in a cold climate.

My new job is bring ing in new Peterbuilts and Ford pick ups with this stuff.

Max Owner, there won't be a problem in your cold climate. These urea based emissions systems have been around and in practical use for a couple of decades. The BS will work.

The BS that I speciffically refer to is the heating system for the urea tank....

Last winter the gas regulator on my house Froze when it hit -43C. So I don't hold much hope for GM to get a genetically designed truck to do well up here.

My luck is the kind that no one wants......:(

Guess I voided my warranty tonight by adding 2.5 gallons of Peak "Blue DEF" that I bought from Flying J. GM-approved does not mean GM brand.

I realized that the BS system being referred to was the heated urea tank, but there's really only one question, is it really likely that GM engineers didn't think about what might happen in the frozen north ? It's not going to be a problem, in Death Valley or in frozen Alberta.

How much does the Urea tank hold and how much does it use? Dealer told me it is a 5 gallon tank which lasts 5,000 miles. Is that close to accurate?

Thanks!

According to GM it will last until an oil change.

The Cummins website has an article on it. They say that the Urea systems use from 1% to 3% of the amount of diesel burned depending on a variety of factors. The main one seems to be how the manufaturer calibrates the system. Cummins seems to think that 2% is the average.

So IF it uses 1% and gets 10MPG then a tank would last 5000 miles.
IF it uses 2% then a tank would only last 2500 miles.

The Dmax will likely do better MPGs than that, but I have no idea on the calibration.

This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard... Why not have a GM approved driver come with the truck also?

No, there should be no issue using any other DEF.

"Diesel Exhaust Fluid (GM Part No. 88862659, in Canada 88862660) or diesel exhaust fluid that meets ISO 22241-1 or displays the API Diesel Exhaust Fluid Certification Mark."

This is what I can find from GM.

That's what it says in the owners manual too. Jim.

How can GM say that the DEF will last until an oil change when it is the oil monitoring system that determines when an oil change takes place ?

Sounds like a dealer talking, a dealer who wants to make extra revenue by unnecessarily changing oil.

Typically the oil monitoring system will ask for an oil change between 8,500 miles and 12,000 miles, depending on the type of service.

Every second oil change I send an oil sample to Blackstone, usually around 9,000 miles when the oil monitor says change the oil. EVERY TIME, Blackstone has indicated at least 10% life left in the oil.

So the oil change interval has absolutely ZERO relationship to the usage of DEF.

Sorry.

How can GM say that the DEF will last until an oil change when it is the oil monitoring system that determines when an oil change takes place ?

Sounds like a dealer talking, a dealer who wants to make extra revenue by unnecessarily changing oil.

Typically the oil monitoring system will ask for an oil change between 8,500 miles and 12,000 miles, depending on the type of service.

Every second oil change I send an oil sample to Blackstone, usually around 9,000 miles when the oil monitor says change the oil. EVERY TIME, Blackstone has indicated at least 10% life left in the oil.

So the oil change interval has absolutely ZERO relationship to the usage of DEF.Sorry.

I probably said it wrong. The tank was sized so that it would likely need filling at oil change time. As you pointed out, the oil life can vary a lot, and so can the Urea usage. Probably not always in the same direction. Also everyones usage will likely be different for both oil and Urea as everyone subjects their trucks to different conditions.

At this point none of us can say for certain just how long the oil will last in the new motor OR how long the Urea will last either.

I realized that the BS system being referred to was the heated urea tank, but there's really only one question, is it really likely that GM engineers didn't think about what might happen in the frozen north ? It's not going to be a problem, in Death Valley or in frozen Alberta.

x2, for you guys who dont trust it, you REALLY think GM didnt take into account the wide range of climates the truck is going to be operated in, and design the system around it?? :rolleyes:

GM does cold-weather durability testing wayyyy up in the northern parts of canada. I forget what the name of the place is, but its pretty far north. They have a big test facility up there specifically for this reason...to test/make sure the trucks will perform as intended in real-world harsh winter conditions...

if you still dont beleive me, then look up in the "selling points/improved features of the LML duramax" document published by GM. It says something about how the glow plugs will heat up and be ready to start the engine in less than 3 seconds at -40*........so wouldnt that mean that GM has actually tested the trucks (and the urea system) in at least -40* temps??? ;)

ben

Here's an official GM video about DEF quality and requirements. It explains that you will receive warning lights and messages if you use bad quality DEF, but there is no restriction on the brand of DEF provided that it meets the API spec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfg7ZgcgdTo&feature=channel

So if you unfortunatly fill your tank with poor DEF is there a convenient drain?? I wonder if there will be a special turkey baster J-tool to test the DEF now also.

As the video you can use other than GM as long as it is the right one. Any truck stop Def is the correct one. Be warned, look at the one from GM and see storage temp, it shoud be stored in 68F temps and down to 25F, not stored in the pickup as I wanted to do as I make my travels in case something happens where I need to top off. I stopped by a truck stop today to see theres, it says to store at temps not to exceed 84F, (this was a Flying J and a Loves). So for now we can not leave a gallon or two in our trucks as backup. Uncle Sam is really getting to us, but I am still glad to have my new 2011 GMC 2500 HD.

MO

If you can't store it above 84F, how do they keep it below that temp while in the trucks tank? Solid state coolers like in the Coleman coolers?

Those storage temperatures are probably referring to longer term shelf life; clearly the temperature will go outside of that range in the tank under the pickup. Although it shouldn't affect most "normal" users, I wonder what the life of the DEF is once it is in the tank and exposed to wild temperature swings? Might be a problem for the little old lady who only drives here 3500 dually to church on Sundays :)

"Restricted to 55mph upon next restart" Hell, I've driven from Montana to Florida (2500 miles) before without ever shutting my truck off, wonder what would happen? LOL

Hey all.

Went to the local GM dealer to eye up a an '11 dually. Talked to a limited knowledge sales guy.

Long story short, he said you have to use GM urea to maintain GM warranty on the truck.

Hope to call the service manager this coming week to see if this is twue.

GM stuff up here is around $40. Stuff at a local truck place is $13.99. Unsure if the volume is the same........


Not that bad a price for GM DEF for me 88862659 12.50 a bottle. I just dont like the trucks price tag yet lol got to see what GMS is on one.

You just gotta love the EPA, tree huggers and uncle sam

I guess right about now the aftermarket is already planning a DEF delete...it they haven't already

You just gotta love the EPA, tree huggers and uncle sam

I guess right about now the aftermarket is already planning a DEF delete...it they haven't already

Once again, I must ask; whats the big problem with DEF.
Here's a product that that cleans the exhaust so well, that the trucks could be designed for huge increases in HP/TQ, AND increased gas mileage.

I am really trying to figure out why filling a DEF tank is so damn difficult that people think its not worth the benefits?????:banghead:

If DEF is @ $3/gal and it uses roughly 5 gal every 5,000 miles that is $300 in DEF fluid in 100,000 miles. If there is a delet, it better be rather cheap to make it worth it from a money standpoint.

If/when I get one of these new trucks I think the DEF system is going to stay unless they prove to be problematic. $15 every 4-5k miles is a small price to pay for the increased economy and lower nox levels. In my mind, the particulate filter does not make so much sense, but this DEF system does.

Once again, I must ask; whats the big problem with DEF.
Here's a product that that cleans the exhaust so well, that the trucks could be designed for huge increases in HP/TQ, AND increased gas mileage.

I am really trying to figure out why filling a DEF tank is so damn difficult that people think its not worth the benefits?????:banghead:

x2

Those temps are unrealistic. Are we to believe that dealers keep this stuff in air conditioned storage. What about the trucks that deliver it to dealers and truck stops are they cold storage 18 wheelers. Temps are guaranteed to exceed 84 degrees in the back of delivery trucks.

Once again, I must ask; whats the big problem with DEF.
Here's a product that that cleans the exhaust so well, that the trucks could be designed for huge increases in HP/TQ, AND increased gas mileage.

I am really trying to figure out why filling a DEF tank is so damn difficult that people think its not worth the benefits?????:banghead:

More crap to go wrong......just like the DPF and EGR why you think lots of guys delete that stuff and never look back just wait and see the headaches people will have with DEF system. Just wait until I get around to it my whole egr and egr cooler will be history

[quote=Primed2win;3944320]Once again, I must ask; whats the big problem with DEF.
Here's a product that that cleans the exhaust so well, that the trucks could be designed for huge increases in HP/TQ, AND increased gas mileage.

I am really trying to figure out why filling a DEF tank is so damn difficult that people think its not worth the benefits?????:banghead:[/QUOTe

More crap to go wrong......just like the DPF and EGR why you think lots of guys delete that stuff and never look back just wait and see the headaches people will have with DEF system. Just wait until I get around to it my whole egr and egr cooler will be history


Hmmmm, I have read countless posts of people trying to straighten out problems caused by various deletes.

Just sayin.

The urea based emissions technology for diesels is NOT NEW !!! It wasn't invented by the EPA, or GM, or Ford in the last few years. It has been around for decades on stationary large diesel installations like those used to drive emergency generators at hospitals, and it has been used for several years, on the roads, in Europe on diesel powered vehicles. Those of you who are having panic attacks over storage temperatures, shelf life, etc, are worrying way too much.

Those of you who are having panic attacks over storage temperatures, shelf life, etc, are worrying way too much.[/QUOTE]

Agreed -probably not an issue but when i read the storage temp i thought of the local chevy dealership and what area of air conditioned space they might use at the parts dept:eek:

On our hottest days I've never seen the GM thermometer in our parts department exceed 75 degrees

DEF has to be exposed to temperatures above 120 degs for lengthy periods before it begins to break down. The storage recommendations on the containers are the IDEAL situation for long term storage. Here's a link to detailed information about DEF and how it breaks down into ammonia over a long period of time:

http://www.truthaboutscr.com/what-is-def.aspx

The website contains a lot of information about the emissions system.

More crap to go wrong......just like the DPF and EGR why you think lots of guys delete that stuff and never look back just wait and see the headaches people will have with DEF system. Just wait until I get around to it my whole egr and egr cooler will be history

As a group modified trucks are far LESS relaible than trucks that are kept stock.
Anyone thinking they are gonna delete the DEF system and somehow have a more reliable less expensive truck is livin in la-la land.

Some people just have to bag on anything done in the name of "cleaner burning" even when it makes perfect sense.
"if its good for the environment, then it must be bad":wtf: