Thought you guys would enjoy this story... I stopped by two large GM dealers in the Knoxville, TN area yesteday (one Chevy and one GMC), I posed as an interested truck buyer looking for their recommendation on which truck would best fit my needs for pulling a 14,000 5th wheel RV.

They went to their charts and figured that a 2500HD or 3500 with a 4:10 rear axel & tow package was the first thing I needed, Then we got to the power plant.

They mentioned two options, the 8.1 gas & the 6.6 Duramax. They jumped on how great the D'max was at first. But then, when I questioned them on the true reliability of the D'max and asked them each about the "injector" problems that I said I had heard about on a truck forum website, Both sales reps bowed down their heads and looked away for a minute.

Then they admitted sheepishly that in fact GM was having injector problems and had no current solution. They said if I was concerned with reliability, I should stick with the 8.1 liter GASSER engine even though they said they were pigs on gas mileage.

Right fron the horses mouth.:( :mad:

.

There was an injector survey on here...search it. Injector problems are across the big 3 now because of the new emmision standards. The 8.1 is a sturdy power plant....better or more reliable than a Dmax...................mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......an ybody got any popcorn.....

The sad thing about this story is that Diesels are an immediate solution to better mileage and this country's use of foriegn oil but the technology is not to the point where they are as reliable as a gas motor.

I wonder what the failure rate is of these fuel systems in Europe...

Even if they failed....if there were trained techs at the dealerships and the injectors were readily available....then the down time would be nil.

But when you hear the stories about waiting weeks and then the truck still does not run right afterwards....then you have to say this diesel technology my not be ready for mainstream....say the soccer mom in a suburban.

And why cannot GM just add in an extra filter...say a good one from CAT or a RACOR R90S....I know about the new double pleated one...but it seems like GM does not want to spend the money to come up with a solution....like maybe they are not so sure about the future of the technology.

...I wonder what the failure rate is of these fuel systems in Europe...


Not sure if Bosch is using this exact system in anything for Europe. I have heard that VW's TDI fuel system problems are an order of magnitude higher in the US than in Europe. Generally this is assumed to be a fuel quality issue. Lubricity seems to be a bigger issue than contaminants, but that is at best unscientific information. Maybe not coincidentally, biodiesel has been in almost universal use in much of Europe since the TDI came out...

lfetchen

Given MY experience with the dealerships in Knoxville, I would take anything a sales weasel said to me with a grain of salt. (No, I didn't buy my truck in Knox-Vegas) What I'm saying is that you've got to take the source of any information into consideration. Was there any quantitative information presented to back up their statement(s)?

I'm not professing that there is or is not an injector problem. I'm simply stating that just because someone SAYS something does not make it true.

Now, what does that say about this post, given that last statement? :)

At one point they said unleaded gasoline destroyed engines. Reliability was way down at first.

Same will be true for Common Rail (Ultra High Pressure) Injection. They will figure it out. The low sulphur fuel is probably a significant problem due to the lubrication properties of sulphur.

I cannot believe you are quoting salesman. When I want to know what problems our local Dmax owners are having I walk out back and talk to the Techs. Later! Frank

I'd be willing to bet that as soon as Big Brother makes the Oil company's add 5-10% Bio per gallon, most off the injector issues will disappear.

Well how long does it take to figure this out? They are on year 6, additional filter didn't help me, extra additives didn't help me. My 01 went 80,000 before I traded it in and no injector issues with no additives, no extra filter, but my 03 only went 60,000 miles with the aftermarket works. Cummins Bosch system is similiar yet different, they don't seem to have the injector failure rate as high as GM, but they seem to have more then they used to have. Wondering if its worth giving up the longevity and reliability for the speed and performance.

The salesmen were saying that because the gassers are harder to sell now and they were probably all out of Dmax trucks just like every other dealer is right now... You should have asked them to show you what they drive, you would be suprised.Thought you guys would enjoy this story... I stopped by two large GM dealers in the Knoxville, TN area yesteday (one Chevy and one GMC), I posed as an interested truck buyer looking for their recommendation on which truck would best fit my needs for pulling a 14,000 5th wheel RV.

They went to their charts and figured that a 2500HD or 3500 with a 4:10 rear axel & tow package was the first thing I needed, Then we got to the power plant.

They mentioned two options, the 8.1 gas & the 6.6 Duramax. They jumped on how great the D'max was at first. But then, when I questioned them on the true reliability of the D'max and asked them each about the "injector" problems that I said I had heard about on a truck forum website, Both sales reps bowed down their heads and looked away for a minute.

Then they admitted sheepishly that in fact GM was having injector problems and had no current solution. They said if I was concerned with reliability, I should stick with the 8.1 liter GASSER engine even though they said they were pigs on gas mileage.

Right fron the horses mouth.:( :mad:

.

lfetchen

Given MY experience with the dealerships in Knoxville, I would take anything a sales weasel said to me with a grain of salt. (No, I didn't buy my truck in Knox-Vegas) What I'm saying is that you've got to take the source of any information into consideration. Was there any quantitative information presented to back up their statement(s)?

I'm not professing that there is or is not an injector problem. I'm simply stating that just because someone SAYS something does not make it true.

Now, what does that say about this post, given that last statement? :)

Read you loud and clear CSTONE, I don't trust any SALES WEASEL either. However, I bough my truck in Columbus, Ohio and when I was back there recently, I played the same game, posing as a 5th wheel owner potentially interested truck buyer and got a similar response.

The sales reps know that they don't have a reliable diesel to sell in today's market and it appears that many potential buyers have done thier own research and have thrown the injector issues in the sales reps faces. So I guess the Reps have decided not to jeopardize future sales opportunities by being at least a "little bit" honest about the D'max reliability problems.

Also, if GM had even a clue how to ease the problem, it would be nice to hear a recommendation from them. If it's filtration, say so, if lubricity is the issue, recommend an additive.

But they just sit there trying to limit their liability issues.

:(

.

I would never go by what a CAR SALESMAN told me. I had one tell me that Chevrolet and GMC no longer build trucks together and were to different companies, and that GMC used better parts. The had one more coat of paint, better bands in transmission. His exact words were "GMC and Chevrolet fell out of bed with each other." Never that a car salesman words as all true!!!!!:exactly:

Well it's obvious that the salesmen have done their job. Trade yours in and be done with it. :)

I cannot believe you are quoting salesman. When I want to know what problems our local Dmax owners are having I walk out back and talk to the Techs. Later! Frank

I agree Frank.. the best source of reliability and repair info is from the guys who get paid to fix them.

No, I don't believe in Santa and I surely don't believe car salesmen (who in my opinion are just above the pond scum the laywers in the world are under).

In my search for truth and SOLUTIONS to GM's and my D'max problems, I will seek information from any and all available sources. Even Diesel Forums. I have talked to techs and there responses were not that helpfull either.

:exactly:

I'd be willing to bet that as soon as Big Brother makes the Oil company's add 5-10% Bio per gallon, most off the injector issues will disappear.


Hmm! I wonder if we should start adding a gallon of Wesson cooking oil to our tanks at each fill up. It sure would be cheaper than dealing with the aggravation of having injector issues.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :badidea: :confused: :confused: :confused:


.

Did someone say Dodge is not having problems?

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131509&page=1&pp=15&highlight=injector+failure

...Wondering if its worth giving up the longevity and reliability for the speed and performance.

It's not necessarily speed and performance, but rather efficiency and emmissions.

Finally a dealership that actually knows what they are talking about ):h ):h ):h

Why do you people even respond to this guy? lfetchen=TROLL

lfetchen
Do you post about anything other than GMs bad Injectors?

Now Dozer,
Ifetchen odviously has more insight than us.:lol: The fact that Bio adds lubricity and seems to clean up the rest of the fuel system would not have any impact to the injector issues. It has to just be a :badidea:

When I had my truck at the dealer recently the service writer was pretty friendly, we got to talking about the DMAX and injectors and he said they had not replaced a set in quite some time. He said far more on the first 2 model years than the later models.

You walk into a dealership and the salesman wants to sell you a truck. You ask about a Dmax, so he plans on selling one. You ask about reliability and he is ready to say "no problem", but you hit him with the "injector issue" so, he, thinking that you have it in your head that the Dmax is crap, figures that it is easier to sell a gas truck than to try and change your mind about the Dmax. To the salesman, your perception is the reality and if he can sell you a truck, great. The only truth that matters is the one that makes the sale.

I wouldn't trust a saleman any farther then I could throw my truck. First they tried to sale you a Duramax with 4.10 gears? :rolleyes: Unles that is a brand new option, they are blowing smoke up you butt:exactly:

I wouldn't trust a saleman any farther then I could throw my truck. First they tried to sale you a Duramax with 4.10 gears? :rolleyes: Unles that is a brand new option, they are blowing smoke up you butt:exactly:


Exaclty - It's the old - "Tell the customer what he / she wants to hear"

Go to Ronnie Williams Chevrolet...he'll sell you a Dmax, they have a bunch of them on the lot. Oh, wait a minute that's who changed my injectors):h I'd get rid of that time bomb your driving and seriously consider a gass guzzler:lol:

It would be nice, before going out and buying another pickup, to know just how bad this and other problems with all the makes are. But to do that one would have to know all the numbers, units produced, number of failures, miles to failure, how driven, etc, etc. The bean counters at the big three, and all others for that matter have those stats and they are probably better kept secrets than the launch codes for our nukes. To read this forum one would think most people have problems, but I would hazard a guess that most folks that join do so because of a question or problem and that the vast majority of owners are happily driving along in oblivion to either impending problems or to the forums existence. Don't get me wrong, this is a great site and I have learned much, keep up the good work.

A good friend is the service manager at a local dealership that sells lots of trucks including the medium duty trucks. He admits that the early (01-02) trucks had injector problems and they were having trouble getting replacements, by 03, they saw big drop in injector problems and a further drop with the LLY in 04. When I asked him what to buy he said go for an 03 and up Duramax.
By the way he was not particulary fond of the older 6.2/6.5 diesels and wouldn't recomend buying a GM diesel to me until 03.
At the last service I asked him about Durmax reliability and he again stated that the 03 and up, and especially the LLY are showing very few injector problems or other problems for that matter.
So far my LLY has been great, but 16K miles is just getting broke in.

I am a veterinarian by trade, but I did grow up in a tool and die shop and it seems to me that there are multiple factors causing the injector failures. Increased fuel pressure inherent with the system, contaminated fuel, corrosion in the fuel system itself and probably a metallurgical issue with the injectors. If the steel that these injectors is improperly treated or for some other reason too "soft" then they are doomed to prematurely fail. This would also make them more suceptable to the effects of contaminants in the fuel etc. Just a thought.

mikec, i think you might have hit it, bosch could be using better materials to get fit and finish in europe but use end run(scrap metal) for export products. if you consider operating pressure, tempature and seating pressure on injector, you would need high grade steel alloy. wonder if GM has ever looked at this. that would account for lubricant or added filtration not fixing it. best

For what it's worth.....
A good friend of mine works in a dealership as a tech, and a while ago he told me he heard thru the tech net that GM was going to offer 300,000Km "good will" repairs on the injectors. He also tells me the its not an issue if the inj will fail but more an issue of when they will fail. I'm in the Canadian Military and the Gov't bought a bunch of the GM trucks, so they sent some of our tech on the GM tech training Course, right out of the GM tech trainer's mouth the inj were bad and if I remember correctly they are made by Bosch (don't quote me) it had alot to do with metal fatique from the lines making it to the injectors along with some part in the injector that was changed to titatium, but apparently that did not cure it.
Not to start anything here, as all this info is second hand, not gospel

lfetchen
Do you post about anything other than GMs bad Injectors?

):h

To "DOZERBOY", I sure have... multiple times and have gotten excellent responses from some of the more knowledgeable Forum Members.

However, your criticism about hearing/seeing injector posts seems inappropriate since injectors are the biggest problem that these D'max's have. This problem makes the trucks reliability factor very questionable and only by talking about it and reporting problems will this problem get fixed. Sorry you're unhappy with my views... but it is America... I thought.
:exactly:

This topic has gone by the way side. If you are worried about the injectors trade it in on a Ford or Dodge like Hoot did. I plan to run mine up near 100K and then decide if I want to keep it or buy another Dmax. Later! Frank

As for boschs diesel injectors they have allways had a metal problem they out sourse most of there plants so there quality is not very even when it comes to what they make. I know because I rebuild diesel injection parts
{ injectors and injection pumps} Bosch has allways had some quality problems don't get me wrong this how I make my living and I love my job and bosch is on the cutting edge if in what ever they make but bosch is so big they only look at the profet line not the comsumer of there products.

For what it's worth.....
A good friend of mine works in a dealership as a tech, and a while ago he told me he heard thru the tech net that GM was going to offer 300,000Km "good will" repairs on the injectors.
Not to start anything here, as all this info is second hand, not gospel

This already happened . GM special policy is covering injector failure in the 01 and 02 dmax to 320000kms in Canada. The trick is they must totally fail as in fuel in oil, hard starting or throwing an ses code. In my case I have a knocking injector and excessive smoke. Dealer said it is failing but gm denied warranty because I didn't have the "special policy" symptoms. Dealer said wait till it fails totally and it will be warrantied. Frustrating to say the least, but I'll wait it out.

):h

To "DOZERBOY", I sure have... multiple times and have gotten excellent responses from some of the more knowledgeable Forum Members.

However, your criticism about hearing/seeing injector posts seems inappropriate since injectors are the biggest problem that these D'max's have. This problem makes the trucks reliability factor very questionable and only by talking about it and reporting problems will this problem get fixed. Sorry you're unhappy with my views... but it is America... I thought.
:exactly:


Just given ya a hard time and glad you’re finding some of the answers you’re in search of. Moreover, many will argue with you about the injectors at least there are warning sings and they can be replaced. Now overheating, poor AC, dinky 245, and to some apparently a lack of power ):h, and ECT are problem as well so until you find an engineer that will build you injector that will not fail most of these post are worthless and have been beat to death since '01. And if it's so bad, there are options other than the Dmax.

"good will" repairs on the injectors.

Isn't that nice of GM? Like they are doing us a favor -:t

What do you mean, US? Did you trade the Dodge in on another Duramax?;) Isn't that nice of GM? Like they are doing us a favor -:t

What do you mean, US? Did you trade the Dodge in on another Duramax?;)

Sorry Mike. I thought we were all in this together regardless of brand.

generally speaking, salesmen know NOTHING about the vehicles they sell, except for colors and options.

GM gas engines are a joke. The pushrod engines GM produces are the cheapest, lowest technology, most polluting you can buy.
GM is all about saving their A$$ from chapter 11. GM spends about 1/2 on R&D that Toyota does, less than Ford, less than D-C. They spend $2000/vehicle extra in UAW contract expenses...
I love my Dmax, but this is my last GM vehicle.

I think they have a great power train, but its almost ready for prime time. The injector issue is real. lets face it for a $5000 upgrade, they need to step up to the plate with these Injector issues. Start by extending the warranty to the 03's and 04"s. Heck I traded in my 01 which was covered with the extended warranty, and had no issues at all with injectors. Spent another 40 grand on an 03, no extended warranty on the injectors, added the extra filter, and the injectors crapped at 60,000 miles. So much for being a Loyal GM customer?

FWIW - I read all these post about unreliability and failing injectors with some opinions that high fuel pressure, "juiced" systems, ect, cause the problems. This may be true to some extent but a close buddy of mine aquired an '01 with this problem early in the history of the injector failures. This was before GM would replace them and he tried to repair the injectors on his own. It was his opinion that the injectors have a design flaw where they drill the hole (to insert something) and plug the hole back with what he discribed as a "B.B." or small ball. When the ball worked loose that's when these injectors started leaking fuel into the engine. I think he too may be correct (to a certain extent) in his anylisis of the "injector" issue. May just be a poor design. I wish Bosch would come up with a bullet proof replacement.

Just given ya a hard time and glad you’re finding some of the answers you’re in search of. Moreover, many will argue with you about the injectors at least there are warning sings and they can be replaced. Now overheating, poor AC, dinky 245, and to some apparently a lack of power ):h, and ECT are problem as well so until you find an engineer that will build you injector that will not fail most of these post are worthless and have been beat to death since '01. And if it's so bad, there are options other than the Dmax.

:) Thanks for your response "Dozerboy"... I'll take your comments in a positive way... I didn't mean to come accross in a confrontational manner, it's just that I generally love my truck and wish GM had a permanent and long term solution to the Bosch Injectors.

Let's call a TRUCE !!!:ro) ):h

.

I Love Frank Blum's Answer!!!!! :muahaha:
Exactly Said!!!!
:exactly:

Give it a year, there will be many that will change brands...... :thumb:

If there was nobody to complain, they would not be forced to do anything about it....:mad:
All I know is that Employee pricing is killing re-sale, like ouch......:lol:

I "love it". Nuttin but Injector issues, thank God all the "original" so-called issues have gone by the way side.....My '01 keeps on putt putt'n along. Just back from 2K trip California to Seattle and back towing about 9K car trailer. No issues at all, purred all the way...

By the way, I saw more DMAX trucks hauling campers and trailers than any other brand both going up and back, the freakin things were everywhere. Must have been the GMS program, Chevys and Jimmy's galore! I stopped for fuel in Yreka (1 station with Diesel) and there were 6 DMAX's there waiting to fill up! We all had a great "thumbs Up Salute"

When I first got this truck back in '01 all I heard was the Aluminum heads are going to meltdown, then it was blown head gaskets, converter bolts falling out etc. etc. etc. Yes, some had these issues except I have heard no cases of melting aluminum heads except for the one guy who's truck burned up in a fire.

Head gaskets yep there were a few, converter and flex plate bolts issues, yes some had those problems. Injectors by and large the biggest issue so added the Nictane Cat Filter, seems to be working well as CAT filter is always dirtier than the OEM so I know it's helping.

So am I sitting around waiting for the injectors to fail????? Hell no, rack up the miles, GM stepped up with the 200K mile coverage, cost of the injectors has also come way down now.

Over the years I have paid for trannys, intakes, timing belts and various other trips to the dealer......all this after 36K on gassers and cars. With my DMAX coverage to 100K on the engine and 200K on the injectors I am way better off that the normal 36K on gassers and cars and SUV's etc. Even with 36K on everything else on my truck I am still ahead on coverage with the DMAX...

So if in the end of all this, the injectors turn out to be a common problem, then it will get resolved eventually and we have some money left over due to the longer coverage.

Anyway, I am driving it until she blows and then I will get it fixed!

If the problem was big enough some aftermarket Injector manufacturer would already be out with aftermarket injector replacements for the DMAX. Given the "inevitable" failures some are predicting there would seem to be a lot of money to be made on replacement injectors, but wait before we can buy replacement aftermarket injectors, we have to get past the 200K free replacement coverage right?

Regards

Regards

Both sales reps



Right there was the your first clue to ignore everything that came out of their mouths.

GM gas engines are a joke. The pushrod engines GM produces are the cheapest, lowest technology, most polluting you can buy.
GM is all about saving their A$$ from chapter 11. GM spends about 1/2 on R&D that Toyota does, less than Ford, less than D-C. They spend $2000/vehicle extra in UAW contract expenses...
I love my Dmax, but this is my last GM vehicle.

Riddle me this: Name the Super Low Emissions (SLEV) engines that Toyota makes that can hit over 300HP and 28MPG? GM has several under their belt so far.

Why do GM V8's get better mileage than Toyota V6's?

Why does a GM 350ci V8 replacement engine cost less than a 4cyl Toyota cylinder head? Trust me the Toyota head is FAR less trick than a GM 4-cyl head.

And getting directly to the point, when was the last time you saw a Toyota on the street that was made in the 1960's or 1970's?

Yes, yes, Toyota's are longer lasting, less polluting, cost $1 to repair, go 500mph, get 1,200mpg, and can not be harmed in a traffic collision. They are made of Trickanium and designed by clones of Einstein. Or perhaps you're just full of crap.

:funnypost :exactly:Just another reason why I always try to read everything that McRat posts. He's got my vote for Diesel Place MVP. :thumb:

McRat..

Very good stuff. GM does have it's good points. I also don't believe the Toyotas and Hondas are what they once were. Technology has brought on complexity.

Still doesn't change the fact that there is a certain amount of risk when choosing which diesel truck to buy and which is most proven. Don't forget.. part of the high cost of the Dmax engine and it's parts are technology and Japanese driven.

That's why I switched to Cummins. It's quite a bit more proven and is still proving itself.

Posted by packfan:>>"GM gas engines are a joke. The pushrod engines GM produces are the cheapest, lowest technology, most polluting you can buy.
GM is all about saving their A$$ from chapter 11. GM spends about 1/2 on R&D that Toyota does, less than Ford, less than D-C. They spend $2000/vehicle extra in UAW contract expenses...
I love my Dmax, but this is my last GM vehicle."<<

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The current small blocks are some of the best engines to ever come out of detroit, or anywhere for that matter. For those that know these things are monsters. Refer to my link: http://popularhotrodding.com/tech/0504phr_ls7/

Posted by Hoot:>>"McRat..

Very good stuff. GM does have it's good points. I also don't believe the Toyotas and Hondas are what they once were. Technology has brought on complexity.

Still doesn't change the fact that there is a certain amount of risk when choosing which diesel truck to buy and which is most proven. Don't forget.. part of the high cost of the Dmax engine and it's parts are technology and Japanese driven.

That's why I switched to Cummins. It's quite a bit more proven and is still proving itself."<<


So let me get this straight, You think a pusrod v8 with a german engineered fuel system is japanese technology?

AMEN!

Riddle me this: Name the Super Low Emissions (SLEV) engines that Toyota makes that can hit over 300HP and 28MPG? GM has several under their belt so far.

Why do GM V8's get better mileage than Toyota V6's?

Why does a GM 350ci V8 replacement engine cost less than a 4cyl Toyota cylinder head? Trust me the Toyota head is FAR less trick than a GM 4-cyl head.

And getting directly to the point, when was the last time you saw a Toyota on the street that was made in the 1960's or 1970's?

Yes, yes, Toyota's are longer lasting, less polluting, cost $1 to repair, go 500mph, get 1,200mpg, and can not be harmed in a traffic collision. They are made of Trickanium and designed by clones of Einstein. Or perhaps you're just full of crap.

So let me get this straight, You think a pusrod v8 with a german engineered fuel system is japanese technology?




Wake up and smell the green tea. ):h

Read the little sticker on your valve cover. I thinnk they still put the Isuzu sticker on their don't they?

I "love it". Nuttin but Injector issues, thank God all the "original" so-called issues have gone by the way side.....My '01 keeps on putt putt'n along. Just back from 2K trip California to Seattle and back towing about 9K car trailer. No issues at all, purred all the way...

By the way, I saw more DMAX trucks hauling campers and trailers than any other brand both going up and back, the freakin things were everywhere. Must have been the GMS program, Chevys and Jimmy's galore! I stopped for fuel in Yreka (1 station with Diesel) and there were 6 DMAX's there waiting to fill up! We all had a great "thumbs Up Salute"

When I first got this truck back in '01 all I heard was the Aluminum heads are going to meltdown, then it was blown head gaskets, converter bolts falling out etc. etc. etc. Yes, some had these issues except I have heard no cases of melting aluminum heads except for the one guy who's truck burned up in a fire.

Head gaskets yep there were a few, converter and flex plate bolts issues, yes some had those problems. Injectors by and large the biggest issue so added the Nictane Cat Filter, seems to be working well as CAT filter is always dirtier than the OEM so I know it's helping.

So am I sitting around waiting for the injectors to fail????? Hell no, rack up the miles, GM stepped up with the 200K mile coverage, cost of the injectors has also come way down now.

Over the years I have paid for trannys, intakes, timing belts and various other trips to the dealer......all this after 36K on gassers and cars. With my DMAX coverage to 100K on the engine and 200K on the injectors I am way better off that the normal 36K on gassers and cars and SUV's etc. Even with 36K on everything else on my truck I am still ahead on coverage with the DMAX...

So if in the end of all this, the injectors turn out to be a common problem, then it will get resolved eventually and we have some money left over due to the longer coverage.

Anyway, I am driving it until she blows and then I will get it fixed!

If the problem was big enough some aftermarket Injector manufacturer would already be out with aftermarket injector replacements for the DMAX. Given the "inevitable" failures some are predicting there would seem to be a lot of money to be made on replacement injectors, but wait before we can buy replacement aftermarket injectors, we have to get past the 200K free replacement coverage right?

Regards

Regards

I had the same feel of optimism as you do after I installed the Nictane set-up on my 03, and still had injector issues. I think GM has a great set-up here, but they need to get to the next level with the injector issues, that being longevity. Not to many other issues have really dogged the D/A powertrain, but by extendeing the warranty on your Injectors and not mine, when we have the same engine, is a half arsed approach to this.

I do hope some aftermarket or better yet,Bosch injector redisign comes along soon, and then just (maybe) the Engine will match the Cummins for bragging rights in time, and with the Allison, its a real Power House power train. But with out the Longevity, question answered, the benefit of longterm ownership of a Diesel and the extra upfront cost doesn't make sense if you have a expensive repair do every 60,000- 70,000 miles and its out of warranty. Still a D/A fan, just need GM to get to the next level.