just got back on a mountain holiday with some freinds, we had a chance to compare mileage pulling very similar loads, on our lb7s, same day threw the mountains with the same va110 smartbox E tune, the only difference was i had lp, and a 4"exhaust, we had three summits to climb on this tank of fuel, when using lp, i had a remarkable hp and tq difference, with out lp we were very close, but i did have a slight advantage, on the last summit he called me when he had got to the top, and said his low fuel light had just came on, i thought he was bsing, i was still on 1/2 tank, we were not able to make it to the next town and had to add fuel from a jerry can, when we got to the pump he took 86liters and 20 liters to fill back up the jerry can for a total of 106, i then filled at the same pump and it took 61l, and 9 liters of lp for a total of 70 liters, my cost was a total of 60 dollars for lp and diesel and his was 96 dollars, thats a 36 dollar savings, on one tank of fuel:eek: with the same towing weight, and in his wifes own words she said that we almost lost them on the last summit, from the difference in towing tq, my egts were always in check, and never above 1400 even at the steppest part of the hill, i would highly recomend towing with this combination, my lp system is the powershot and my guess would be that this combination will offer close to 200additional hp(maybe closer to 175, will dyno soon) with gaubes of tq over stock (to much for stock tranny)
i also run a 295 tire sise as he had a 265, i run the small forklift tank and hide it in the toolbox, lp works very smothly with the va tune, :rant:

did you use the bug spray too?

How much propane did you burn? I would think it would equal out $$ wise.

i used 9 liters , or 5dollars and used in the total dollar allready, great savings;)

did use bug spray on a few hills, but needed much more water, for big hills,
drains the tank in just over two minutes



How much propane did you burn? I would think it would equal out $$ wise.

I think it goes for every pund of lp, it is equal to a 1/2 gallon worth of diesel. But the lp is cheeper at $.70 a pound vs. 2.50 a gallon.

What is the cheapest way to buy propane? Automotive or BBQ tanks or?

propane in western canada sells very close to 50 cents per liter, that is $1.90 per us gallon, so in this situation the truck used a total of 9 liters or 2.38 us gallons

max: i find that auto propane is much cheaper than standard lp bottle price, and seen this also when on holidays

1.35 per gal plus taxes, comes out to about 1.625 per gal here in so cal, for automotive.

fredw- what happened to the westers?

still using it, all is good, just wanted to try the same tune as my buddys to compare lp difference, westers looks real nice, pulled with it most of the way

Sounds like it worked really well. Nice to see you compare the same tunes and all so we can really see the difference with the propane.

Did you use the factory Powershot Calibration, or did you adjust it to suit your needs?

the main adj is set still from powershot, the fine adjustment is at 4.25 turns out no rattle of anykind with the va

around winter expect propane to go up. In cali diesel is around 3.14 and lp is 1.40 from what my father says. When I get back I will be purchasing the powershot 2000system.

I was considering adding LP to my truck strictly to offset the diesel consumption. It appears that most LP kits are designed for HP and performance, not fuel efficency.

SO, if you were not pulling, how much benefit is there to having LP installed? Most of my driving during the week is without a trailer and just to work and back, maybe 40 miles a day.

I just had Socaldieseltech install my Powershot 2000 system, and it's still in the factory settings. I think out of the box it's set to begin flowing propane at 5psi. If your not running hard, you can do a lot of driving and stay under 5psi, therefore you may want to adjust the propane onset down to 2-3psi to get the propane flowing more of the time (for mileage purposes).

Doug

Mine begins flowing at 1ps, so cruising on the freeway, it's normally at 1-3 psi on the flats.

Andrew, mine is set up to shove as much lp through it as possible. It begins delivering fuel at very light load, and increases as load comes up. I use 2 gals of lp to 1 gal diesel.

Andrew, mine is set up to shove as much lp through it as possible. It begins delivering fuel at very light load, and increases as load comes up. I use 2 gals of lp to 1 gal diesel.

With the configuration you mention what type of milage would you expect? I mainly use my truck for my slide in and towing my boat. If it was cost effective I would consider adding the lpg set up.........

So if LP is really .70cents a gallon, why arent more people doing this type of mod?

Probably due to initial upfront cost and because most people don't know about it. You need room for a propane tank plus you have to fill up both propane and diesel all the time.

I was reading through a couple different vendors website on their propane systems.

If propane really is about $.70/gallon and one can run a mixture as rich as 2 gallons of propane for every 1 gallon of diesel, and diesel is avg of $2.50 a gallon, that is a price different of $1.80/gallon. (The end result of it costing $1.30/gallon of "combined fuel")

Assuming one spent $1100 on a propane system (inc tank) It would take about 612 gallons of fuel (10,000 miles at 15 MPG) to break even on the addition of propane, not taking into count any MPG gains that can be seen by running propane.

So for me, I use about 30 gallons of diesel a week. It would take me about 20 weeks to pay for the propane system in savings.

The second benefit to some people about running propane is that one wouldnt need an aftermarket programmer if they just wanted some extra HP.

What I dont know is how one could control the level of HP they may see from running a diesel/propane mixture. I'd hate to have my edge on L3 and run propane on a stock tranny and find out that it is equivalent to running 150 HP through the Allison, when I only meant to run 60.

Did I do my math right?

I think propane is more like $1.25-$1.50 per gallon. Not sure how much cheaper it would be if you could get it bulk for home heating fuel.

I'll do some checking and find out what it is here in Ohio. I realize that on long trips, few of which I take, that it may be harder to find propane and fill up.

Fred

Is yours set for boost? I believe the towing application benefits from it more, because it dramtically lowers air charge temps, that is big mpg increase.

We are working on proving that increasing CAC function leads to similar improvements. In short, the propane appears to benefit economy because it is one of the only mods that cools, on a truck that runs too hot when working hard. WI also.

Most economy would maybe be over 10 psi boost, for more than 30 sec. That's when the CAC has heat quenched, and begins losing effectiveness.

Not sure why anyone would augment under 5 psi, just a waste of gas.

With the configuration you mention what type of milage would you expect? I mainly use my truck for my slide in and towing my boat. If it was cost effective I would consider adding the lpg set up.........

I get 42 mpg on diesel running 70 mph. (no trailer, just a camper shell) I get around 23 mpg on propane at the same time. I paid $1.23 for lp in June, and had to get 3000 gal to get that price. Remember that lp has only 91K btus/gal vs 140K for diesel, so you use more to do the same work.

It's as much about the temp of the charge, as it is the energy on the barge.

Liquid fuel has a nice residual drop in temp as it expands. i know that is helping.

"I get 42 mpg on diesel running 70 mph. (no trailer, just a camper shell)"

Fix your typo, unless it's a camper shell on a VW.

I am considering a msd propane sys. It is a liquid system so I believe it isn't operated from vaccume like the powershot. W/ this system I can run a propane tank like the ones in the fork lifts. Does the msd system "put out" more than the powershot? Is any one "better" than the other.
As soon as I get more info I will decide between the powershot 2000 and the MSD digital.
(thanks in advance)

here's an interesting thought on the msd system... because you do not need a vapor tank, the msd+tank(liquid) would cost about the same as the ps2k+tank(vapor). i'm sure msd did their research, but i'm interested in hearing about other's experience with the system before i make a decision. i like the idea that msd reads from the computer rather than just boost. it can accomodate for elevation, temperature, etc... anyone know if the msd plug-in can run in-line with juice/attitude?

The MSD system uses its own computer (ECU) for its operation. It does not use or tie into the factory unit (other than a few wire taps for TPS and RPM that are used for reference only).

I have/do run it with multiplel modules/programmers with no issues.

Also, if you wonder why I am the only one that posts anything in regards the MSD unit, its because I am not aware of anyone else on this board that has tried it.

If you are interested in someone elses opinion besides mine, in regards the MSD, I could track down a few others that do not visit the web much as they are on the road often.:)

If you are interested in someone elses opinion besides mine, in regards the MSD, I could track down a few others that do not visit the web much as they are on the road often.:)
Could you? I'm very curious about the MSD system now. :)

The big disadvantage of the vapor withdrawal system is that the fuel boils off in the tank. As this happens, the tank cools, lowering the pressure. In the winter, the pressure can get so low that you don't get any fuel delivery. At low consumption rates, this isn't a problem. When I started experimenting with lp on my truck, I did a vapor draw system. After a few hundred miles, my 35 gal tank was completely frosted and it was 85° outside. You definitely need a liquid withdraw system w/a vaporizer if you are going to use much lp.

The big disadvantage of the vapor withdrawal system is that the fuel boils off in the tank. As this happens, the tank cools, lowering the pressure. In the winter, the pressure can get so low that you don't get any fuel delivery. At low consumption rates, this isn't a problem. When I started experimenting with lp on my truck, I did a vapor draw system. After a few hundred miles, my 35 gal tank was completely frosted and it was 85° outside. You definitely need a liquid withdraw system w/a vaporizer if you are going to use much lp.
so what exactly is a liquid withdrawl system?

Just filled my tank up and below is what my invoice shows:
27.9 gallons
price/gal 1.25
prduct cost 34.88
LA CO tax 2.88
Fed Exc tax 3.79
State Exc tax 1.67
Invoice total 43.22

Basically 1.549 per gal after taxes.

got 1249 miles on that last fill

Elowe65,
Did you check your diesel mileage while you consumed that tank of lp? If so, what did you get?

Chaseum,
A liquid draw system pulls liquid from the tank. When you do this, you have to vaporize the gas before you regulate the pressure. So, there is a vaporizer/regulator to do this. It requires tying into the cooling system, usually by going in series w/the heater core. The fuel absorbs heat when it vaporizes, so it will freeze the regulator if you don't heat it. If you withdraw vapor from the tank, like a BBQ does, the vaporization takes place in the tank. Did you ever see a small tank sweat or frost after running something for a while? LP boils at -44° F, so it will really freeze things. All of the automotive lp systems are liquid systems because of the rate of fuel consumption. Very small engines can be vapor withdraw.

... The fuel absorbs heat when it vaporizes, so it will freeze the regulator if you don't heat it. If you withdraw vapor from the tank, like a BBQ does, the vaporization takes place in the tank. Did you ever see a small tank sweat or frost after running something for a while? LP boils at -44° F, so it will really freeze things. All of the automotive lp systems are liquid systems because of the rate of fuel consumption. Very small engines can be vapor withdraw.

If you can get more of that "chill" into the air charge line, less into the atmosphere, lowering intake temps makes for great EGT reduction.

Elowe65,
Did you check your diesel mileage while you consumed that tank of lp? If so, what did you get?

Diesel mileage (with the LP turned on set at 20%) for driving around town averages 18-19 depending on how I drive (I have a very heavy right foot) Thats with the old edge on 90hp and quad on 190hp (I haven't forgotten about you clyde:)).

Got 1107.5 indicated miles out of that fill. After the correction for the 315's that comes out to 1250 actual miles. That comes up to 44.8 mpg of LP. That's with the unit set to flow 20% (and with a couple of trips down the strip last week with it set to 100%). Tank is a 32 gallon mounted in the bed.

On this fill now, I have up'd the flow of LP to 80% and will leave it there to see what that will get me.

If you can get more of that "chill" into the air charge line, less into the atmosphere, lowering intake temps makes for great EGT reduction.

Plus the oxygenated fuel supplement.

What do you mean oxygenated? LP doesn't have oxygen in it like alcohol does.

I would like to make a heat exchanger using a heater core. It would go in after the intercooler. I would use a small circulator pump to move water in a loop from the exchanger to the vaporizer. It is 'free cold' that needs to be taken advantage of. It is very difficult to meter liquid propane into an engine. There are some systems for gassers that use multiport injectors, but it has to be computer controlled. It is much easier to change the state to a gas, then meter it in.

That was about the dumbest thing I have said in a long time. And you with the hydrocarbon chain avatar. Sure enough, just C3-H8, doh


Thanks for correcting me.

My experience so far has been the following: At 70 mph, my truck gets 19 mpg on straight diesel. Diesel has 140K btu/gallon, so that means that it takes almost 7400 btu/mile at that speed. When I add propane, it makes up some of those btus which takes less diesel. If you add the mpgs of diesel and lp together, it comes out about the same btus. For example, if I get 42 mpg on diesel, that is 3333 btu/mi. At the same time, I get something like 22 mpg on lp. At 91K btu/gal, that makes the lp btu/mi around 4035. 4035 + 3333 = 7368, which is pretty close to my original number. In other words, the lp doesn't give any magical free mileage. However, the extra power and other benefits makes it worth it in my opinion. It is difficult for me to check lp mileage, because I don't have a meter on my bulk tank. The only way I can do it is to fill a 10 lb bottle, weigh it before and after fill, and compute consumption that way.

Correct me if I'm wrong...
If you are maintaining the "same" amount of fuel consumption. And using a lot less #2 and a lot of cheaper LP, aren't you still accomplishing both of your goals? Lower fuel costs and more power.

Correct me if I'm wrong...
If you are maintaining the "same" amount of fuel consumption. And using a lot less #2 and a lot of cheaper LP, aren't you still accomplishing both of your goals? Lower fuel costs and more power.
That's exactly what I was thinking.

And thank you Merdeluca for the info. I am strongly leaning on the MSD system. I think I will put the tank in the bed first. When I get more $$$ I will worry about hiding the forklift style tank in a toolbox along w/ making a vaporizer.

I feel that I am accomplishing more than two goals. The oil stays really nice looking, I get better diesel range, more power, and quieter power. I do lose some bed space with my big tank, but I rarely need the whole bed anyway.

Bed? That's what a trailer is for. ;)


I feel that I am accomplishing more than two goals. The oil stays really nice looking, I get better diesel range, more power, and quieter power. I do lose some bed space with my big tank, but I rarely need the whole bed anyway.

About 8 years ago I did some volunteer work at a school near Mt. Rushmore. I had an Olds wagon running lp at the time. I had to pull a small enclosed trailer with tools and stuff, so I put a 100 gal lp tank in it. The car had a 50 gal tank. I ran a line up along the tongue and connected it to the car. I was able to go the whole way w/o filling up anywhere. The school bought lp really cheap, so I was able to gas up there for the return trip.

did some mileage gains the other day, from what i can tell i see a 2.8mpg average with lp on not pulling, pulling is very similar gains, or a bit more from the extra hp needed, at the current price of diesel compared to lp, this can make a difference in a hurry in the pocket book, also oil seams cleaner than before, keep you updated

Is this MSD the same as MSD Ignition?
Their installation instructions on their WEB site state that their product (PN2850) will raise EGT 's so a pyro is necessary.
I already have gauges etc., just don't want any higher EGT.
Have HJ/a trans etc.

My cost for a "Deluca" special. $442.00 :cool2:

Love this system for its simplicity and economic cost!
I have not gotten a chance to check fuel economy on a trip yet.

The only dissapointment, if you plan to do any WOT, the vapor line valve needs to be closed more then the normal setting (reduce lp) to keep the engine from predetonation.

I wouldn't mind picking up a "Deluca Special" ;)

Is this MSD the same as MSD Ignition?
Their installation instructions on their WEB site state that their product (PN2850) will raise EGT 's so a pyro is necessary.
I already have gauges etc., just don't want any higher EGT.
Have HJ/a trans etc.
Can you mix lp w/ h2ometh? I know you should not mix lp and N2o but what about h2oMeth? Would three fuels be too much for the engine or would the water-methanol and lp mix lower the egt's, make more power, and increase efficiency?

I thought it was ok to mix lp and nitrous

I know it is done but I thought it wasn't a good mixture for the engine. I could be wrong but I am still learning.

If by adding lp you get smoke, then adding nitrous should help. Nitrous isn't a fuel, it is an oxidizer. It is the same as adding more air. If you have smoke, you have too much fuel for what oxygen you have. So, by adding nitrous you effectively add more air which uses that extra fuel.

So I'm confused the MSD system needs a vaporizer or not?

If i buy one of these kits I don't want to have to rig up anything else. I hate when people sell you chit especially for $1000 or more, and you still have to "Make it work."

I just a kit that I can install and not really have to worry about it.

We really need to see both the Powershot and the MSD propane systems compared on a dyno. Does the powershot make more hp or can the MSD be adjusted for =or more?

PowerShot 2000 Propane System
The Powershot is an infinitely variable-stage vapor injection system.
It is controlled, activated and proportionate to the boost pressure of the engine. The Powershot comes on slow and steady and as the boost increases, so does the flow of propane. It is fully adjustable and can be customized for your specific application in minutes for towing, performance or mileage gains.

The easy-to-install Powershot system will safely and substantially increase horsepower (up to 100hp) and torque (up to 250 ft lbs).
This unit is a must for towing and all-around performance increases. Modest mileage gains are an added bonus.

The system installs in about two hours and requires no permanent modifications to the vehicle or engine. The quality of the components consist of: Custom LP regulators/Parker fittings, safety features such as custom auto/off rocker switches located inside the cab, and an automotive LP fuel lock-off solenoid valve located at the tank. All of the regulating is done at the tank eliminating the need for under hood installations and further enhancing safety concerns. The custom regulator maintains a constant tank pressure regardless of outside temperatures and delivers consistent usable power at all boost levels.

Optimizes engine performance by increasing throttle response, torque and horsepower.
Increases fuel mileage.
Improves towing capabilities.
Simple, easy installation and virtually no maintenance.
No Hobbs switches, converters, mixers or sensors to adjust or hassle with.
Makes your truck Fun to Drive
(Summary taken from DynamicDiesel.com)

MSD Propane injection
MSD’s all new Digital Propane Injection system is the safest propane system available. That’s because MSD uses a closed loop ECM that constantly monitors the engine parameters, such as propane vapor temperature, over-boost and of course rpm, before any propane is allowed to be added to the engine. If the engine management parameters are not met, no propane is used. Or, if you simply do not want to use the system at certain points, it can be disabled with the flip of a switch. This system also has the capabilities to data-log a number of engine parameters.

Each DPI system is programmed for each application so there are no jets to drill or external adjustments required. Supplied with mounting brackets and installation instructions.
On a 2003 Powerstroke the DPI™ System gained 76 hp and 150 lbft! Typical gains for the various kits average of 75 hp and 150 lb-ft of torque over the rpm range!
(Taken from MSD press release and product guide)

-sorry about the repeat of most of the information

Wow, so the Powershot actually provides up to 25% more horsepower and 60% more torque over the MSD system....:cool2:

Not sure how believeable either power statement is. MSD says typical gains are .... and PowerShot says up to .... They are probably both similar in delivered power, when compared at the same settings.

I'm still confused as far as what else is required to make it work?

Kappa, MSD and Powershot are complete kits, except for the tank. Both should provide the same power gains, as both are adjustable systems. Propane is propane, only the metering is different, one is electronically controlled, the other turbo boost controlled. Powershot is vapor, MSD is liquid and includes the vaporizer.

I found a place to sell the powershot w/tank for 1,030 shipped. Still trying to decide which way to go....

have you checked with SD? I think his are about that price, and the tanks are really nice looking.

I'm a little bit left in the dust with propane. Does the engine run strictly on propane or does in run on diesel too? And what does a kit cost to do the modification?

It runs on both #2 and LP. The % of the two varies according to how much LP you want to run.


I'm a little bit left in the dust with propane. Does the engine run strictly on propane or does in run on diesel too? And what does a kit cost to do the modification?

Well, yes and no. The engine never is actually running on propane. In fact, there is never really enough used, even at full boost, to start the engine. A small controlled amount of propane is all that is needed to burn the diesel fuel more completely. The result from this more complete burn is power and increased fuel economy. Others use it differently, but the concept behind propane fumigation is not to displace diesel fuel with propane. The term catalyst is used for lack of a better term, but it is not really a catalyst in the true sense of the word.

Propane is considered an accelerant when used to supplement diesel fuel. I don't understand what that means, because it is my understanding that the lp burns longer in the power stroke than diesel, lowering peak cylinder pressures and raising torque. That is also why it quiets the combustion at higher percentages of use. Powershotone is correct, you always must keep the lp mixture too lean to ignite, otherwise it will detonate during the compression stroke and cause bad things to happen. What I find so cool about the diesel using lp is that you don't have to worry about mixture ratio like you do on converted gassers. No carburetor is necessary, just put it in and keep it lean.

Thats a nice truck Kurt!

Thats a nice truck Kurt!

Thanks! Bought her brand new in 95, never seen the mud and she's clean as a whistle. Everyone's gotta have their weekend truck. :ro)