I was reading about the new LML and was wondering if you will be able to delete/block off/shut off the emissions system on these new trucks once they are out of warranty or while they are still under warranty?

Do it whenever you want but, your warranty ends when you do it.

This round is going to be tougher. It may take aftermarket a while to figure out everything, but like always they will get it. Dealers are not going to be as cool with modifying these trucks, too much with this next step of emissions. Not just a filter anymore.

It will be more involved, but the aftermarket will get there. As said above, kiss the warranty goodbye.

if you will be able to delete/block off/shut off the emissions system on these new trucks?

well the trucks are not even out yet/no ones even seen them yet, so I think your guess is as good as anyone else's. ;)

What would be the point of deleting the urea. It doesn't add or take away power. It just gets injected into the exhaust. I would do the DPF delete but keep the urea.

What would be the point of deleting the urea. It doesn't add or take away power. It just gets injected into the exhaust. I would do the DPF delete but keep the urea.


One less system that can put the truck into limp mode while on the road

One less system that can put the truck into limp mode while on the road

x2 and less money you have to spend.

What would be the point of deleting the urea. It doesn't add or take away power. It just gets injected into the exhaust. I would do the DPF delete but keep the urea.

One less system that can put the truck into limp mode while on the road

One less system and either way, the computer is going to be involved. If a tuner (EFI Live likely) is addressing a DPF delete, I'd bet it will also address the urea by default. I've heard the new system will be able to tell what fluid is in that tank (water vs. urea for example) by specific gravity. Something the tuner will have to trick the computer for anyway.

It will definitely be possible. Spartan already has a full delete kit for the new Ford 6.7, they have a video on youtube.

It will definitely be possible. Spartan already has a full delete kit for the new Ford 6.7, they have a video on youtube.


From watching that video there is no way to tell if it's deleted. The DPF is for sure but who knows if the urea is deleted.....unless it says in the video or description of course!

Its just hardware and electronics if you have the tools and expertise you will be able to do watever you want

Well if the UREA set-up is like the UREA set-up on the Ford we may have a large problem. Myself and a Buddy were at the Local large ford dealer and they had a 2 of the new 011' HD F series in and utoh!
Right next to the fuel cap is a blue knob that seemed to be the urea additive thing. If chevy did anything like ford did I bet it is way to complicated to delete it, or it will mess with comps so bad it wont run. But who knows. Thats just my assumption and I really dont know much about newer emission standards and etc..

Again why try to delete it?
It doesn't rob any power.
People will spend far more time and effort in trying to delete it than they would ever get back in putting urea in the tank. It'll probably cost~$20 to fill the tank about twice a year. 40 bucks a year is pretty trivial in the cost of the truck and certainly not justified in the cost of trying to remove the system.

I think this falls under the "one less thing to break" category.

From watching that video there is no way to tell if it's deleted. The DPF is for sure but who knows if the urea is deleted.....unless it says in the video or description of course!

Sorry, should've been more specific. That video is a clip from Spartan Diesel, saw it on a post on powerstroke nation. Here's the thread. http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58826

Again why try to delete it?
It doesn't rob any power.
People will spend far more time and effort in trying to delete it than they would ever get back in putting urea in the tank. It'll probably cost~$20 to fill the tank about twice a year. 40 bucks a year is pretty trivial in the cost of the truck and certainly not justified in the cost of trying to remove the system.

Fill the tank about twice a year......where the **** did you get those numbers from? They are saying it needs to be refilled every 5000 miles, so unless you drive less than 10k a year, your gonna be filling it a lot more than twice a year.;) It will probably cost $20 to fill it.....again where are you getting these numbers from? I can take wild guesses too, but I don't want to look stupid.

Well if the UREA set-up is like the UREA set-up on the Ford we may have a large problem. Myself and a Buddy were at the Local large ford dealer and they had a 2 of the new 011' HD F series in and utoh!
Right next to the fuel cap is a blue knob that seemed to be the urea additive thing. If chevy did anything like ford did I bet it is way to complicated to delete it, or it will mess with comps so bad it wont run. But who knows. Thats just my assumption and I really dont know much about newer emission standards and etc..


The ford 6.7 delete is a done deal. Just waiting on spartan for release. That truck sounds wicked! Let the problems get sorted out over the next year and my 08 cummins may get traded.........too early to tell at this point.

Fill the tank about twice a year......where the **** did you get those numbers from? They are saying it needs to be refilled every 5000 miles, so unless you drive less than 10k a year, your gonna be filling it a lot more than twice a year.;) It will probably cost $20 to fill it.....again where are you getting these numbers from? I can take wild guesses too, but I don't want to look stupid.

Well just going on averages. Average driver drives ~ 12K miles a year, I had heard 5-6K miles on the urea tank, math works out to twice a year.

Urea cost should be less than $3/ gallon (I've read anywhere from $1/gal to $5/ gal), I did a generous $4/ gal for my $20 to fill the tank.

For the sake of arguement lets say I was optimistic and it costs the average driver $100/ year to keep using urea. Still not gonna be cost effective to get a Urea delete kit, to accomplish NOTHING except making the truck pollute more.

Well just going on averages. Average driver drives ~ 12K miles a year, I had heard 5-6K miles on the urea tank, math works out to twice a year.

Urea cost should be less than $3/ gallon (I've read anywhere from $1/gal to $5/ gal), I did a generous $4/ gal for my $20 to fill the tank.

For the sake of arguement lets say I was optimistic and it costs the average driver $100/ year to keep using urea. Still not gonna be cost effective to get a Urea delete kit, to accomplish NOTHING except making the truck pollute more.

More reliable.

I agree trying to delete it is stupid and is against federal law. I have had my Audi Q7 3.0 TDi for almost a year now. It uses urea and holds 12 gallons. I can go more than 10,000 miles on that 12 gallons.

For those who think that they dont want the chance of running out and going into limp mode again. How many times a year do you run your truck out of diesel? If you run out of urea and ignore the messages telling you more than a thousand miles before it is to run out and then the 500 mile to go message and then the 100 mile to go message...Face it, you are in idiot.

My Audi prompts you at 1500 miles, then 500 miles, then 100 miles, then if you run out while driving it will not limp or quite, but once you turn it off it wont start until the urea is added. If you cant comply with this I dont even want to share the road with you.

You want a new truck with lots of power, this is the price you pay, live with it. I like power, I like diesels. I HATE seeing modded diesels smoking all over town giving diesels a bad name. Americans dislike diesels because they think they are loud and dirty, you're just perpetuating this. The new generation diesel cars could help us use so much less oil, but people are slow to buy them except for those that follow diesels.

Just my .02 cents

Or just modify it, so it's not a POS stock truck :)

I agree trying to delete it is stupid and is against federal law. I have had my Audi Q7 3.0 TDi for almost a year now. It uses urea and holds 12 gallons. I can go more than 10,000 miles on that 12 gallons.

For those who think that they dont want the chance of running out and going into limp mode again. How many times a year do you run your truck out of diesel? If you run out of urea and ignore the messages telling you more than a thousand miles before it is to run out and then the 500 mile to go message and then the 100 mile to go message...Face it, you are in idiot.

My Audi prompts you at 1500 miles, then 500 miles, then 100 miles, then if you run out while driving it will not limp or quite, but once you turn it off it wont start until the urea is added. If you cant comply with this I dont even want to share the road with you.

You want a new truck with lots of power, this is the price you pay, live with it. I like power, I like diesels. I HATE seeing modded diesels smoking all over town giving diesels a bad name. Americans dislike diesels because they think they are loud and dirty, you're just perpetuating this. The new generation diesel cars could help us use so much less oil, but people are slow to buy them except for those that follow diesels.

Just my .02 cents

I agree with you. I think you guys are underestimating the urea setup.

And Im sitting back and laughing at you guys bitching that "just something extra to go wrong, makes it too complicated, etc"

Too complicated, something to go wrong? HAHAHA. Do you have any idea how many other things on your current truck depend on a computer or something? Nobody complains about all the other electrics, computers, DRIVE BY WIRE system, ECM's, TCM's, etc on their duramax's???? What makes you think this urea system is going to all of a sudden not be reliable?

GM has made every other electrical/etc system on the duramax's reliable to the point where people trust them and dont think twice about how some mud on their boot could get lodged in the APPS (pedal sensor) and then the truck wont even move....I could go on and on....

If you want "simple" and "reliable" then stop whining and go buy a 12 valve cummins.

ben

I agree with you. I think you guys are underestimating the urea setup.

And Im sitting back and laughing at you guys bitching that "just something extra to go wrong, makes it too complicated, etc"

Too complicated, something to go wrong? HAHAHA. Do you have any idea how many other things on your current truck depend on a computer or something? Nobody complains about all the other electrics, computers, DRIVE BY WIRE system, ECM's, TCM's, etc on their duramax's???? What makes you think this urea system is going to all of a sudden not be reliable?

GM has made every other electrical/etc system on the duramax's reliable to the point where people trust them and dont think twice about how some mud on their boot could get lodged in the APPS (pedal sensor) and then the truck wont even move....I could go on and on....

If you want "simple" and "reliable" then stop whining and go buy a 12 valve cummins.

ben
Yeah, it should be nothing like the EGR when it first came out:rolleyes: It was/is the most common source of the "check engine" light in almost all diesels that use one! We are having a bad run on them in the Series 60's now! I want a new truck badly, but I think I'll wait and see how it works out first.

Urea is 3.95 a gallon. I just looked at it yesterday coming home at the truck stop in Forest Lake. So if it is an 8 gallon tank it will be 31.00 plus tax to fill. Not a big bank breaker when you look at the 56K-60K you spend on the truck.

I agree with you. I think you guys are underestimating the urea setup.

And Im sitting back and laughing at you guys bitching that "just something extra to go wrong, makes it too complicated, etc"

Too complicated, something to go wrong? HAHAHA. Do you have any idea how many other things on your current truck depend on a computer or something? Nobody complains about all the other electrics, computers, DRIVE BY WIRE system, ECM's, TCM's, etc on their duramax's???? What makes you think this urea system is going to all of a sudden not be reliable?

GM has made every other electrical/etc system on the duramax's reliable to the point where people trust them and dont think twice about how some mud on their boot could get lodged in the APPS (pedal sensor) and then the truck wont even move....I could go on and on....

If you want "simple" and "reliable" then stop whining and go buy a 12 valve cummins.

ben

So........from looking at your sig some how I dont think your lilly is stock. Did you have a change of heart? Are you gonna leave your lml stock if ya get one?

wow...go buy a 12 valve cummins huh? you jus proved your own self wrong buddy! lol. 12v cummins are over 12 years old now atleast and theres still a shit load of them on the road that are still reliable to this day...why? becasue they dont have all this emissions bull shit on them! and nobody can deny that...none of this emmision anything helps a diesel engine out one tiny bit! decreases milage, totally ill practical cause for guys who really use there trucks for work, hunting, towing all that stuff, its jus one more thing to break...my dads LMM left us stranded 12 miles out in the hills one time because the dam thing went into ****in limp mode cause something with the emissions...that was a long quad ride back to get my trusty "loud" "Smokey" LB7 at 15 degrees outside, which saved the day.

There have been emissions on cars for over 30 years. With the population explosion I don’t see what good it has done for air quality. Yeah, slight improvement in Los Angles while several other places can’t meet air quality standards now and have zero hope of doing so. Look at the dirty air now and ask yourself why we keep looking at cars and nowhere else. All it is doing is costing us a bunch of money while other sources of emissions including other countries are exempt. Emissions on auto’s will not solve the problem alone. And we are running out of emission controls than can be put on a piston driven engine. This is clearly shown by the MPG reduction and requirement to buy urea. Diesel can be hard enough to find. Try and find this urea in some back water town – esp after they closed every dealer they could in 2008…

Emissions controls cost us MPG – 10% alone for the DPF system.
They add cost to the truck.
They make the truck less reliable.

Cute: 12000 miles a year. Why do you even own a truck? F’ing rent one when you need a truck as it would be cheaper! Now for the rest of the ¾ ton users who put on up to and over 100,000 miles a year…

10% less MPG is $500.00 in 2 months.
100,000 mile DPF life is like $1000.00 every year.

These costs are passed on to you or make the modern truck uncompetitive with an older truck like a 12 valve Cummings. $250.00 per month is a serious number to a company’s bottom line in just wasted ‘feel good’ fuel.

Passed on to you by higher construction costs. Higher in home delivery of appliances, water, and meat. Higher RV delivery costs. In my case higher auto parts and tire costs to small mom and pop tire stores.

Sooner or later this country will be forced to wake up and realize we are no longer a rich superpower that can afford luxuries like emission controls on everything. (Without some import tax on countries that don’t use or require emissions.)

The bankrupt state of California with it’s strict emissions should serve as a warning.

wow...go buy a 12 valve cummins huh? you jus proved your own self wrong buddy! lol. 12v cummins are over 12 years old now atleast and theres still a shit load of them on the road that are still reliable to this day...why? becasue they dont have all this emissions bull shit on them! and nobody can deny that...none of this emmision anything helps a diesel engine out one tiny bit! decreases milage, totally ill practical cause for guys who really use there trucks for work, hunting, towing all that stuff, its jus one more thing to break...my dads LMM left us stranded 12 miles out in the hills one time because the dam thing went into ****in limp mode cause something with the emissions...that was a long quad ride back to get my trusty "loud" "Smokey" LB7 at 15 degrees outside, which saved the day.

go back and re-read my post. :rolleyes:

I was saying, if you want a truck that is TRUELY "SIMPLE AND RELIABLE", go buy a 12 valve cummins. The point I was making was that I laugh at the guys who think their LB7 is "simple and reliable" and the LML is going to be "eleventy billion times more complicated and unreliable than an LB7".

The LML is infact eleventy billion times more complicated than a truely simple/reliable diesel (12valve, or any mechanical diesel), but it is not really that much more complicated than any other duramax before it.

ben

If I got a new LML I would leave it stock. I would love to have one. Im sure it will be plenty fast enough to be fun to daily drive with 400hp and 765 ft lbs.

That way I keep my warranty, dont have to worry about emissions laws, and I still get 18+mpg without using a tuner or DPF-delete kit or whatever.

I feel like Im the only optimistic person in the whole world about this "new" duramax. :wtf:

If it comes out and sucks and turns out to be a warranty-disaster, then all you guys can throw out your simple/reliable/too complicated/stupid emissions BS/one more thing to fail arguements, BUT until it comes out, you have no ground to stand on, and your guys argument sucks.

Wa rWagon, i couldnt have said it better! and duratothemax, i have to disagree with you as my lb7 did not come with a cat or any emission stuff on it at all...I remember reading somewere on one of these forums the LMM has something like 4x the computing power of an LB7 and the new ones will have DOUBLE that! i dnt c how you figure there about the same but...to each is his own...

I work at a mercedes dealer and we have been dealing with the urea system for a couple years now, and you can't bypass that system due to that it is incorperated into the ecu not to mention miles of wires and fiber optics. I would be highly against bypassing it since you will most likely fail inspection

i wonder why we haven't started smogging airplanes yet?

Fill the tank about twice a year......where the **** did you get those numbers from? They are saying it needs to be refilled every 5000 miles, so unless you drive less than 10k a year, your gonna be filling it a lot more than twice a year.;) It will probably cost $20 to fill it.....again where are you getting these numbers from? I can take wild guesses too, but I don't want to look stupid.
We sell half gallons of urea, or what we call adblue for about $13. The only issue is how big the tank is. But usually about every 12-15000 miles do we fill one up. also if the tank is empty you can't start your vehicle and you need to go get some adblue to start it up.

i wonder why we haven't started smogging airplanes yet?
i'm sure that is happening now or very soon

We sell half gallons of urea, or what we call adblue for about $13. The only issue is how big the tank is. But usually about every 12-15000 miles do we fill one up. also if the tank is empty you can't start your vehicle and you need to go get some adblue to start it up.

no...thats not true for the new GM pickup trucks.

Even when the tank is completely empty (and you were an idiot and have ignored all the warnings for the past 1,500 miles), you will still be able to start the truck, just that its speed will be limited to 5mph.

I work at a mercedes dealer and we have been dealing with the urea system for a couple years now, and you can't bypass that system due to that it is incorperated into the ecu not to mention miles of wires and fiber optics. I would be highly against bypassing it since you will most likely fail inspection

If a human can engineer it, another human can reverse-engineer it.

Saying "you cant bypass it" is silly. They already figured it out (urea system bypass/delete) for the new 6.7 ford and that thing hasnt even been on dealer lots for a month.

I do not want it because I was told by 1 of my GM dealers it freezes at 11*.

no...thats not true for the new GM pickup trucks.

Even when the tank is completely empty (and you were an idiot and have ignored all the warnings for the past 1,500 miles), you will still be able to start the truck, just that its speed will be limited to 5mph.
well, thats cool. but what is worse not starting or not being able to go past 5mph? lol just don't run out! on the mercedes diesel it gives you the number of engine starts before your engine wont start.

well, thats cool. but what is worse not starting or not being able to go past 5mph?.

So you can at least move the truck onto a tow truck or around a parking lot, or if you are somewhere cold, you wont freeze??

I do not want it because I was told by 1 of my GM dealers it freezes at 11*.

Thats too bad, but I guess it makes sense and explains the reason why the 2011 duramax will not be for sale in the northern United states.

For guys in the northern united states, you're SOL and will need to buy a used 2010 or older duramax.

ben

We haven't had any problems yet. the tank is stored in the car on the mercedes. so I can't speak for anything else but it is able to with stand some pretty cold temps as long as its not out in the open. maybe they heat the tank on the new truck?

I see temps -20 and colder during the Winter. If they heat the tank the batteries would be dead from trying to keep it liquid. Or I just could never shut it off for 5 months.

We haven't had any problems yet. the tank is stored in the car on the mercedes. so I can't speak for anything else but it is able to with stand some pretty cold temps as long as its not out in the open. maybe they heat the tank on the new truck?

I was being sarcastic. ;) :)


Come on guys, REALLY? You dont think GM designed this to still function in extreme cold temperatures???? :rolleyes:

Yeah it freezes at 11*. Thats why there are 3 different individual heaters (in the tank, the line is heated, and the urea injector itself is heated) and the engine doesnt even start using/injecting the urea until everything is up to operating temp.

Now wait, dont bother responding because I already know what you guys are going to say. "DUH WELL UH SO what if those heaters fail, that will be really nice when it shuts off on me half way through an intersection".

First of all, it doesnt matter if you hit a bump in the road and the whole damn tank falls out from underneath the truck, NO UREA-RELATED PROBLEM WILL RESULT IN AN INSTANT LIMP WHILE YOU ARE DRIVING. You will be warned that "theres a problem, take it to the dealer, if you keep driving, in 1,000 miles, you will be limited to 55mph upon the next restart after 1,000 miles has elapsed....then if you KEEP driving after that, you'll be limited to 5mph AFTER RESTART"

Your check engine light comes on and the DIC says "exhaust fluid quality poor, service required". Oh ok, schedule an appointment at the dealer for next week, keep driving the truck normally, and take it to the dealer at your earliest convienience. Isnt that what you normally do when the check engine light comes on? You guys are treating this like the end of the world comes if your truck experiences a urea-related hiccup.

Yet you dont even think twice that short in the accellerator pedal wiring could, at any time, make your throttle go dead and the truck die....in the middle of an intersection... :eek:

But I guess its not worth trying to explain it because people will still just be stubborn and ignorant about the whole thing.

ben

But Ben, throttle by wire is not a "new" concept!

I see temps -20 and colder during the Winter. If they heat the tank the batteries would be dead from trying to keep it liquid. Or I just could never shut it off for 5 months.

Well gee whiz good news for you!! Because thats not how it works!!!!! I wont mention the "assume" thing.

IF anyone would put aside their doubts for a measely 2 minutes and read about urea, you'll find that it can be thawed and frozen continuously/indefinitely with no degratation in quality.

Its not like the crap has to be kept liquid any time the truck is exposed to temperatures below 11*.

Ok you park the truck for a week at the north pole. Urea freezes. OMG WHAT NOW. Ill tell you. You get into the truck. The truck starts fine with no warning light, even though the urea is still frozen. BUT how can that be, you ask? Because GM realized that people MIGHT, just MIGHT park their trucks where its below 11*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the urea might freeze!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you start driving the truck, and the several redundant urea heaters begin to thaw the urea. So you keep driving (still no check engine light or random truck shut-off even tho the urea is still half frozen, amazingly), urea thaws completely. ECM recognizes this and then begins using the urea only when its fully thawed. And just to recap in case you guys breezed over the first part of my post, urea doesnt degrade when its frozen and re-thawed. Kinda like that stuff we call WATER.

Oh but what if all the stars align and all three separate redunant heaters fail? THEN you'll get that urea warning light with a "get this fixed within the next thousand miles, dummy, otherwise your speed is going to be limited"

ben

But Ben, throttle by wire is not a "new" concept!

yeah neither is urea/SCR..... Ask the europeans. ;)

http://www.factsaboutscr.com/documents/DEFFactorFiction4-8-09.ppt

http://www.truthaboutscr.com/media/pdfs/SCR_Brochure_Medium_2-26-09b.pdf

So if it never thaws then it never gets injected and never goes into limp ? If that is the case that is ok. I do not need any extra issues to leave me in the middle of no where. Where I travel there is fewer GM dealers now and most towns are closed up by 6 PM. I can easily put on 700 miles a day playing heaters so I do want anything to put my van into limp at a possible 5 MPH. I can screw up enough things on my own, I do not need any help.

So if it never thaws then it never gets injected and never goes into limp ? If that is the case that is ok. I do not need any extra issues to leave me in the middle of no where. Where I travel there is fewer GM dealers now and most towns are closed up by 6 PM. I can easily put on 700 miles a day playing heaters so I do want anything to put my van into limp at a possible 5 MPH. I can screw up enough things on my own, I do not need any help.

fine then dont buy one and stop complaining about it. :rolleyes:

Thats probably my biggest gripe with all of you guys. Youre whining and complaining about something you dont know jack shit about and have zero experience with.

And also, if you guys are so stubborn that you'll "never own one", why do you continue to complain about it? What does complaining about it solve? NOTHING. Do you guys think if enough of you complain the EPA is going to say "oh, ok, you guys are right, we wont require SCR anymore"

If you dont want it, then pipe down and dont buy it and it will never bother you. No one is forcing SCR down your throat and forcing you to sell your current truck and buy a new one with SCR.

NO. my problem is your trying to defend something that is TOTAL 100 percent bullshit! jus look at the things you guys are talking about, freezing urea, thawing it, limp mode, only being able to drive 5mph....get this!!!! if it wasnt on there NOBODY would ever have to worry about any of this shit and it would be fine! People in America need to look around and see what is happening and start voting these assholes out of office that are coming up with all this BS. This little Urea thing may seem so incignificant in the big scheme but it all adds up and its a symbol of a whole lot more and worse shit to come!

NO. my problem is your trying to defend something that is TOTAL 100 percent bullshit!

Why is it bullshit? You dont even have any clue how it works, and you've never even been within miles of one of the new 2011HD's and its associated SCR system.

Just because YOU dont know how it works, dont have any understanding of it, and dont even have personal experience with it doesnt mean its bullshit. It means you're ignorant.

You know, there was a time when stubborn ignorant people like yourself said fuel injection was bullshit. There was a time when people said aluminum heads on a diesel and common rail fuel injection was bullshit. Hell, there was a time when people said that little thing the wright brothers were working on called an AIRPLANE was bullshit too. :rolleyes:

And gee whiz all that "bullshit" seemed to work out fine and now we cant imagine how we lived without it.

To everyone who despises SCR: Wait for the thing to come out before passing judgement. Wait for the end of this year when the 2011HD's have had some time on the road to prove (or dis-prove) itself. If, in the first 6 months, it turns out to be a piece of shit and causes all sorts of problems, call me a fool. But until then, STFU.

ben

You know Ben you can also choose to ignore us dummies. If you exactly how it works on the LML and LGH please share with us so we can be as smart as you.
If I want to buy a new Dmax van this is my only choice.

I already explained how it works...

fine then dont buy one and stop complaining about it. :rolleyes:

Thats probably my biggest gripe with all of you guys. Youre whining and complaining about something you dont know jack shit about and have zero experience with.

And also, if you guys are so stubborn that you'll "never own one", why do you continue to complain about it? What does complaining about it solve? NOTHING. Do you guys think if enough of you complain the EPA is going to say "oh, ok, you guys are right, we wont require SCR anymore"

If you dont want it, then pipe down and dont buy it and it will never bother you. No one is forcing SCR down your throat and forcing you to sell your current truck and buy a new one with SCR.


'Nuff said.

'Nuff said.Yeah, but you see,, that's the problem! I want one! I don't like adding oil much less EXHAUST FLUID:mad: I can't think of any thing the EPA has mandated that has been good for the longevity of an engine. If the EPA mandated EFI, then kudos to them for a single triumph!

I'll cross the urea bridge when I come to it. If it doesn't hamper performance and doesn't cost a lot I'll probably leave it (assuming there is a way to eliminate it) as I am not opposed to doing my share for clean air. I'd like to see a limp mode override and I think the DPF removal is a good thing. Mine won't be tuned to smoke excessively, just respond better, make abundant TQ and run sweet. This is all assuming we can even get inside the new box.

I'll cross the urea bridge when I come to it. If it doesn't hamper performance and doesn't cost a lot I'll probably leave it (assuming there is a way to eliminate it) as I am not opposed to doing my share for clean air. I'd like to see a limp mode override and I think the DPF removal is a good thing. Mine won't be tuned to smoke excessively, just respond better, make abundant TQ and run sweet. This is all assuming we can even get inside the new box.
Well I guess I could go along with that:agreed:

if you are paying 50+ grand for a truck you can afford an extra 20 bucks every oil change [to refill the urea tank]. Seriously.

if you are paying 50+ grand for a truck you can afford an extra 20 bucks every oil change [to refill the urea tank]. Seriously.
Ben, it's not the money! I don't like greasing "muffler bearings" either;)

Good lord.......the EPA and all their emissions B/S has got you fellas all wound up...I'll think just keep my 08' and not buy a 11';)

Good lord.......the EPA and all their emissions B/S has got you fellas all wound up...I'll think just keep my 08' and not buy a 11';)

Im with ya LW, IM keeping my 08, even if the new one has more power. I didn't spend all that money on my ride to trade it in 3 yrs later.

Hey duratothemax! hows ur EGR working out for ya on ur 05 in your sig?? oh wait...you probably deleted it? how come? thts just another piece of equipment to better the running of our trucks? jus like the dpf and urea injection :)

Hey duratothemax! hows ur EGR working out for ya on ur 05 in your sig?? oh wait...you probably deleted it? how come? thts just another piece of equipment to better the running of our trucks? jus like the dpf and urea injection :)

I don't know about Duratothemax but mine is working just fine with over 200,000 miles on my LBZ. :)

Hey duratothemax! hows ur EGR working out for ya on ur 05 in your sig?? oh wait...you probably deleted it? how come?

because it wont physically fit on with twins piping in the way, artard.

ben

Christ, this is the exact same thing that was talked about in '07 with the lmm. DPF meant the end of the world. Now Urea means the end of the world. Im not gonna buy a lml. You dont have to either. Im going to blow as much black smoke in my lbz as I can till the motor blows up, then ill put a new one in it.

What we should do is start lobbying our senators and congressmen to stop making these ridiculous laws. Why is it that everyone waits till its law to get angry? Get off your asses and call a congressmen to get rid of this crap!

I don't know about Duratothemax but mine is working just fine with over 200,000 miles on my LBZ. :)


And let me guess...the MBRP duals are CAT back.

I don't know about Duratothemax but mine is working just fine with over 200,000 miles on my LBZ. :)
Thats cool for you... Mine has been a piece of crap since I have owned it and the previous owner admitted that too. I have a constant check engine light, not to mention the repair bills from the dealer replacing just about every EGR related part. AND the dealers I have talked to tell me the EGR system is problematic.

THe amount of vehicles on the road is growing everyday along with the pollution these vehicles put out. Sure I dont have a catalytic converter and it blows smoke but the only reason is because they are by-products of going faster. Urea is in place to reduce emissions.... whats so bad about that??

I enjoy going fast with my windows down breathing fresh clean air. Dont the rest of you? If I could have the same power and performance and not pollute Im all in.

I can understand why you guys don't like egt, pcv, cat, dpf, but what's wrong with urea? In my opinion it the only emission device that makes sense. The only one that doesn't negatively affect the truck.

I can understand why you guys don't like egt, pcv, cat, dpf, but what's wrong with urea? In my opinion it the only emission device that makes sense. The only one that doesn't negatively affect the truck.

X2

THe amount of vehicles on the road is growing everyday along with the pollution these vehicles put out. Sure I dont have a catalytic converter and it blows smoke but the only reason is because they are by-products of going faster. Urea is in place to reduce emissions.... whats so bad about that??

I enjoy going fast with my windows down breathing fresh clean air. Dont the rest of you? If I could have the same power and performance and not pollute Im all in.

Couldn't agree more. I, at first, did not like the idea of putting another fluid into the truck, but now, after finding out more information about how it works and why it's there, no issues with me. Yeah, it's another "thing" to keep an eye on and something else that "could" go wrong with it, but it's here to stay, like it or not. Considering GM was able to get a major increase in hp and torque, lowest emissions put out by any D-max to date, that's impressive to me. It'll just become another part of maintanence, wonder if there is a urea filter? :D Chris

I can understand why you guys don't like egt, pcv, cat, dpf, but what's wrong with urea? In my opinion it the only emission device that makes sense. The only one that doesn't negatively affect the truck.

1. added cost too truck:mad:
2. just one more thing too go wrong later on
3. just another emissions B/S too line the EPA & liberals pockets:rolleyes:

I can understand why you guys don't like egt, pcv, cat, dpf, but what's wrong with urea? In my opinion it the only emission device that makes sense. The only one that doesn't negatively affect the truck.
The only thing I'm concerned with, is, are we going to be able to eliminate all the things you agree are bad and still keep the Urea functioning properly? I saw the screen shots from EFI Live for the Chummins and I wonder how much time and effort they will put into this for the new DMax while they are targeting a 5.9l market. Just sayin:confused: I will not have an EGR or PCV in my Diesel. I keep vehicles longer than they are in warranty for and I like to keep my vehicles in the best of shape! With the way the system works, will you be able to bypass some of it while retaining some of it? This is what I will wait and see. You loose too much money trading while they are in warranty. Sorry for the rambling, but I don't think people see ALL the different sides to this.

1. added cost too truck:mad:

annddd...you lose. The 2011's are the same damn price as the 2010's. :rolleyes:

OOO but wait, let me guess, your dealer (who would desparately love to sell you a 2010 so he can move them off the lot to make room for the 2011's) told you the new emissions stuff was going to add another $7,000 to the 2011 trucks right???????

I cant beleive everyone beleived all of that, I tried to convince everyone years ago that you will only see very little (if any) cost increase due to the additional emissions equipment. Everyone thought I was full of shit. Now that GM released pricing, and its, surprise surprise, same as the 2010's, maybe im not so stupid after all.

ben

annddd...you lose. The 2011's are the same damn price as the 2010's. :rolleyes:

OOO but wait, let me guess, your dealer (who would desparately love to sell you a 2010 so he can move them off the lot to make room for the 2011's) told you the new emissions stuff was going to add another $7,000 to the 2011 trucks right???????

I cant beleive everyone beleived all of that, I tried to convince everyone years ago that you will only see very little (if any) cost increase due to the additional emissions equipment. Everyone thought I was full of shit. Now that GM released pricing, and its, surprise surprise, same as the 2010's, maybe im not so stupid after all.

ben

well...excuse me SIR......at least you can agree with 2 & 3;)



David

annddd...you lose. The 2011's are the same damn price as the 2010's. :rolleyes:

OOO but wait, let me guess, your dealer (who would desparately love to sell you a 2010 so he can move them off the lot to make room for the 2011's) told you the new emissions stuff was going to add another $7,000 to the 2011 trucks right???????

I cant beleive everyone beleived all of that, I tried to convince everyone years ago that you will only see very little (if any) cost increase due to the additional emissions equipment. Everyone thought I was full of shit. Now that GM released pricing, and its, surprise surprise, same as the 2010's, maybe im not so stupid after all.

ben

:lol: BINGO!

Talk to the dealer later this year and then try and get them to tell you the "downsides" of the urea injection.

whoa... lets not blow things out of proportion here :D

my asshole dealers told me that the new trucks would be significantly more.this was before i was reading here.i bought a used 2008 instead of waiting for the new MORE EXPENSIVE truck. a holes

well...excuse me SIR......at least you can agree with 2 & 3;)



David

theoretically, yes I can agree with you on 2. :D

But #3....Yes I hate the EPA/liberal tree-huggers...but how is this lining their pockets in any way????? :confused: Like I said, the trucks will NOT cost anymore...

my asshole dealers told me that the new trucks would be significantly more.this was before i was reading here.i bought a used 2008 instead of waiting for the new MORE EXPENSIVE truck. a holes

how could it be more? ford and dodge are all about the same. by making the emissions package higher for gm truck, it would be cheaper to buy a ford or dodge. if its more, than all three will


a local dealer that i trust not to make anything up told me that according to gm, the lml is "tamper proof". i asked him what that means. he didn't know.

after owning an lmm, the emissions crap isnt as bad as i thought it might be, but not doom and gloom. not saying it wont be modded later

Drink a few beers and you have instant, free urea. whats the big deal

i would rather see something other than extra fuel to "help the trees". cant be that bad. they use it oversea's. never looked, but havent heard any major problems with it other that the dealers charging a ton of money to install it becuase the car owner is lazy

I have a friend with a 2009 lmm and his dealer is trying to get him to buy a new 2010 by telling him how horrible the urea will be in the 2011. (for him, price isn't an issue) He said he's going to a Cummins because of this instead of getting another Duramax now. I told him he's crazy. He believes the new trucks will get 10 mpg due to "all the new emissions crap.":confused: I told him if he gets the Dodge, I want to place a wager on how long he will keep it. He also doesn't read this, or other sites.

Not any money into the pockets of polititions? ru shittin me? what do you think this is all about? they dont give a F:"* about emissions or our milage or anything like that politions are pressing all of this becasue is one more law they can put there filthy names on and another thing they can make money off of and tax! that is all it comes down to...This whole climate deal "global warming and emissions control is 100 percent a money maker! think about it!!!!

Not any money into the pockets of polititions? ru shittin me? what do you think this is all about? they dont give a F:"* about emissions or our milage or anything like that politions are pressing all of this becasue is one more law they can put there filthy names on and another thing they can make money off of and tax! that is all it comes down to...This whole climate deal "global warming and emissions control is 100 percent a money maker! think about it!!!!
I totally agree. Look at the whole ethanol deal. Gee, lets use ethanol which gives us worse gas mileage, is harder on engines, jacks up the price of corn, and gives us worse emissions.

Drink a few beers and you have instant, free urea. whats the big deal
If I could just pee in the urea tank, and it would be alright, I'd do it.

Not any money into the pockets of polititions? ru shittin me? what do you think this is all about? they dont give a F:"* about emissions or our milage or anything like that politions are pressing all of this becasue is one more law they can put there filthy names on and another thing they can make money off of and tax! that is all it comes down to...This whole climate deal "global warming and emissions control is 100 percent a money maker! think about it!!!!

So you honestly believe that pollution from carbon based fuels is a load of crap??? Someone just made it up so that they could make some money???

I guess all that haze in big cities like LA is just rain clouds...

Give your head a shake man....

No, its not a load of crap, but what are you going to do tell everybody to stop driving, level there houses, get rid of all powerplants, and shut down the world and rebuild it self sustainably like AL Gore suggests....sure...ya we'll get the money to do that from our dwindling economy, oh ya and while were at it we'll fix the rest of the worlds problems to...we gotta get real ppl! putting egr valves, dpf's urea, or whatever the hell they come up with next on our vehicles will not significantly do ANYTHING! so yes, it is a 100 percent money maker! and one more extremely funny thing for all you guys backing emmsions shit...say an average lb7 gets idk 17mpg, which i would say is quite accurate...i personally can get 18 city, 22 highway, but consider that high...now take an "emmision friendly" LMM which on average get about 13mpg...HEY guess what weve reduced emmisions and C02 levels by burning an additional 20-30 percent of fuel!!!!???? wait that doesnt make any sense does it!?

No, its not a load of crap, but what are you going to do tell everybody to stop driving, level there houses, get rid of all powerplants, and shut down the world and rebuild it self sustainably like AL Gore suggests....sure...ya we'll get the money to do that from our dwindling economy, oh ya and while were at it we'll fix the rest of the worlds problems to...we gotta get real ppl! putting egr valves, dpf's urea, or whatever the hell they come up with next on our vehicles will not significantly do ANYTHING! so yes, it is a 100 percent money maker! and one more extremely funny thing for all you guys backing emmsions shit...say an average lb7 gets idk 17mpg, which i would say is quite accurate...i personally can get 18 city, 22 highway, but consider that high...now take an "emmision friendly" LMM which on average get about 13mpg...HEY guess what weve reduced emmisions and C02 levels by burning an additional 20-30 percent of fuel!!!!???? wait that doesnt make any sense does it!?


I agree with you, but I just don't think urea is a big deal. I'd rather have a 325hp/600ft. lbs. D-max option, that gets 25+mpg, oh yeah, they scrapped it.:mad: Talk about a winner that is going nowhere right now! Chris

No, its not a load of crap, but what are you going to do tell everybody to stop driving, level there houses, get rid of all powerplants, and shut down the world and rebuild it self sustainably like AL Gore suggests....sure...ya we'll get the money to do that from our dwindling economy, oh ya and while were at it we'll fix the rest of the worlds problems to...we gotta get real ppl! putting egr valves, dpf's urea, or whatever the hell they come up with next on our vehicles will not significantly do ANYTHING! so yes, it is a 100 percent money maker! and one more extremely funny thing for all you guys backing emmsions shit...say an average lb7 gets idk 17mpg, which i would say is quite accurate...i personally can get 18 city, 22 highway, but consider that high...now take an "emmision friendly" LMM which on average get about 13mpg...HEY guess what weve reduced emmisions and C02 levels by burning an additional 20-30 percent of fuel!!!!???? wait that doesnt make any sense does it!?

well shit now, thats WHY THE UREA INJECTION IS SO NICE!! Because it cuts the amount of regens needed to stay clean. Thats why the new 2011 trucks will get ~19mpg, same as your LB7. ;)

ben

No, its not a load of crap, but what are you going to do tell everybody to stop driving, level there houses, get rid of all powerplants, and shut down the world and rebuild it self sustainably like AL Gore suggests....sure...ya we'll get the money to do that from our dwindling economy, oh ya and while were at it we'll fix the rest of the worlds problems to...we gotta get real ppl! putting egr valves, dpf's urea, or whatever the hell they come up with next on our vehicles will not significantly do ANYTHING! so yes, it is a 100 percent money maker! and one more extremely funny thing for all you guys backing emmsions shit...say an average lb7 gets idk 17mpg, which i would say is quite accurate...i personally can get 18 city, 22 highway, but consider that high...now take an "emmision friendly" LMM which on average get about 13mpg...HEY guess what weve reduced emmisions and C02 levels by burning an additional 20-30 percent of fuel!!!!???? wait that doesnt make any sense does it!?

WOW!
Talk about lying about the facts to try to make a point.
Where on earth did you get LMM average of 13 MPG???????
My last tank on my 09 LMM CCSB 4X4, I got 20.96 MPG, my lifetime average for the truck for ~12,500 miles is 16.2 MPG, which includes ~30% of the miles towing.

Facts about the DPF on LMM's:
1) Takes ~ 0.75 gallon of fuel for a regen every ~ 400 miles. So take my average of 16.2 mpg into that 400 miles works out to 24.69 gallons of fuel; if I had no DPF then I would use 23.96 gallons, so the difference is 3.1%. (20-30% you stated is a flat out LIE).
2) DPF filters 85-100% of particulate emissions from the engine.
3) Result is NO black smoke coming from the tailpipe.

Facts about DPF on LML's
1) Takes the same 0.75 gal. of fuel every ~ 700 miles.
2) GM reports ~ 11% improvement on fuel economy for LML's over LMM's which they calculate out to be ~ 18.8 MPG (680 mile rang on 34 gal tank).
3) Urea reduces NOx by ~ 65%
4) LML's are the MOST powerful Duramax engines EVER.

Some of you just want to vilify ANYTHING done in the name of the environment.
Let me ask you a question; Do you throw your garbage away in the trash or just drop it on the floor? Cause you know by using a trash can you are just enriching the "Greenies" who insist we use landfills instead of letting it pile up in the streets. Man and you are paying for garbage collection too.

WOW!
Talk about lying about the facts to try to make a point.
Where on earth did you get LMM average of 13 MPG???????
My last tank on my 09 LMM CCSB 4X4, I got 20.96 MPG, my lifetime average for the truck for ~12,500 miles is 16.2 MPG, which includes ~30% of the miles towing.

Facts about the DPF on LMM's:
1) Takes ~ 0.75 gallon of fuel for a regen every ~ 400 miles. So take my average of 16.2 mpg into that 400 miles works out to 24.69 gallons of fuel; if I had no DPF then I would use 23.96 gallons, so the difference is 3.1%. (20-30% you stated is a flat out LIE).
2) DPF filters 85-100% of particulate emissions from the engine.
3) Result is NO black smoke coming from the tailpipe.

Facts about DPF on LML's
1) Takes the same 0.75 gal. of fuel every ~ 700 miles.
2) GM reports ~ 11% improvement on fuel economy for LML's over LMM's which they calculate out to be ~ 18.8 MPG (680 mile rang on 34 gal tank).
3) Urea reduces NOx by ~ 65%
4) LML's are the MOST powerful Duramax engines EVER.

Some of you just want to vilify ANYTHING done in the name of the environment.
Let me ask you a question; Do you throw your garbage away in the trash or just drop it on the floor? Cause you know by using a trash can you are just enriching the "Greenies" who insist we use landfills instead of letting it pile up in the streets. Man and you are paying for garbage collection too.
You must have a high mpg LMM, cuz why is it that there are so many posts in the LMM section that are like HELP, I AM GETTING 10 MPG!! Did you also know that a cooler burning power plant reduces diesel emissions? Advancing timing also helps with most emissions except for NOx? My stock LB7 with a cat has no black smoke coming from it, also. The ones you see are Cummins owners who dump lots of fuel to make power. I have no problem in helping the environment, but when it comes to having a vehicle that is unreliable, or has problems due to emissions crap that they put on, I do. Pretty much all environmentalists are hypocrites anyway. Take Al Gore and his huge mansion. I saw somewhere where his natural gas bill is like $1000+ a month.

Ever heard of Climategate?

I have three buddies with LMM's and they are all getting around 13mpg and complaining about it. I agree with yall that it is ludicrous to think that we are saving the planet by burning more fuel. It is all politics and nothing more.

FYI- If and only if the LML does get 20+ mpg, ill be in line to get one.

ok say ur really gettin 20 hand calculated...great the average is still around 13 thx, all who backed me up cause u know its true...Duratothemax 19mpg huh? according to the guy standing up for the dpf it only uses somthing like half a gallon to regen...not gna help that much...and ill c it when i believe it...also im pretty dam sure the urea is injected AFTER the DPF! lol might wana do some of your homework buddy.

You must have a high mpg LMM, cuz why is it that there are so many posts in the LMM section that are like HELP, I AM GETTING 10 MPG!! Did you also know that a cooler burning power plant reduces diesel emissions? Advancing timing also helps with most emissions except for NOx? My stock LB7 with a cat has no black smoke coming from it, also. The ones you see are Cummins owners who dump lots of fuel to make power. I have no problem in helping the environment, but when it comes to having a vehicle that is unreliable, or has problems due to emissions crap that they put on, I do. Pretty much all environmentalists are hypocrites anyway. Take Al Gore and his huge mansion. I saw somewhere where his natural gas bill is like $1000+ a month.

Ever heard of Climategate?

Gee maybe you are right I've never seen a post with an LLY/ LBZ owner complaining about poor gas mileage.......
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367811&highlight=LBZ+fuel+mileage.
Wait a minute, maybe I have.

I really hope nobody is naive enough to believe LBZ's get "20-30%" better mileage than LMM's.

The single biggest factor in fuel economy from one truck to another is DRIVING STYLE.
There are hundreds of posts from LMM owners reporting 18-24 MPG on here as well, the guys getting crappy mileage just complain more often.

As far as the rest of your post goes, there are a lot of things that can be done to reduce emisions on diesels or anything else. However, some people on here would B*tch about them even if they reduced the cost of the truck and improved mileage; there is so much animosity about anything done in the name of the environment that its silly. Like it or not its not all bad, learn to deal with it and we will all breathe easier.:)

Ben, I don't have anything against you, in fact, you are one of the many experienced people that have helped me and many others with our trucks, but I think its kinda hypocritical to defend the emissions stuff on the Duramaxes and say how important it is to have clean air, but yet you don't have an egr, cats, or probably a pcv system on your truck.

ok say ur really gettin 20 hand calculated...great the average is still around 13 thx, all who backed me up cause u know its true...Duratothemax 19mpg huh?.

LMM's do not get great fuel economy, at least all of the ones Ive worked on. Fuel economy on the LML, yeah, should get 18-19mpg stock. Easily as good if not better than a stock LB7. Oh, and that LB7-like fuel economy also comes with an extra 100hp, extra 250ft lbs, and a warranty. :cool:

according to the guy standing up for the dpf it only uses somthing like half a gallon to regen...not gna help that much...and ill c it when i believe it....

Well I guess we'll see whos right in a month or so.

also im pretty dam sure the urea is injected AFTER the DPF! lol might wana do some of your homework buddy.

Im pretty damn sure you're wrong.

ben

Ben, I don't have anything against you, in fact, you are one of the many experienced people that have helped me and many others with our trucks, but I think its kinda hypocritical to defend the emissions stuff on the Duramaxes and say how important it is to have clean air, but yet you don't have an egr, cats, or probably a pcv system on your truck.

I dont, but we are talking about SCR/urea injection in this thread. SCR/urea injection is a GREAT emissions-control device. It gets the emissions squeaky clean (especially NOx, which diesels have always had trouble with), AND allows for much fewer DPF regens while maintaining that excellent emissions standard...which means great fuel economy. WIN WIN situation with the urea injection, as far as Im concerned.

Im not a hippy tree-hugger EPA supporter. But I am a realist in that whether we like it or not, the EPA is here to stay and they are gonna keep doing their dumb thing and there isnt jack shit we can do to convince them otherwise. So just accept what we have to work with. We need to meet X emissions regulations. This is the best way to do it, urea....because it gets it clean, and doesnt impact mileage/fuel economy/operates transparently as far as the driver is concerned. No matter how much you complain and whine, THEY are the ones making the rules. Its either run the urea or stop selling diesels. OR run that stupid super fancy rare-metals cat (urea alternative) that the dodge pickup trucks are going to run, and still get shitty fuel economy, and spend a fortune when you need to replace it, because it does have a prescribed service life. Take your pick.

Guys with the "it just makes it more complicated, one more thing to go wrong" argument have zero ground to stand on IMO. The duramax as a whole is a very complicated engine with its high pressure common rail fuel injection, FICM, ECM, TCM, transmission, drive by wire, and all the dozens of sensors and electronic components. So if anyone thinks their LB7 is "so dirt simple and reliable" compared to the new LML, they are mistaken.

Just wait, in 5 years theres gonna be some other new gee-whiz (get it?) emissions contraption that the stupid EPA is going to require to be put on diesels, and we will look back on the LML and call it "simple and reliable", like guys are calling thier LB7's today.

Like I said before, Ill say it a million times. No one is in any position to call this system a piece of crap. NO ONE. Unless you've seen/worked on/or driven an LML, you have no dog in this fight and no ground to stand on with your arguments. If it comes out and by this december proves to be the biggest disaster ever and has all sorts of probles, tarnishes the duramax's reputation like the LB7 injectors did (wait no, sorry, that was below the belt, I forgot your guys' old and trusty LB7's were so simple and reliable and perfect), THEN YOU CAN CALL ME A FOOL and laugh me off this forum. But until then, my argument/opinion stands. :)

Just my own opinion.

ben

my bad on the placement of urea injection...you are right ben! i read wrong somewhere on a post a while back...I still do not understand how and why you are trying to justify all of this emmisions equipment!?? we all know the engines last longer without it, run better, and perform better without it...sure the new one has more hp and torque but shit GM could make it 500rwhp with all that intact if they wanted to! we all know that...and last but not least we know they get better milage without it! this i know u understand also!! sooo my question again is WHY?

oops jus posted that right after you posted above...that answers my question i guess...

I dont, but we are talking about SCR/urea injection in this thread. SCR/urea injection is a GREAT emissions-control device. It gets the emissions squeaky clean (especially NOx, which diesels have always had trouble with), AND allows for much fewer DPF regens while maintaining that excellent emissions standard...which means great fuel economy. WIN WIN situation with the urea injection, as far as Im concerned.

Im not a hippy tree-hugger EPA supporter. But I am a realist in that whether we like it or not, the EPA is here to stay and they are gonna keep doing their dumb thing and there isnt jack shit we can do to convince them otherwise. So just accept what we have to work with. We need to meet X emissions regulations. This is the best way to do it, urea....because it gets it clean, and doesnt impact mileage/fuel economy/operates transparently as far as the driver is concerned. No matter how much you complain and whine, THEY are the ones making the rules. Its either run the urea or stop selling diesels. OR run that stupid super fancy rare-metals cat (urea alternative) that the dodge pickup trucks are going to run, and still get shitty fuel economy, and spend a fortune when you need to replace it, because it does have a prescribed service life. Take your pick.

Guys with the "it just makes it more complicated, one more thing to go wrong" argument have zero ground to stand on IMO. The duramax as a whole is a very complicated engine with its high pressure common rail fuel injection, FICM, ECM, TCM, transmission, drive by wire, and all the dozens of sensors and electronic components. So if anyone thinks their LB7 is "so dirt simple and reliable" compared to the new LML, they are mistaken.

Just wait, in 5 years theres gonna be some other new gee-whiz (get it?) emissions contraption that the stupid EPA is going to require to be put on diesels, and we will look back on the LML and call it "simple and reliable", like guys are calling thier LB7's today.

Like I said before, Ill say it a million times. No one is in any position to call this system a piece of crap. NO ONE. Unless you've seen/worked on/or driven an LML, you have no dog in this fight and no ground to stand on with your arguments. If it comes out and by this december proves to be the biggest disaster ever and has all sorts of probles, tarnishes the duramax's reputation like the LB7 injectors did (wait no, sorry, that was below the belt, I forgot your guys' old and trusty LB7's were so simple and reliable and perfect), THEN YOU CAN CALL ME A FOOL and laugh me off this forum. But until then, my argument/opinion stands. :)

Just my own opinion.

ben
So Ben, does this mean YOU will buy a new truck and leave it totally stock? And leave the the PCV valve and egr in tact?

My "dog in this fight" isn't exactly the "Urea", but, am I going to be able to eliminate the PCV and EGR with this system? I want an exhaust that sounds throaty, not a Dyson. I'm all for making HP without tons of black smoke. Sometimes I look back in my mirror and and get a little embarrassed when I am really just easing into it with the switch all the way up:o:. But I sure like that acceleration when I need it.

I mean, if I can do all the deletes, add a MBRP turbo back and just add a couple bungs somewhere in the pipe and it do something for the enviro, then by all means, I'm in line for a new truck;)

I dont, but we are talking about SCR/urea injection in this thread. SCR/urea injection is a GREAT emissions-control device. It gets the emissions squeaky clean (especially NOx, which diesels have always had trouble with), AND allows for much fewer DPF regens while maintaining that excellent emissions standard...which means great fuel economy. WIN WIN situation with the urea injection, as far as Im concerned.

Im not a hippy tree-hugger EPA supporter. But I am a realist in that whether we like it or not, the EPA is here to stay and they are gonna keep doing their dumb thing and there isnt jack shit we can do to convince them otherwise. So just accept what we have to work with. We need to meet X emissions regulations. This is the best way to do it, urea....because it gets it clean, and doesnt impact mileage/fuel economy/operates transparently as far as the driver is concerned. No matter how much you complain and whine, THEY are the ones making the rules. Its either run the urea or stop selling diesels. OR run that stupid super fancy rare-metals cat (urea alternative) that the dodge pickup trucks are going to run, and still get shitty fuel economy, and spend a fortune when you need to replace it, because it does have a prescribed service life. Take your pick.

Guys with the "it just makes it more complicated, one more thing to go wrong" argument have zero ground to stand on IMO. The duramax as a whole is a very complicated engine with its high pressure common rail fuel injection, FICM, ECM, TCM, transmission, drive by wire, and all the dozens of sensors and electronic components. So if anyone thinks their LB7 is "so dirt simple and reliable" compared to the new LML, they are mistaken.

Just wait, in 5 years theres gonna be some other new gee-whiz (get it?) emissions contraption that the stupid EPA is going to require to be put on diesels, and we will look back on the LML and call it "simple and reliable", like guys are calling thier LB7's today.

Like I said before, Ill say it a million times. No one is in any position to call this system a piece of crap. NO ONE. Unless you've seen/worked on/or driven an LML, you have no dog in this fight and no ground to stand on with your arguments. If it comes out and by this december proves to be the biggest disaster ever and has all sorts of problems, tarnishes the duramax's reputation like the LB7 injectors did (wait no, sorry, that was below the belt, I forgot your guys' old and trusty LB7's were so simple and reliable and perfect), THEN YOU CAN CALL ME A FOOL and laugh me off this forum. But until then, my argument/opinion stands. :)

Just my own opinion.

ben
I am not saying the LB7 was perfect by any means, but all the problems I have had have been from the emissions package on it. I have had no injector problems (knock on wood) in the 2+ years and 50,000 miles that I have owned it. I have replaced pretty much every EGR part, in hopes to get the EGR system working correctly, at great expense. Even dealers I have had my truck in at have said that the EGR systems are a problem. I could not imagine a DPF chipping away at my fuel economy, a dual loop EGR system, and Urea injection (which can cause Limp Mode on a stock truck), when I have enough problems with my "simple" emissions truck, with a cat and EGR.

My Audi prompts you at 1500 miles, then 500 miles, then 100 miles, then if you run out while driving it will not limp or quite, but once you turn it off it wont start until the urea is added.
Oh, those sneaky bastards! :(




You know, there was a time when stubborn ignorant people like yourself said fuel injection was bullshit.
X2 and there was a time when ignorant people thought the world was flat too! :rolleyes:



ben



I'm a bit leary of this DEF too, but I'm not going to pass judgement until I see the performance, or lack there of. ;)

Again why try to delete it?
It doesn't rob any power.
People will spend far more time and effort in trying to delete it than they would ever get back in putting urea in the tank. It'll probably cost~$20 to fill the tank about twice a year. 40 bucks a year is pretty trivial in the cost of the truck and certainly not justified in the cost of trying to remove the system.
its $16 a gallon 2.5 gallon tank and will need to be filled about every 5K miles. you do the math......

I do not want it because I was told by 1 of my GM dealers it freezes at 11*.
thats why there is a heater in the tank

disregard my last post I guess i need to read the whole thread before I post with quotes, sorry

So if it never thaws then it never gets injected and never goes into limp ? If that is the case that is ok. I do not need any extra issues to leave me in the middle of no where. Where I travel there is fewer GM dealers now and most towns are closed up by 6 PM. I can easily put on 700 miles a day playing heaters so I do want anything to put my van into limp at a possible 5 MPH. I can screw up enough things on my own, I do not need any help.
just buy a gasser and be done with it

I already explained how it works...
i have to stick up for ben he knows more about this than I do and i work for gmc, i have to give him credit. and you guys who dont like it you need to complain to your govement because its their fault all this is going on now. not the manufacturers.

just buy a gasser and be done with it


Why is it some of you that do not know the answer to a question you give ignorant answers like this ? God forbid anybody ask questions and have concerns. Maybe I just need to be a know it all so I do not have to ask questions.

Maybe I just need to be a know it all so I do not have to ask questions.

Not possible, no one can know it all :) BUT there are people who like to think they know it all ;)

How about this everyone...

If you don't mind having urea, and can afford a new truck, buy it.

If you hate urea, and want a new truck, delete the urea.

If you hate urea, and want a new truck, but don't want to void your warranty, keep dreaming (or buy a gasoline powered vehicle)

If you hate urea, and don't want to delete it, keep your truck, and stop complaining about something you likely won't have to deal with.

I think that covers it all?

just buy a gasser and be done with it
i said that because all the things you are concerned about are non isssues because the engineers put a lot of thought into the system. and it all can be avoided by buying a gas model. didnt mean any disrespect to you at all. on cold starts its not a problem and the exhaust fluid isnt needed untill a regen happens. so it would all be thawed by then.

So we just need to fool the ECM so that it thinks the engine is cold all the time? :)

and on another note sooner or later there will be some sort of federally mandated inspection system to see if emmission devices are tampered with, in mass you remove a cat you dont get a sticker, do inspectors really look under every car? no but someday they might. imo why bother with a the emission bs and not enforce it?? makes no sense to me

So we just need to fool the ECM so that it thinks the engine is cold all the time? :)
im sure eventually there will be a way around it, but like ben said why?? it does nothing to your performance or longevity of the engine, will it work without the doc maybe, maybe not correctly. the days of eliminating emmission controls are coming to an end, like it or not.

I want to fully informed about it so I can make a decision on which route to take if I decide to buy new. Everyone of my customers (GM dealers) all have concerns about urea and are not confident. They have customers saying they are going to buy 6.0 gassers instead of Dmax and they are worried they are going to lose them after they are not happy with the the 6.0. When my dealers are not confident then I wonder myself and come here ask questions to a larger crowd.

im sure eventually there will be a way around it, but like ben said why?? it does nothing to your performance or longevity of the engine, will it work without the doc maybe, maybe not correctly. the days of eliminating emmission controls are coming to an end, like it or not.

Well for me personally, I would rip that piece of shlt truck apart, and built it right. But not everyone is going to do that, so it really only applies to me and a few others :)

its $16 a gallon 2.5 gallon tank and will need to be filled about every 5K miles. you do the math......

thats why there is a heater in the tank

disregard my last post I guess i need to read the whole thread before I post with quotes, sorry

just buy a gasser and be done with it

i have to stick up for ben he knows more about this than I do and i work for gmc, i have to give him credit. and you guys who dont like it you need to complain to your govement because its their fault all this is going on now. not the manufacturers.
Wow... Thanks for helping us out with all that useful information... Now we don't have a problem with urea anymore...:rolleyes:

its $16 a gallon 2.5 gallon tank and will need to be filled about every 5K miles. you do the math......

its a 5 gallon tank, and by the time its widespread in a few months, urea will be 2.50-3.00/gallon

so an extra 30-60 dollars a month, unless the price magically drops by 13 dollars a gallon as soon as it becomes "popular"? haha thats great...next i think we should plant plants after the dpf to to take up the rest of the C02 produced and photosynthesize it back into usable oxygen, and maybe even dpf filters attached to cows asses to reduce emmisions :)

30-60 dollars per month? How do you figure that? You drive over 5,000 miles per month?

This might have already been asked but will the urea work if you take the dpf off. I would also like to say that I'm kinda at a disappointment with all the aftermarket companys because why have they not come out with a aftermarket dpf. Or maybe even test the emmisions with twin turbos and a clean tune to show Gm that makeing good power doesn't have to come with so much extra stuff. I don't know if its possible but maybe I don't know everything there is to know about diesels but I just think something else could be done but maybe not.

its a 5 gallon tank, and by the time its widespread in a few months, urea will be 2.50-3.00/gallon
your almost there I just read in my participant guide for the new course its 5.3 gallons

so an extra 30-60 dollars a month, unless the price magically drops by 13 dollars a gallon as soon as it becomes "popular"? haha thats great...next i think we should plant plants after the dpf to to take up the rest of the C02 produced and photosynthesize it back into usable oxygen, and maybe even dpf filters attached to cows asses to reduce emmisions:)
the 16 is waht it costs at the dealer. and I heard somewhere that the govt wanted to tax pig farmers because of all the gas pigs produce.

the 16 is waht it costs at the dealer. and I heard somewhere that the govt wanted to tax pig farmers because of all the gas pigs produce.

Let me get this straight. I don't know of many posters on here that are stupid enough to buy their routine maintenance items at the dealer (ie. oil filter, fuel filter, tranny filter, etc), because of the price.
But suddenly the only place people think they are going to be able to buy urea is the dealer and pay dealer pricing?????:eek:

By all accounts I've read DEF should be priced ~$3 gallon. If I had a DEF system, I'm pretty sure I'd buy my fluid ANYWHERE except the dealership.

Look for your local auto parts store to start carrying this stuff soon in gallon jugs priced under $5.

People really just need to educate themselves on DEF. All the people who are doomsayers right now are just uneducated about it.
Here's a link explaining it:
http://www.bigtrucktv.com/item.aspx?david_siler_2010_scr

Here's another link where you can buy DEF for $5/gal. There's not even a demand for this stuff yet but the supply is coming online.
http://www.electotronics.com/terracairdef002525gallonultrapuredieselexhaustflui d.aspx

I can get it for $ 3.18/gallon if I buy it in 55 gallon drums. That is the cheapest I have found it where I have an account.

the 16 is waht it costs at the dealer.

yeah, and allison spin-on filters cost 39.95 at the dealer too.

i wonder if you can delete the DPF and still use the urea?

I am wondering the same thing too.

i wonder if you can delete the DPF and still use the urea?
You should be able too. The two have nothing to do with each other!

Will urine work as a replacement for urea? My wife works in a local college microbiology lab and they use urea as a substitute for urine in the labs. Maybe the opposite will work in this application, we will do some pH testing to see if it will be a feasible replacement. I will post more later.

I'll take the urea for 1/3-1/4 less regens

I don't want emission controls but there's nothing we can do about it. Don't know why all the worrying about urea.....if it makes things cleaner and more economical with power. European diesels are real high tech and it works for them. Remember how people complained when airbags came out.....I'm real glad to have them. People griped about seatbelts, now you'd be crazy to not use it. Nobody likes change. Hell, the 2011 will be almost 400 and 750 which is good power. Just a tune - won't even have to be a big one - and those things will be fast.

Will urine work as a replacement for urea? My wife works in a local college microbiology lab and they use urea as a substitute for urine in the labs. Maybe the opposite will work in this application, we will do some pH testing to see if it will be a feasible replacement. I will post more later.
That would be cool... I'd be more for urea if I could stop on the side of the road and top off the urea tank. :D

I don't want emission controls but there's nothing we can do about it. Don't know why all the worrying about urea.....if it makes things cleaner and more economical with power. European diesels are real high tech and it works for them. Remember how people complained when airbags came out.....I'm real glad to have them. People griped about seatbelts, now you'd be crazy to not use it. Nobody likes change. Hell, the 2011 will be almost 400 and 750 which is good power. Just a tune - won't even have to be a big one - and those things will be fast.
I hate seatbelts with a passion. It seems like every time I want to lean forward a little to check my blind spot and there is very little time to make a move in traffic, then its gone, it locks up. The only reason you'd be crazy not to use it is because the cops are so bad about it. It generates revenue.

I hate seatbelts with a passion. It seems like every time I want to lean forward a little to check my blind spot and there is very little time to make a move in traffic, then its gone, it locks up. The only reason you'd be crazy not to use it is because the cops are so bad about it. It generates revenue.I hate that!! I thought that only happened to me! Always happens at the worst time:mad:

It happens in both of our GMT800 trucks, but mainly in my 02.

I hate seatbelts with a passion. It seems like every time I want to lean forward a little to check my blind spot and there is very little time to make a move in traffic, then its gone, it locks up. The only reason you'd be crazy not to use it is because the cops are so bad about it. It generates revenue.

Yeah you're right. The fact that a seatbelt might just save your or a family member's life is clearly a piss poor reason to use something that costs nothing.:badidea: It's amazing seatbelt and helmet laws are about saving lives but some people think its about generating money for their government.

I have spent most of my adult life working on Large Diesel Engines on Ships and Large Sea Going Tug Boat and Oil Barges. There is now talk about making some of these fleets retro-fit their engines with DPF's to lower emissions. They say that in some areas there will be no Grandfather clause.

As for me I do not like all of these regulations but unfortunately, I fear, that they are here forever.

My 05 runs great but I would, after the first year, consider moving up to a LML. Hopefully the fuel mileage is up and what we have all heard it true. If adding urea can make these engines rum cleaner and also help the fuel mileage then lets see what happens.

Just my 2 cents.

Tugs

Yeah you're right. The fact that a seatbelt might just save your or a family member's life is clearly a piss poor reason to use something that costs nothing.:badidea: It's amazing seatbelt and helmet laws are about saving lives but some people think its about generating money for their government.


Um ya if it wasn't about money, then why a fine if you don't wear it. HAHAHA:confused:

Um ya if it wasn't about money, then why a fine if you don't wear it. HAHAHA:confused:


Because if they were to pull you out of your truck and pistol whip ya for not wearing one, it looks bad for the police department.

:lol2: I think what he's trying to say is they need to have some kind of deterrent for disobeying the law, one which is constitutional. (hope I used that word right :o: )

Yeah you're right. The fact that a seatbelt might just save your or a family member's life is clearly a piss poor reason to use something that costs nothing.:badidea: It's amazing seatbelt and helmet laws are about saving lives but some people think its about generating money for their government.
You can say that, but then why have it legal to be able to ride in an open bed? Or the shirtless motorcycle rider without a helmet. Are those less dangerous than a person in a car without a seatbelt? :wtf1:

Because if they were to pull you out of your truck and pistol whip ya for not wearing one, it looks bad for the police department.
Cuz they make themselves look so professional. :rolleyes: Every instance that I have ever needed a cop, they screw me over and every time I don't need one, they screw me over. Especially when it comes to small town politics.

I am sure there are good cops out there, but I have only met one (cop that did the anti-drug lesson deals in 5th grade), and he is a tiny minority.

As far as deleting the dpf, but not the urea; im not sure how well that would work. I would bet it is pretty well balanced and far as mixing the DEF in the exhaust system. Without the restriction of the DPF could this 'mess up' the effectiveness of the urea? Just a thought. I'm thinking as far as deletes it will be all or nothing.

As far as deleting the dpf, but not the urea; im not sure how well that would work. I would bet it is pretty well balanced and far as mixing the DEF in the exhaust system. Without the restriction of the DPF could this 'mess up' the effectiveness of the urea? Just a thought. I'm thinking as far as deletes it will be all or nothing.And this right here is what most of us are curious about! Are you going to be able to remove egr, DPf and throw a tune on it? I'm not that much against the Urea as I am the EGR and PVC.

And this right here is what most of us are curious about! Are you going to be able to remove egr, DPf and throw a tune on it? I'm not that much against the Urea as I am the EGR and PVC.
Yeah, or be able to tune the truck not to limp because of urea.

Good posts Ben. If I buy a new truck, it'll stay stock. I'll be surprised if the gooberment/EPA doesn't come up with a law that holds aftermarket companies liable for creating devices that defeat emissions controls. The owner is already accountable for defeating emissions stuff but we take our chances anyway. Hey I shouldn't care what happens to the planet, I don't have any kids and once I'm dead who gives a crap. Whether you like what the EPA has done to clean up the air we breath or not, imagine what the air would be like if they hadn't stepped up to create and enforce some rules.

My bent is that I want diesel vehicles to progress and be more readily available. Current American mindset on diesels is they are smelly, belch black smoke and they need to get them off the road. As owners of vehicles that produce or can produce this negative image it's up to us to police ourselves. You may not give a crap about the public image
we present with our trucks but it will only come back to bite us in the ass. There are more of them than us and they have the power to dictate what happens, like it or not.

I'm just as far to the right in politics as many of you are but you don't have to be a tree hugger to see what total deforestation has created in the past. Same thing with all the vehicles on the road whether gas or diesel. Some refuse to see the effects we are having on the planet and call it liberal bullshit but consider the amount of exhaust we pump into the air from all sources. But I consider another heat source, the cooling we provide those heat sources. We take ambient air and send it through our radiators, air con units, generators etc and the end results is air at 200*F. The earth is a big planet and those heat sources might be miniscule in the over all scheme of things but to think that we aren't creating "some" kind of affect on the earth is just ignoring a lot of factors.
Take an environmental science class (yes it was required) and this stuff becomes relavent.

Using urea is but one step in trying keep the orb habitable and it has to start somewhere. But then what do I know, some of you put more miles on your truck in a month than I have in the 5 yrs I've owned mine. Shit happens I guess.

I'm gonna stay stock for awhile and see what efi does, I may cut the dpf off, open clean it out, and put it back on so that at glance everything looks right maybe I can keep my warranty :)

Buy a Dodge, they don't use SCR yet. FYI in Class 8 trucks fuel mileage is up with SCR. If you plan to keep your truck 10 years you might be justified in wanting it off, if not don't worry about it. I plan to keep my 2005 LLY for another 5 so 2015 ought to be intersting.

Can I be the first to piss in someones tank? lol, I want to see if this works...

Can I be the first to piss in someones tank? lol, I want to see if this works...

If it's anything like pissing on a camp fire you're not gonna like the result. ;)

Can I be the first to piss in someones tank? lol, I want to see if this works...

I dunno, try it.

Dont complain though when your truck throws a code (because its not stupid, it will know) and wont go faster than 4mph, and you have to have it towed to the dealer. And charged $$$$ by the dealer because they have to clean out the dirty tank by hand.

Is this joke ever going to get old? Honestly, are we still in 3rd grade... OMG IT USES UREA, THATS WHATS IN PEE PEE!! HAHAHAHAAH

ben

Lighten up buddy. It's a joke. For the record, I also still crack your mom jokes.

Lighten up buddy. It's a joke. For the record, I also still crack your mom jokes.

but those are still funny. :D

I agree trying to delete it is stupid and is against federal law. I have had my Audi Q7 3.0 TDi for almost a year now. It uses urea and holds 12 gallons. I can go more than 10,000 miles on that 12 gallons.

For those who think that they dont want the chance of running out and going into limp mode again. How many times a year do you run your truck out of diesel? If you run out of urea and ignore the messages telling you more than a thousand miles before it is to run out and then the 500 mile to go message and then the 100 mile to go message...Face it, you are in idiot.

My Audi prompts you at 1500 miles, then 500 miles, then 100 miles, then if you run out while driving it will not limp or quite, but once you turn it off it wont start until the urea is added. If you cant comply with this I dont even want to share the road with you.

You want a new truck with lots of power, this is the price you pay, live with it. I like power, I like diesels. I HATE seeing modded diesels smoking all over town giving diesels a bad name. Americans dislike diesels because they think they are loud and dirty, you're just perpetuating this. The new generation diesel cars could help us use so much less oil, but people are slow to buy them except for those that follow diesels.

Just my .02 cents

Where do u get urea from?

Where do u get urea from?

Some auto parts stores are starting to carry it in 1 or 2.5 gallon jugs. You could also check your local diesel supply and/or truck stop. If all this fails you can order it online, just google Urea or Diesel exhaust fluid.
It runs ~ $5 gallon.

Actually their is a NAPA not to far from here that carry's it now. It is called "BlueDEF". DEF being Urea or Diesel Exhaust Fluid.
I have a BMW 335Diesel Twin Turbo. I just had the urea filled up in its tanks 2 days ago. It was 8 hrs of work for the dealer. They not only had to refill the D.E.F tank but also reprogram the computer. Now, if they have to do that on a Duramax every time we need filled up which is about 14k on the BMW. That isn't to bad I guess. And I would assume that the Chevy is like the BMW. It wont start or move when your out or the reserve reaches an extremely low amount.

DEF is fancy talk and is used in the terms of Merc and the High end cars.
Urea is less fancy talk so we can understand what the hell it really is in our trucks.
But 9 times out of 10 we will be more educated on its use then the high end car owners.

I was just reading back also.
The newer dodge 6.7's don't use the Adblue, DEF, Urea system either. But if you don't want a DEF system looks like your buying one or goin back 10' model year or earlier.

Oh the pain of reading this entire thread.

There is so much contradiction here that it isn't funny. You don't like people telling you to run clean trucks but you make them dirty. GM ,the government is all bad but the chip guys who are hacks, don't test their stuff, don't warranty their stuff , make us use more fuel, spend more money, screw up the warranties and the service we get well they are the good guys right?

About all we accomplished here is proving we all live in glass houses and all throw stones.

Everybody, (not me) wants more power. GM gives it you you via the LBZ and gives you a warranty doesn't hurt your mileage and does so with reduced emissions. Mostly win win there but Well you throw that away with more chips more power more burnt fuel, etc by modding.

The LMM upscaled the features of the truck still more power then pre-06 with warranty , cleaner air but less mileage. Well we hack that away.

Now the LML . way more power, way cleaner air. warranteed and probably got close to re-turning to LBZ type mileage and still not happy.

Guess what everybody your all worse then the EPA because your never happy and keep on driving us to higher emissions and less mileage and and the manufacturers getting all pissy about modded trucks. The '05 class trucks pulled fine for all of what 2% of us and we still needed more power then then and want more mileage also. In the end ya have to look in the mirror to find the problem is what I think. How many of us actually tow with these trucks???

I have a BMW 335Diesel Twin Turbo. I just had the urea filled up in its tanks 2 days ago. It was 8 hrs of work for the dealer. They not only had to refill the D.E.F tank but also reprogram the computer.

But 9 times out of 10 we will be more educated on its use then the high end car owners.

I'm very interested in the 335d and X5 35d and looking for owner feedback. I don't know how to say this without sounding negative so don't take it personal. After reading last months Bimmer mag I don't know if I want a BMW now or not. Basically they said that the 06-2010 will cost the owner an arm and a leg after it comes off warranty. All the computers and reprogramming after every repair is pretty spendy and a price of up to $150 an hour for labor make it seem like this is a product that is only good for a lease vehicle. Maybe that's just the best way to approach it...short term ownership. I was really bummed to read that since I usually buy my vehicles for the long term.

SO with that said, I hope the diesel version is a much more reliable vehicle and your feedback remains positive. With 265 hp, 425 tq and 36 mpg it just specs out very very well. And then there is the handling aspects with the sport package. Diesel powered canyon carver...sounds like fun.

I'm very interested in the 335d and X5 35d and looking for owner feedback. I don't know how to say this without sounding negative so don't take it personal. After reading last months Bimmer mag I don't know if I want a BMW now or not. Basically they said that the 06-2010 will cost the owner an arm and a leg after it comes off warranty. All the computers and reprogramming after every repair is pretty spendy and a price of up to $150 an hour for labor make it seem like this is a product that is only good for a lease vehicle. Maybe that's just the best way to approach it...short term ownership. I was really bummed to read that since I usually buy my vehicles for the long term.

SO with that said, I hope the diesel version is a much more reliable vehicle and your feedback remains positive. With 265 hp, 425 tq and 36 mpg it just specs out very very well. And then there is the handling aspects with the sport package. Diesel powered canyon carver...sounds like fun.

I'm a Bimmer guy myself. Remember one thing not everything goes wrong with every vehicle. That said if you want to keep a Bimmer a long time and they will go that far then it cost some coin to keep it running like a Bimmer. Front ends go, so do shocks and in the older models the cooling systems went. All in all that is kind of normal maintenance but you need to work on them yourself or yes you will take it in the shorts. Plenty of great Bimmer forums and the parts are actually very reasonable.


Go to Bimmerforums and ask around. From what I have seen they haven't sold many of the diesel versions and for the life of me I don't know why this or that has to be re-programmed all the time. That only happens if you replace a major component from what I have come to see.

I was at the allison dealer today, urea is 2.50/gallon if you buy a 55 gallon drum of it. If you buy a 2 gallon jug it works out to about 2.80/gallon.

if people cant afford an extra 13 dollars every oil change than they shouldnt be driving around in a $50k+ truck....

I'm a Bimmer guy myself. Remember one thing not everything goes wrong with every vehicle. That said if you want to keep a Bimmer a long time and they will go that far then it cost some coin to keep it running like a Bimmer. Front ends go, so do shocks and in the older models the cooling systems went. All in all that is kind of normal maintenance but you need to work on them yourself or yes you will take it in the shorts. Plenty of great Bimmer forums and the parts are actually very reasonable.


Go to Bimmerforums and ask around. From what I have seen they haven't sold many of the diesel versions and for the life of me I don't know why this or that has to be re-programmed all the time. That only happens if you replace a major component from what I have come to see.

Thank you for the input Coolbreeze. If I keep my Max then maybe I can look into a 335d when I finish here. Have to use the same mindset that anything I buy now will just sit in storage and the warranty burns away. It sux to see 3 yrs worth of extended warranty just go to hell but that's the price I pay for glory. Another dumb comment.

Hey speaking of extended warrantees, I was reading about some GMPP thing and you have to be with in either 36 or 48 months. So at 60 months, guess I'm kinda hosed. Glad to see such longterm reliability out of the LLY (max in general I'm sure) or I'll be spending a lot of coin. Out

Too late to edit but if I bought my truck new in July 2005 and added a 5 yr/70,000 mile extended warranty, shouldn't I have like 3 yrs left on my extended? That's using a 3yr/36,000 mile base warranty. Isn't the engine warranty longer than 3/36? I'll have to see if I can find this info out from the selling dealer. Also means I better put the cat back on and remove the Banks programmer before I take it in for the 5 yr Dexcool change. Oh fun.

you don't extend as far as I know the warranty 5 additional years. You just extended it to 5 years from date of purchase. so you run out of warranty in 1 month or so. Engine warranty is 5 years or 100k miles but again from date of purchase. What you did by extending your warranty is extended the 3/36 to 5 70K from date of purchase.

Damn, Just read all 17 pages of this horse shit thread. What part of after treatment don't people understand. The engine will last just as long if it's there or not. It's called an after treatment for a reason.

ridered1515, how about you learn to spell politician first before typing it on a public forum. It's kinda makes you look like a tard when you are presenting an argument, which by-the-way, is full of hot air.

Ben, you're doing good man don't back down. i agree with you 100%. If i ever got a 2011 i would leave the SCR on because it doesn't hurt anything.

ShopSpecialties, I can see why you would be cautious about getting a 2011 with it being extremely cold where you are from. I would probably hold out too and see how it all plays out.

Ben,
You are coming off like a real jerk. I mean there are some valid points here, but you are just jumping down people's throats.

Personally I think the urea injection will be better then DPF, but remember how jacked up the AIR injection pumps of the seventies/eighties were.

Effeciency and reduced emmisions are the way to go but additional components and systems definitely can reduce reliability. We have SCR failures on our vehicles at work. We have had several failed jobs due to trucks going to into limp mode due to road related emmisions issues. (We use the road motor to run auxillary hydraulics.) I really think it was more of a learning experience for the crews, but it cost us some big dollars.

Once the system is reliable and the bugs are worked, it should be fine, but it will result in some faliures and limp modes for folks.

Did I mention the EGR cooler failed on my buddy's truck the other day on the way to Moab? Pumped all the coolant out the exhaust and the truck died. Had to use my 8.1 Avalanche to tow 15000 lb 800 miles over two 11000' passes.

Personally, if I had $50k, and they offered a manual transmission, I would be first in line for a new DMax due to the power and exhaust brake and new frame (and short bed 3500!). Unfortunately no manual transmission, and no power ball winnings so I will be stuck with my 3/4 ton Av.

Ben,
You are coming off like a real jerk. I mean there are some valid points here, but you are just jumping down people's throats.

Personally I think the urea injection will be better then DPF, but remember how jacked up the AIR injection pumps of the seventies/eighties were.

Effeciency and reduced emmisions are the way to go but additional components and systems definitely can reduce reliability. We have SCR failures on our vehicles at work. We have had several failed jobs due to trucks going to into limp mode due to road related emmisions issues. (We use the road motor to run auxillary hydraulics.) I really think it was more of a learning experience for the crews, but it cost us some big dollars.

Once the system is reliable and the bugs are worked, it should be fine, but it will result in some faliures and limp modes for folks.

Did I mention the EGR cooler failed on my buddy's truck the other day on the way to Moab? Pumped all the coolant out the exhaust and the truck died. Had to use my 8.1 Avalanche to tow 15000 lb 800 miles over two 11000' passes.

Personally, if I had $50k, and they offered a manual transmission, I would be first in line for a new DMax due to the power and exhaust brake and new frame (and short bed 3500!). Unfortunately no manual transmission, and no power ball winnings so I will be stuck with my 3/4 ton Av.
x2. Its not like your truck is "emissions correct", so how can you lecture us on how the emissions are good and we are just being retarded? I am sure you don't have a catback exhaust. :p:

I know you are knowledgeable and a great asset to this site, but on the emissions stuff, you are being hypocritical.

you don't extend as far as I know the warranty 5 additional years. You just extended it to 5 years from date of purchase. so you run out of warranty in 1 month or so. Engine warranty is 5 years or 100k miles but again from date of purchase. What you did by extending your warranty is extended the 3/36 to 5 70K from date of purchase.

Thanks. Confirmed the extended warranty with the Serivce mgr and my truck is done with a warranty the end of July. Asked him about bringing my truck in if it's missing some parts. Not a problem. But hey I did order the Helms service manual set so it'll be up to me and the forums to keep her healthy from here on out. Nothin but a thing. :D

well the trucks are not even out yet/no ones even seen them yet, so I think your guess is as good as anyone else's. ;)

i have...

i have...

yes so has everyone else by now. I posted that back in march when they werent out............

if you work for GM and are going to respond to my above comment by saying something like "uhhhmm yeah I did see them back in march when you posted that....", then congradulations.

The point I was making is that anyone who would be even interested in doing a urea delete/had the capabilities to engineer a urea delete (read: efilive) hadnt seen them.

FWIW, they (efilive) still wont see them for another 6-months because GM has the ECM on the restricted parts list and you can only get one if its for a warranty replacment.

so anyone who is thinking about bothering EFILive or making anymore threads about "so when is efilive going to support them", please just leave it alone. Of course they already know we want LML support....... When Ross and Paul get the LML figured out, they will tell us. But until then, the only thing asking is going to do is make them frustrated. ;) :)

ben

The 2011 trucks can detect if the urea system has been tampered with. It will alert you as soon as the key is turned on, limit your speed right away to 55, then into limp mode shortly after.

pretty sneaky....but for what its worth my truck would have thrown a code when my dpf was removed......until someone came out with a program to trick the truck....where there is a will there is away....I have yet to see a computer system built by man that could not be overridden or undone by another computer built by a smarter man

pretty sneaky....but for what its worth my truck would have thrown a code when my dpf was removed......until someone came out with a program to trick the truck....where there is a will there is away....I have yet to see a computer system built by man that could not be overridden or undone by another computer built by a smarter man


Agreed!!!!!

yes so has everyone else by now. I posted that back in march when they werent out............

if you work for GM and are going to respond to my above comment by saying something like "uhhhmm yeah I did see them back in march when you posted that....", then congradulations.

The point I was making is that anyone who would be even interested in doing a urea delete/had the capabilities to engineer a urea delete (read: efilive) hadnt seen them.

FWIW, they (efilive) still wont see them for another 6-months because GM has the ECM on the restricted parts list and you can only get one if its for a warranty replacment.

so anyone who is thinking about bothering EFILive or making anymore threads about "so when is efilive going to support them", please just leave it alone. Of course they already know we want LML support....... When Ross and Paul get the LML figured out, they will tell us. But until then, the only thing asking is going to do is make them frustrated. ;) :)

ben

You think they will wait 6 months until they can order a ECM from GM? I doubt that, I bet the day you can buy a LML from the dealer they will have one at their shop trying to crack it weather they buy it or its someone elses.

Again I ask WHY????????!!!!!!!!!!!

The urea system on these trucks does NOT rob any power from the engine. It does not cost ANYTHING in fuel economy.
The ONLY downside to it is having to fill the urea tank every 5-6000 miles at a cost of ~ $20-$25.

You guys are gonna spend a few hundred or more trying to delete this from a new truck. It makes ZERO sense and only accomplishes a voided warranty and more polluting truck.

Again I ask WHY????????!!!!!!!!!!!

The urea system on these trucks does NOT rob any power from the engine. It does not cost ANYTHING in fuel economy.
The ONLY downside to it is having to fill the urea tank every 5-6000 miles at a cost of ~ $20-$25.

You guys are gonna spend a few hundred or more trying to delete this from a new truck. It makes ZERO sense and only accomplishes a voided warranty and more polluting truck.


Because I can!!

i think urea is good idea, why would you want to delete something that is giving a mpg increase? The dpf is the downfall to these trucks.

Have you seen where they mounted the tank on a Dually? Looks like crap!

yea but if you delete the DPF will you not have to delete the urea?

Because I can!!

Yup, you can.

You can also:
Jump off a cliff;
Shoot yourself in the foot;
Volunteer for a frontal lobotomy performed by a first year med student.

Each one of those makes as much sense as deleting the urea system on the truck.

There is a guy on the wheel thread who got rid of his TPMS sensors cause, " they are federally mandated crap". He is now complaining cause his DIC "idiot" light won't turn off.

I told him his "idiot" light needs to stay on.

Like I said earlier, deleteing the urea system doesn't accomplish anything. But some idiots will do it anyway.
I guess it's true, "You can't fix stupid":duh:

Yup, you can.

You can also:
Jump off a cliff;
Shoot yourself in the foot;
Volunteer for a frontal lobotomy performed by a first year med student.

Each one of those makes as much sense as deleting the urea system on the truck.

There is a guy on the wheel thread who got rid of his TPMS sensors cause, " they are federally mandated crap". He is now complaining cause his DIC "idiot" light won't turn off.

I told him his "idiot" light needs to stay on.

Like I said earlier, deleteing the urea system doesn't accomplish anything. But some idiots will do it anyway.
I guess it's true, "You can't fix stupid":duh:

It's preference, I don't feel like jumping off a cliff I feel like deleting my urea and dpf so I don't have to worry about limp mode not a light. Were not all hippy tree huggers here its preference dick not logic. We do what we want to when we want to for our own reasons not for the approval of what you think is right.

I bet the day you can buy a LML from the dealer they will have one at their shop trying to crack it weather they buy it or its someone elses.

if you want to pay $100,000+ to have a dmax converted to RHD and shipped to austrailia/new-zeland, Im sure the efilive guys would be more than happy to accept your offer and start working on the new ECM right away. ;)

ben

It's preference, I don't feel like jumping off a cliff I feel like deleting my urea and dpf so I don't have to worry about limp mode not a light. Were not all hippy tree huggers here its preference dick not logic. We do what we want to when we want to for our own reasons not for the approval of what you think is right.

I understand the personal preference thing. I also understand the DPF delete. The thing that makes no sense is the urea delete. Limp mode for forgeting to fill your urea tank would be the result of extreme laziness or stupidity. Urea is already available at my local auto parts store. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see walmart selling it within a year.

My point is there is NO upside to deleting the urea system. The only things you accomplish by it are depleting your bank account of some funds and making your truck pollute more.

Has nothing to do with tree hugging. Just plain old common sense.:rolleyes:

I understand the personal preference thing. I also understand the DPF delete. The thing that makes no sense is the urea delete. Limp mode for forgeting to fill your urea tank would be the result of extreme laziness or stupidity. Urea is already available at my local auto parts store. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see walmart selling it within a year.

My point is there is NO upside to deleting the urea system. The only things you accomplish by it are depleting your bank account of some funds and making your truck pollute more.

Has nothing to do with tree hugging. Just plain old common sense.:rolleyes:

so glad Im not the only person who is "crazy" around here. :D

I love how everyone whines about how "thats so stupid, the truck goes into limp mode if you let the tank run dry, wtf!!".

Yet they dont complain/think about that their engine will also go into 'limp mode' if they let the fuel tank run dry!! DUH.

Personally, I can't wait until someone cracks this new ecm. I'm excited to see what kind of HP this thing can really hit! I think this whole moral/emmisions thing is stupid. It's exactly like the snowmobile "loud can" topic. One guy asks a simple question and few clowns want to shove their morals down your throat!

Nothing to do with the tree hugging yet every time you bring you up emissions and pollution. The global warming thing is BS, if you travel and look at history, cities that used to have oceans by them in turkey like the city of ephisis the ocean now is 12 miles away, the world changes, nobody can explain it it just does, but we always need an explanation are someone are something to blame it on hence global warming. The sea is rising etc etc... I am not sure of this but I think the dpf and urea work together so if you remove one might as well do the other, good thing for me my bank account is very healthy and in no threat of depleting, so as far as i am concerned if I want your opinion are what you think is common sense I will ask for it, till then BACK OFF!!

If the truck pulls and mileages as well as GM claims I'm gonna leave it alone. I can tell you that my '08 CCSB 4WD with 33's would average 18-19 MPG at 70 MPH unloaded, but my dad's bone stock '08 ECSB 2WD will average 16.5-17 MPG at 70. I have been borrowing it until my new truck arrives, so I've had some good driving time with it. I'm hoping the LML will hit the numbers of my '08 without me touching it. Neither of you are going to convince the other of your argument, so the pissing matches are pointless. I can tell you that as a whole, most of the trucks produced will keep the emissions stuff in place. For me, I'm perfectly fine with the emissions stuff if my truck will do everything I want it to do. But, it's my truck. Agree or disagree, but people are going to delete the emissions stuff. Some don't like having emissions stuff, some want it louder, some want the truck to make another 150+ HP and 300+ TQ, etc. For me, i like having one vehicle I can just turn the key and go. It's everything else I own with four wheels that i get carried away with. :D

Nothing to do with the tree hugging yet every time you bring you up emissions and pollution. The global warming thing is BS, if you travel and look at history, cities that used to have oceans by them in turkey like the city of ephisis the ocean now is 12 miles away, the world changes, nobody can explain it it just does, but we always need an explanation are someone are something to blame it on hence global warming. The sea is rising etc etc... I am not sure of this but I think the dpf and urea work together so if you remove one might as well do the other, good thing for me my bank account is very healthy and in no threat of depleting, so as far as i am concerned if I want your opinion are what you think is common sense I will ask for it, till then BACK OFF!!

So Nox doesn't cause acid rain. Acid rain doesn't kill fish trees, etc, etc? Excess emissions don't cause respiratory issues? Not a tree hugger and hated the global warming debate but the modding really is questionable. You get modest if any gains. Many don't use these trucks for the intended use and for sure they are worth less and will end up in the junk yard quicker. Your right it is your money, but that doesn't change the facts. Hope one of your kids never has asthma.

The Urea saves you re-gens and gives cleaner air so that is a win win, e.g more mileage less emissions but we have to question that FACT. I would also bet that over time romping around with programmers on the truck will light up more CEL's and limps then DPF or Urea if maintained correctly would.

If the truck pulls and mileages as well as GM claims I'm gonna leave it alone. I can tell you that my '08 CCSB 4WD with 33's would average 18-19 MPG at 70 MPH unloaded, but my dad's bone stock '08 ECSB 2WD will average 16.5-17 MPG at 70. I have been borrowing it until my new truck arrives, so I've had some good driving time with it. I'm hoping the LML will hit the numbers of my '08 without me touching it. Neither of you are going to convince the other of your argument, so the pissing matches are pointless. I can tell you that as a whole, most of the trucks produced will keep the emissions stuff in place. For me, I'm perfectly fine with the emissions stuff if my truck will do everything I want it to do. But, it's my truck. Agree or disagree, but people are going to delete the emissions stuff. Some don't like having emissions stuff, some want it louder, some want the truck to make another 150+ HP and 300+ TQ, etc. For me, i like having one vehicle I can just turn the key and go. It's everything else I own with four wheels that i get carried away with. :D

Trevor well said it's preference thing!!

So Nox doesn't cause acid rain. Acid rain doesn't kill fish trees, etc, etc? Excess emissions don't cause respiratory issues? Not a tree hugger and hated the global warming debate but the modding really is questionable. You get modest if any gains. Many don't use these trucks for the intended use and for sure they are worth less and will end up in the junk yard quicker. Your right it is your money, but that doesn't change the facts. Hope one of your kids never has asthma.

The Urea saves you re-gens and gives cleaner air so that is a win win, e.g more mileage less emissions but we have to question that FACT. I would also bet that over time romping around with programmers on the truck will light up more CEL's and limps then DPF or Urea if maintained correctly would.

Here we go another guy with a stupid comment, had to bring kids into that one, don't worry about my family are my situation comment was not even necessary. I do use my truck for it's intended use, I have over 20,000 acres of property that I have to work with down here in south texas constantly pulling big loads. I have an 05 with 116,000 miles modest tune on it from efi live, straight pipe exhaust, and thanks to efi live I had no lights come on and never any big problems with the truck. All you have to do is take care of them and not force them when your hauling, let the truck do what it wants to on the hills. So no I think your last statement is incorrect.

Just a thought here.......... People Post questions and comments on here to gather information and opinions.........

If you dont like someones opinion STF up and let it be........

No worries, Internet is free, Opinions are like Arse Holes, we all got them. If you ask a question or state your opinion on the internet, you have to expect that not everyone is going to agree.......... In fact someone may disagree LMFAO.

Does it really matter?????

Just saying...........:confuzeld

Just a thought here.......... People Post questions and comments on here to gather information and opinions.........

If you dont like someones opinion STF up and let it be........

No worries, Internet is free, Opinions are like Arse Holes, we all got them. If you ask a question or state your opinion on the internet, you have to expect that not everyone is going to agree.......... In fact someone may disagree LMFAO.

Does it really matter?????

Just saying...........:confuzeld

Thanks for your ten cents worth, it was great advice, My problem isn't opinion based my problem is when somebody comes in and gets personal calling you stupid are being disrespectful what are we in high school, not even called for I don't get personal unless I have to return the favor.

Thanks for your ten cents worth, it was great advice, My problem isn't opinion based my problem is when somebody comes in and gets personal calling you stupid are being disrespectful what are we in high school, not even called for I don't get personal unless I have to return the favor.

Alright Ted one last time.
You want to delete the DPF, I get it. I don't think its worth it, but at least there is a valid arguement for it. DPF does use more fuel, (~3% on LMM's, <2% on LML's).
Deleting the Urea system is completely pointless. You will get ZERO power or economy gains by deleting it.
I see no reason why the aftermarket can't delete one or the other or both. They are separate systems.

In the end you are right about one thing. It is your money and you are free to waste it if you want.

As far as the whole global warming thing goes, I didn't bring it up once, you did. I just mentioned urea reduces polution from the truck. Last time I checked air quality is still a problem in nearly every large city in the country.

I don't care if you believe in global warming or not. As some others have pointed out there are other issues clearly affected by pollution.

Look at it this way, do you want someone dumping their garbage in your front yard? After all they CAN do it. Leaving a mess behind for others to deal with is irresponsible.
Urea is one of the few emision controls that seems to be a "win-win". Better power, mileage, and cleaner; all at the same time. Like I said before, common sense is to leave it alone.
Go ahead and delete your DPF, it does a good job at what its designed for as well, but the 2% fuel economy loss is just too much for some people to bear.

Just cause we are having fun lets try this angle. Many say "I want a simpler truck". Well go and get one however take a little history lesson first.

One could easily argue and argue correctly in fact that the EPA emissions stuff enacted over the last 30 years or so has actually forced the manufacturers to make more powerful,cleaner burning engines well that are just better in everyway. Total win, win everywhere. Even the DPF. They didn't take away any power but it cleaned up what 90% of NOx emissions? Nox is bad, acid rain is real bad. For those who wanted an "efficient diesel engine" well they kept the power levels intact so it can pull more. That is efficiency also.

Even go back 10 to 15 years. Now we have fly by wire diesels, very sophisticated variable valve timing in gas engines, and going to direct injected gas engines etc, etc. There is one thing you can bet on that "things will advance". They may not seem like it but they are. If we could all ride out the little pit falls in the road we would have far less gray hair and likely more money in our pockets. But alas we are Americans and can be marketed old stale dirt via the internet and that is as certain as "things will advance".

Last is that folks whine about mileage yet go street racing a diesel truck around. Hey I can even understand the EPA thing but whining about mileage just to smoke tires all the time well that for sure makes no sense at all.

It's actually funny to me how worked up people get, but good entertainment. For the record I have no intention of doing the exhaust, part of the reason I am ditching my current truck, my wife hates it and it does get loud and old. I believe I have even stated this before, now if someone wants to do it and there here asking questions for help then lets help not call people stupid and get personal it's pointless and goes nowhere fast.

If I could afford to give up the warranty and fix anything I broke,I'd mod the crap out of my new truck,but I can't afford a new motor if something goes wrong.I don't blame other people who want to and can afford too.If I still have the truck when the warranty is either gone or I feel I can afford to take a chance or I just think the truck really sucks the way it is,I will do some mods,but I won't take stuff off that doesn't give me a power gain or allow me to make more power gains.Back more on topic,other than the hassle of refilling and worrying about limp mode,is there any other draw backs known yet?If that is all the draw backs and I can help clean the air up by leaving it on I will,but if we find that it is holding the trucks back,I will consider removing it.

If I could afford to give up the warranty and fix anything I broke,I'd mod the crap out of my new truck,but I can't afford a new motor if something goes wrong.I don't blame other people who want to and can afford too.If I still have the truck when the warranty is either gone or I feel I can afford to take a chance or I just think the truck really sucks the way it is,I will do some mods,but I won't take stuff off that doesn't give me a power gain or allow me to make more power gains.Back more on topic,other than the hassle of refilling and worrying about limp mode,is there any other draw backs known yet?If that is all the draw backs and I can help clean the air up by leaving it on I will,but if we find that it is holding the trucks back,I will consider removing it.


Like anything will have to give it time to see how it works. Of it becomes a problem I will no doubt remove it, but my sister in laws audi seems to be working really well and it does have the Urea tank. Hopefully it works!

now that its here i wonder if anyone will make a new type of tanks? one that isnt as massively out there. you know maybe longer and thinner.

now that its here i wonder if anyone will make a new type of tanks? one that isnt as massively out there. you know maybe longer and thinner.


I hear ya man, the place where they decided on putting that urea tank is unacceptable.

If they want to leave it outside the frame rails, that's fine, but yes, GM, how about a longer and thinner tank that won't be sticking out so much?

Ya'll could save a lot of money by being content to drive one of these damn things the way they come from the factory. Unless you have a degree in automotive or mechanical engineering and for best long term performance and reliability, ie driving code free, simply leave them alone.

Ya'll could save a lot of money by being content to drive one of these damn things the way they come from the factory. Unless you have a degree in automotive or mechanical engineering and for best long term performance and reliability, ie driving code free, simply leave them alone.

What would be the fun in that? :D

Not to be throwing fuel on the fire but I think some on here are interested in removing the Urea system because it works in conjunction with the DPF. If the DPF is removed why would you still need the Urea?

I had a 08 and did a complete turbo back exhaust as well as a tuner to remove DPF regens. I did see an increase in MPG. Guessing others want to do the same with their 11's to achieve the same results....

Not to be throwing fuel on the fire but I think some on here are interested in removing the Urea system because it works in conjunction with the DPF. If the DPF is removed why would you still need the Urea?

I had a 08 and did a complete turbo back exhaust as well as a tuner to remove DPF regens. I did see an increase in MPG. Guessing others want to do the same with their 11's to achieve the same results....

Except you won't achieve the same results.

The Urea is mainly for NOX emissions. THere are 2 ways to control NOX. Run a lot of EGR, which causes soot which causes frequent regens, or use Urea and use less egr which equals less soot and less regens, and better mileage.
The DPF catches soot. when it fills up, it must regen.

Two very different systems. A good case could be made for doing deletes on pre 2011s. It is much harder to justify now

Except you won't achieve the same results.

The Urea is mainly for NOX emissions. THere are 2 ways to control NOX. Run a lot of EGR, which causes soot which causes frequent regens, or use Urea and use less egr which equals less soot and less regens, and better mileage.
The DPF catches soot. when it fills up, it must regen.

Two very different systems. A good case could be made for doing deletes on pre 2011s. It is much harder to justify now

Its my understanding that this thread is really about removing the DPF.

Removing the urea system while retaining the DPF would have negative effects.

Ditch them both and get a tune, your truck will thank you!

Besides that urea tank is ugly!!!

That urea tank is SO UGLY! That tank is whats keeping me from buying the lml, the tank just looks like poop! I would delete both the urea and dpf.

What is going to happen here is that states are beginning to realize now just how many of you are deleting these emissions components and will eventually pass laws requiring more extensive emissions testing every year as part of the state inspections just like they already do on gas engines.

You keep this up and what is now a simple safety inspection that costs $12/year on my diesel will become the full blown sniff test that costs $39/year like it does on gas trucks.

Leave the systems alone and invest in a tunner that will work with the Tier 4 emissions if you need more power. Your messing around will only cost everyone more money in the long run....:cool:

39 bucks? I wish! I get to pay $50 a year for a full Diesel emissions test here on the front range of Colorado. They throw it on the rollers, load it up and sniff the exhaust. Sucks but unfortunately, the state of affairs around here.

39 bucks? I wish! I get to pay $50 a year for a full Diesel emissions test here on the front range of Colorado. They throw it on the rollers, load it up and sniff the exhaust. Sucks but unfortunately, the state of affairs around here.

Right now it's only $12 because they just check the horn, wipers and lights. Full emissions testing like you have is just around the corner, especially with all the DPF and EGR removal going on.

Right now it's only $12 because they just check the horn, wipers and lights. Full emissions testing like you have is just around the corner, especially with all the DPF and EGR removal going on.

You are spot on,

In Cali you have to smog it when you sell it, buy it, and every 2 to 5 years depending on how old it is, and the smog station is hard wired to the States database, SO if you fail they know immediately, fail repeatedly and you have a "gross polluter" attached to your registration and title, then it's about like a salvage title.

My company now has to account for oil usage, if you buy 5000 gals of oil a year, you better pay to dispose of 5000 gals, or they assume you disposed of it illegally, spilt it, or burned it, all of which results in a fine that starts at $10k.

All off road diesel eqpt above 53hp now has to have a EPA number in red on the port side, about 4' high, or you cant work.

Alot of this stuff isn't Cali regs, it's EPA.

Coming, lol, it's here, just a matter of time till it get's to you.

I did a DPF delete on my LMM, and it just aint worth it, I was stopped in line at the Cal-NV border at a agricultural checkpoint, and they were randomly waiving diesel pickups to the side and doing visual inspections (including looking under the truck, while the second officer dipped your tank checking for red fuel. I got lucky that they had 2 under inspection, and they waived me on through (I had DPF delete and red)

I have since removed it, and have never run red since