Sure would appreciate any advice here guys.

My 95 C3500 6.5 Turbo Diesel has been stranded up until today at the daycare and I just got the bad news at the dealership.

$2500 to $2600 to install a new injector pump.He said the pump was $1800 and labor was $800 and it needed "around $400 of computer work" he could not guarantee that would be the end of the bill until these first things were repaired before they could "dig deeper" (I think it is already getting "deep" enough! Yee ouch!).

I was told there was a recall on some of the pumps which is why I took it to a dealer (never normally use dealers for this reason,major mark-ups).

They said the recall was for some pump wiring and obviously didn't cover my problem.

What was the problems with the truck?
First it has the electronic accelerator (sorry but I don't know the official name).Several times this part has gone on the blink while I was driving leaving the motor running (at idle only) but making anything else impossible.I figured out if I would cut the ignition off and restart the engine it would work again for several weeks.

The truck has been losing power for years and I have zero idea why (first diesel I have owned) I have tried to have it repaired (power loss) but no one has been able to get the truck back to when it would have enough torque to even spin the dually wheels (2 wheel drive).

Monday I was in a huge hurry to pick up the kids and it was dumping black smoke out the exhaust under heavy acceleration and running pitiful.

Tuesday morning while driving in traffic it seemed to be losing power.I was going about 30mph and when I stepped on the gas it did not seem to gain any speed.At the next light the engine started to "surge" kind of like the feeling I have had in my past musclecars with a big cam.Rpms were going from 500 to 1000 back and forth.It still had enough left to limp it into the daycare parking lot.I put it in park and it continued to surge and the motor was visiably rocking in its mounts.
The tow truck driver today tried to "reset the computer" by turning the drivers door lock cylinder switch back and forth several times then told me to go drive it as it did sound a little better (not as harsh a lope but rpms were down) anyhow it would go no where.

So has anyone had a similar experience?Or have any ideas.Am I getting taken to the cleaners at the dealership?Is this why the truck has been losing power for so long? BTW I recently replaced the fuel filter (intake side) and the tank was at 3/4 full.

Hopefully someone can help because our little family business cannot afford 3 grand right now for repairs and it is all I have to drive.

Any help is greatly appreciated.One of my old drag racing buds who has a shop now said he could get me a rebuilt injector pump for $750 and another $350 to install which sounds ALOT better than the dealership but do you think this is the right dianosis before I go charge card a pump?

Thanks in advance for any help.


Best Regards,

Fritz

Forgot to add trucks mileage.It has 124,000 on it .

See if your buddy can pull any codes off the obd plug. Go from there. Sounds like your computer is shot. I'd call around for some pricing and start there since that controls everything. If the computer is bad then it is not sending the proper info to all of the moving parts i.e. injector pump etc. Good luck
Shawn

Ok, There is a " warranty extension " on the injection pumps 11 years, 120k miles, from date truck was first placed in service as new. You may be out on miles, but you might could find a dealer that might "good will" the pump ( not likely )

That being said, the injection pump NEW from GM ( In MY experiance ) runs about $1600, then 5-6 hours for install depending on shop. You'll also want to replace fuel filter, have them clean the filter cup and for good measure, replace the lift pump if it hasn't been replaced recently.

$750 for a rebuilt pump ain't bad, cheaper than I can have it done here local.

Now, from you description, sounds like the vacuum pump/wastegate solinoid could also be an issue. ( vac pump work the turbo wastegate diaphram, the solinoid turns the vacuum on and off) if this isn't working properly, you'll have no boost, no power and black smoke.

Not a 6.5 expert, just some of my experiances with said issues.

Kevin

stage III call Northern Diesel in Utica MI , I had them do a exchage (core) the injector pump is not that hard to do if you just fallow directions well, get a haynes manual, I did mine

Seems way high....I'd take from the stealers to a private shop....check the private shop first for estimate:D

Thanks for all the suggestions fellas.

To say I am no expert on diesels is a "slight" understatement.I do have a pretty good mechanical apptitude so I am reading all your suggestions very closely and trying to follow it through what I do know on gas motors.

One thing I do understand is to get it OUT of that dealership.I picked the pump up yesterday, it was actually $875 but still cheaper than the dealership (rebuilt of course).My buddy said they would install it for $350
($60 an hour verses $100 at the Stealership and my buddy and all his mechanics were from this dealership but all left at the same time to open their own place and have been doing good for many years).

I'll ask him to check the other items that were suggested also.The dealership did mention it needs $400 minimum of computer work and thats all they could tell until the pump was replaced:rolleyes: .So hopefully the computer isn't shot but guess I won't know till I know, ya know?

"C.A.P." Thanks for the vote of confidence on installing the pump myself but after seeing that bad boy the thought of installing it myself keeps generating the same picture in my mind (see attached photo please):h )

Been laying awake tonight (see pic) being ill at the folks at AAA and the Plus membership I needed to buy because of the size of my truck.

They won't send a tow truck to the dealership without my going there in case there is another $20 charge for the flat bed I am requesting:mad:

I told them the other day when it was towed to the dealership 5 times to send a roll back and sure enough here came the standard tow truck that looked like a Volkswagon next to my truck.Then the driver got an attitude (he obviously made the decision himself to show up with that instead of what I requested).After I showed him my front air dam he couldn't pull from and the condition of my rear bumper he finally called what I had originally specified.

So instead of one hour it was over 2. And now I am going through it again to get the truck pulled home:rant:

Almost enough to drive a man to drink (or at least his best friend ha ha)

Getting a little confused now, I had the dually pulled home yesterday and went out to listen to it last evening.

Started out surging but not as bad as previously then the idle went back to normal (had been idling much lower the last time I ran it before the tow truck hauled it off,this was also after the tow truck driver "reset the computer" ) anyhow yesterday evening it started up skipped a little on idle, then idle went up to normal and when I throttled the motor up it didn't stumble or fall off like it did the other day, actually sounded good.I was tempted to try and drive it around the block but didn't feel like pushing the beast if it broke down(ha ha).

Starting to wonder about the computer like Shawn suggested the other day.I sure don't want to install that injector pump if it isn't needed.

Anyone know how much a computer runs (ballpark?) in case I need that?

Thanks again for the help guys!

I'm going to wait till the end of next week to send the truck in and won't be around the computer for awhile either but maybe someone will have some other ideas then also.

I'm completely thrown off by the 'around $400 of computer work' line they gave you.
Its not like the Dealership is going to pull your PCM and fix it, they either replace the PROM or replace the whole thing.

Do the paperclip trick on the OBD connector to pull the codes, that will help up A LOT!
(Its the two pins in the upper right hand corner of the plug)

Sounds more like an injection pump problem than a PCM problem, Failing PMDs can sometimes cause the Accelerator Pedal Position sensor to flake out like you describe.

You gotta pull the codes and check supply pressure, vacuum pump, WG solenoid, air filter etc. or you might end up spending a lotta money on the wrong stuff.

Make sure you have the right pump number. If it's a 94, 3500, it may not be the 5521, TDG can clue you in on that.

I was wondering bout the lift pump, PMD, vacuum pump, and WG solenoid myself. Where are you at Stage III? Someone might be close enuff to help you out if they just knew it.

stageIII:

welcome to the club! I think I'm not alone in working from the assumption that the knowledge is out there for me to keep my 6.5 running better and cheaper than
the stealership. If you count backwards from the $3k the dealer is asking, you'll
see the risk of a DIY mistake is well worth taking.
A couple of things you can look into, to narrow down the problem:

Check fuel flow and quality. Run a hose from the front petcock to a clear drink bottle.
Should fill 8 oz in less than 30 seconds. If there's any water layer at all, keep taking
samples off. You can decant the good fuel back to the tank. Change fuel filter if you
can't remember the last change. If the fuel flow is weak, then test/replace the lift
pump and/or oil pressure switch before touching the ipump. Good news: your problem
is under $100.

Test the wastgate actuator, solenoid, vacuum. The solenoid and vacuum pumps do fail.
Mine is intermittant, and I'm working toward the "turbomaster" to bypass those shenanigans. Again good news, this problem is under $100 (turbomaster) or under
$300 (vacuum pump)

re fuel pump vs computer: Your 1994 has a rev #5068 injection pump, which is
for some reasons is quite different from the later pumps on 95-2000 engines.
The later pumps are accompanied by a revision in the computer prom, which can
be swapped out in 30 minutes. The overall computer does not need replacement.

If you didn't specifically ask for a 1994 ipump, you got a later one, so you'd need
the prom chip.
Check with the shop you bought it from, or try kennedydiesel.com.
Its worth getting the newer rev pump, and newer rev prom for long term reliability.


I recently purchased a brandy-new ds4 off ebay for $720, delivered, because one
of these years, I'm really going to need it, and its peace of mind to already have it
waiting on the shelf.

skk

I have not experienced it yet, but do you guys think it could be his PMD?

Sincerely,

Rob :)

PMD will *usually* just die or skip intermittently, and on the second Tuesday of the week it may even throw a code. Black smoke and surging, sounds more fuel system related.

StageIII - have you gotten any codes off of the computer yet? How 'bout your air filter. Air filters are way, way more critical than the gassers. Lots of air goes zinging through these engines.

Howdy fellas,

Sorry I couldn't respond but my wife and I took a much needed vacation (after a year of fighting cancer no less!).

We had a great time.

Anyhow I have not had a chance to do the paperclip method for the codes.I'll see if I can do that this week-end if I understand the directions ya'll were kind enough to share.

I live near Charlotte NC in case I might totally luck out and have someone nearby that knows how to figure this puppy out (I'm even having troubles with some of the abbreviations mentioned:o: ).

I'll try and get ya'll some more info once I read through your suggestion again carefully.

Thanks again guys.

Fritz out

There was a recall that year on the pumps not just wiring as they told you.GM warranties them for 193000 kilometers(I think thats is around 120000 miles).If you are under or near that mileage GM will replace the pump at no charge!!I own a 1995 chevy with a 6.5 turbo.Mine surges just like yours.White smoke (unburnt diesel)coming out of the tail pipe.I unpluged the coolant sensor and it runs alot better.Monday I am taking it in to GM for a warranty pump.

First of all, do have the codes read. Don't start with replacing one of the most expensive parts before making sure that that is actually required! It can be just a broken wire causing your problems.

You can reset the computer by taking off the battery cables and then turning on the headlight (to drain all remaining current). Try that first, and if the problems persist, have the codes read and go from there.

Ok, now that my wife has completely wore me out doing chores I am about ready for a cool brewski and some shade tree mechanic work:exactly:

Can someone please walk me through the OBD connector paperclip procedure, or attach a link of it being explained please?

I am guessing it is a large harness under the dash near the drivers side?

Thanks again!

Here ya go, its in the Faq's


http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16399

SIII take a minute to update your sig per welcome sticky with truck details so we don't have to keep going back to 1st thread to see what flavor of truck we are talking about.

Testing (Want to see if my truck info was added)

Thanks CanadianRigger (http://dieselplace.com/forum/member.php?u=5870)

I figured it must have been around here somewhere.

Well, I will probably get home (IF.. I get home ha ha) and see e mails saying "Don't do it!" but I have to drive the truck today to help deliver our 3 children to three different places (I only have to do one on the way to work).

I went out this morning as well as the other day and the truck sounds exactly the way it always has (when running properly that is).

I am no diesel expert by any means but it must be pumping fuel again.
Maybe it is on the ragged edge, maybe it is a computer problem, I don't know.

The further it gets me this moring the closer it will be for the tow truck also (the repair shop is near my work).

I'll let you know how it goes.I did print off the codes and if things are not to wild at work today since I have been on vacation (already know the answer to that though ugh!) anyhow if I have time I will pull those codes as I am very curious now that I know how to read them (Thanks again!).

Well, wish me luck because I'l probably need it

Welllllllllllllllllllllllll. that was the quickest I have left for work and gotten home in a good while:badidea:

Yep, as I am sure several of you thought I didn't quite make it.Truck ran good for the first 1/4 mile and then got progressively worse.So I turned it around and limped home.

Yeh, after a 1/4 it started losing power (ie no fuel) then when I stopped at the end of the street it started bucking and acting like it was going to stall.I put it in neutral to stop the bucking, and while I was in neural tried to give it fuel.It sputtered around eventually huffing out white smoke.It would rev a little bit (2000 to 2500RPM's max) but then stumble back down to around 700 RPM's. Check engine light came on a few time during my "trip".

I am not sure if the electronic accelerator (yeh, one of those types) was screwing up again when I was trying to accelerate back home or not.I would keep my foot on the pedal about a 1/4th of the way down and eventually the truck would pull enough to allow me to get enough speed to make turns and keep going forward.It definitely did not like when ever I came to a complete stop because it seemed to take for ever to "build up" enough power or fuel to go forward.

Anyhow, I am sitting here waiting on a tow truck now.I told my buddy with the shop I could do the paperclip test but of course he just told me he had a machine for that (still would have liked to have seen it myself but didn't have time to try).

Well, guess I'll know something today.

For now I have to go try and get my 60 Buick running so I can at least get to work.I was going to ride with the tow truck driver but his wife said "That would be tight"

The drivers takes his wife AND his dog with him on all his tow jobs.

Glad I asked if it would be a problem having him drop me off on the way.

Yes, it isssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss Monday for sure:help:

Well, the truck is supposed to be ready today so I'll give you the whole run down this evening.

My 60 Buick Convertible I got out of mothballs while the truck was being repaired is still in the shop from the other day.

The AAA driver who took 2 1/2 hours to show up the other night after my generator almost caught fire on it(I pulled the battery cables in time:eek: ) anyhow the driver dragged the exhaust pipes (on and off the flatbed) and I guess the bottom end (car is real low) and got my original transmission gushing trans fluid.So in addition to the truck the Buick will be,... 2 rebuilt generators,two regulators, a new battery and gen belt and what ever theCensored the driver did to the trans.Ain't life grand? Maybe 2 "grand" ha ha.

Well, at least they both should be in good shape when I get them back.
I'll let you know whos guesses were right tonight on the truck solution.Thanks again for your help guys!

Fritz out

And the answer is................................................ ............

"YOUR TRUCK STILL ISN"T READY MISTER FRITZ"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is right over a week and I STILL don't have my truck back!Censored Censored Censored

I am not a happy camper at all, to say the least.

First I was told it was the injector pump and also the lift pump, which was fine because it was what we were discussing here and I was prepared for that.

Here is what I wasn't "prepared" for after excuses of "we are short handed" "the mechanic will stay tonight until it is done" etc etc etc
I finally get some of the truth.

The mechanic (and I quote) "dropped a bolt into the timing chain" "As a result we are replacing the gears and chain at no expense to you".
I wasn't happy because it was another delay but at least they weren't charging us.
Next the mechanic laid out of work and one of the owners was going to have to find time to finish the job (read more delays).I was guaranteed 10am today I'd have it back. I called them at 1PM "John we found another problem one of the rockers on number 8 cylinder is broken and Chevy doesn't have it in stock locally and it is being shipped in".

At this point he offered me a rental and apologized for everything which was cool but I WANT MY Censored truck back! My wife and I car pooled for several days between both our jobs and picking all 3 children up in 3 different places till we about lost our minds and I was lent a Surburban with 350,000 miles on it and no a/c but at lest it runs good.I still cannot haul equipment in it though.

Oh well, just wanted to update ya'll so you didn't thing I was just chugging along on my merry way in my dually and forgot to give ya'll the answers to the symptoms.

And my 60 Buick that the tow company screwed all up? Let's not even go there (it is still broken also!).

Oh well I'm sure there are worse things but I'd sure like my truck back:help:

Ouch, I don't even know what to say to that man....

Crossin my fingers for ya!

I know what ya mean:(

My big question now is what "really happened" to the motor and is it going to be ok when I get it back or is the cam going to be wiped out, or something else? With replacing the timing chain and gears and a busted rocker it almost sounds like it simulated a motor jumping timing to me

I am going to try and get the whole story today if they will tell me.They said the mechanic had been fired for laying out of work.I wonder if what he did to my truck had anything to do with it also?

Well, they promised it back again yesterday so I could go out of town today.No truck,no phone call explaining why.

They npromised it back yesterday when I called to ask for the "whole story" on what had happened and whether there might be additional damage that might not show up till later (wiped out cam,bent push rods etc).

Was told "No it was just a bolt down the front of the timing cover and they would "check everything else out".Said they had the rocker and would finish but maybe they did find something else and are taking care of it.

I'll just give them more time to make it right.I haven't blown up with them because that usually doesn't help. They were nice enough to offer a rental truck but I declined as I know they are taking a bath on all the labor and extra parts.

Oh wellllllllllllll.........................

SIII,
I know what means about not blowing up at them, because I belive it's really doesn't help either. However I would have at least taken the rental from them... Why not By my thinking the more money they have to spent parts, labor, and rental it may help get your truck back to you sooner. See if they don't work on your truck today their really not losing any money, so by taking the rental they pay every day for not working on your truck in rental cost. Just my thoughts...

I may start a new thread as long as this one is getting because the story continues!!!

I got the call today that the truck was ready and went and transferred all my stuff from the one I was borrowing into the dually.

Motor sounded great,no smoke,no ticking,just the sound of an apparently healthy diesel.

In addition to the timing chain and gears and rocker he said they also replaced "a couple" pushrods! Remember this was after the reason it was in there to just replace the injector pump.He said I was getting a good deal with all the free parts, which is true IF it ran right.

Did it? NO WAY

In fairness it did run good the first few miles in town then I hit the highway.I hit passing gear to see what would happen and noticed black smoke like when this all started (prior to that and just running at the speed limit I could see no smoke).

Anyhow passing gear was rough (stumbling,not smooth) then the black smoke.I was at a ramp so I pulled off.I felt the motor stumble once more at idle waiting for the light and then noticed white smoke coming out the exhaust pipe.When the light turned green it was attempting to handle all the raw fuel it was drowning in (I guess that was what was happening anyway) I called the shop owner to ask him if he wanted me to shut it down or limp it back.Limp it back it was.Talk about a dust cropper! A city bus actully honked at me as they were choking on the huge clouds of smoke coming out of mine during a long light (ok, I was running the idle up a ;itt;e bit to which brought huge clouds, but I wanted to see if it would clear up with the RPM's).

Sooooooooooooo it is back in the shop.He took me right in and hooked it up to the computer and said he'd call.

On a good note the guy finished the rebuilding of my torque tube drive system in one day on my 60 Buick.I really could not believe it when he called (and he didn't get it till after lunch) he stayed till 8PM to finish it.

Imagine getting a vehicle back in basically one day:eek: Wonder what he knows about diesels!):h ):h Next week will be week TWO on the truck-:t

What the #@*%? I think you should post the name of this garage in the sticky section in a new thread "Shops to avoid!".

Yeh, if they don't get it back and RIGHT real soon (like Monday) I might just do that (shops to avoid).

I just hope they really checked out the computer well before they installed that expensive pump (I called and requested that they make sure it definitely wasn't anything else before the pump was made unreturnable).

The guy who was working on it they said had excellent credentials but had only been with them 4 months and everyone else (big shop) had been there for a minimum of 4 years.That tells me something must be right around there (low turnover and must have repeat customers to pay everyone).

Yesterday when I went back in the shop to get the rest of my things out of the dually they were checking the codes.I still don't know enough about diesels to talk a decent game with the mechanic but he did show me where he was remotely disconnecting injectors and #4 and 5 and 6 I believe showed problems.When he isolated #4 for example there was no change in the rough idle of the motor.Then on the ones that were working the idle got more rough when those were cut out.

The mechanic said "Ya know you can get a bad pump from time to time".

I just wonder if it is the computer like was suggested here earlier.

I sure hope I don't get stuck with a bill on the pumps AND a new computer.

To date I have paid $800 and some change for the injector pump and $700 to there shop which included a lift pump,filter and the other parts the guy broke.Wish I had driven it before I paid but it didn't seem to be an option.At least it was on a card incase there is future trouble.

I may have to go the rental route next week as this has really hurt my job not having a vehicle with a bed:(

I just hope everything turns out ok

just to let you know i have a shop and i have no problems letting someone test drive their vehicle b4 they pay for the work done . if i don't trust someone i will just go for the ride with them so they can't take off i stand behind my work and if it is not good i want to know so i would ask this guy to drive it b4 you give him any more money if he wont let you tell him to go with you if he still won't let you find someone else to work on your truck

That one was my fault because I know he would have let me drive it but I have known him so long and he sounded so totally confident from their test drive, that I took it for granted.

Next time I am sure both of us will insist on the ride first.

Well, it took long enough but the truck has been back for a day and a half and is holding together.

They ended up replacing most of the push rods and several rockers (should have replaced them all in my book) .

Of course they replaced the lift pump and injector pump as they were the original problem at least till butter fingers dropped the bolt in my timing chain.

They also checked the turbo gate solenoid someone here suggested and replaced it free of charge.

Truck is running STROOOOOOOOOOOONG,no unusual smoke, or surging, just nice strong diesel power.

I LOVE MY TRUCK!

Thanks again for all the help fellas, you guys are great:cool2: !

Glad it finally worked out well for you