Typically speaking,
Block, tanked and magnafluxed, how much?
Is it cheaper to do the block and heads at the same time?

Has anyone done this?
seems like the first step for a build?
Or, no one want's to admit how much they got ripped for?:p:
Walked into a shop the other day, guy say's $140 to have the block, tanked and magnafluxed. Does this sound right?

you don't wanna know what i payed.... lmao.. i had block and heads tanked. (heads dissasembled too) polished crank, measured block and crank. found cracks :( .. they didn't have the bill done up and i was in a hurry at closing time. $68. took second block in and it went about the same but the block was good so i paid for cam bearing install, reboring and line boring. they musta spent about 4 hrs doing the cam bearings as they had to keep shaving them to make cam fit and i got charged an hr.. 140 doesn't seem bad at about $100/hr shop rates around here and the amount of time removing things before hot tanking

Ok, thanks, boy your post raises alot of Q's.
Why did you (don't forget,this is my first rebuild), why did you have them do the cam bearings? Is this something better left for the pro's?
I have most everything off now, and was planning on removing everything but the small threaded plugs. Do they need those out too?
Should I take my crank in at the same time? I'm not sure it even needs to be polished, it's been sitting in my garage 3 years, a little dusty, but no signs of rust. I think he said $60 to polish the crank (BTW I think I'm going to find a different shop, I said "diesel" and he looked like a deer in the headlights).
Guess I should take the cam in also with the block. Its been wrapped up in a cabinet, it should also be in good shape.

most of those plugs, i let them do them, their usually in tight. i had cam and crank in to be measured and checked.

cam bearings require special tools to install and remove. can't remember if hot tanking hurts them or not

Goin' with all new bearings.

Cam bearings are removed prior to hot tanking, to remove all the grit and foreign material behind and in the lube passages. A good machine shop will remove all the galley plugs as well.

The tools to install cam bearings are just expensive enough that it doesn't warrant buying your own, unless you plan to install lots of them and charge the customer accordingly.

I have the machine shop do this task, it's cheaper in the short run.

Fred, whereabouts in OR are you?

Scott Mills, east of 213, between Silverton and Molalla.

Never heard of it, but I've heard molalla is kinda purdy.

It's a small old lumber town, in the foothills. Very beautiful, until it became a bedroom community for the big cities and the yuppies bring their flower pots and big ideas! Us rednecks would just as soon it stayed like it was but they say it's progress. Fortunately, I'm outside the city limits, on a small farm.

"If you can't stand on your front porch and take a 'whiz', you're too close to town."

So, back on topic, I think I'll take the block, crank and cam with me. Have the block; tanked and mag'ed, line honed, and new cam bearings installed. Polish the crank.
How am I dion' so far?
Cylinders? Is it best to have them bored every time? I really don't want to spend unnecessary money, but I don't want to "skimp" either.
Do I need the cam polished as well?
I've heard not to turn the crank because its cast and already weak enough, but, does this apply to the cam as well?

cam should have almost no wear cuz its using roller lifters. my rebuild kit came with a new cam. don't turn the crank. the surface is coated and its not a good idea. have the bores measured to determine what you need. even with very little wear, the bores get tapered and then need to bored true again. then you'll know what size to order parts in

also if your gonna get a girdle(which is a good idear) have that put on before the mains are line honed.

Girdle, hmmm.
I wasn't thinking girdle.
I wasn't thinking I needed a girdle.
hmmmm.

Girdle, hmmm.
I wasn't thinking girdle.
I wasn't thinking I needed a girdle.
hmmmm.


The main girdle is not necessary, but it is cheap insurance, especially if you plan on running higher than factory boost levels.

I do plan on running a Banks on this engine.
sooo, anyone got a pic or a link to a decent girdle

Boy oh boy, i guess ol' Jdemaris really is gone. used to be you couldn't mention a crank without him saying not to turn it. Too bad he had a lot of good info

He's prolly out findin' eggs!

This is one I used:

http://www.dieselservices.com/html/gm_diesel/6_5_Turbo_Diesel/gm-diesel-special/stud_girdle_kit_p78.cfm_kit_p78.cfm







http://www.dieselservices.com/images/GalleryImages/407/medium.jpg


Here's some installation pics courtesy of Arveetek:

http://rides.webshots.com/album/286393940AoOzqp

not to highjack anyone thread here but i dont see a reason to make another.....

what do you guys usually spend on a 6.2 rebuild? im talkin all new bearings, pistons and all the other lil thinks like gaskets and seals?

i can do all the work other then boring it out and stuff, shop rate round here is $80/hr

I don't know but I'm gonna find out. I'm starting my build soon, and I'm gonna post it all right here on DP. Pics, prices,... yadda, yadda,... I'm even going to ask the shop if they will let me take photos of the work they do, while they are doing it.
It's going to be a slow build due to $$$, but I hope it turns out to be an informative thread for guys like me who have never built an engine before. I'm actually looking forward to all of the advice I may receive on this site. As long as consensus agrees with my wallet, that's most likely the route I'll choose.
I'll have to get a sticker for the back window that say's "built by DieselPlace"!
So far I'm looking at about $700 worth of shop work, $750 for a build kit, $300 for a pump, that' all I've priced so far. I'm going try to stay under $2000.

here are pics of the girdle that we used in our motor........

the dsg girdle is alright, but its the studs that are awesome....

also our girdle is all 5 caps, and still fits under OEM oil pan...

That's really nice! I like that. In fact that engine is really nice, but I don't think I'll be able to afford anything as nice as your engine. Mine probably won't put out the power yours will (or, does). I like the idea of crossing the 5 caps though. I was at a DSG site and read that a girdle eliminates the bla bla bla "while torquing the main caps". Seem as though the problem is in the assembly procedure. Does the girdle have an effect after the engine is assembled? The site didn't say if the girdle has an effect on a running engine, only an effect during the assembly. So I guess my Q is, do I need something that beefy for an engine that is going pretty much stock with the addition of a banks, or will the 3 hole girdle have enough strength for my engine?

The DSG girdle is a bolt-on it will be plenty, the five cap is custom built for extreme conditions.....:eek:

The beauty of diesel's is that power is made simply by increasing fuel and boost proportionally...... :D

i want me one of those 5 main girdles. everyone here knows i could put it to good use :D

for you, putting on a main girdle is like putting a cast on an amputated leg. lol

lol. now thats being a little too harsh lol. im sure a girdle like that would keep my 6.2 block together a little bit longer eh?

no, not really . lol

So can anyone answer the Q? does it have an effect on a runnig engine or is it simply for assembly purposes?

well ya, lol. it slows down the twisting action on the mains when running, theoretically. look at cracked blocks, they crack running, not being assembled

Had a couple of guys comment that our 6.5L for the ''Pugg'' seems to run quieter, seems to have not only strengthened bottom end, but changed internal harmonics of motor...... good or bad???? We'll let you know in a couple of years.....LOL.

The idea is to have girdle installed for all machining, then re-torque in assembly. Ideal is to have head plates and tranny plate also...... this is less commonly done. The DSG girdle is sold to bolt-on as is (running motor), the material is not strong enough to deform the block, yet ''ties together'' the three center main bearing caps to reduce torsional flexing.:)

Now you're tryin' to talk me into head plates and tranny plates, and I don't even know what those are!

Now you're tryin' to talk me into head plates and tranny plates, and I don't even know what those are!

They are motor building aids, not at all necessary for our purposes......
they pre-load the decks the same way your heads would and the tranny plate pre-loads rear of motor like a bellhousing.... totally unnecessary, unless you are looking for 500hp+++ and 6000rpm++++........:eek:

p.s. just trying to break 500 posts tonite.....crack... crack...:p:

have fun with that. you got 94 posts left. and me mr post whore hasnt done 94 in a full day let alone one night.

Keep chasing you around from thread to thread, we're gonna get close......

Hey don't I hear your momma calling you.....:p:

Ok, so no head plate or tranny plate. (that's just crazy talk!)
Girdle before the line hone. I'm leaning toward making one similar to turbonator's, across 5 holes, but turbo's looks way beefy. Think I"ll start with some 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1/4" angle (do you think 1/4" is stout enough?), and cut it down from there.
So I think that takes care of the crank. Please let me know if i"m missing something.
On to the cam, It's not new but I don't see any unusual wear. Just wipe it down and stick it in?

Ok, so no head plate or tranny plate. (that's just crazy talk!)
Girdle before the line hone. I'm leaning toward making one similar to turbonator's, across 5 holes, but turbo's looks way beefy. Think I"ll start with some 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1/4" angle (do you think 1/4" is stout enough?), and cut it down from there.
So I think that takes care of the crank. Please let me know if i"m missing something.
On to the cam, It's not new but I don't see any unusual wear. Just wipe it down and stick it in?


your cam looks fine, wiper down and put it in, it should be fine the angle you have chosen, it takes time to get it all to fit nice, just keep at it.....

go and check mikeyvons build, he gives all the centre to centre measures for the holes in the girdle, you need to keep your bolt holes as close to the upright of the angle as possible in order for the stock pan to fit...:D

Turbo, I noticed that you used bolts, not studs. Did you get longer bolts? do you think there is a significant difference between bolts and studs?

ttt

for sure there is a huge difference, with bolts it is a pulling, and with studs its pushing, we used bolts again because of time and $$$$$, we need this truck in the middle of april to work, we just did not have time to chase down the studs, maybe next time......:D

Did you use the same bolts or did you get longer ones?

I stopped at another shop yesterday, got some prices.
Block:
Tanked- $80
Mag'ed- $35
Line honed- $175
Cylinders:
Hone- $70
Bore- (if necc.) $145
Crank:
Tanked, mag'ed, and polished- $100
Rod (ea):
Sized, bushing, (?) $30
Went to this guy's shop, highly recommended. Been in the business for years. Used to do racing stuff, so he says he has all the high dollar tools. People from around the world send him engines of all different kinds.
Guess I'm spoiled. The shop back home, you'd walk in, each project was in a separate cart, tucked in to specially designed parts holders. The benches were neatly organized, tools put away, floor swept,... The two shops I've been to so far, WAY different. I'm not sure how they know what's what? Parts everywhere. Benches cluttered. One shop you could barely walk through, so many blocks sitting hard on the floor (no, not neatly arranged), and only one guy in the shop.
My shop ain't no beauty queen, but I only have one engine to keep track of, and I ain't trying to make a livin' out of there!
I have a couple more shops to research.

that seems a bit high $

Another Q, someone suggested having the blocked "decked". Seems you're messin' with the space at the top of the cylinder to me. (I don't know the tech. term for that space from the top of the piston at TDC to the head). I guess you can make up distance with gasket thickness?

thats the reason for going to a 10 thou gasket. it should be resurfaced so the gasket seals better

Thank you! Can one get gaskets in any thickness? or is .10 over my gasket to be?

.010 is the gasket unless your going custom. the shop will probably measure the deck to check how true it is and then clean it up, removing the least possible material

So whatever they take off of the block, use a .10 gasket, and it is what it is.
Easy enough.

Hi, we used a longer bolt to have enough length in block. Not sure of exact length, they were custom made from new head bolts, cut down to length. Measure your old bolt and add thickness of your girdle. We thought about studs, but the head studs from ARP, even though the threads were same size and pitch, the barrel was larger diameter. To use would have required machining larger hole in main bearing caps.

ARP does the studs fro the DSG girdles, and told me that with size, pitch and length they could send us studs. We let dollars and time decide for us...

The Cometic stainless gaskets can be ordered in any thickness that is required. Although they are pricey...... FelPro makes a .010'' over thickness gasket that we suggest everyone to use, decking or not, because it brings compression ratio down abit.:cool:

Thank you!
I hit another shop this morning, bit of a drive, but top of the list so far.
Block:
Tanked $50
Decked $120
Cylinders;
Honed $65
Bored $145
Crank:
Cleaned and polished $40
This shop was clean and orderly. Pretty small though, no big deal. Guy was "matter of fact", no braggin' up himself, or showin' off stuff people brought to him.
I like that.
Got one more to check before I decide.

Here's the block and one head. I'm looking at the water ports. there is one at the front of the head, but not on the block. Anyone have any info on this?
What about the GM "fix" involving a plug in one of the water ports on the red block?

BTW that's a 660 block with 162 heads

Here's the block and one head. I'm looking at the water ports. there is one at the front of the head, but not on the block. Anyone have any info on this?
What about the GM "fix" involving a plug in one of the water ports on the red block?

Do a search for Detroitdiesel's thread, ''Do I have a red block?''; in this thread, Jdemaris and diaric discussed and explained this.....happy trails.....:)

Thank you! That is good info, I remember that thread. But I think I'm looking for more, Like where is this "plug" supposed to go? Did the other years just open up the passage in the block? I have another red block that I'm confident is all original, but I'm using it right now, or I'd tear it apart just to see what it looks like. Obviously the block would be the same, but I'd like to see the "red heads", look for a plug.

IIRC, other years, they changed the head and made the gaskets better

We got red block on stand now, injectors are course thread, haven't pulled a head yet. They look to have been changed, (got nothing better to do), so I'll go pull and send a couple of pics......:D

Have everything removed, coffee-time then pull the heads.
The block is also a 660 except these heads are #1402890.
These are the heads with course thread injectors.:D

Will post a couple of pics, then back to ''PUGG'',
Jeff has exhaust almost all heat taped.:)

Okay, hopefully this will help you out.

New Thread; ''GM water jacket block-off''.

those are some cool pics! thank you! But you didn't have to tear your engine apart just for me!

You just kicked me in the ass a little, (saved Jeff the trouble), it is verification for us also. Looks like a gasket kit and red block goes back together. This is fifth one we tore down, first with no cracks in pistons......:D

Napa quote:
pistons, rings, rod bearings, main bearings, gaskets, cam, lifters, oil pump, soft plugs, $1100.00
Don't know if I need the pump, cam or lifters.

pump yes, always change on a rebuild. lifters and cam are a maybe, very little wear cuz their a roller system. more of a lifter issue is the hydrolics wearing out

What do you think about the price?
Couldn't get any info on brands other than felpro gaskets. But I've heard napa kits have good quality parts.
And it doesn't come with timing chain.
I'm only assuming no head gaskets, I could be wrong though.

What do you think about the price?
Couldn't get any info on brands other than felpro gaskets. But I've heard napa kits have good quality parts.
And it doesn't come with timing chain.
I'm only assuming no head gaskets, I could be wrong though.


Don't know about NAPA, but the Fel-Pro head gaskets are always separate from the "head gasket kit". IOW, the head gasket includes everything you need to do the heads except the head gaskets themselves, and the new bolts. Probably because you'd want to spec the bore and gasket thickness for your particular engine.

I wouldn't use any head gasket but Fel-Pro, Cometic, or Victor-Reinz.

ARP Head stud sets can be had for $120 + shipping. PM me if you can't find the outfit in North Dakota (!) that sells them for this price. They're around $180 most everywhere else. New bolts cost about $60, so it's a cheap step up. And since most blocks have to be decked due to the erosion around the end cylinders, seems to me that studs are a no-brainer. Just seal them well with Teflon paste to prevent water jacket leaks.

A used timing chain is allowed about 0.8" of total deflection at midpoint between gears. A new one should measure 0.5" or less. Chains are cheap... I think a new Cloyes set is around $80 or so?