What is the maximum safe boost for our 6.6 Dmax?


For you guys with the Attitude monitor, where do you have your boost alarm set at?

IIRC the attitude won't read much more than 25 pounds of boost. You can see 28 pounds measured at the wastegate pretty easy. With my stack I have seen as high as 34 pounds on mine. If you fiddle with the wastegate some have seen around 40 pounds but you will grenade the turbo if you keep hitting that level.


I don't think that you will hit an "unsafe" boost level with the wastgate working on the stock turbo. I have heard rumors that with the twins on the ATS truck that the stock heads were holding at 50 to 60 pounds of boost without a failure but who knows how long the top end will hold up to that abuse.


I did hear that they bent a conn rod on their engine but I have no clue as to the veracity of the statement or what caused the bottom end failure.Edited by: BMDMAX

I don't think that you will hit an "unsafe" boost level with the wastgate working on the stock turbo.





Cool, that sets my mind at ease as far as that. Thankshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

be very very careful about wastegates, i grenaded my turbo at 37lbs of boost..... very noisy, very expensive, and BD blew theirs up at 40# of boost, same results.


Anyone who totally disables the gate and barks their turbo can expect a nasty suprise.... i know from experiencehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif





BTW that was 37lbs PSIG after the intercooler!


Edited by: Got Juice?

I regularly see more than 30, but less than 35. I'm running TST's comp box and their "calibrated leak" I guess you could call it in the boost sense line so that my boost is turned up but the wastegate will still function, just at a higher boost. I don't think I've ever barked my turbo, but I don't chop the throttle at high boost either, I back off gradually like 1 or 2 sec to fully off.

Guys, I definately am not looking for that kind of power. I have a stock wastegate and intend to keep it that way.





Thanks for the replies though http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Hey guys, I'm new to the site but have been around others for a while. With an intake and only a 70HP comp tune with a stock turbo what, if anything, can be done to raise boost pressure with the stock wastegate?

Hey guys, I'm new to the site but have been around others for a while. With an intake and only a 70HP comp tune with a stock turbo what, if anything, can be done to raise boost pressure with the stock wastegate?


If I had a 70hp tune, and wanted more power, I would just upgrade to a higher tune, and leave the wastegate stock. If you still think you want to modify it, you can put a restrictor into the vacume hose, but make sure you have a boost guage, and don't go too far.Edited by: Amric

Thanks, I think for now it can wait, but hopefully before too long (this summer), she will get some more HP.

40+ psi will not hurt the stock turbo at all unless you plug the wastegate actuator line off. If you unhook or plug that line off I have seen them blow anywhere over 35.

40+ psi will not hurt the stock turbo at all unless you plug the wastegate actuator line off. If you unhook or plug that line off I have seen them blow anywhere over 35.


I don't think I understand. Let's say one bleeds off boost and the turbo produces 35psi. How is that 35psi different from 35psi created from a turbo with a disconnected/blocked wastegate? I'm assuming both are measured at the same location in the intake.


Either way, the wastegate is not opening and the turbo is making more boost.


R, Steve

40+ psi will not hurt the stock turbo at all unless you plug the wastegate actuator line off. If you unhook or plug that line off I have seen them blow anywhere over 35.


I don't think I understand. Let's say one bleeds off boost and the turbo produces 35psi. How is that 35psi different from 35psi created from a turbo with a disconnected/blocked wastegate? I'm assuming both are measured at the same location in the intake.


Either way, the wastegate is not opening and the turbo is making more boost.


R, Steve





When the throttle is closed all the way with the WG disabled the exhaust energy is trying to spin the exhaust side of the turbo(without the saftey valve W/G), unfortunately (for me) the engine cannot ingest the air as the engine slows down. then you get a reverse pressure wave returning to the turbo stalling the compressor side.... and at 170,000 rpms that wave causes and eddy current that rapidly slows the turbine down while at the same time the exhaust energy is still trying to drive the turbine. a mild instance will produce a high pitched 'woofing' noise a major instance will woff several times before the shaft on the turbo distorts from the 2 opposing twisting forces, impellers then hit the housing, both shatter, sending pieces into the ic core/engine. If the worst case scenario happens shut truck off immediately otherwise it will feed off of the hp oil line to the turbo and you will have a runaway engine (like mine did) very scary stuff. I wish i coulda taken pics of my turbo, i saw it before it went away. I've blown other turbos, G-laders and roots chargers before, but this was TOTAL carnage!Edited by: Got Juice?

"When the throttle is closed all the way with the WG disabled the exhaust energy is trying to spin the exhaust side of the turbo(without the saftey valve W/G), unfortunately (for me) the engine cannot ingest the air as the engine slows down. then you get a reverse pressure wave returning to the turbo stalling the compressor side.... "


Are you thinking of a throttle plate? There is no throttle to close. We step on a pedal which has a spring, 3 resistors and a couple of wires that send the signal to the ECM which controls fuel pump, fuel pressure, injectors, timing and pulse width. The intake tract is wide open all the time on a diesel. On the EGR equipped models there is a plate in the intake, but it is used to recirculate exhaust gasses, it's not connected to the throttle pedal.


If one disconnects the hose entirely from the WG, the WG sees no boost. Thus it never opens, never bleeds off exhaust and makes boost until equilibrium is reached between fuel, rpm and load.


If one cuts a hole in the hose, once again the WG doesn't see the boost (all or some of it) and if you're bleeding off enough for it to make 40psi, I think it's probably fully closed. Thus same scenario as above.


I've seen video of what you're talking about, "barking" a turbo. The engine was under tremendous load and the throttle was suddenly released. I can see how this can put huge loads on a turbo and damage it exactly as you describe. It just seems to me that the 40 psi, in combo with extreme engine loading (like sled pulling or stuck in the mud) and sudden throttle release are the real causes here. Not whether the boost is bled off or blocked off.


Maybe I'm missing something. Is there a way to make 40psi boost with a stock turbo without blocking or bleeding the WG hose?

This is really cool stuff guys! I have 2 questions for the both of you .


I was stuck in snow and spinning my tires a little. I was trying to rock the truck. I would put the brakes on and slow things down and then put it in reverse. The engine made some funky woofing/whirling noises. Do you think this was hurting my turbo? . It was -30 windchill and I was not about to be stuck.


Second question.


What does a Banks Big Head Wastegate do?

"When the throttle is closed all the way with the WG disabled the exhaust energy is trying to spin the exhaust side of the turbo(without the saftey valve W/G), unfortunately (for me) the engine cannot ingest the air as the engine slows down. then you get a reverse pressure wave returning to the turbo stalling the compressor side.... "


Are you thinking of a throttle plate? There is no throttle to close. We step on a pedal which has a spring, 3 resistors and a couple of wires that send the signal to the ECM which controls fuel pump, fuel pressure, injectors, timing and pulse width. The intake tract is wide open all the time on a diesel. On the EGR equipped models there is a plate in the intake, but it is used to recirculate exhaust gasses, it's not connected to the throttle pedal.


If one disconnects the hose entirely from the WG, the WG sees no boost. Thus it never opens, never bleeds off exhaust and makes boost until equilibrium is reached between fuel, rpm and load.


If one cuts a hole in the hose, once again the WG doesn't see the boost (all or some of it) and if you're bleeding off enough for it to make 40psi, I think it's probably fully closed. Thus same scenario as above.


I've seen video of what you're talking about, "barking" a turbo. The engine was under tremendous load and the throttle was suddenly released. I can see how this can put huge loads on a turbo and damage it exactly as you describe. It just seems to me that the 40 psi, in combo with extreme engine loading (like sled pulling or stuck in the mud) and sudden throttle release are the real causes here. Not whether the boost is bled off or blocked off.


Maybe I'm missing something. Is there a way to make 40psi boost with a stock turbo without blocking or bleeding the WG hose?





I know kennedy has a better technical explaination of what happens, i do know that diesels do not have a throttle plate, i just mentioned closing the throttle. From my own frightfully bad experience never ever block the gate. Using an 'boost fooler' is somewhat safer than a complete disable (depending on how much you boost you bleed off) as the wategate is still functional, to bleed off exhaust energy when the throttle is released (during a shift for example) or simply do its prime function to release pressure when the factory set limit is reached.. IIRC i believe the surge line for our turbo is in the 35-37PSIG range... someone correct me if this is wrong info please!


Cross the surge line and close the throttle (someone cuts you off in my case) and you will probably feel as sick as i did that day.... OMFG oil smoke on decel... then white smoke and tinkling sounds in the exhaust and the intercooler (both sounds courtesy of shattered impellers trying to find their way out... in pieces.)

This is really cool stuff guys! I have 2 questions for the both of you .


I was stuck in snow and spinning my tires a little. I was trying to rock the truck. I would put the brakes on and slow things down and then put it in reverse. The engine made some funky woofing/whirling noises. Do you think this was hurting my turbo? . It was -30 windchill and I was not about to be stuck.


Second question.


What does a Banks Big Head Wastegate do?


Bronco, you have barked (surged) your turbo.... stop it :)


Most A/M wastegated are better quality designs to fight 'boost creep' under load to prevent crossing out of the compressors operating map and into the surge area. They also tend to be more aggressive in not opening prematurely and allowing peak boost to be built earlier and maintained. Most HP applications of remote wastegates are for high boost applications where adjustability on the fly is a requirement due to temperature increases/decreases and the resulting loss/gain in air density.

Don't those pieces destroy the heads?. The pistons actually rise above the block about .015" with the only thing keeping them from smashing into the head is head gasket thickness.

Don't those pieces destroy the heads?. The pistons actually rise above the block about .015" with the only thing keeping them from smashing into the head is head gasket thickness.


I guess i was just lucky. The turbo was sent back to GM for 'failure analysis'

What we have seen is that 35 psi seems to be the point at where the turbo's go by by. Some units will go higher but a general rule on the D-Max is keep it below 35. I have seen one that came apart at 32 psi so you takeing your chances any way you look at it. There are to many varying operating conditions that will cause the pressure number to be different when they explode so I donot recommend running the boost higher than 30 psi for those who want long term safety, but then there's those 1%er that I tell keep it below 35psi.

The Banks Big Head WG does the same thing the stock WG does except the Banks part is adjustable. Also, it has a port to attach a boost pressure line for a gauge.


JP

Attention:


Clean out your ears wash your mugs read what has been POSTED several times!


You can pull 40+ psi all day long and bark the turbo 100 times a day.


This WILL NOT hurt a thing unless you mess with the wastegate line.

JRmac,


You and Idle Chatter should open a school.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Bronco,


#2 pencils are too hard for some to SEE well enough to graduate.


BUT Felt-tips might work???http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gifEdited by: JRmac

Awww c'mon Bronco! I was staying clear of this one!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif (Plus he didn't have any pictures to post!)http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gifEdited by: Idle_Chatter

I can't say what the max safe point is, but I can tell you this! IT IS SOMEWHERE BELOW 47.3PSIhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

You can pull 40+ psi all day long and bark the turbo 100 times a day.


This WILL NOT hurt a thing unless you mess with the wastegate line.





Messing with the wastegate will do nothing except allow the boost to continue to climb. If your saying that you can run 40+psi all day long, then how can removing the wastegate line be any different?


Even if you are right (which I don't think you are). You have not explained your point, just stated it. Why don't you elaborate on what you think happens to cause a turbo failure after removing the wastegate line.

bark the turbo 100 times a day.


This WILL NOT hurt a thing unless you mess with the wastegate line.


[/QUOTE]





You are wrong, barking the turbo will cause a failure in the turbine unit. There are even BOV's for this purpose for diesels. I have personally witnessed a turbo bark on a dyno on a Cummins that required a new turbo, new intercooler, new head and new pistons to boot! BARKING IS NOT GOOD! BTW this dodge was running a larger HX40 and the wastegate was operational DDIII's and a Drag comp 4" exhaust and intake.

SoCal I only mentioned that disabling the wastegate line not blocking off the wastegate. When the line is unhooked or plugged the wastegate functions improperly and that is when turbo failure occurs.


HDMax have you been to 47.3? I have seen well over that with no failures.


Americ. Read my response to SoCal and your question to Jr about the wastegate line being different should be answered.

You can pull 40+ psi all day long and bark the turbo 100 times a day.


This WILL NOT hurt a thing unless you mess with the wastegate line.





Messing with the wastegate will do nothing except allow the boost to continue to climb. If your saying that you can run 40+psi all day long, then how can removing the wastegate line be any different?


Even if you are right (which I don't think you are). You have not explained your point, just stated it. Why don't you elaborate on what you think happens to cause a turbo failure after removing the wastegate line.





the only good thing about a boost fooler is it doesn't completely disable the wastegate. At surge conditions in a turbo the air will collect around the housing on the compressor side and form a 'boundary layer' of air that the blades cannot move. If enough of this boundary layer exists the compressor tries to move forward but the boundary layer (think of it in terms of a riptide) will not exit the housing, and the boost will continue to stack up in the housing. If your exhaust side is still flowing though, but in essence you have created a condition where one wheel compressor side is moving slower than the exhaust side. lifting off of the throttle will cause an 'boost backfire' from the compressor discharge (leads to engine) through to the compressor intake or turbine volute. what you hear is bark, or surge through the turbine inlet. The effects of barking are cumulative. Much like stacking on a stock tranny. I have seen some turbos take it repeatedly and not fail, and i have seen newly broken in turbos fail after only a few surge events. The bottom line: It is only a matter of when, not if it fails when you bark a turbo.





This was how it was explained to me at any rate. From blowing up enough turbos, i can see the reason for it.


What is happening. The compressor blades are analogous to a wing. As they move through the air, they direct the movement of the air according to their aerodynamic design. If an airfoil is operated at an angle of attack beyond its design limit, the flow on the low pressure side of the foil separates instead of following its contour. This condition is known as "stall". The surge line indicates where the pressure differential, air velocity, and compressor rpm conditions combine to define the aerodynamic limits of a particular compressor. If operated at or beyond this line, the compressor stalls and surges in and out of stall until external changes are imposed to keep the compressor away from this zone.http://www.atpturbo.com/root/technicinfo/gendef.htm


http://www.itpdiesel.com/CompWheel.shtmEdited by: Got Juice?

Got Juice the dodge you saw had a junk turbo. If you have a good turbo they will bark repeatedly with no failures. Also did you blow up your turbo? I told you on the phone not to mess with your wastegate line.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

HDMax have you been to 47.3? I have seen well over that with no failures.


Yes sir! I have, well at least going by the XMonitor.
This all happened last summer. I had just got the Quadzilla 135 Stealth installed, and I was running it pretty hard doing manual shifting, when at about 4100-4200 rpm in 3rd gear, just as it goes to shift up I hear a loud pop.

When this happened, the truck did not throw any codes, and no warning lights came on. I let up, start looking around. I notice the rear of my truck looks like a smoke generator on a Army tank. Just the prettiest white smoke, so thick I could not see the step bumper.

When I get pulled over, the truck is trying to rev out of control. I shut it down and get out (shaking uncontrolably, I was scared!) Oil is running everywhere.

To make a long story short; I had the intercooler and turbo replaced, 14,000 miles sense then and everything seems fine. No more waste gate blocking and no more reving to 4000+rpm.

Got Juice the dodge you saw had a junk turbo. If you have a good turbo they will bark repeatedly with no failures. Also did you blow up your turbo? I told you on the phone not to mess with your wastegate line.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif





*L* you did talk to me on the phone, but that was after i grenaded my first turbocharger. IIRC the dodge didn't have a junk turbo, though i suspect the wastegate possibly malfunctioned. Most HX40's will stand a bit of barking how much?....i do not know.


My turbo 'blown up?' that is an understatement..... let's just say it made a nice paperweight. Bearing surfaces in the cartridge were cracked, housings scored, impellers?..... there wasn't enough inconel salvage from the hsgs to fit on a silver dollar. Brutal explosion.

HDMax you had a 135 Quad only and pulled 47+ pounds of boost? I don't doubt anything you say but I would wonder if your X monitor read correctly. Was the wastegate disabled in any way or not?

Got Juice was your wastegate line disabled?


By the way most HX 40's are junk.Edited by: CPMac

HDMax have you been to 47.3? I have seen well over that with no failures.





Yes sir! I have, well at least going by the XMonitor.
This all happened last summer. I had just got the Quadzilla 135 Stealth installed, and I was running it pretty hard doing manual shifting, when at about 4100-4200 rpm in 3rd gear, just as it goes to shift up I hear a loud pop.

When this happened, the truck did not throw any codes, and no warning lights came on. I let up, start looking around. I notice the rear of my truck looks like a smoke generator on a Army tank. Just the prettiest white smoke, so thick I could not see the step bumper.

When I get pulled over, the truck is trying to rev out of control. I shut it down and get out (shaking uncontrolably, I was scared!) Oil is running everywhere.

To make a long story short; I had the intercooler and turbo replaced, 14,000 miles sense then and everything seems fine. No more waste gate blocking and no more reving to 4000+rpm.





I pulled every single fuse etc etc etc and no shut off on mine either...finally the Chargecooler filled with enough oil to starve the engine for air...only then did it stop.


Not very fun is it.... you were probably feeling as sick as i was that day.

Got Juice was your wastegate line disabled?


By the way most HX 40's are junk.





PDRHX40...definately not Junk!


and yes my gate was disabled!

I didn't say Piers were junk but they along with most other versions of the 40 have been known to have quite a few problems.

I didn't say Piers were junk but they along with most other versions of the 40 have been known to have quite a few problems.


I know, the 40's IIRc share the same shaft as the HX35's


wether it is ADP PDR ATS KKK Rayjay Cetoni-Turmat Borg Warner3K IHI Garrett Diesel Dynamics they can all explode under certain conditions

CPMac,


Off topic, but did you change your signature? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifEdited by: DIESEL 5

I have to have the 215quad stacked with the edge comp with my wastegate fully closed to see 40+lbs. Not calling you a liar, but better check the monitor and make sure all is okay and there is no defect.


As far as the hx-40's, they are known to grenade under heavy use, such as truck pulls. A couple dodge boys were warned, but did they listen.....no, did they listen the second time.....no. Ask them what there running now. Not hx-40's.


I'm waiting for my turbo, cause i'm tired of this 30-40lb baby stuff. HHHHHMMMMMM 60lbs sounds about right. Can't wait.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifLater Jeremy


Holy crap, either i have to start typing faster or you guys gotta slow down, friggin 4 new posts before i even get to post, sheeeesh.Edited by: heartbeatcanada

I have to have the 215quad stacked with the edge comp with my wastegate fully closed to see 40+lbs. Not calling you a liar, but better check the monitor and make sure all is okay and there is no defect.


As far as the hx-40's, they are known to grenade under heavy use, such as truck pulls. A couple dodge boys were warned, but did they listen.....no, did they listen the second time.....no. Ask them what there running now. Not hx-40's.


I'm waiting for my turbo, cause i'm tired of this 30-40lb baby stuff. HHHHHMMMMMM 60lbs sounds about right. Can't wait.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifLater Jeremy


Holy crap, either i have to start typing faster or you guys gotta slow down, friggin 4 new posts before i even get to post, sheeeesh.





Awww quit whining and type faster then!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Hey, any diesel freak i've seen, type with only 2 fingers. If i typed any faster ity wouldf lookl ;like3 thi9s.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Later Jeremy

I have to have the 215quad stacked with the edge comp with my wastegate fully closed to see 40+lbs. Not calling you a liar, but better check the monitor and make sure all is okay and there is no defect.


As far as the hx-40's, they are known to grenade under heavy use, such as truck pulls. A couple dodge boys were warned, but did they listen.....no, did they listen the second time.....no. Ask them what there running now. Not hx-40's.


I'm waiting for my turbo, cause i'm tired of this 30-40lb baby stuff. HHHHHMMMMMM 60lbs sounds about right. Can't wait.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifLater Jeremy


Holy crap, either i have to start typing faster or you guys gotta slow down, friggin 4 new posts before i even get to post, sheeeesh.

Well, if your seeing 40+psi and its holding together, Why would you think mine blew at less then 40? (I did have the TST PowerMax wastegate hose)

As I told the guys at the Grand Rapids GTG; I believe that the original turbo was faulty from the start. This turbo has been from the start 2-3 times louder then the other one ever was. Well with the exception of the loud screaching sound as it blew.

But getting back to the X-Monitor! It is a piece of junk. I have never seen the boost look out of the norm. But every once in a while the EGT will go up to 2216*. Some times the truck can be sitting cold and idleing. It will go from 150-300 range up to 1800+ and back down repeating this 5 or 6 times with in 10-20 seconds.
The first time I seen this I was cruising about 55 mph. This scared me for a second.
Sense then I re-wired it and placed a toggle switch that is live all the time. I happened to be sitting in my truck one day eating lunch and noticed it was at 2216* This is with the key in my pocket and the truck had been off for 4-5 hours.

I have checked all the wires and the probe, all checks out fine.

So yes you are correct in thinking the X-Monitor could be screwed up. But regardless what the boost was, it was a tad bit to muchhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I've only been up past 40lbs twice. Aborted my runs before i really got into it. If i'm gonna replace my turbo, its gonna be to a bigger one. Later Jeremy

Guy's this "barking" you are talking about would be called a compressor stall if it were in a turbine engine. A few different things can cause it in a turbine engine like spinning it so fast that the tips of the turbine exceed the critical Mach # for a given temp etc. I believe that only two ways are applicable here. Basically trying to pump more air than the compressor can and essentially the compressor stalls. I.E. just too much boost. Think of a high power Bass boat, what happens if you feed the prop too much power at too low a speed? This is one reason that most turbines have multiple compressor stages. Secondly you are within the compressors capability both pressure and flow wise when you close off the demand and flow drops and pressure skyrockets. Again the compressor will stall. Stalls can be VERY VERY destructive, for the same reason wheel hopping can destroy your driveline and just like wheel hopping nobody can tell you exactly when or if it will break. I would also think that well before you get to this point that your exhaust back pressure would be so high that you are already past the point of dimminishing returns. You would be loosing more power in back pressure than you would be gaining in boost.


On edit: If you want much more than somewhere around 30 or so you really should get a bigger pump.Edited by: a64pilot

Guy's this "barking" you are talking about would be called a compressor stall if it were in a turbine engine. A few different things can cause it in a turbine engine like spinning it so fast that the tips of the turbine exceed the critical Mach # for a given temp etc. I believe that only two ways are applicable here. Basically trying to pump more air than the compressor can and essentially the compressor stalls. I.E. just too much boost. Think of a high power Bass boat, what happens if you feed the prop too much power at too low a speed? This is one reason that most turbines have multiple compressor stages. Secondly you are within the compressors capability both pressure and flow wise when you close off the demand and flow drops and pressure skyrockets. Again the compressor will stall. Stalls can be VERY VERY destructive, for the same reason wheel hopping can destroy your driveline and just like wheel hopping nobody can tell you exactly when or if it will break. I would also think that well before you get to this point that your exhaust back pressure would be so high that you are already past the point of dimminishing returns. You would be loosing more power in back pressure than you would be gaining in boost.


On edit: If you want much more than somewhere around 30 or so you really should get a bigger pump.





The turbocharger industies terminology is compresor stall/surge. In fact you can make a decent turbine engine out of a turbocharger and an LPG tank.... i got the videos! including one (hold my beer and watch this) bubba who built a go-kart powered by a K-27 turbo on LPG...talk about insane!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Got Juice,


I knew the similarities. In fact if you look at an Apache's APU it's a single stage centrifical(sp?) compressor and the power turbine and gas producer are the same. Essentially a turbo charger with the compressor outlet hooked directly to the induction side of the exhaust. FWIW when a turbine engine stalls it usually makes a popping noise like a gun shot. and the airflow can actually be reversed and hot gasses come out of the suck side of the engine. I assume this reversion would have to exist in a turbo as well and could be part of the cause of the surging?


Any way the point I was trying to make is that maybe somewhere not too far north of 30 psi at stock engine RPM's is about as far as is prudent to take the stock turbo. If you want more maybe you should be looking at a different turbo. Many people have gone far higher, many times I'm sure. Maybe their turbo wasn't built on Mon. morning as I'm sure mine was. Of course engine RPM should be very relevant as well. I'm sure the turbo would have to spin far faster to supply 30 psi to an engine at 4,000 rpm than it would if the engine was at 3.000 RPM.

Good points A64Pilot, FWIW somone in the turbo industry told me that normally a turbo is built around an 80% safety margin, meaning that in theory we should be able to (on the ragged bleeding edge) produce 35psig without ill effects (but quit barking the turbo!)


Reversion is a good term for what is happening .


You need a co- driver anytime soon? (subtle hint) i would give my left nut to be in one of those birds!


Come on up, the weather is fine albiet snowy!


Beers on me after the ridehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

Ok here it is plain and simple. If you unhook or plug the wastegate line and go for a drive in your duramax and you have enough fuel to make too much boost (approx. 35psi, varies by truck) this is what happens. When you get to a certain point the exhaust psi will force the wastegate open completely (versus opening slowly with boost psi feeding the actuator) and dump a lot of exhaust psi causing the wastegate to quickly close. This all happens so fast you can't let off the throttle fast enough or even know it is happening. Most times this happens someone already had the line plugged and installes a bigger box and the first few times through the gears the turbo will grenade. I have seen this happen several times and it will happen very quick. So I'll say it once again, there is no benefit to plugging the wastegate line and a potential hazzard so don't do it.

Ok here it is plain and simple. If you unhook or plug the wastegate line and go for a drive in your duramax and you have enough fuel to make too much boost (approx. 35psi, varies by truck) this is what happens. When you get to a certain point the exhaust psi will force the wastegate open completely (versus opening slowly with boost psi feeding the actuator) and dump a lot of exhaust psi causing the wastegate to quickly close. This all happens so fast you can't let off the throttle fast enough or even know it is happening. Most times this happens someone already had the line plugged and installes a bigger box and the first few times through the gears the turbo will grenade. I have seen this happen several times and it will happen very quick. So I'll say it once again, there is no benefit to plugging the wastegate line and a potential hazzard so don't do it.


AAAAAAAMEN!

WHY NOT JUST GET A BANKS BIG HEAD AND LEAVE IT ALONE??? THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE BEST SOLUTION

Rickels04,


Didn't you get the point? This thread consist of the SUPER TURBO MANIACS. They will never be content to leave it alone. That's why I love this thread. Just don't mess with my truck.

Ok here it is plain and simple. If you unhook or plug the wastegate line and go for a drive in your duramax and you have enough fuel to make too much boost (approx. 35psi, varies by truck) this is what happens. When you get to a certain point the exhaust psi will force the wastegate open completely (versus opening slowly with boost psi feeding the actuator) and dump a lot of exhaust psi causing the wastegate to quickly close. This all happens so fast you can't let off the throttle fast enough or even know it is happening. Most times this happens someone already had the line plugged and installes a bigger box and the first few times through the gears the turbo will grenade. I have seen this happen several times and it will happen very quick. So I'll say it once again, there is no benefit to plugging the wastegate line and a potential hazzard so don't do it.


The part where the exhaust psi ALONE is able to open the wastegate was either not mentioned before, or I completly missed it. That really helps clear things up. I wish all threads could be as detailed as this one. I not the kind of person to just take something for face value. I want to know WHY things happen, not just that they do.

OK guys, read through all the posts, and have more questions now than before. First one is, how come the turbos let go before anything else? You would think that an intercooler hose or something would give before a turbo. Second is regarding twin turbos. Saw a video of an F350 with a Cummins equipped with twins running the 1/4 mile in 11.42 seconds. Guy runs about 100 pounds of boost at the top-end. When he gets done racing, I'm pretty sure he lets off quickly. Would this 'bark' the turbos like you guys said earlier, and send the whole works sky-hi? BTW, this truck is daily driven.

The amount of boost is not what causes turbine failure!!!! (clue #1)


I'll let you guys think about that for awhile.


Check back later for more CLUES.


CPMac, I couldn't have explained it any better, but I think some still just don't GET IT?

Amric I understand wanting to know how and why but I sometimes refrain from posting too much to keep from using a lot of space on something that others don't care about. When asked specifics I (if I really know) will explain to the best of my knowledge.

OK guys, read through all the posts, and have more questions now than before. First one is, how come the turbos let go before anything else? You would think that an intercooler hose or something would give before a turbo. Second is regarding twin turbos. Saw a video of an F350 with a Cummins equipped with twins running the 1/4 mile in 11.42 seconds. Guy runs about 100 pounds of boost at the top-end. When he gets done racing, I'm pretty sure he lets off quickly. Would this 'bark' the turbos like you guys said earlier, and send the whole works sky-hi? BTW, this truck is daily driven.





BY CHANCE WAS VIDEO SHOT AT THE DRAGWAY IN LAS VEGAS?? I HAVE A VID OF A F350 RUNNING THAT SAME TIME AS WELL-------FAST EVEN FOR A FORD

Rickles 04,


There are much easier and much cheaper ways of making your wastegate adjustable than Gale Bank's way, but they don't come with a stickerhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


stringer,


Turbos as most pumps can be designed to operate at different pressures. Our stock turbo just isn't designed to operate at those pressures/RPM's. BIG turbos that can safely deliver huge boost usually exhibit so much lag that they would be unusable for every day driving. Watch a tractor pull video. When the fuel is first poured to it, the smoke billows, but there isn't much pulling yet. It's when the smoke begins to thin a little is when the power begins to come on. The time interval between these things is when the turbo is spooling up and is lag. Twin turbos can help eliminate some of this lag if that is why a twin turbo setup was chosen. One way is to have a small turbo initally building boost then as the airflow demand gets above the smaller turbo's map the big turbo is just getting into it's. Or you can compond the turbos and get real big boost. That's what it sounds like is done on the Ford you speak of.


Due to inertia, big turbo's are slow to build boost where small quick reacting turbos are limited in the amount of boost they can produce.

Okay, (stupid) question time:


I've got the Banks Stinger kit. After installation (by shop), max boost dropped from ~23psi to ~19psi after a few months. So I've put 3 more turns on Banks wastegate, and I've again got max boost psi at ~22. Doing this increased the boost required to just run down the highway (~2psi changed to ~6psi at 70mph is what I noted over the holidays). I'm debating giving it a few more turns, after reading the boost levels here.


1.) Is there any correlation between boost and economy when cruising? I like economy. :)


2.) Will I see even more boost by cranking down on the wastegate more, or am I approaching what I can expect out of my Banks power chip (for fuel delivery to produce boost)?


3.) I'm checking boost under full acceleration, unloaded. Could I see more boost if I tried full acceleration with a serious load?


4.) How accurate are these gauges? Should I check in the shop at what PSI the wastegate is actually opening at, or is this not reasonable thing to do?


5.) Am I honestly going to attain any real performance gain (acceleration and towing) after tweaking the wastegate some more?





--RobEdited by: ryeguy

Rob,


I too have the Stinger Kit and I called the tech services because I didn't really notice a difference. The tech guy said that the stinger is mostly a top end mod, i.e. more power when under significant load as in towing a trailer. I sorta excepted this but wasn't convinced. I went and found a very long hill on the outskirts of town and made sure I was rolling along about 45 mph at the base of the hill. I then squeezed the loud pedal and the truck kicked down to 4th and my boost went to about 24.5 psi. It was really turnin' on. Previosly I had only seen as much as 17 - 19 psi. Also make sure the truck is good and hot. Banks ain't kiddin' about only working at 80% operating temp. This isn't anywhere near what some of these Kamakazi guys are running http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Nuke.gif, but it's good for the extra oomph when towing.


JP

Oops, I should clarify a bit.


What made me first play with the wastegate a few months ago, was when I was towing (combined some 20k#) through mountain passes, all I could get was around 19psi boost, instead of the advertised ~24psi boost.


After adjusting the wastegate, I was up around ~21psi just gunning it here and there. Then I found another l-o-n-g hill and that's where I hit 22-23 psi unloaded. I've never seen the north side of 24psi, regardless of load or hill or anything.


How much boost do you see when cruising on the highway unloaded?


--Rob

Rob boost level cruising depends on everything right down to driving style and wind direction. Adjusting your wastegate to produce more boost will not make any difference in hp the only change will be slightly lower egt's.

Rob,


I'll try to answer your questions. A properly functioning wastegate is like a light switch, not like a dimmer switch. I.E. it should make no difference whatsoever at cruise. It should open at the set point and should not open at all until very close to that point. If adjusting your wastegate makes a difference in boost at cruise, then there's something wrong with it. I see somewhere around 6 to 7 psi at around 65 mph or so, but as CPMac said those are very variable numbers and you can see much higher with a load and not even realise you have much of a load, wind, slight up hill etc. I differ with CPMac in that there is no increase in power. If there is more air in a given space and the same amount of fuel is added then the pressure increase is greater in the cylinder with the greater amount of air. It's just that with a stock turbo if you increase the boost very much you will be operating out of it's map. In other words the power lost in driving the turbo will exceed the power that the turbo increases the eng. by. A way of thinking about turbo engines that may make sense to you is they are in effect variable displacement engines. At 0 boost you have essentially a 6 liter engine. At 15 lbs of boost you have a 12 liter engine. It's really not that clear cut, pumping losses, heated incoming air charge etc., but you get the idea. I have no idea how accurate your boost gauge is, you could have a leak in it etc. You can supply regulated shop air to your wastegate and set it very accurately that way. It shouldn't move at all until close to it's set point and then move pretty quickly after that. Or if you can get your hands on a tech II or auto tap or something you should be able to verify the accuracy of your gauge.

A64 it's ok to disagree with me but you shouldn't do so and then use the next two lines to confirm my point. More air will only make more hp if you have excess fuel. Also what happens to the air when the turbo is out of it's operating range? Clue hot air doesn't make hp.

CPMac, didn't mean to say that more air will only make more power if there is excess fuel. more air=more power. As with all things there is a point of diminishing returns and eventually pumping losses and having to build the engine for higher cylinder pressure etc. will overcome any increase in power. You have to be in the map of the particular turbo though. yes there will be a point where you decrease air density even though pressure is higher. Air density is the key of course, pressure is not nearly as important. The # of air molecules you can get in there is the key. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the engine is a balanced system. To get the maximum gain it's best to maintain a semblance of that balance. Yes I believe that by increasing the amount of air you will get more power, just there's not much room to do that just by jacking up the boost of the stock turbo. You should be able to get more power by replacing the turbo and as you state maybe the aftercooler as well. You would spend far more money than by simply buying a juice box and probably not get anywhere near as much power and probably end up with a lot of turbo lag etc. Ideally as we increase the amount of fuel we should increase the amount of air as well, it's just many times cheaper to increase fuel. To get back to the point of this thread I think that 30lbs. is around where you begin to become inefficient, 35lbs is a safe transient # and much above you may even be losing power for the reasons you state, or you may not if there's enough excess fuel present. But you may be rolling the dice as well.


On edit, when my truck was stock in 01 I disabled my wastegate and still only got 23 lbs of boost. It seems that on my truck anyway that the stock fuel flow wouldn't provide enough heat to drive the turbo much above the stock setting anyway. This was empty and on level ground as well, didn't try loaded.Edited by: a64pilot

Gas and diesel are 2 different animals. When a gas motor runs overly rich it looses power and will run cold. When a Diesel runs rich it gets hotter and makes more power. That is why the little modules are so effective on the diesel trucks vs. the gas trucks. If you do want to maintain Federal emmision standards and make more power then you will have to increase air flow vs. just increasing fuel. The liters or displacement will never change like wise the static compression ratio will never change. The thing that changed when you make more boost is the air desity. This will change your clyinder pressure. Buy increasing the air density you can add even more fuel. If you run big boost then you need a power module with less timing and more fuel than compared to the ones we put on our stockers. The Banks stinger system incorparates a adjustable wastegate with a power module. It is a very clean burning torquey set up. If you run 40 pounds of boost I would bet you need a power programmer with at least 10% less timing and 10% more fuel than a stock Edge or Quad.

Bronco, I'm making no comparisons between spark and compression engines. I'm aware that gasoline engines need to maintain around a 14 to 1 fuel ratio. I'm also aware that diesels run much leaner than that or if they didn't then adding more air without adding more fuel would obviously lose power, not add it. Yes adding more fuel increases the power in a diesel, up to a point, because the unburned fuel causes a lot of smoke that's objectionable for what most of us use our trucks for. It also adds heat. If you don't mind me comparing engine types then a diesel has more in common with a turbine than with a gas engine in cooling charestics. You see a turbine uses excess air flow for cooling. Excess meaning more air than is required for combustion, just as a diesel does. My point is just this. It would be nice as we crank up the fuel flow if we could crank up the air flow as well to keep things cool and eliminate the smoke too. Just I believe that in this case the stock fuel system can increase fuel flow more than the stock air induction system can and there is a point where the turbo is at risk and a point where the stock turbo becomes inefficient as well. I don't mean anything beyond that, just trying to explain why I believe that. I'm not trying to say if you block off your wastegate you will see any siginficant power increase or anything like that. To gain more power just by increasing boost would require a substantual cash outlay and would not give you an economical power boost. IMHO I have no idea what the stock turbo's map is, but I do believe that Isuzu correctly matched the turbo and engine in stock trim. Somebody said about a 20% safety factor and I believe they are about right, that's all.

I am learning alot about these trucks everyday. I do know what black smoke is when I see it. It would be nice to avoid it. I am afraid somebody is going to have to stepup and put a new camshaft in there D-max. Thats all there is to it. Edited by: Bronco

A64 you can talk more b.s. than anyone I don't know. You are trying to wiggle out but you can't. This thread talks about max safe boost of the Duramax not any other engine. If you want to talk about making more hp with more air and an aftermarket turbo then fine but until you brought it up we were talking about stock turbo's. I will say it again! You WILL NOT see a hp improvement by blocking the wastegate hose or by the Banks actuator. You will likely see a reduction in egt's and possibly a broken turbo but no extra hp. That is partially because when the turbo is out of it's efficient operating range it heats the air reducing hp more than it is helping.

CPMac..... nothing wrong with any of these posts, try to lighten up a bit. There are people on this board who do not have your wealth of experience and knowledge on this subject and posts like these help to answer their questions. If we slam the door shut on people trying to contribute to the forum, we will alienate noobies from asking legit questions as well. We don't always tell newbies to do a forum search if the question has been asked 50 times already; we try to answer the question and then redirect them to another post dealing with the subject.


Thanks


J

It seems from my own personal experience that anything above 30-33lbs(pending on day) you see no gains in hp. You do however see slightly lower egts, but imho not worth the risk of grenading the turbo for maybe a 100F drop in temp. max. Thats just me, egts do not bother me, as in pulling +1600F(gauge only goes to 1600) is a norm. and all is fine so far that i can see. This is all in short bursts like sled pulling(10-20 secs) or 1/4 mile(11-12 secs).


Anything over 30-33lbs your risk outways your gain. Later Jeremyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Ok, I mucked up my laptop and am using the computer at the motel I'm staying at so I don't know how often I'm going to check up on the page until next week when I'm home. I'm tiring of this anyway. 22-23 lbs or so is stock. Most agree you will see benifit, HP wise until about 30 lbs. Most seem to agree that above 30 lbs may not be safe. The rest of you I don't care about.

A64 it must have been your laptop. That is the most intelligent post I have seen you write. I agree completely. Edited by: CPMac

I've got my wastegate plugged. The most boost I ever see towing is 32psi, but most times I can rip up any hill as fast as I want with my trailer and not exceed 1200* or 24-26psi boost.


Since my Edge Juice with Attitude (usually on level 2 or 3) is adding more fuel, I'm sure the increased boost (from 20 psi to 26psi) is helping to burn it more efficiently, keeping EGTs lower, eliminating smoke and making a little more power under those conditions. If you ever see black smoke rolling out, it's a sign that you need more air.


Those 3 reasons are good enough for me to perform the free modification to my truck. I guarantee you that I will not break a turbo while smoothly driving my truck towing a load at those boost levels. If I ever stack boxes or add enough fuel to make over 35psi in this condition, I'll reconnect the wastegate.


Those of you who have barked your turbos, broken turbos or are operating above about 35psi are solely to blame for whatever happens. If you're racing, sled pulling or putting the turbo in a surging condition, expect things to break; it's all part of the sport.

SoCal your truck would make more than 20psi with the wastegate connected with the box on.

You're right, but once the wastegate is opened at 20psi, it's bleeding off boost and anything I see over 20 is just what didn't get bled off.


Since I'm currently not making too much boost, I'm trying not to "waste" any, so to speak. But if I do add more fuel, I'll certainly reconnect the WG.

Who all makes adjustable wastegates other than Banks? Are there some that are more affordable? Better?


Thanks!

YOUR LOCAL HARDWARE STORE?

JRmac,


Lets cut to the chase. A blow apart diagram plus scematics and part numbers would appreciated! Just kiddin. Could you give me the short version?Edited by: Bronco

Ok here it is plain and simple. If you unhook or plug the wastegate line and go for a drive in your duramax and you have enough fuel to make too much boost (approx. 35psi, varies by truck) this is what happens. When you get to a certain point the exhaust psi will force the wastegate open completely (versus opening slowly with boost psi feeding the actuator) and dump a lot of exhaust psi causing the wastegate to quickly close. This all happens so fast you can't let off the throttle fast enough or even know it is happening. Most times this happens someone already had the line plugged and installes a bigger box and the first few times through the gears the turbo will grenade. I have seen this happen several times and it will happen very quick. So I'll say it once again, there is no benefit to plugging the wastegate line and a potential hazzard so don't do it.


JUST HAPPENS THIS WAY

Bronco, I'm back at work now and have a computer again so I'll try to explain. If you put a "T" in you waste gate line and have the open end of the "T" connected to an easily adjustable air valve in the cockpit, like a brass aquarium air valve you are able to bleed off the pressure that the wastegate actuator "sees". You can adjust the amount of air that is bled off and therefore adjust the boost pressure that the wastegate will actuate at. In other words you can make it so that it takes 30 psi to equal 23 psi at the wastegate, there by having an adjustable wastegate that is factory installed. If warrenty was an issue I wouldn't cut my stock line, I would replace it and keep the stock one in one piece. If you have your boost gauge plugged in the sense line, be sure the valve is down stream of the boost gauge so you still read actual boost. I wouldn't plug my wastegate IMHO or disable it with a turnbuckle either.


BTW, I didn't think of this idea, it was explained to me by PEANUTGRWR a couple of years ago in another forum.

A Peanut mod. on my truck? I don't know about that!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif


Stupid Question. Does the Waste Gate operate off of vacum or pressure. Is it normally open or closed? Would a variable waste gate perform better.( Not fully closed or fully open, able to constanly slide)

The wastegate on the dmax operates off of pressure and is normally closed. Boost overides the spring in the actuator and opens it.

Bronco, I'm back at work now and have a computer again so I'll try to explain. If you put a "T" in you waste gate line and have the open end of the "T" connected to an easily adjustable air valve in the cockpit, like a brass aquarium air valve you are able to bleed off the pressure that the wastegate actuator "sees". You can adjust the amount of air that is bled off and therefore adjust the boost pressure that the wastegate will actuate at. In other words you can make it so that it takes 30 psi to equal 23 psi at the wastegate, there by having an adjustable wastegate that is factory installed. If warrenty was an issue I wouldn't cut my stock line, I would replace it and keep the stock one in one piece. If you have your boost gauge plugged in the sense line, be sure the valve is down stream of the boost gauge so you still read actual boost. I wouldn't plug my wastegate IMHO or disable it with a turnbuckle either.


BTW, I didn't think of this idea, it was explained to me by PEANUTGRWR a couple of years ago in another forum.


1: PLUGED LINE (very bad idea)


2: T-N-LINE (if bleeded too much same results as #1)


3: TURNBUCKLE (best idea if you can't resist messing with the wastegate)

Thanks for the info. I have been slowly piecing together a Banks Stiger System. It contains a big head wastegate. I might end up not buying the wastegate or buying the stinger module.I can buld my own wastegate (if needed?) and I have to get a module that is adjustable. This info. really helps me become an informed consumer. Can't afford to buy evrything twice.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Ryeguy,


The Banks Bighead is the biggest waste of money you can ever spend.......i put it on my truck for about a month with every possible adjustment i could make and only got at the most 19 pounds of boost.....i put the stock one back on.........i got an instant 25.6 pounds of boost........i know u guys that have them are swearing by them but the two stinger kits i see that posted are not even getting over 20 pounds...i think this proves my theory......if anyone is interested in mine it's on ebay with no reserve......

Hey Hemi......didn't someone tell you not to waste your money on that?......hhhhhmmmmmmhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

yeah but i never know what to believe from you........getting any solid useful info from your top secret ass is like pullin teethhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

yeah but i never know what to believe from you........getting any solid useful info from your top secret ass is like pullin teethhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





He's a Secret Agent I tell you ...


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif