Entrained Air [Archive] - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

BMDMAX

01-30-2004, 11:00 AM

The FASS only filters as it is setup to 10 micron. Zero benefit for us unless you change the filters. It is rated at 140GPH at 0 PSI so what will it flow at 10 PSI? I don't know since they do not give that data in their spec sheets but I have doubts it would serve as a complete lift pump solution that the high HP trucks need.

I looked at one at the Suncoast event. It looks to be built pretty well but I did not see where you could regulate the pressure on it (I probalbly just missed it) and I just don't know how well it will work on our trucks. I am sure some enterprising tester will let us know.

45 additional HP? Sheeeuuuuree. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif The boys over on the TDR dyno'ed one and they LOST a few HP in the equation.

I would stick with a 2 Mic pre or post solution any day.

Diesel Performance

02-01-2004, 04:03 PM

I am going to try to answer some of the questions being posted here about the FASS System.

The FASS System removes dirt, (3 or 10 micron filtration is available), water and entrained air/vapor. When most engine manufactures are testing their engines for horsepower, emission and etc. they have the fuel at optimum conditions. What I mean by that is the fuel is pre-filter, the fuel is at an optimum temperature and the fuel has virtually no air/vapor present.

The test cell is usually set up with the fuel tank at least 12 feet above the engine and the fuel is not being agitated (traveling down the road). The fuel has usually been there for some time which gives the entrained air plenty of time to escape. The return fuel from the engine is usually routed to another fuel tank, also not causing agitation. With this set up there is virtually no air/vapor in the fuel.

Compare this to your condition. The fuel tank is below the engine and at least several feet back. The fuel pump on the engine has to draw the fuel up with a vacuum. Whenever a liquid is under a vacuum air/vapor will be produced, hotter fuel produces more vapor. Now you start traveling down the road, you just introduced agitation which entraines air into the fuel. Agitation is usually what introduces the largest amounts of air into fuel. The longer you travel the more entrained air. Now how much fuel is in the fuel tank and what is the temp. of the fuel? These 2 variables will also determine how much air can be present in the fuel.

Caterpillar admits there is at least 10% air/vapor in fuel. Go to any troubleshooting manual and look under topics such as: low horsepower, poor fuel mileage, hard starts, inconsistent performance, excessive smoke and the list goes on. Under each one of these topics you will find 2 common possible problems, air in fuel or fuel restriction. Remember fuel restriction creates air/vapor.

To understand how air/vapor effects your engine you have to think of your fuel system as a hydraulic system, which it is. If you ever had air in the brake system on your car or truck it delays the braking of that vehicle. Well, it does the same to your fuel system. The reason for fuel injection is to inject a predetermined amount of fuel at a predetermined time. Air/vapor effects both of those. Air/vapor occupies space so you do not get the predetermined amount of fuel and air/vapor is also compressible so you do not get the predetermined time of the fuel being injected. Air/vapor delays the injection timing by milli-seconds. If you change the timing of any engine be it gas or diesel you will change the performance of that engine!

For the damage air/vapor causes to an injection system. Fuel is a lubricant. When air/vapor is in the place of fuel it can cause metal on metal contact. This is known as gaulding and scoring. Also when an air bubble goes from a low pressure to a high pressure condition implosion can occur. This situation can actually cause metal to be removed from injection components. Both of these effects the tolerance of injection components over a period of time to deteriorate.

We are about 2 - 3 weeks away from completing the kit for the Duramax. We believe the price will be around the same as the Dodge and the Ford kits which MSRP at $589.00.

We have put one on a Duramax and the individual loves it. He say's his fuel mileage is up a little over 1mpg, it is quiter and he can really tell a difference when he goes to pass some one. That is the best we have for horsepower numbers.

The FASS System will flow about 144gph at 10 - 18psi. This pressure can be adjusted. The pump is usually good for at least 600,000 miles. The water separator is basically a lifetime filter because it is sevicable. The fuel filter usually has a life of 30 - 50,000 miles. Cost on the fuel filter is $24.00 and the water separator is $18.50. The FASS System mounts beneath the bed of the truck on the outside of the frame

Bronco

02-05-2004, 12:36 PM

Hello Brad,

I have really enjoyed the phone conversations and emails that we have had. I am starting to develop a complete understanding of the product you are marketing. I was going to keep our discussions private, however since you opened up the floor on a public forum I thought I would take the time to ask you some questions.

First, let me make my current standings knowin to all. The Fass and Preporator both contain an exceptionaly high quality lift pump, water separator and fuel filter. These items alone have value. They will provide you with clean, water free fuel and lots of it!

My questions to you are more directed to the claims of horepower increase and entrained air removal. First, It is my understanding that your product provides much more benifit to fuel systems that are not so modern. Will we really see a big HP increase and emmisions reduction on a HPCR type system? I am not talking about HP gains from a lift pump. I am talking about HP gains due to he claim of more accurate timing. It is my understanding the high pressure common rail type systems were designed to eliminate this very issue?

Secondaly, Is your air separation technique as thourough as the Preporators? It is my understanding the Preporator uses a primary removal and a secondary removal system. While the Fass only uses the secondary type system?

Finally, many here have expressed concern about your lift pump not being adequate. Knowing the type of pumps these units use I see just the opposite. These type of pumps move some serious fuel. Have you done any testing too insure we are not overfeeding our system?

If I add up the cost of a high quality lift pump(200.00) Regulator(50.00) Filter/head (75.00) water separator/head(75.00) and plumbing/electrical (50.00) I come up with 450.00. Add a convience factor of 50.00 and that takes me to 500.00 even. With out the entrained air removal and HP increase I really cannot justify the additional expence of either the Turbo Fass and ecspecially the higher priced Preporator.

I understand the Preporator is a very good product for old systems. I am just not sure how your Fass is benificial for our Dmax, other than the previously mentioned items: Lift pump, water separator and fuel filter?

Thank you,

JeffEdited by: Bronco

problemchild

02-05-2004, 12:58 PM

Add 1 micron filtering @ 100% and you have something.

sdaver

02-05-2004, 01:58 PM

have one installed bought it for fuel supply issues and for now it seems to deliver. Not a hard install replaced my fm100. 3 micron filter on order. I purchased it for the volume it can supply.

Bronco

02-05-2004, 02:00 PM

Problem Child,

It is my understanding that due to the enormous amount of fuel that will be recirculated, the end result will be very clean fuel. Also the filters they choose are very good filters as well and they perform very well under these circumstances. Hopefully Brad(Fass) or Charles(Preporator) will chime in and address some of our questions!Edited by: Bronco

Bronco

02-05-2004, 02:04 PM

Sdaver,

Did you buy the Fass or Preporator? Did it come with plumbing or did you make the kit yourself? It is my understanding that both manufactures are still in the ptype stage. Preporator will actually be changing there model to smaller laydown stlye configuration vs. the upright lift pump.

sdaver

02-05-2004, 02:16 PM

fass.............parts fittings $40

Diesel Performance

02-07-2004, 12:05 PM

These are good questions and I will do my best to answer them.

I would like to answer the easiest question first. We now have the complete kit for the Duramax as we do have for the Dodge and Fords. The only item you will need for completing the kit will be wire ties. The complete kit is only $589.00!!

At this time I cannot give any numbers on horsepower because we simply do not have them. The only thing I can tell you is that the individual that has it on his Duramax can tell a big difference when he goes to pass someone. Plus the FASS System lowered his engine noise dramatically and improved his fuel mileage.

One thing I do know about the common rail and the new fuel systems is they do not remove air.

The fuel pump on the FASS System is usually good for at least 600 - 800,000 miles.

I cannot go into how we remove air/vapor from fuel at this time, this is directly from our patent attorney's office. What I can tell you is I have been involved with the Fuel Preporator from about 1992 to 2002. I discovered any easier/different way to removed air/vapor from fuel about 5 - 6 years ago. This process also allowed us to improve the new product over the old and drastically reduce the price. I would like to make this clear "The Fuel Preporator is a good product", I believe with the experiences that we have had our product is a little better.

Brad Ekstam

Mackin

02-07-2004, 02:38 PM

Brad

What is the availability of spin on filters ?? What comes standard for micron rating ?? How do you feel on running a 30 ish in front of the pump and 2 micron aft ?? Will it affect the units performance or ability ??

TIA

Mac

Bronco

02-07-2004, 04:42 PM

Brad,

If I understand your responses to my questions this is what you said.

1. Your unit is now available for 589.00

2. You make no claims of a HP increase.

3. You are not sure if there is a timing related issue due to entrained air in a HPCR system.

4. You are removing air, just in a different manner than the Preporator.

5.. You have not performed any destructive type testing for the Dmax in relation to overfueling.

Brad thanks for being actively involved in the discussion of your product. 589.00 sounds reasonable for a system that provides a lift pump, water separator and fuel filter. I am still not clear on the benifits of or capablity of removing entrained air. I am also unclear about the actuall pressure/flow these lift pumps spec at. 144GPH unresticted is not 144GPH at 12-15PSI. What is the GPH at 12-15PSI?It seems as though 12-15PSI could be a little high of a pressure to prefeed the HPCR system. Will the stock pressure regulator will be working constantly to maintain proper pressure? Where are you measuring pressure? Please feel free to correct any mistruths or misunderstandings I may have.

Edited by: Bronco

Diesel Performance

02-08-2004, 09:45 PM

Of course you can get the filter thru us but accompanied with every FASS System is a cross reference list of other filters. Our primary filter is a stainless wire screen mesh for water and large particles. The fuel filter is a 10 micron with 3 micron available. I would not suggest any different media for the water separator. The reason is because that can add stress to the lift pump.

We are not putting any #'s at this time on what the horsepower increases might be, we simply do not have them. The individual with the Dmax says he can tell that there is an increase especially when he goes to pass someone.

I know there is a timing related issued due to the fact that any time you add air/vapor to a hydraulic system that effects delivery/movement. A fuel system is a hydraulic system! I have dealt with class 8 engines for semi's that have around 30,000psi in the injector and we effect the timing on those engines. The reason I know this is because they have the capability to provide those reading right off the computer and we do change the readings. If you are at all interested I can provide those numbers. I just don't want to bore you with those numbers unless you are interested.

Brad Ekstam

Mackin

02-08-2004, 09:54 PM

Thanks for the info ....

Not overly concerned with the filter pre pump if you feel it is adequate for pump life with what is supplied ...

Most if all of us want 2um filtering capibilities ... I have that now with my Cat system installed pre OEM ...

I'm just not looking for a four filter system ... http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

I would like to eliminate my exsisting 2 um while adding it to the Fass system ...

Can a Pre pump and pump minus the "final" filter be purchased so I can plumb to my exsisting 2 um ?? Do you feel it will take away from the performance of the unit ??

Possible ?? Looking at my options when the time comes ...

Mac

Diesel Performance

02-08-2004, 10:05 PM

Hello Mac,

The unit is one piece so it all comes together. Concerning the 2 micron vs the 3 micron shouldn't even be a concern. The difference between the 2 and 3 micron is so miniscule especially since it has to go thru the factory filter. Also with our pump circulating the fuel thru the filters the way it does it is filtering the fuel in the tank about 3 times in a single hour. Another thing to remember is air/vapor can be more damaging than dirt. Air/vapor causes gaulding and scoring along with implosion.

Brad

Diesel Dragon

02-08-2004, 10:07 PM

Brad

Without giving away any of your patent secrets about how you get the air out of the fuel. Where does the removed air go? Do you have a return line to the tank to release the air? and about how much air are we talking about? I realize that diffrent situations have diffrent numbers but on average driving down the road how much air is entrained from sloshing and how much is removed?

Thx Diesel Dragon http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

P.S. Is there any way to regulate the fuel pressure so it can be brought downto a lower PSI. There's been some concern of overpressureing the factory unit.Edited by: Diesel Dragon

Diesel Performance

02-08-2004, 10:15 PM

Yes we do have a return line going back to the fuel tank. That is what slowed us down a little for the Dmax kit. It t's with the filler neck, we had to design a special fitting to do so and it is included in the kit.

The amount of air in fuel is a very good question due to the fact that it is very inconsistent.

Hotter fuel allow more vapor to be produced while under a vacuum while colder fuel will hold more entrained air from sloshing.

Remembering those two rules I'll give an example of the amount of air in fuel. After in travel for about 1.5 hours the air displacement in fuel from agitation is equal to the air/vapor being produced with 11 inches of vacuum.

BradEdited by: Diesel Performance

Diesel Performance

02-08-2004, 10:17 PM

Forgot the psi question. Yes it can be lowered.

Brad

Mackin

02-08-2004, 10:20 PM

Brad

Thanks for the information and thanks for coming on board at the Diesel Place ....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

Amric

02-08-2004, 10:27 PM

So just to make sure I understand everything:

When we order it, we can ask for a 3um filter and lower pressure, or will we have to make these changes ourselves?

When the filter needs to be changed, we have choices from several manufacturers.

Your kit includes everything we would need to install it on the Duramax including wiring harness and mounting brackets?

Diesel Performance

02-08-2004, 11:58 PM

The kit for the Dmax will have the 10psi spring in it all you have to do is specify that you want the 3 micron filter.

The kit for the Dmax comes with every piece of hardward for the installation. The only item you need to get are wire ties and the fuel line disconnect tool.

Brad

Bronco

02-09-2004, 12:17 AM

Hello Brad,

This one might hurt? It is no secret that the Preporator is designed and marketed by your father. You came up with your own way to remove air and are out on your own. If you talk with Charles he will tell you that you are possibly infringing apon his patent. He will also tell you that the FASS is not able to remove air as reliably as the Preporator. He states that you only have a secondary removal system and he has the primary and secondary due to your patent restrictions.I do not know what to believe and hope you will bring clarification to this issue. Also are you in any leagal jeopardy that might limit your future abillaty to service and warranty this product? I am not trying to discredit you or mettle in your personal affairs. I just want to know why I should trust that you will be here today and not gone tommorow? Regardless of patent or no patent I would still buy your product if you could somehow convince me (without giving your secrets away)that you are doing as effective of a job at removing entrained air as the Preporator.

Thank you,

Jeff

Diesel Performance

02-09-2004, 12:58 AM

Hello Jeff,

Because of the way you stated it I believe you are being sincere and not trying to start a war, so thank you and I will answer your questions.

Yes Charles will tell you we are infringing, we are not! Then Charles will tell you that we do not work. An infringment means you are accomplishing the same thing the same way. I do not understand how we could be infringing and not work!! Does that mean his doesn't work? How can he have it both ways? We have a patent filed, along with that patent being filed we also have a formal opinion from our patent attorney's office saying we do not infringe. They also give numberous reasons as to why we do not infringe. When our attorney gave us the formal opinion he put his law firm's neck on the chopping block if our patent was infringing. Before I wanted to invest more time in this arena I wanted to make sure I was doing it legally and more important ethically!! Charles has also known about our product since March of 2003. He hasn't filed an infringement suit because he nows we do not infringe and because of all of his writings on the TDR's website he also says why we are not infringing himself.

Now about air/vapor removal. I cannot give our secrets right now but I can tell you that from 1994 - 2002 when I was the major marketer (spelling?) for the Fuel Preporator I came across a different way to accomplish the same thing. I had a fluid engineer help me with this design. Our process also got rid of a few draw backs that are present in the Fuel Preporator which I cannot disclose right now. When we came out with this new design all I was trying to do was accomplish the same as the Fuel Preporator when it comes to the performance aspect. We had many Fuel Preporator customers in the semi market and when they found out about the FASS System they wanted to try it. At first there were 4 customers like this and they put the FASS on. All of them called back and asked why did they get more power and to this day we do not know why, but I think that is a good problem.

I have been in business since 1994 and I cannot guarantee to anyone how long we will be in business. Our financial shape is very strong due to our business strategy and we do have deep pockets.

I believe the reason we will be in business for years to come is because we offer a great product and more importantly awesome customer service. I get a real bad attitude when I receive poor customer service and we will make sure that our customers receive excellent service from us.

Brad Ekstam

Bronco

02-09-2004, 01:33 AM

Brad,

Thanks for the response. I intended no flames and I am glad you perceived it that way. This internet has a funny way of translating every thing into a nock dow drag em out BRAWL! Marketer or Marketeer according to Websters. I had to go out and buy a dictionary since I started visiting this forum. I am a victim of the calculator/spell check generation! Oh well, that is how I justify my ridicously large amount of time I spend here on the "Place" " But honey, I am learning how to spell!" " But honey I am protecting our truck and saving us money!" I am not sure if she is buying it? Brad can you list all of the filter cross references you know about? I know you gave me some before but I have lost my list. I believe Amric was inquring about this.

Diesel Performance

02-09-2004, 01:36 AM

I know it is late but I am in the office trying to catch up. Toll free 866-769-3747.

Brad

Bronco

02-09-2004, 03:11 AM

I have ordered a FASS unit. I should be receiving it within 2 weeks. I will be giving a complete review, including but not limited to billing, intructions,ease of installation, kit completeness, operating pressures, performance increase or decrease, engine noise, visible smoke customer service and technical support. I will attempt to locate a dyno. prior to installation. Any sugestions on the most affordable/accurate method of measuring fuel pressure on the Dmax?

sdaver

02-09-2004, 07:51 AM

at the test port, post oem filter, pre injector port.. mine is set to 7.5 psi the same as my fm 100 was for 30k miles +/-...........I have so far been pleased with its ability to supply fuel volume.

Searay90

02-09-2004, 10:55 AM

This may not exactly be scientific..... but one way to test if it is removing the air from the fuel is to put one on one of the trucks that has a megafilter that requires constant air bleeding. If the need to continually air bleed the mega filter goes away, then I would say that the FASS systems does in fact remove air.

Well on further analysis (thanks for the DP & Bronco http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif )...... I was reminded that a simple lift pump by itself will solve the Mega air bleed issue. So I guess my initial suggestion was just that........"not exactly scientific". So please disregard the above suggestion. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

Anyone going to step up and give this a try?? Maybe Brad could loan a system to one of our members in this "boat" and give them 30 days to try it out and see what happens.

Thoughts??Edited by: Searay90

Horse Trainer

02-09-2004, 11:32 AM

I have been working on a plan to cobble up a system, but given it is cold here and that my time is a lot better spent, I think I am going to give FASS a try. I already have my fuel line split for a tank selecter valve and a 2u Racor, so I need to get with Brad about dimensions. Given that I have gotten several really bad loads of fuel, I am thinking triple filters - overkill is my motto.

Bronco

02-09-2004, 01:11 PM

This may not exactly be scientific..... but one way to test if it is removing the air from the fuel is to put one on one of the trucks that has a megafilter that requires constant air bleeding. If the need to continually air bleed the mega filter goes away, then I would say that the FASS systems does in fact remove air.

Anyone going to step up and give this a try?? Maybe Brad could loan a system to one of our members in this "boat" and give them 30 days to try it out and see what happens.

Thoughts??

Read previous post! I have ordered a unit and am willing to be the guniea pig!. Just let me know what you want feedback on? As far as air separation is concerned it has already been proven by Abear,Jbplock and Chuntang95 that a lift pump alone will keep air out of the mega. I need info on a setup that has a clear site tube? This is the only way to verify air removal. Order yours now or wait untill I give feedback. The choice is yours.

Oldman

02-09-2004, 05:13 PM

Now you guys are making me mad! After reading through the thousands of posts I had decided on the Racor kit. Now this comes along. Sounds like the way to go but I do have one more question. Does this unit have a heater? If not, I'll stick with the Racor. If it does, and I don't recall it being mentioned, I'll have to do a bit more pondering.

Mackin

02-09-2004, 05:15 PM

No heater ....There your done ,now call Gregg ....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Diesel Performance

02-09-2004, 05:16 PM

Yes, it does have a heater.

Brad

Mackin

02-09-2004, 05:30 PM

Yes, it does have a heater.

Brad

Wooo pardon me sorry ....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Diesel Performance

02-09-2004, 05:36 PM

Hello Mac,

I believe we were both answering the previous note at the same time. So I had not seen your answer and I meant nothing by my answer. No disrespect was meant.

Brad

Bronco

02-09-2004, 05:37 PM

Oh common now. The heater is an oil or coolant type hook up. I do not know if that is the heater type we are talking about. A lift pump will complement any secondary fitration. The benifits of the Fass could only be marginaly better than running a lift pump in conjuntion with a secondary filter. I chose this setup because it is all in one and I also wanted to help the "place" with some feed back. Brad how about those filter cross references?

Diesel Performance

02-09-2004, 05:46 PM

The filter cross reference list is in every FASS package.

Brad

Bronco

02-09-2004, 06:43 PM

The water separator is loose at 100MICRON. Remember it is not designed to be a filter. Others have not been satisfied with this explanation and have found a NAPA replacement at 8micron. The filter itself is a CIM-TEK. # 70032. They have a cross reference chart on there website however my computer is technically challenged and cannot utilize this funtion. I believe there are several crossreference filters available. Fleetgaurd,Baldwin,Napa. I have not found a Racor yet?

Diesel Performance

02-09-2004, 06:50 PM

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Kennedy

02-09-2004, 06:57 PM

Putting a simple lift pump on the line will do all a guy needs it to do. Those with my Mega filter know just how well it collects air.

Those who have added a lift pump will also attest to the fact that there is NO air found after thousands of miles of driving. Shut the pump off, and the air is back.

Amric

02-09-2004, 07:13 PM

Oldman

02-09-2004, 07:57 PM

Oh common now. The heater is an oil or coolant type hook up. I do not know if that is the heater type we are talking about.

No it's not. I need an electric, can't wait for the engine to get warm. I didn't realize they were other types. So, does the FASS have an electric heater?

Bronco

02-09-2004, 10:22 PM

If I am correct thr FASS only has fittings that allow you either to hook up collant or oil. This is not the same as a electric heater. Specifically when your truck is still cold.

As far as the lift pump vs. Fass is concerned. There are 2 different types of air we are talking about. It is believed by some that all fuel contains entrained air. Putting the fuel under vacum causes the air to separate. So by adding a lift pump you are encouraging the air to stay in the fuel.

Fass is claiming they can actually separate out this entrained air and send a fuel/air solution back to the filler neck. You never really remove the air from the fuel. You are just sending the pure fuel to the engine and air/fuel back to the tank. I suppose some of the air/fuel mixture dumping into the filler neck could actually rise. Then it would rise to the gas cap and then what?

Amric

02-09-2004, 10:39 PM

Whas it covered in this thread if fuel can still flow if the lift pump fails?

Bronco

02-09-2004, 11:41 PM

Amric,

Is that your Jeep? What is it? You will have to ask Brad about what happens when the pump dies. I think his first response will be that it will never die. I think his second response will be it should not hurt as long as the filter is not plugged to much. The Preporator people told me they have a bypass on theres but the Fass will not run? Once again I do not know who to believe. Abear and crew have there lift pumps hooked up with a manual bypass. Good idea if you ask me.

Diesel Performance

02-10-2004, 09:21 AM

The FASS System does have a by-pass path already built into the unit. As mentioned earlier the only way the engine's lift pump could not pull through it is if the fuel filter is extremely plugged.

The fuel heater uses coolant. What helps us with cold starts is that the fuel pump on the FASS is very strong. Example: I have let my truck sit overnight at -17 degrees and I added no additives to the fuel. The pump was strong enough to push the gelling fuel to the engine to where the engine could start and the process of warming the fuel started. I knew the fuel was gelling because of how slow my fuel pressure gauges were climbing. Just think if you put some additives in on how low the temp could go before shutting you down!

Brad

Oldman

02-10-2004, 11:45 AM

The fuel heater uses coolant.... I have let my truck sit overnight at -17 degrees and I added no additives to the fuel. ..... Just think if you put some additives in on how low the temp could go before shutting you down!

That pretty much settles it for me. -17 is nothing up here. My truck will see -50 to -70 up in the interior. I haven't found an additive yet that says it's good below -40. I need an electric heater. No one makes a pump that will push molasses!!

HoustonDMax

02-10-2004, 01:29 PM

I have a Mega, with clear hose attached to the bleeder port ("cheap clear sight glass"). With lift pump out of plumbing, I get enough air collected to empty the hose of fuel in about 160 miles. With the lift pump, I am replacing no fuel in the hose with air, even after thousands of miles.

My experience, keeping the system under slightly positive pressure has eliminated my air trapping problems.

JK is right. When my lift pump power connection to my OPS worked its way loose, I was right back to having start/stalls.

I had previously tried everything I could to find the source of my air, with no luck. All connections redone or replaced, fQDs removed, fuel filter head tore apart, different MEGA nipples from JK, etc. The only thing that has worked for me is a lift pump.

Amric

02-10-2004, 06:41 PM

Amric, Is that your Jeep? What is it?

Ya, its mine. It is my pride and joy. You can see details and great photos here http://www.ntinnovations.com/Jeep. I originally bought the Duramax so I could tow the Jeep around, but now, its become a hobby all to itself.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big%20Smile.gif

speedracer

02-10-2004, 08:43 PM

Bronco

Ok, What's the deal with this set-up, You have it installed yet, First I hear about the dirt and crap getting past the cheesy OEM filter, So I get the Nictane, I was feeling pretty good, Now I got Air to worry about? Man what's next? Real curious about anyone who's had it running on their rig and what they think about it? I wish I could filter my Blood as well as we filter these Duramax's.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif So what's the scoop?

Bronco

02-10-2004, 11:53 PM

Speed Racer,

I have not even recieved my Fass yet. I volunteered to pay for extra shipping but was told the earliest it could ship was Friday the 13th. Which will then take anither week to get to my door. I hope to install it the weekend of 21/22. To my knowledge Super Dave Osbourne is the only one here on this sight that is currently running one? As far as you just installing a Nicktane and feeling good I think you should continue to. Many users of the Nicktane have reported similar results as the Fass. Smoother idle and cleaner fuel. There could be benifit to having a huge resovoir of fuel in the rear of the truck, such as the Nicktane? As far as filter quality, you have one of the top 3 in the world right on your own truck. You should feel pretty good about that.

You need to understand my thinking before you get caught in any hype. I am on the market for several upgrades. The end result will be a vehicle that is capable of putting down some good times at the track. High 13's would make me extremely happy. So lets work backwards for a second. High 13's needs some serious fuel flow. I felt you just are not guarenteed that with the stock fuel pump. That puts me on the market for a lift pump. Now I know you need good filtering so that puts me on the market for a secondary fuel system. The Fass caught my attention because it adressed the concern of secondary filtration and a lift pump in one fail swoop. If? removing entrained air is an added benifit, then I stand nothing to loose. If you are concerned about entrained air and already have invested time and money in a secondary filter I would look more at a lift pump alone rather than the Fass. Abear,Jbplock and Chuntag95 have devoloped a neat system using an ACDELCO lift pump. I was very interested in there lift pump creation, however went with the Fass for the benifit of this site. I am serious about doing a dyno comparison and also taking fuel pressure readings. This should help us all learn more. The fact that the only mods. my truck has is exaust will help us all get a baseline to see if there is really smoother idling, reduced emmisions and more passing power. The hardest thing about my testing will be determing what benifits came from the lift pump alone and what beniifts came from the air separator??Edited by: Bronco

speedracer

02-11-2004, 08:27 PM

Bronco

Thanks for the Info, yes the Fuel Filtering Hype is reaching new levels, I feel pretty good about my Secondary Filtering now, I would be really Paranoid if I had not installed it. There has been much discussion about how a Lift Pump might effect our Warranties, and also a thread or two about just where does the air go? Pushed through the injectors, or ??? So this Fass system peeked my curiousity!

Bronco

02-13-2004, 10:56 AM

Hello,

The following is a email I received from a govermental agency I have been in contact with. They have done exstensive testing funded by your tax dollar.
<DIV>
Hello,</DIV>
<DIV>
</DIV>
<DIV>
I just thought by some chance you might be able to give me some priceless information. I own a 03 Chevy 2500 Duramax. I am researching all of my filtering/additive options. I stumbled across you wesite and noticed you are in charge of research in new technologys. You have the fuel preporator or FASS listed as an item you were going to be studing. I happen to be trying to find independent testing results on this product. The price is 650.00 to 1100.00 dollars so I want to make sure this thing is not snake oil. Any and all information you have would be greatly appreciated. I know you are busy and this is not directly part of your job but never the less I thought I would try. Thank you for your time in advance.</DIV>
<DIV>
</DIV>
<DIV>
Jeff</DIV>
<DIV>
Colorado</DIV>
Hello,

Sorry for the delay in answering your e-mail. Yes, we have tested a fuel preporator and a report is being written. The testing proved if there is air in the fuel line the preporator will remove it restoring the engine to its ideal working condition (horsepower, fuel economy, and emissions). We were not able to increase the performance or improve emissions over the manufacturers' specifications. Hopefully, this is the information you were looking for if not feel free to contact me again.

Thanks,

habanero

02-13-2004, 11:44 AM

Okay, I'll bite. What was the governmental agency and why were they doing the testing?

Bronco

02-13-2004, 12:26 PM

speedracer

02-13-2004, 01:22 PM

So how much of a concern is Air in the fuel system? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Bronco

02-13-2004, 01:48 PM

????

ArrBee

02-17-2004, 08:59 AM

I think I (still) understand basic physics, the laws havn't been recinded or declared unconstitutional. I've had a few refresher classes for scuba diving, with decompression theory beyond the shaken soda bottle demonstration. I think I understand most of the stuff about gasses dissolved (or suspended) in liquids. OK, so diesel fuel can produce foam when agitated, but the product's claim isn't about that, so I'm wondering where the magic is. Unless this product is putting the fuel under considerable vacuum (more than a mere lift pump) for a considerable amount of time... how does the dissolved or suspended air get out ? and isn't ambient pressure forcing it back in ?

Puzzled in Mass

Shannon

02-18-2004, 09:19 AM

Hey Mac,

maybe we can put a fass system on your truck, and dyno before and after to see if there is any hp or tq gain. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

ArrBee

02-18-2004, 03:23 PM

Its not about biting it's about making informed puchases. The govt. agency has not released there report yet so I will refrain from comment. They were testing because Fass and Prep are contstantly knocking on doors trying to get new sells. The goverennt has the duty to test all products that could possibly help there cause. It was just a test to see if they could benifit from implementation. This particular test had nothing to do with the EPA. It was for implementation an reccomendation on government engines and subcontractors engines in multiple industrys.

If you interpreted it the way I did then you gathered that it works only on engines that are suffering. It also will never bring your engine above "test cell" levels.

I think that's about all it CAN do. I have an IV drip as a model for this, not the whole thing, just the little drip chamber that lets the air go up and the fluid go down. I think you'd need a pretty bad air leak to get enough air in a fuel line for this gadget to do anything useful, anything that the OEM filter won't do. If things get that bad you'll lose prime anyway. Wouldn't the symptom of air in the line be a primer that needs 50/100 pumps just to get started every day ?

For the money - just fix the air leaks http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Bronco

02-19-2004, 04:31 PM

Hello,

Just came home from vacation and the FASS was on the door step! All componets of the kit were included. Directions look straight forward.

I am currently in the process of securing a dyno. to perform before and after HP/TQ test. I will also be conducting before and after fuel cleanliness samples. Finally, I will be installing a fuel gauge fixed to the windsheild wiper so I can monitor fuel pressure under all conditions. Hope it dosn't rain.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

As far as the air in fuel is concerned, there are several companys who manufacture ultrasonic equiptment that can test for air bubbles and entrained air. These devices are not cheap. I am trying to work out the details in regards to price and system compatibillaty. Testing for entrained air removal will be the toughest to verify!

If anyone is in an industry with fluid movement such as concrete,food, paper or others, there is a chance you are already using this type of testing equiptment. If you have a spare ultasonic tester laying around feel free to ship it to me.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

This will take a couple of weeks to totally complete, please be patient. I will update bits and pieces as they come in.Edited by: Bronco

Mackin

02-19-2004, 04:45 PM

habanero

02-19-2004, 05:33 PM

I have an ultrasonic bath sitting here on the bench we use to clean filter frits, but I am not sure if it would work to test fuel for entrained air. Besides, I am nearly absolutely sure the group PI would ask about it if it were missing.

Bronco

02-19-2004, 06:11 PM

Habanero,

We do not want any one to get fired. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif The tool I am refering to is a device that clamps around your supply line and fires ultasonic pulses through the fluid and measures on the other side. If calibrated correctly this tool can detect entrained air. Maybe the manufactures of the FASS have a method for testing the effectiveness of there product? I could use this machine, method or procedure at my home to verify there results?

Bronco

02-27-2004, 07:11 PM

Hello,

The FASS has been at my home since Thursday February 19th. I have inspected the product thouroughly. I have also spent much time reading the install instructions and sourcing all required tools and parts for a complete, proper installation. In an attempt to give a complete unbiased report to all of you, I have put the finall install of the FASS on hold. Monday March 1rst. Charles Ekstam, inventor of the Preporator will be shipping me a Preporator unit. These units both make the claim of air removal and the delievery of pure fuel. I will be doing a head to head comparison. I will change the name of this thread to FASS COMPARED TO PREPORATOR.

Thank you for your patients.

a bear

02-28-2004, 11:57 PM

I can't believe there are so many biting on this. I think the concentious is that fuel under pressure does not remove vapors but only keeps it in solution and that is exactly what this unit is doing. The more vac/heat you add the more vapors will result up untill you have completely eliminated the fuel all together. Kinda like drying up your AC unit with a vac pump or boiling water away at 212 degrees. There is no way to rid your engine fuel of all vapor since the quantity of vapor released is directly related to press/temp and the fuel is the soarce of the vapors itself. Lower the press and raise the temp and you will flash the fuel away accordingly. The exact same benefits stated for the FASS or PREPORATOR can be accomplished with a simple lift pump which will add a little pressure thereby keeping the vapors in solution, not to mention the ability to run a finer filter. And yes it will be more responsive/quieter just like the FASS or Preporator because it will be accomplishing the same result. (Using pos. press to keep the fuel from releasing light end vapors.) Take the pressure away and then lets see how these filters defy the laws of physics.Edited by: a bear

jbplock

02-29-2004, 06:51 AM

What Tommy said....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

ArrBee

02-29-2004, 10:04 AM

a bear,
Right. As I said earlier, unless this gadget is putting fuel under considerable vacuum for an extended amount of time it isn't going to get dissolved air out of fuel. As you say, if it DOES apply vaccum it is going to evaporate the volatile components.
Fysiks 001; solubility of gasses in liquids, basic gas laws, partial pressure, vapor pressure, all that schtuff.
It might be old, but it hasn't be revoked http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Bronco

02-29-2004, 11:23 AM

The big thing that has been on my mind lately is the following. Cat. has published the fact there can be up to 10% entrained air in fuel. With that info. believed to be fact, then I wonder if the factory GM system has been purposely designed to help alleviate this problem? The EDU is commonly refered to as a device that is cooled by the incoming fuel. This also means the fuel leaving is hot. Hot fuel is at the perfect state to "offgas" I am not familar with the flow path after this point. I would assume to the pump and then on to either the common rail or to the regulator. The regulator then decides how much fuel gets to be bled off to the tank. I assume this is the way it works?? If the regulator is at the highest point in the system and is handling hot aggitated fuel then it has some chance of returning air to the tank. Has anyone inspected the return fuel in the stock return line for entrained air or air slugs?? Edited by: Bronco

Horse Trainer

02-29-2004, 02:07 PM

When I took fuel samples from the return, it was not a steady flow, but could be best described as coming in bursts (slugs). After I re-work my system in April, I'll retest the fuel and look.

The fuel path is FICM to filter to inj pump - might account for the air people find in the filter.

Bronco

02-29-2004, 02:33 PM

Horse Trainer,

That is some valuable information. I always figured the fuel went through the filter first and then through the EDU on the valve cover and then up to the pump. a guy would really have to tear into the entire system to decide whether or not it was designed by Bosch/GM to remove some air.

The return line is one method to judge whether or not the factory system is seperating air. Sometimes it is hard to see entrained air. If you run a clear tube past a black backround with a very bright incandecent light bulb you can see air bubbles. I have done this on a test stand. For clarification purposes, there are 2 different kinds of air we are discussing. Entrained air(tiny air bubbles) compared to air slugs(large pockets or bubbles of air). No different than water in the fuel. Dispersed,emulsified, entrained water compared to demulsified, seperated, water slugs.

Edited by: Bronco

Bronco

03-05-2004, 03:43 PM

Hello,

Two weeks ago, I asked Nick if I could present the FASS and the PREPORATOR on his PLACE. He said okay, but he warned me to stick to the facts and keep the opions to minimum. Well that was two weeks ago and I am just coming up with a method of presenting facts vs. opion. TRUTHFULL PRODUCT REVIEWS ARE NO EASY TASK!

Here is what I can tell you so far. Charles Ekstam is the owner, manufacture of the PREPORATOR. Brad Ekstam is the manufacture of the FASS. Charles is Brad's father. They both live in MO.

Both units contain a water separator, fuel filter and high volume fuel pump.

The FASS contains a coolant or oil hookup for heat. The Preporator does not.

The PREPORATOR contains a pressure sending unit and indicator light. The FASS does not.

Both units use a FLEETGAURD water separator.

The FASS comes with a CIM-TEK Microglass fuel filter rated at 10MIC nominal.

The PREPORATOR comes with a FLEETGAURD STRATAPORE fuel filter 10mic. absolute. This fuel filter also has a water separator in addition to the intitial water separator.

Both units have additional valving and plumbing that is claimed to remove air from the fuel. They both return this fuel/air/vapor via an additional return line to the stock tank filler neck.

The FASS has the exact same valving as the PREPORATOR, up to a certain extent. The PREPORATOR contains additional valving and plumbing. It appears to be a more thorough method of removing air.

However I have not proved to myself that either of these units remove any air and if so, at what engine operating RPM and conditions. I will be conducting several bench test and vehicle test in an attempt to support the validity of the manufactures claims. This will come in the near future.

In the mean time I will upload some pictures for viewing .

I also suggest that you contact either Charles or Brad. They are both very nice gentleman with a vast aray of diesel knowledge. Be forwarned, these gentleman could sell ice to an eskimo!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifEdited by: Bronco

Mackin

03-05-2004, 03:50 PM

Installed yet ??

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Bronco

03-05-2004, 03:53 PM

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/71F_Prep1.jpgEdited by: Bronco

Bronco

03-05-2004, 03:55 PM

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/68B_Fass3.jpgEdited by: Bronco

Bronco

03-05-2004, 03:58 PM

Mac,

I have not installed yet. I figured I better do all of the Bench test and photos first. Install is not a quick task either. I hope to have this accomplished by the end of the weekend!

Bronco

03-05-2004, 04:03 PM

PREPORATOR PIECES.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/DE4_Prep3.jpg

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/A2A_Prep4.jpgEdited by: Bronco

Bronco

03-05-2004, 04:04 PM

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/AD3_Fass4.jpg

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/7AD_Fass5.jpgEdited by: Bronco

Bronco

03-06-2004, 04:09 AM

A couple of other important facts are as follows.

The FASS mounts with one center hung bracket into the front leaf spring mount.

The PREPORATOR mounts with 2 shelve style brackets to the frame rail.

Both units require cutting the filler neck and installing a metal sleeve with a spout for attaching the return line.

Both units require removing part of the factory fuel line so a direct connection can be made to the top of the fuel tank.

F-Preporator

03-06-2004, 03:28 PM

Fuel Preporator is protected under patents issued in 1994, 1998 and a new patent allowed, fee paid and will issue as the U.S. PTO assigns the new patent number. PCT filings are in 117 countries. The Fuel Preporator has gone through 13 years of research & development, and evolution. It is approved for sale and use in California by CARB, it is an ISO-9001 Quality Manufactured product.

The Preporator has been tested by:

The Milwaukee School of Engineering Fluid Power Institute(1994) for water removal in accordance with SAE J1488 Standard Emulsified Water/Fuel Separation Test Procedure and found: "Average Water Removal Efficiency: 100%".

University of Illinois College of Engineering(1994) which concluded: "The Fuel Preporator does not allow vaporized diesel fuel to be created, nor does the Fuel Preporator allow entrained air to pass to the injection system" and "mass (fuel) flow rate remained constant. The Fuel Preporator provides a single phase flow (fuel with no air) to the fuel pump."

University of W.VA. Engine and Emission Lab, July 2002, tests results documented that torque off idle was doubled on test engine, peak torque was increased approximately 6% and remained virtually constant at the higher rpm's and stated in the report that the Preporator was "Very effective in removing air from the fuel supply system".

$1,750,000.00 appropriation in the U.S. 2004 Federal Budget, line 16, for Fuel Preporator military testing.

January, 2004, passed Japan's Ministry of Transportation 15 Mode Transient Emission Test.

NOTE: There are many more tests completed with health departments, mining companies and many trucking companies. All with positive results on engine performance, efficiency and fuel economy.

Preporator is available in models for small diesels/pickups (Model FP-80 and FP-80HP*) to the larger 20 cylinder 4,000 plus hp EMD engines (Model FP-450/650). Fuel Preporator Model FP-450 is currently in use on tug boats on the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers, in the Gulf of Mexico and many other locations around the world.

NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!!

*The NEW Model FP-80/hp is designed very compact, especially for the pickup market. Size is only 7" L X 3.2" W X 10" T (including filters). System includes a complete relay controlled wiring harness w/pressure switch and dash mount indicator light to monitor low fuel pressure, complete mounting system and fuel line installation kit. Also included is a 6 micron absolute Fuel Preporator/StrataPore TM fuel filter and a water separator.

This NEW PREPORATOR is available very soon. For information/pricing or placing your order early, call toll free: Ekstam WorldWide, Inc, Home of the Fuel Preporator @ 1-877-463-4373.

Fuel Preporator is a Performance product for diesel engines that addresses the issues of filtration and fuel delivery (entrained air and positive pressure flow) that have eluded the industry for over 100 years. For the full story, give us a call!

Thanks,

Charles L. Ekstam

ArrBee

03-06-2004, 03:49 PM

When I see things like this, "Average Water Removal Efficiency: 100%" I am reminded of the joke where a college student goes through the grocery store express line for people with 12 items or fewer with about 20 items in the cart. The clerk asks if the student is from Harvard or MIT. The student replies with a grunt, "Huh ?" The clerk says, "I'm just trying to figure out if you're innumerate or illiterate".

An AVERAGE of 100% ? Does this mean that some removal was less than 100% and that some was more ? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif
Is that a weighted average, a mean or a norm ?
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

F-Preporator

03-06-2004, 04:48 PM

Oldman

03-06-2004, 05:09 PM

Thanks for that last sentence Charlie. I have absolutely no idea what you said before it. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif We really need two threads on this. One for those who have a clue and one for those of us who don't!

F-Preporator

03-06-2004, 06:50 PM

I must appologize, I was not trying to confuse anyone. The quest to discover the source of the performance issues of the diesel engine that have remained with the "beast" through more than 100 years of development have taken me through courses of study and research that I would never have imagined. To discover why the diesel suffers lost torque at higher rpm, wet idle, smelly exhaust, identical engines not running at the same and/or degraded performance, fuel economy and exhaust emissions from designed or test cell level to the real world operating level and why all of the above becomes worse as the fuel filter plugs with use was a challenge. Although many know that diesel fuel, as all fluids, contain entrained air or air in suppension, such as the tiny bubbles you see in a well lighted fish aquarium, no one to my knowledge related this to retarded injection timing. Also no one, to my knowledge, related pump cavitation and the vapor produced to result in retarded injection timing at the higher operating rpm's and connect this to the torque loss that the average high speed diesel experiences at about 1,200 to 1,500 rpm, as is common.

Ekstam WorldWide is in the process of building a very indepth web page to explain all of these issues, etc. and how the Fuel Preporator addresses them.

Good reading is Cummin's Service Topic 5-135 which explains why the primary fuel filter is most always only partially full of fuel when removed. Additionally, Caterpillar's Special Instruction 651-1250, discussing air in suppension as being "normally 10%", will explain even more. We have copies of these which we could send if you are interested.

Thanks for your interest,

Oldman

03-06-2004, 07:17 PM

No apology needed. We have engineers on here who can rush right through that stuff. Some of us aren't quite that well educated though. Seems your last sentence in the prior post did a good job of summing things up for us. If you have copies of the reports you can email I would like to read them. If not, I'll wait for your web page. Please be sure to let us know when you have it up and running. Now that I own one of these beasts I need to all I can.

A question for you and I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand all this. There have been a couple of posts saying a lift pump will do basically the same thing as your Preporator or the FASS. Can you give us a simple comparison between the Preporator and a lift pump?

TIA,

Idle_Chatter

03-06-2004, 07:18 PM

F-preporator, I find your product very interesting, but with one important question for my installation that may relate to other potential customers. I have an aux fuel tank. It is routed through a 6-way valve that aligns the tank suction and the engine fuel return to the in-service tank. Is it possible to angle-tee the preporator return to the engine return line vs. a tank fill connection? I would not want my preporator returning to an idle (possibly full in reserve) tank while I'm drawing fuel from the other tank for 400 miles.

F-Preporator

03-06-2004, 08:14 PM

JC

First, a few facts. According to tests performed by the U of Illinois in conjunction with the Fuel Preporator, entrained air reaches a saturation point in diesel fuel after an average of 1 1/2 hours of sloshing. It is equal to cavitation produced vapors equal to a pump operating under a vacuum of 11-12 inches mercury. The vacuum feed fuel pump/supply system of the diesel engine is almost a perfect laboratory example of how to induce air and vapor into a closed loop system. Air and vapor carried in to the fuel injection system of the pre-common rail engine, being compressible, results in retarded injection timing. This in turn results in unburned hydro-carbons. In the atmosphere these hc's react to the humidity and are the precusors to ozone3. In the combustion chamber the unburned hc's form carbon deposits that increase the compression ratio which in turn increases the temperature which, again, in turn causes the nitrogen in the air to react to the high temperature and form nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide, the Nox gasses.

Entrained air bubbles or vapors produced by cavitation may be compressed by the pressure exerted by a lift pump to a point that they are invisible to the naked eye, but they are still there. See Cat's 651-1250. In the injector where pressures may reach 23,000 to 28,000 lbs these bubbles will collapse even more causing an injection lag. Therefore, the air/vapor must be removed from the fuel and fuel system. To do this, the Preporator has features that expand and coalesce the vapor, physically separate it from the fuel and return it to the fuel tank through a return line. The Fuel Preporator additionally maintains a positive pressure/flow of fuel to meet and exceed the needs of the engine, preventing cavitation. The excess fuel is returned through the same return line. A regulator controls the pressure flow and a pressure switch and indicator light signal low fuel pressure and filter changes before cavitation develops.

I hope this will explain the destinct differences between the Preporator and an ordinary fuel pump.

The Preporator System is designed to flow much more fuel that the engine requires. This makes it perfect for the marine industry which can and does use it additionally as a fuel polisher. However, this requires that the return flow must be returned to the tank the system draws from. I hope that will answer the other question.

Bronco

03-06-2004, 08:18 PM

In theory I understand exactly how these units work. After looking at the valving on each unit FASS and Preporator it is important to not catergorize each of these units as the same product. They are constucted differently and have different valving. The biggest difference I have noticed so far is they both remove this air(FUEL VAPOR AIR) mixture via a port with a check ball and return line. This check ball doubles as a pressure regulator. If for some reason the flow demand on either of these units were great enough to completly seat the check ball, the FASS would be at a greater disadvantage. If the check ball seats completely the air mixture will go straight to the engine.

The Preporator on the other hand has a very small port drilled to allow fuel/air to return to the tank even if the regulator/check ball is completely seated. (regulator bypass)

The Preporator also has a additional hole drilled in the filter mounting plate. ( see above picture) as compared to the FASS. This extra hole along with a filter divider (see picture above) allows air to escape that accumalates on top of the filter or on the dirty side.( In theory)

I mention these points to let you know there are differences in the valving in these products. Actually the valving of the FASS is exactly the same as the Preporator with the exception of the above 2 ports and filter divider included with Preporator.The machining practices and sealing pratices used on the 2 units is also different.Edited by: Bronco

Idle_Chatter

03-06-2004, 08:25 PM

The Preporator System is designed to flow much more fuel that the engine requires. This makes it perfect for the marine industry which can and does use it additionally as a fuel polisher. However, this requires that the return flow must be returned to the tank the system draws from. I hope that will answer the other question.

Partially, but can the Preporator fuel return operate cooperatively with the pressure in the engine fuel return (backpressure on the Preporator return)? This is most desirable, with the preporator connected with a wye into the fuel return upstream of the 6-way valve, or would it require the additional expense and plumbing of separate lines to 2 tanks and a 2-way connection to swap tanks (much less desirable - especially since I change "on the fly" on long trips and do not want to incur additional wiring and plumbing expense and complexity or have to manually swap valves.)

Oldman

03-06-2004, 08:32 PM

Thanks Charlie. I guess I need to start saving my pennies!

Bronco

03-06-2004, 09:06 PM

There are some important points to consider and remember. Maybe you Duramax owners can help me.

1.In order to remove air there has to be air in the first place.

2. Not all makes of fuel systems suffer the same and respond the same to these units.

3. What happens at idle is not the same as what happens at high RPM.

I need to verify these claims if only for my own well being. I will try my hardest to install tommorrow. This will tell me if there are any noticable performance increases.

Do any of you Dmax owners have any suggestions as to a method or testing procedure to verify air removal? Other than referencing past studies and publications.

I want rock solid facts that apply directly to the Dmax and GM light duty pick-up.

Mackin

03-06-2004, 09:18 PM

If anyone has handled one of these units it's a "beast" ... Well constructed and rugged pictures do it no justice ...

My two concerns seems one has been or is being addressed with fit as Charles is stating a smaller setup for the pick up is forth coming ...

If you could only get final filtering to 3 UM max I'm there in the near future ...

Mac

ArrBee

03-07-2004, 09:09 AM

ArrBee,

Multipass Efficiency Evaluation

Temperature, flow, pressure, and test time were recorded at each interval. Time weighted undissolved effluent water level in ppm by volume and average dispersed water separation efficiency were calculated according to SAE 1488 sections 7.4 and 7.5.

The initial water concentration level for each test was subtracted from the original concentration counts of the influent and effluent average. This yielded a negative time weighted effluent average. This result would indicate that the filter unit was removing all the water that was injected and some of the water that was initially present in the fuel at the start of the test.

In simple terms (fer the boys on the fahm) your claim is that the unit removed all of the injected water and some of the water that was already present prior to injection of the measured test quantity. If you claim this to be 100% (or greater) efficiency I dispute the math (though not the arithmetic). If, for example, the amount of water already present was twice what was injected it would be legit to claim an efficiency "something greater than 33%".
In even simpler terms, I am more interested in what the unit leaves IN, not what it takes out. I think this can be expressed in ppm, which can be compared to levels known to be harmful to pumps, injectors, etc.

F-Preporator

03-07-2004, 01:45 PM

ArrBee,

This water removal test was performed by the Milwaukee School of Engineering Fluid Power Institute with the"Old Style" original Fuel Preporator. It was also a comparison test with a major brand fuel filter.

The test specifications:

Flow Rate: 1.33 GPM Temperature: 80F +/- 5F Test Fluid: Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel Contaminant: Distilled Water Injection Flow Rate: 12.615 ml/min. Target Water Concentration Level: 2500 ppm Test Circuit Volume: 40.087 Liters

Let me point out that the reference to the tests that the Fuel Preporator has been subjected to was not to start a major scientific debate, but rather to show that the Fuel Preporator has been challenged in many tests and is not just a 'back yard' product with a a brief past and a short future. The Preporator represents a major advancement in diesel technology improving the performance, the efficiency and reducing exhaust emissions of the 'in use' diesel engine. The science of the Preporator is right.

The diesel engine can now operate continuously in daily use at the designed or test cell level when equipped with the Fuel Preporator

In a perfect world of the 'design computer' there are no contaminants in fuel, no entrained air or air in 'solution', fuel pumps do not cavitate and fuel does not degrade. Even the 170 known forms of microbiological spores and hydrocarbon utilizing bacteria suddenly disappear. Even water no longer condenses in fuel tanks.

However in our world, the real world of the diesel engine, all of the above exists to some degree. The 'vacuum feed' system (a pump running under a vacuum to create fuel flow and an inline filter scavenging off particulates and/or water contaminants, further restricting the already inadequate fuel flow) increases pump cavitation and vapor. The return fuel spewing from a high pressure valve into a return line continuously aerates the fuel. To achieve peak performance and efficiency from the diesel engine, these filtration and fuel delivery issues must be considered and addressed at the engine level. Fuel Preporator does this!

Think about it; we commonly consider the efficiency of a diesel fuel supply/filtration system by referring to the vacuum created by the system. In reality, a pump is a positive displacement mechanism. The pressure/flow needed to fill it at any given operating speed can be calculated. We have accepted the pressure drop through the supply system from ambient atmospheric pressure, vacuum,

Bronco

03-08-2004, 03:18 PM

Hello,

Well here it is, the good the bad and the ugly!. I wish I could tell you about how good these units made ny truck run, but I can't. The problem is not that the units do not perform as advertized, the problem is I CAN NOT SEEM TO INSTALL ONE OF THESE UNITS ON MY TRUCK!

The FASS is 15.5LBS dry. It is 14.5" tall. It does come with a bracket that would allow it to be mounted to the front leaf spring holder by 2 bolts. Not safe if you ask me. To much weight hanging in the air. Also my leaf spring bracket is so close to the cab that I can not fit a normal electrical drill in there. A 90 degree air drill would be required. The other major obstacle was the wiring. The unit came with a harness that had a 15 amp inline fuse and no connectors or specifics on where to hook up the unit. After spending 2 days and 50 dollars I sourced a relay and the appropriate connecters. I also purchased a fuse tap for a keyed ignition source. This required a signifigant amount of my time and research to learn the GM electrical system. After all of this, and the fact that the FASS has less valving than the Preporator, this unit will never be on my truck.

Now in regards to the Preporator, it is similar weight and is actually 2 inches longer than the FASS. The brackets that came with the Preporator are completly irrelavent and can not be used for the GM pick up. Additional fabrication would be required. The unit is also so long that there is no place to mount with out atleast 2 inches hanging below the frame rail. This unit is well constructed and does have the most modern air removal valving, however due to it's size I do not believe it will ever end up on my truck. I wil continue to try to find a home for the 135A Preporator because I am anxious to measure the performence gains.

Charles Exstam knew the 135A he shipped me was not the right product for my truck. He shipped it anyways because I requested it. He did forwarn me that there is a new product, the 80A that is much smaller and much lighter. It also includes all of the neccasary valving for air removel at all RPM's . Charles has offered to switch my 135A out for the new smaller 80A just as soon as it becomes available. He is accepting preorders now. When I receive the new smaller product, I wil be glad to install and perform any and all test requried to prove or disprove the claimed benifits of this product.

Some final thoughts. Air removal is no easy task. It is extremely scientific. You must be aware of air flotation rates and fuel flow rates. You also must be aware of filter media and filter pressure drop. All of these factors go into succsesfull air removal. A simple lift pump is no substitute for a Preporator. To say there is no air in fuel or no method of removing it is just not true. If you recall what we have learned here on the PLACE you will see that there are currently aftermarket filters that are separating air. That is where the slugs and priming issues are coming from. The tighter the filter media the more likely you are to have problems. That is why the factory RACOR is so loose. It is designed to offer the minimal amount of resistance to the flow of fuel.

Every time you add a filter or lift pump or cause cavitation or ariation you are altering the entrained air characteristics in fuel.

These issues are real and are awaiting a real soulution. I certanily hope the new Preporator 80A is the answer! It wil be 2 months atleast, but I can wait!

ON EDIT: Changed height specs from 16" to 14.5 ". Do no forget to add in (unit to body) clearance for chasis/body flex.Edited by: Bronco

geno

03-08-2004, 07:51 PM

Bronco

You telling me that I am putting air into my fuel with all my filtration and lift pump.

Geno

Bronco

03-08-2004, 08:47 PM

Geno,

Filters do not put air in fuel. They only have the possibillaty of separating it. Pumps do not put air into fuel, they only have the possibillaty of cavitating/ariating and separating. There have been several people here at the PLACE who have added fuel system componets and mysteriously started finding air in the system. There could be leaks, I agree. It could also be we are just moving around air that was always there.

If what has been published by Cat. is true then there could be up to 10% entrained air in diesel fuel. 10% is the same as for evey 10 gallons of fuel passed there is one gallon of air. There is always some amount of air in diesel fuel. I have a hunch GM did eveything in there powere to minimize disturbing or adding to this air. Depending on your vehicle mods. you could actually be separating the pre existing air into larger bubbles or slugs.Edited by: Bronco

Dave Lewis

03-08-2004, 09:09 PM

a bear

03-08-2004, 09:27 PM

I think it will fade off into the sunset as with most gimmicks. The real kicker is the claim that it removes only air and no fuel vapor. Is this thing some form of a cryogenic / CAT cracking plant.

F-Preporator

03-09-2004, 10:59 AM

First, let's distinguish between vapor and entrained air.

Vapor or fuel vapor as we are discussing is the result of vaporization or boil off of high end distillates found in diesel fuel. Cavitation within the pump created by not having the pressure flow to fill the mechanism, creates the conditions that produce these vapors. Vapor can be produced any time a sudden low pressure situation occurs. Example: The pressure flash of fuel passing through a filter, The increase in vacuum at the inlet to a pump when the throttle is snapped or from the continuous high vacuum at the inlet to the pump. Also, when insufficient pressure in the system cannot fill the barrel of the injector when the injector is on the up stroke, cavitationally produced vapor bubbles will appear within the injector.

Detroit Diesel notes in Service Information Number: 24-60-94Rev. in discussing rail pressure above rated spec's, "In addition, enlarging the orifice diameter of the R80 fitting may help prevent fuel from circulating within the fuel pump, thereby reducing or eliminating fuel aeration."

As fuel filters become more plugged with use, cavitation becomes worse.

Entrained air is the tiny bubbles that become trapped in the fuel by surface tension. Diesel fuel becomes aerated by the mechanical action of sloshing of the fuel and return fuel spraying back to the tank. Additionally, air becomes entrained through the natural handling through the pumping and hauling process.

Both air and vapor are compressible. The presence of air/vapor within any hydraulic system will change the 'pressure time' of the hydraulic action. A 'guy' named Pascal formulated the fundamental law of hydraulics back in the 1600's that form the basis for modern hydraulics.

Since the creation of the diesel engine by Rudolph, the world has tried to develop an air/fuel (and vapor) separation system. This is representated by the patents filed through out the years: In 1918 Mr. Church tried it, patent No. 1,269,787; 1940 Mr. Antonsen who work with John Deere; 1945, Szlaga working with Stant Inc. the radiator cap people; 1981, Andrew Lewis who assigned his patent to Chicago Rawhide Mfg. (CR Seals); many more such as: Lucas Industries Public Limited Company of Birmingham, England, 1988; Mannesmann Kienzle GmbH. Villingen-Schwenningen, Fed. Rep. of Germany, 1987; Fuji Jukogyo K.K. Mitsuyoshi Harada of Japan, 1983. list goes on and on. So, why are none of these devices on the market? I asked the same question. In analysis, none of the devices addressed the problem of the entrained air bubbles that do not float nor pump cavitation. To restore or maintain the pressure time of the hydraulic action, all air and vapor and the conditions within the mechanism that could produce vapor must be eliminated. That was the mission! The same mission that many individuals and large corporations from around the world have tried for over 100 years.

A balsa wood glider soars through the application of simple aeronautic principles. A 747 flys and carries heavy loads over great distances through the application of these principles and the addition of many others. The Fuel Preporator separates air/vapor (notice, air and vapor) from the fuel by applying some natural phenomena, principles of science and good old mechanical engineering! NOT JUST VALVING!All properly PATENTED! Fuel Preporator was the result!

Is the Fuel Preporator a "gimmick"? Hardly, it has been tested by numerous labratories and universities and used by individuals and fleets for the last 10 years. The issues it addresses are commonly known and have unfortunately been accepted as normal operating conditions until the Fuel Preporator.

Bronco

03-09-2004, 12:29 PM

"After all of this, and the fact that the FASS has less valving than the Preporator, this unit will never be on my truck."

Without testing how do you know more valving is better? Unless these two are tested in a similar manner then comparing them is meaningless. I agree the two should have come in a form that would allow them to be mounted to your specific truck. If other items are required then instructions should have been provided as to what was needed and how to hook it up. I guess it's another case of not ready for prime time.

Hello Dave,

It is hard to come up with concrete evidence when you are testing for air removal. There is not just some quick easy test. I really wish I could of tried both of these products on my truck. The people that have installed these units succesfully have put in much of there own time and resources. When I set out to review these products, I have to think about the majority vs. the minority. If you do not mind having a very large and heavy unit that you have to source out several tools and parts for, then these current units are the way to go. It is my understanding some dealers have already went the extra mile to assure a somewhat easy installation. Good job! I am personally looking for a complete kit that is sized proportionaly to my light duty pick up. The current units available are the same units used on 18 wheelers. That is why I am so exited about the smaller 80A.

Dave as fas as testing which current unit is better? You are right I have no personal concrete evidence to verify one over the other. I have however read hundreds of post and articles in regards to these 2 products. I have also seen dyno. test with Dodges using both products. I have also spent a combined total of 20 hours comunicating with both individuals who manufacture these products. I also have a good understanding of physics and am able to make deductions by just visualizing the fuel flow in these products. After researching the life history of both products and having both in my possesion, instead of saying the Preporator has extra valving, lets just say the FASS is missing some valving/plumbing/filter divider/dirty side and clean side air removal/carb certification/patents and finally modern construction techniques.

The FASS is at a lower price and if it is important to you to save $$$ then be my guest!

Charles and Brad, I started this thread in an attempt to get some feedback about a product I thought could be the solution to alot of problems we are having with our trucks. Brad you jumped into the fire. Charles you jumped into the fire. I hope my findings/opions and research do not cause either of you to take offence in any manner. I am just a simple guy trying to do what is best for my pick up and help out some other dmax owners. I have no intentions of printing any of this info. any where else. I also have no intentions of bad mouthing or promoting either product in a public format outside of the PLACE. I just want to get a good fuel filter on my truck that will not cause any side effeects at any RPM or situation. Every precious mile I drive, I am putting a little more dirty fuel through my fuel system!

F-Preporator

03-09-2004, 04:58 PM

Bronco,

I would like to thank you for taking your time and expending your efforts in the quest of truth and knowledge of a product and problem that is dear to the hearts of the diesel pickup truck enthusiasts. As the inventor of the Fuel Preporator I would tell you that when I started on this adventure 14 years ago, I, as others, was also doubtful and very skeptical, even as my proto-types began to produce exciting results. The science of the Preporator is now developed and available for diesel engines orf all sizes.

Ekstam WorldWide, originally Fuel Preporator International, Inc, is developing Preporator systems with complete installation kits for many applications. The pickup market is of importance to us.We will have the New Air Dog Fuel Preporator available for all diesel pickups very soon. Visit us at www.ekstamworldwide.com (http://www.ekstamworldwide.com) for more information.

Thanks,

Bronco

03-10-2004, 12:00 AM

To bad I do not have a spare 12 grand. I could set up a test stand and put this baby to bed!
Dear Jeff,

One of our sensors, the MCS-FTS flow-through sample cell in combination with the Rhosonics 8100 controller is suitable to measure entrained air in diesel fuel. Usually our systems are used to measure concentration of a specific component or strength of a solution. But the flow-through cell will also detect the presence of gas bubbles. Entrained air in the form of foam or bubbles can be measured all right, as we can make one output available that responds to the attenuation of the ultrasound. Air bubbles will block or attenuate the air.

I would need to know what levels of air you wish to detect. The system will not be able to detect occasional small bubbles less than <st1:metricconverter ProductID="2 mm" w:st="on">2 mm</st1:metricconverter> in diameter. Clusters of tiny air bubbles, larger individual bubbles or absence of diesel are easily detected.

Budget price of the 8100 with the MCS-FTS is 9500 Euro (12000 $US). Please let me know when you wish to receive a formal quotation.

Best regards,
Willem de Jong

Rhosonics Analytical BV
Stationsplein 62
NL-<st1:metricconverter ProductID="3743 KM" w:st="on">3743 KM</st1:metricconverter> BAARN
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Netherlands</st1:place></st1:country-region>
<SPAN lang=E

F-Preporator

03-10-2004, 09:22 AM

Bronco

Just thought I might throw something in! A 2mm bubble is hugh, the bubbles we see are typically 0.1-0.2mm or smaller. These bubbles cannot even be seen unless the optics are perfect and under intense light held at the just the right angle. A 0.5mm bubble is very bouyant, the smaller bubbles are not and will remain in suspension for some time.

Thanks

Bronco

03-10-2004, 09:26 AM

Missed the 2 MM part. Guess they are use to looking at bigger bubbles!

Master44Mag

03-10-2004, 06:59 PM

F-Preporator: When will the new Air Dog system be ready?

F-Preporator

03-10-2004, 07:09 PM

We are taking orders now and will start shipping in about 7 weeks maybe less.

chuntag95

03-11-2004, 10:29 AM

How much for the Air Dog?

Diesel Performance

03-11-2004, 12:41 PM

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Diesel Performance

03-11-2004, 01:03 PM

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Well, i've had the FASS on for a few days now, and like everything about it so far. Idle fp is 17psi, can't get it below 15 no matter what i do. Truck definitely idles smoother, which in all honesty i didn't expect. Can't say if the mileage is any better yet. I changed turbos, and upgraded the comp to drag comp at the same time, so needless to say i've been playing way too much with the new power.

Soon as i start driving "normal" again, i'll let everyone know how my mileage has been affected.

Later,
Chris</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE><BR style="PAGE-BREAK-BEFORE: always; mso-special-character: line-break" clear=all>

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Diesel Performance

03-11-2004, 01:08 PM

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Ok, guys, I don't care what the dinos say. Yesterday I pulled a 24 foot tandam duel trailer to the cow sale. I have pulled this trailer many many times to the same sale, up and down the same hills at the same speeds, at the same time of day and in the same truck.

But yesterday I bucked a 25 mile head wind both ways, wind change directions during the day.

This is the first time I have pulled this trailer w

Diesel Performance

03-11-2004, 01:15 PM

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<A name=post787646></A>Murle<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">
Registered: Oct 2000
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Posts: 141
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Bronco

03-11-2004, 02:18 PM

Hello Brad,

Quick question. On the FASS, where does the air go when the regulator check ball is completly seated?Edited by: Bronco

Oldman

03-12-2004, 04:42 PM

I'm still trying to get all of this straight so I just reread the entire thing. Seems like both units work at least as well as a lift pump, probably better. I can see where Charlies would be have an edge over Brad's (that's based on the info in the thread). I will be getting one of them soon.

I'm mechanically inclined, but much prefer a complete unit. On page 1, Brad said:

The kit for the Dmax comes with every piece of hardward for the installation. The only item you need to get are wire ties and the fuel line disconnect tool. Brad

Then, on page 4 , Bronco said:

...I CAN NOT SEEM TO INSTALL ONE OF THESE UNITS ON MY TRUCK! ... The other major obstacle was the wiring. The unit came with a harness that had a 15 amp inline fuse and no connectors or specifics on where to hook up the unit. After spending 2 days and 50 dollars I sourced a relay and the appropriate connecters. I also purchased a fuse tap for a keyed ignition source. This required a signifigant amount of my time and research to learn the GM electrical system.

Brad said hardware, he did not mention electrical connectors. However, a truck specific complete kit should, IMO, have the connectors and instructions. At the very least it should have the instructions and a list of exact parts you will need to purchase to complete the installation. That's something for both of you to think about. I have to assume many of the units you'll sell will be to DIY owners. A good percentage of those will be lost without complete directions/instructions.

Charlie, how about going out on a limb here and give us a ball-park price for the 80A.

Brad, is there a smaller unit on your drawing board?

Diesel Performance

03-12-2004, 05:56 PM

Please click on www.off-road.com/dodge/reviews/fass/jan_04/ (http://www.off-road.com/dodge/reviews/fass/jan_04/)

Bronco

03-12-2004, 06:47 PM

Hello,

Oldman you will also have some mounting issues to contend with. If you want electrical help, let me know. I can save you some time if you do not already know your way around.

Brad you did not answer my question about what happens on your FASS when the regulator check ball seats or comes close to seating.

This ball can seat when either the filter is dirty or the engne demand is great enough.

F-Preporator

03-12-2004, 09:06 PM

The FP-80 Model Fuel Preporator, the AIR DOG can be seen as a featured product on "TWO Guys Garage" National TV program on the Speed Channel on May 15, 2004, at 7:30 PM EST. The program will feature Sam and Dave explaining the problems of fuel delivery from the tank to the engine and will incorporate the Fuel Preporator demo stand. The same as we use at the truck shows. I think most of you will find it quite interesting.

The show will include the installation of the AIR DOG on a stock Powerstroke and will have 'before' and 'after' dynos. The program will also show the installation of a 'power chip box' and a 5" exhaust system.

The compactAIR DOG will be available in a complete kit form that will include: a high quality, relay controlled wiring harness w/pressure switch and indicator light to monitor for low pressure and signal changes, mounting brackets are included as are complete fuel lines and tank connections that are of adequate size to give the necessary flow rates. Complete instructions, with pictures, will be included. Also, plastic wire ties! The system will be available for GMC (DuraMax) diesel pickups, Dodges 5.9 Cummins, the kit will also be available for Ford Powerstroke. The AIR DOG, can be ordered as the FP-80 for small diesels with lower pressure and flow rate requirements or it come as the AIR DOG HP with flow rates and pressure out puts that are about that of the FP-135A, or 150 gph. Flow rate can vary due to different atmospheric pressures due to altitude. Fly Low!

Ah yes, the price. The MSRP is looking at $679.00. The AIR DOG is manufactured under strict ISO-9001 Quality Control and is approved for sale and use in California by CARB. NOTE: The use of a non approved product of this type in California could result in a $25,000.00 fine, I am told.

If you are interested, I would suggest that you place your order and get in line early. This product can be seen online at www.ekstamworldwide.com (http://www.ekstamworldwide.com). Click on the light truck page!

JC, I hope this answers your questions. PS, this is a secret, please keep it quiet!

Charlie

Oldman

03-14-2004, 01:04 PM

Bronco, thanks for the assistance offer, I may take you up on that.

Charlie, not to worry, your secret is safe with me!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Bronco

03-14-2004, 04:42 PM

Hello old man,

Just let me know.

What I find most interesting about the FUEL PUMP BETTER REGULATOR THREAD taking place as we speak is the fact that sevaral people have verified air in the system. Several methods have been used to prove this. The MEGA filter, clear sight tubes, bursting, and other items. This proves there is air in the system. It can only go 2 places. To the fuel tank via the return line or to the combustion chamber via the injector.

So if there is air in the system 2 additional questions come to my mind.

1. Is this air really a problem?

2. If it is a problem then how do we remove it?

Preporator and Fass both claim to address this issue. I had both units in my office and stripped them. From a theoretical point of view both units will remove air. They accomplish this by providing outlet points at areas in and around the fuel filter that are knowin to gather air. (MEGA NIPPLE I.E.)

I originally purchased the FASS and had no intentions of purchasing the Preporator. After inspecting the FASS I realized it worked by allowing any floating air to exit via a port that flows directly to the fuel tank. The clean fuel is picked up off of the bottom of the fuel filter via avery long nipple extension. The fuel is picked up off of the bottom of the filter. The air is ported out at the top of the filter via a port that is regulted by a spring and a check ball. This regulator is a PROBLEM in my mind. If the regulator check ball were to seat completely then the air gathering at the top of the filter will have no where to go but to the outlet side of the fuel pump onwards to your engine. This is why The FASS is a good unit as long as the regulator check ball never seats. Under high loads or with adirty fuel filter this check ball will seat and send separated air directly to your engine. This is a flaw in the design of the FASS. Brad has not answered my question twice in regards to this issue.

The Preporator will fall victim to this same scenario witht he exception of an additional port drilled that allows a small amount of flow to pass the regulator check ball even after the ball is completely seated. This keeps you safe even when the filter is dirty or the engine is at a very high demand.

In addition to the air release port I described earlier the PREPORATOR has another port drilled directly above the fuel filter. Yes there is a whole that allows a small amount of unfilterd fuel to return directly to your fuel tank. You may ask why would some one want to send unfiltered air to the fuel tank. The answer is simple. The top of a fuel filter or commonly refered to as the dirty side can accumulate air. yes thats right. The resistance of a preselected filter media can cause air to gather prior to even entering the filter media. The Preporator has a port that will aloow this air to be released to the fuel tank.

The very first page of thsi thread I asked BRAD EKSTAM about this issue. Brad responded to me and said he developed his own method of air separation. After inspecting both units, the FASS and the Preporator I fund Brads answer to my question to be a flase response. The Preporator was designed forst by Brad Father. I am sure Brad helped some. I have a US patent in my hands that shows Preporator has a patent and is complete. The FASS on the other hand is exactly the same as the PREPORATOR in design however THE FASS is missin some crucial air separation techniques. These items were left out in my opinion to avoid patent infringement.

Brads product is missing crucial parts and is manufactured with inferior design standards as compared to the PREPORATOR wich by the way is ISO9000 certified. IT is also CARB certified. It also has a patent. For these reasons I have sent my FASS back to Brad. In my opinion the FASS pump and air separator could cause higher than normal amounts of air to flow directly to the enigine. this would only happen whent he regualtaor check ball comes near or completely seats. The FASS is not a

Oldman

03-14-2004, 06:18 PM

Thanks Bronco. I have been following both threads. I really appreciate the time you hav eput into this and the fact your posts are in language I can understand. This area is new to me so I am a bit leary about believing everything that is posted. Things I have come to believe are: There is air in the fuel, The Preporator and FASS both remove more than the stock systems, if the stock system removes any at all, A lift pump supplies a constant volume to the low pressure side of the stock pump which is a good thing. As both the FASS and Preporator act as lift pumps, from my non-technical view point at least, the two threads are very much related. I can see where too much pressure on the input side of the LP side of the stock pump could be a bad thing. Can you tell me what the desired psi or volume should be to the LP side of the stock pump and how the output of the Preporator compares to that? I'd like to know the same for the FASS as well Brad. Does the LP side of the stock pump have a relief valve and return line there by making a high input pressure/volume a non-factor?

Diesel Tech

03-14-2004, 06:21 PM

Bronco

I've looked at mounting the unit and the only good place that I've found is on the driverside just forward of the rear tire. This is the area Nick has chosen for his Nicktain filter assemble. Not wanting to steal his design but a bracket formed to hold the unit to the bed support rails will do the trick! Just make sure to have a plate between the units filters and the back tire. This location will get the filter high enough to stop most road damage and it let's all the line connections be made with very short line lengths. It also allows for easy replacement of the filters.

Bronco

03-14-2004, 08:33 PM

Oldman,

You really seem to be getting an understanding of how these things are designed to work. The only real info. I have in regards to the stock system needs and limits is the following. In a article HOOT provided me with they state the max. pressure the factory regulator can handle is 30PSI. After this point you will physically damge it.

As far as what to pressure to prefeed the factory lowside preesure pump with?? Think more in terms of flow rather than pressure.

Diesel Tech,

I will be working with a local welder/fabricator to get the required brackets to mount the unit. What is the best way you have found to mount the return line? In the filler neck or into the top of the tank??

Diesel Performance

03-17-2004, 11:52 AM

I would like to start this post by saying that I am not getting on a soap box trying to impress people with any of my knowledge. I am a simplistic person representing a great product.

I believe it is time for me to get in hear and clear up some major issues/assumptions errors. First off I will apologize to some of the individuals on this thread that I have been communicating with. I told them I wasn’t going to post anymore because of what it will stir up. Because of what Bronco is writing people are starting to take that as the gospel truth and it <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">AIN’T!![/I][/B] Charlie at Fuel Preporator International or Ekstam Worldwide Inc. or what ever it is going to be in the future is entitled to his opinion and I respect that. But remember that is his opinion!

The FASS System is a very complete system. Some items on the FASS System cannot be discussed at this time due to advice from my patent attorney.

Quote from Bronco: “Brad you jumped into the fire”. As I see it we are now both in it. Bronco first started out with good intentions but as time went on I noticed a drastic change and he became very one sided

Quote from Bronco: “Just came home from vacation and the FASS was on the door step! All componets of the kit were included. Directions look straight forward.” What happened to this? Another quote from Bronco: “I have also spent a combined total of 20 hours comunicating with both individuals who manufacture these products.” I can guarantee that he has not spent more than about 30 minutes at the most with me on the phone. <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Does anyone think that the 19.5 hours with the competitor would slant his opinion! [/I]

Quotes from Bronco: “I really wish I could of tried both of these products on my truck.” “I CAN NOT SEEM TO INSTALL ONE OF THESE UNITS ON MY TRUCK! ... The other major obstacle was the wiring.” The FASS Kit is very complete. All the hardwar

VaderDmax

03-17-2004, 01:02 PM

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Oldman

03-17-2004, 01:02 PM

Thanks to all who have posted in this thread. I have learned lots, I think. No offense intended toward anyone here, but it's hard for someone not in the know to filter the BS here and arrive at a decision. There may be no BS but I have no way to tell. Actually, I guess it really doesn't matter all that much. As I recall, both Charlie and Brad have said the other guy's system is good. They both think theirs is better but, it looks like either will do what we want. I'm the type person who wants to believe everyone but doesn't trust even his own mother!! FOR SALE: 1 slightly used 2001 2500HD DURAMAX. I'm going to buy a skateboard!!

On a serious note, someone brought up a good question, I believe it was on another thread, why bother putting aux filtering/pumps on the truck at all right now? Why not go with the stock configuration and hold off on any improvements until you get close to 100k miles. That way, GM replaces the injectors for you. Upgrade your fuel system so the injectors will last to 101k and you get to foot the bill. That really makes sense to me. Wait for the upgrades until AFTER GM has replaced the injectors, bound to happen, and make sure the new ones last forever. If the rumor is true about GM putting a life-time warranty on the injectors then why bother doing anything at all except maybe a lift pump for a more uniform feed to the stock pump(s)?

ArrBee

03-17-2004, 03:28 PM

Here's a little puzzle.
We have been assured (ASS_U_RED) that sloshing fuel around with air above it will cause more air to dissolve (or become entrained) in the fuel. I'm not quite sure which of the laws of physics this extends, but it seems to have gone unchallenged on this forum.
Today I had a Coke in about a 20 oz or 1/2 litre plastic bottle. Between swigs I was replacing the cap to keep it from going flat, but at one point I experimented with squeezing the bottle to expel some air before tightening the cap. When I released my grip I expected the bottle to spring back a bit, reducing the pressure over the liquid and perhaps "sucking" out the gas. I actually expected to see increased bubbling. Well, it looked pretty flat, so I finished eating and left with the "dented" bottle. You might want to try this instead of taking my word for it. After a LONG time at reduced pressure you can shake that coke bottle just a little bit and WHOOSH ! - There IS still CO2 left in it - and THEN some.

So, WHY does sloshing dissolve or entrain air in diesel fuel, but cause CO2 to escape from solution (suspension, or entrainment) in soda ?

Enquiring minds, etc.

Big P

03-17-2004, 07:45 PM

Ya, I hate flat soda!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big%20Smile.gifEdited by: Big P

Mackin

03-17-2004, 08:27 PM

Bronco so say you ?? Diesel Tech has made quite a few good points ...

Have you quit ??

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

Dave Lewis

03-17-2004, 09:06 PM

Brad,

Excellent post. I hope it gives people something to think about.

Edited by: Dave Lewis

Diesel Tech

03-17-2004, 09:37 PM

Diesel Tech,

I will be working with a local welder/fabricator to get the required brackets to mount the unit. What is the best way you have found to mount the return line? In the filler neck or into the top of the tank??

I'm not sure what your asking for here, the best or the easiest. If you put the return into the filler neck it easy and works. Putting it into the fuel sender unit requires tank removeal and drilling a passage way open in the sender. I would prefer to do it in the sender just because I feel it's a cleaner install but more work. I truely donot think it would matter which way you do it. Some have stated that in the filler neck causes the tank not to fill properly if you leave your truck running.

sdaver

03-17-2004, 11:12 PM

mine (FASS)has been installed in the nictane position for a month........not a hard install......duramaximiser was a bigger pain in the alvin I mean ass

my return is in the filler neck and yes the truck must be off to refuelEdited by: sdaver

GIT-R-DONE

03-17-2004, 11:32 PM

For more interesting reading on this topic :

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89707

It may take a while to read all of it but it is worth it. I have had the FASS on my truck for 5,000 + miles now with no problems.

F-Preporator

03-19-2004, 12:18 AM

Time for some truths! I hate dirty laundry, but....

Brad Ekstam did not help design or invent the Fuel Preporator. Brad did not get involved with the Fuel Preporator until late Summer or Fall of 1994 when he became a salesman of my product. Now, Federal Patent Infringement Court can sort things out.

The 'AIR DOG' FP-80 has been specifically designed to meet the diesel pick-up truck engines. We have spent significant resources developing the 'AIR DOG'; minimizing the size of the system without sacraficing power and performance. Ekstam Worldwide manufactures a full line of systems in addition to the FP-80, including the FP-135A, the FP-135 Industrial/Marine, (one of our clients, using CAT D-10L dozers, now exceed the moving capacity of their custom-made 24x10 blades) , the FP-450/650, as used on the 4,000hp 20 cylinder EMD Marine Engines.

ISO-9001, while not a guarantee of perfect quality, is a standard practice for manufacturers worldwide, and has been made a priority by virtually every major manufacturer and their customers worldwide for a reason. If the Big 3 demand this stamp of quality from their parts suppliers, shouldn't you?

Much like the ISO label, receiving CARB Executive Order certification did not guarantee the effectiveness or quality of the Fuel Preporator system. However, with CARB certification, we provide our customers with the piece of mind that they will not be fined up to $25,000.00 for using a non-registered device on their vehicle by the State of California. Furthermore, just for everyone's understanding, to receive a CARB Executive Order, a product must pass stringent testing to be legally sold and used in the State of California. The Fuel Preporator system has surpassed these (as well as countless other) testing standards.

Finally, the Fuel Preporator requires specially engineered filters for a reason. Without a high pressure safety bypass valve, will all of these off the shelf filters that fass lists withstand the high pressure that its pump can develop? Will a cellulose filter hold 20 or 35lbs of pressure? Or, will they come apart under the high pressure and pass into your injection system? In addition to a filter specifically designed to take these pressures, the Fuel Preporator system has a high pressure safety bypass and an indicator light to provide you with the utmost in reliability.

Thank you all for your patience, interest and respect. We look forward to exceeding your expectations.

Dmax Tim

03-19-2004, 11:14 AM

When I was in my apprenticeship 8 years ago we put hydraulic oil in a glass container and hooked up a vacuum pump (this container was made to test water and air in fluids).

Hydraulic oil has 10% or so entrained air/water.

When oil was under vacuum the water/air boiled out of the oil.

Take before and after fuel samples and run the same test.

If u have a known fluid volume and run the pump for X time on both samples and see what happens.

The college we went to has moved and I don't think the same teacher is there or I'd try a sample.

I would think any college physics lab could do the same test.

Deadeye

03-19-2004, 11:34 AM

. . . This product can be seen online at www.ekstamworldwide.com (http://www.ekstamworldwide.com). Click on the light truck page!

. . .. .

Charlie

Charlie;

All I see on you website is a logo . . . no dog of any kind . . http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif at least a diagram would be good.

ski1

03-19-2004, 09:09 PM

Bronco,

should this be moved to the war room ? seems you are getting personal for whatever reason. seems the "facts" about the products are best explained by their respective owners. i for one would be upset if someone misreported facts about a system I built. the parties here should not have to correct members opinions, but spend more time answering specific questions. your initial observations provided some insight into the product from an unbiased standpoint ???http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

F-Preporator

03-19-2004, 10:01 PM

Deadeye,

Sorry, I thought we had put the Air Dog on our web page but we haven't as yet. Give us a call and we can mail some good pictures. If you can make the Mid America Truck Show in Louisville, KY. next week, we will have the Air Dog on Display and on the Demo Stand.

Thanks,

Mike L.

03-19-2004, 10:27 PM

Charlie

After all of this dialog, which has been very informative, i want to use your product. The arguments have been good and sincere by both partys; i think you made the best case.

mike

Oldman

03-20-2004, 01:30 PM

I'm still not convinced of the need for one of these. Yes, from what Bronco told us, I can see where either would remove some air from the system. However, it seems a simple lift pump is handling the air well enough for our system. I'm having a hard time justifying the added expense.

JohnWalton

03-20-2004, 07:56 PM

the only thing that proove this is several before dyno runs from different days followed by several after dyno runs. a stock truck would be best.

i think a cheap pump would work just fine for most people. i know a dodge that ran one and he said the pump was fine, just didn't pickup any HP.Edited by: JohnWalton

Bronco

03-21-2004, 02:14 AM

Brad,

When the regulator check ball on your system closes, where does the air go?

Charlie,

When the regulator check ball on your system closes, where does the air go?

Brad,

How does your product remove air differently then the Preporator?

Charlie,

How does your product remove air differently then the FASS?

Brad and Charlie,

Why are your products better than a simple lift pump?

Brad and Charlie,

Do modern High Pressure Common Rail type fuel systems such as the Bosch system on the DMAX actually benifit from air removal?

Brad and Charlie,

Are there diesel fuel additives available that alter the air entraining qaulitys of diesel fuel causing diesel fuel to hold less air?Edited by: Bronco

Mackin

03-21-2004, 09:23 AM

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif

ArrBee

03-21-2004, 11:22 AM

Brad, Charlie, Bronco, whoever else.
Are there sharks ?

Brad, Charlie, Bronco, whoever else.
Do sharks attack people ?

Brad, Charlie, Bronco, whoever else.
Are there effective shark repellants ?

Brad, Charlie, Bronco, whoever else.
Should I use shark a repellant or wear a chain mail suit ?

Brad, Charlie, Bronco, whoever else.
Does any of this matter if I never go on a boat and don't swim in shark infested waters ?

tnx,

puzzled in Mass

PS Do you suppose Isuzu, GM and Bosch know anything about diesel engines, the solubility of gasses in liquids, etc ?

FISHHOG

03-21-2004, 12:22 PM

Suction-side fuel filters are located upstream from the pump. The fuel flows by vacuum through the filter as opposed to those located downstream from the pump where the fuel is forced, under pressure, through the filter.
Problems associated with suction/vacuum side fuel filters are usually not obvious. The most serious problem to consider is loss of vacuum. Vacuum loss caused by air leaks will result in loss of engine performance.
Air being sucked into the fuel system could result in lower fuel delivery. Power and performance will be affected by these conditions. Locating the air leaks in the fuel system is normally very difficult. The common conclusion is that there is a suction leak around the fuel filter.
One observation made in the field is the fact that during servicing of a suction-side fuel filter it is only partially full when removed.
Most suction-side fuel filters will be partially filled with fuel when removed from an engine. It may also seem that full utilization of the media is not being obtained. The air-vapor cavity or air entrapment is caused by the surface tension of the fuel. It can also be referred to as the passage resistance of wetted filter media to allow air or vapor to pass through. The magnitude of this resistance to vapor passage is related to paper pore size and fuel surface tension. By decreasing the pore size, one will increase resistance to vapor passage. An increase in surface tension will also result in an increase in resistance to vapor passage. Once the media pores are wetted with fuel, these pores will not allow the passage of air until the vacuum on the clean side is sufficiently greater than the vacuum on the dirty side of the filter. This vacuum differential increase will break the surface tension of the fluid bridging the pores.
The only time that the air will pass through the media is when a differential vacuum across the filter overcomes the surface tension. In actual engine installations of suction-side filters, when the primer or transfer pump is activated, a differential vacuum across the media is created. The differential vacuum is large enough to overcome the surface tension and allow the passage of air and/or fuel through the media. As the media is wetted, the air-vapor barrier is formed and so any new air vapor generated will be blocked from passing through the media.
With the fuel system completely sealed and assumed leak proof, then one may ask, how is the air generated and where does it come from? The source of air vapor is the diesel fuel itself. Similar to water, diesel fuel contains a certain amount of dissolved air, depending upon the fuel temperature, pressure on the fuel, specific gravity and the amount of aeration to which the fuel has been subjected.
Increasing the fuel temperature or a fuel pressure reduction will release the air. The amount of air released is dependent upon the degree of the air saturation of the fuel and the magnitude of temperature increase and pressure reduction.
In actual laboratory experiments duplicating a filter as installed on an engine, it has been proven that the filter will always be full on the clean side and air-vapor is present on the dirty side only. Therefore, there is always sufficient amounts of fuel leaving the filter. The reason that the filter appears partially full when removed from the engine is because as the seal between the filter and the mounting base is broken, the vacuum differential across the cartridge is also broken and the fuel level on the clean side and the dirty side of the cartridge are instantly equalized, thus resulting in a filter that appears to have had the same fuel level on both sides of the cartridge when under operation. </FON

Oldman

03-21-2004, 12:38 PM

...PS Do you suppose Isuzu, GM and Bosch know anything about diesel engines, the solubility of gasses in liquids, etc ?

I'm beginning to have my doubts!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

Bronco

03-21-2004, 12:51 PM

Fish Hog,

Nice post. You touched apon some key issues. You mentioned surface tension and viscosity. You mentioned fuel temperature.

My last question to Charles and Brad was in regards to the effects of diesel fuel additive. I am curios, if the right DFA will alter the charestics of diesel fuel as to minimize the air entraining capabillatys of diesel fuel.

There are several diesel fuel additives that "DEFOAM" fuel. How does this come into play?

My intention here was to never advocate or sale one or the other products. I am only trying to bring the superior product forward so that we may then verify the abbillaty of the superior product to effectively remove air under all circumastances. Assuming there is a superior product .

If Both Charles and Brad think they are effectively removing air and provinding a road worthy product then I say let the games begin.

CHARLES BRAD, What test have you performed on the GMC dmax equipped light duty pick up?

CHARLES BRAD, What are the effects of fuel temparature and atmospheric conditions in relation to the abbilaty to remove air?

CHARLES BRAD, What steps has Bosch taken to minimize the effects of entrained air in our fuel system?

CHARLES BRAD, What is the relationship between the use of a antifoaming diesel fuel additive and the effectivness of your product?

CHARLES BRAD, What conditions are your products less likely to be effective in/under?

CHARLES BRAD have you ever tested the return line of a GM BOSCH fuel system for entrained air?

Have you ever compared this to the the return line after your products have been installed?

Have you ever compared this to the entrained air quanitys inside of the high pressure common rail?

Have you ever compared this to the return line on a otherwise stock fuel system with the addition of a lift pump?

Edited by: Bronco

Kennedy

03-21-2004, 01:36 PM

Just put a little bit of psi on the fuel and you'll have full filters and no air accumulation...

Bronco

03-21-2004, 01:52 PM

Removed by Bronco due to the personal nature of the message.

I can tell you all this. As it stands both the Preporator and FASS will both present installation challenges. Both products have there pros, and cons. Due your research and make a personal choice.

My only concern now, is to bench test both the Preporator and the FASS for there abillaty to remove air.

If both units effectively remove air under various circumstances then it will be up to you the customer to sort out all of the other issues.

If one or both of these units does not remove air well then it will be up to you, the customer to deside if you are on the market for a simple lift pump.

These test will take a while. Please be patient.Edited by: Bronco

Bronco

03-21-2004, 02:14 PM

Just put a little bit of psi on the fuel and you'll have full filters and no air accumulation...

Kennedy,

Your above statement is completly true. I could not agree more. Have you started selling your lift pump yet? I know your are working on bringing a good lift pump kit to market.

JK you need to realize just what it is these folks are trying to sell here. They are actually claiming that they can remove the air out of the fuel. Where as a lift pump only keeps the pre-existing air in the fuel. A lift pump keeps the air in the fuel. These dohickys take the air out completly.

That is why it is so vitaly important to verify there claims of air removal.

If it is as simple as keeping the air under pressure, then you are correct. Run who evers secondary filter you want. Run who evers lift pump you want. Exact same results.

However, if these folks can actually REMOVE THE AIR then we are in a totally different league. It is an amazing concept, I am just not sure it is possible under all conditons and all rpms and at all altitudes. I am also not convinced that the GM system has not already taken some measures to help. Finally I am not sure if a high quality diesel fuel additive will not provide some of the same air removal benifits as these dohickys.

I have presented the questions, I will know step back and let the FASS and Preporator people answer these questions. I will let the DIESEL PLACE MEMBERS decide if honest relevent answers are required and neccasary.

IS IT IMPOTANT TO YOU TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS? IS IT IMPORTANT TO VERIFY THAT EITHER OF THESE PRODUCTS WORK AS CLAIMED? IS IMPORTANT TO YOU TO LEARN IF A 600$+ GADGET IS EVEN NESSACARY?

To some of you 600.00 dollars is a drop in the hat. To me it is a new 6-gun. To some of you 600.00 dollars is just another neat gizmo to talk about. To me 600.00 bucks could be the missing silver bullit. The item that saves me thousands on costly fuel system repairs.

I would really like to move past the who is better stage and move into the DO THESE THINGS REALLY WORK AS CLAIMED? CONSISTANTLY? UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES? stage.Edited by: Bronco

Kennedy

03-21-2004, 06:46 PM

I have a basic lift pump setup near completion. It runs at 6 psi with engine off, and 4 psi at idle. Psi readings are approximates. The concept here is to prime the system, and keep the fuel under pressure most of the time. It is not a Hi Perf pump, but won't create excessive resistance should it quit. Under heavy load, it will still cross over to vacuum. The pump system to maintain constant psi is still under testing and development, and may/may not be released.

The delay at this poing is the control harness. The requirements set forth are:

1) Timed "prime" run at key up.

2) Oil psi switch protection. No oil psi, no pump.

3) Relay control to carry the load.

4) Over current protection for load side of relay.

4) Manual override to activate pump for filter priming.

Experience has proven that the 6.5 oil psi switch was a PITA and caused lots of headaches. This switch if failed will cause the pump to RUN whenever the key is on. The load side is way overkill also, so it can be used to power most any pump short of about 20 amps I believe.

As for removal of "air" it would seem to me that to accomplish this these systems must be running the fuel near it's vapor pressure, (like the OE system with the EDU heat) so along with the air there will likely be hydrocarbons removed. The lighter stuff in fuel can be an important part of combustion, so they may be removing potentially valuable, burnable components of our fuel.

PS. changing from 12"+hg suction head to 0-1"hg suction head made zero difference in my testing so far. Will be boosting the supply some more soon to see if we gain...

Bronco

03-21-2004, 07:49 PM

Okay here is the deal. Fair is fair. I have reread this thread, ecspecially the alligations from Brad to me. I also clicked the link that Brad provided to the article in the offroad magazine. I read the article and looked at the pictures closely.

Lets be rational here. There are 3 options here.

1. Brand x secondary fuel filter and brand x lift pump. For example, your existing CAT, Racor,Baldwin with the addition of a lift pump. Holley, Summit, ACDELCO ect. ect.

This above combination has been proven to improve fuel cleanliness, smooth idle and improve other fuel system issues.

2. Preporator. Which claims all of the above benifits and also the added benifit of entrained air removal.

3. Fass. Which claims all of the above benifits and also the added benifit of entrained air removal.

All 3 options above present various installation challenges. It is becoming obvious to me that depending on your INDIVIDUAL SKILL LEVEL AND TOLERANCES you will have a perceived level of installation ease.

I would really like to move past the installation issues associtated with the two air separator units. I would also like to move past any PATENT,ISO and CARB issues. These items are obviously personal preferences. I would however like to FOCUS on these two units abillaty to remove entrained air.

After struggling with an accurate method of testing these systems I believe I have come up with a method to validate either products effectivness. First let me preface this by saying that this idea is completly mine and has not been approved or santioned by the manufacuteres of either products. As a matter of FACT neither manufacture has provided a easy straight forward method of testing there products. Much mumbo jumbo comes from both sides. On an independent level I located testing equip. but due to the price being entirely to high, I have come up with a home made recipie to test both systems head to head.

Please note that these test have no reflection on the long term reliabillaty of either product. They are by no means an indicator of either companys future or abilaty to back a warranty claim. They are no indicator of possible unforseen problems arising from the use of these products. These test are no indicator of kit completness or ease of installation, as I have stated earlier these items are a personal choice/perception. They are also not an indicator ot the benifits provided to our trucks.

As far as I can tell, the only item my test will tell you, is there abillaty to remove air from fuel. I am attempting to provide you with 3 sets of data. First, while using a clean fuel filter and secondly while using a dirty fuel fliter and finally under very high fuel demand situations.

Here is what I will do. First I will take a predetermined amount of fuel and completly ariate it. ( If I know how to ariate a fishtank, then I know how to ariate diesel fuel.) I will then record the weight and volume of this completly ariated fuel. I will then immediatly pass this ariated fuel through the air separating device. I will then remeasure the weight and volume.

I will then perform the same test however I will create a situation that causes the regulator check ball to come close to seating or actually fully seat. I will then perform the same measurments as above.

Due to the fact, that (favorable/positive) seat of the pants dyno and chasis dyno. results can be obtained by the use of a simple lift pump and secondary fuel filter system, I will not be commenting on either the seat of the pants dyno. or chasis dyno results. I will only comment on the above described measurments I obtain. Although these results will not be satisfactory to all participating parties, they will be good enough for me

Bronco

03-22-2004, 12:43 PM

BUMP, BUMP!

I have bumped this thread so that all interested parties can reread my most recent couple of post. I have done some substantial editing. I hope my writings will now provide a more unbiased view.

The air removal test will be the final verdict, well atleast in my book. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gifEdited by: Bronco

habanero

03-22-2004, 01:25 PM

I assume that 10% air is by volume not weight, correct? That seems high, but maybe how that number has been arrived at was explained in a portion of the thread I have not read. Anyway, you mention you want to weigh and measure the volume of your diesel before/after testing. Don't bother weighing your fuel. Just some back-of-the-envelope calculations show the weight of a gallon of diesel to be almost exactly 7 lbs and a gallon of air to be 0.0102 lbs (3179 and 4.64 grams respectively). There is virtually no way you are going to get any meaningful numbers on air removal by weighing since just a few drops (~6 ml) of diesel will account for the total weight of your air. Also, how do you plan to set up the fuel return after the test pump to eliminate reintroducing air into the diesel?

Bronco

03-22-2004, 01:38 PM

Habenero,

It has been written that for every 10 gallons of diesel fuel there is 1 gallon of air. By volume I assume.

If I take 10 volume gallons of ariated fuel it should weigh 7 lbs less than 10 volume gallons of "treated fuel" . At least that is how it sounds on paper. What do you think?Edited by: Bronco

a bear

03-22-2004, 02:18 PM

I really find it hard to believe that diesel fuel contains 10% air. This would be base simply on the fact that if you add 10 % weight to the fuel that it would be nearer to the specific gravity of fresh water instead of fuel. Also if this was the case those that were seeking fuel/water separation would have a hard time. Even with additives.

chuntag95

03-22-2004, 05:14 PM

Maybe that's why we rarely find water separated out? Maybe the separators work great in the lab and lousy in the field?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

chuntag95

03-22-2004, 05:19 PM

Brad, Charlie, Bronco, whoever else.
Are there sharks ? Yes

Brad, Charlie, Bronco, whoever else.
Do sharks attack people ? Yes

Brad, Charlie, Bronco, whoever else.
Are there effective shark repellants ? No

Brad, Charlie, Bronco, whoever else.
Should I use shark a repellant or wear a chain mail suit ? Chain mail

Brad, Charlie, Bronco, whoever else.
Does any of this matter if I never go on a boat and don't swim in shark infested waters ? No

tnx,

puzzled in Mass

PS Do you suppose Isuzu, GM and Bosch know anything about diesel engines, the solubility of gasses in liquids, etc ? Yes, but they don't always do the best they can.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Class dismissed. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

habanero

03-22-2004, 05:57 PM

Habenero,

It has been written that for every 10 gallons of diesel fuel there is*1 gallon of air. By volume I assume.

If I take*10 volume gallons of ariated fuel it should weigh 7 lbs less than 10 volume gallons of "treated fuel" . At least that is how it sounds on paper. What do you think?

If it truely is 10% air, that would be correct. I still have a little trouble believing the 10% number, though. Now I am going to have to siphon out some diesel from my truck, through it in a volumetric cylinder here at work and bubble it all day tomorrow to see if the volume increases that much. Wonder how I am going to explain the bubbling cylinder of diesel in the fume hood to my boss? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

chuntag95

03-22-2004, 09:56 PM

If it truely is 10% air, that would be correct. I still have a little trouble believing the 10% number, though. Now I am going to have to siphon out some diesel from my truck, through it in a volumetric cylinder here at work and bubble it all day tomorrow to see if the volume increases that much. Wonder how I am going to explain the bubbling cylinder of diesel in the fume hood to my boss? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Science fair project for the kid? Research for saving the planet? Very stiff drink due to a rough day? Testing to see if you are being ripped off at the pump and only getting 90% of the fuel you pay for? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Diesel Dragon

03-22-2004, 11:03 PM

If Habanero is correct and 1 gallon of air weighs 0.0102 even if you remove the gallon of air from the 10 gallons of fuel it will still weigh the same, more or less. And how are you going to get exactly the same 10 gallons out when you have to account for the fuel that will still be left in the devices filters, and punps and how can you guarantee that it is exact.

Seems more like a experiment for a labratory than a garage or basement.

Seems like the manufacturers should have recent INDEPENDENT Labratory testing done that the devices do what they say they will do. And then we can confirm these results.

Maybe father and son should test each others products and report the results. Then we will hear how bad the other one is.

My .02 Diesel Dragon

Bronco

03-23-2004, 03:27 PM

Diesel Dragon,

Yes it will be difficult to account for the amount of fuel in the filters. The biggest item of difficulty would be the loss out the return line.

Independent test can and will be done in my garage. You will see.

As far as the two companys testing each others products and presenting the results? Can you say "conflict of interest."

CHUNTAG95,

The fuel at the pump should be relatively free from air. The fuel supposedly will only contain the 10% entrained air after much sloshing in your tank. A fueling station experiment would be interesting however. Take a standard 5 gallon diesel fuel container and fill it. See what the pump tells you you put int. Let it settle and remeasure.

Any additional ideas on verifying these claims at an independant level would be appreciated.

Oldman

03-24-2004, 12:04 PM

Your way out of my league here. I have no idea how to accurately measure the air in the fuel. I wouldn't even know where to start. Anxiously awaiting your results!

F-Preporator

03-30-2004, 10:10 AM

HI,

Sorry I have been gone for a week getting ready for and doing the Mid America Truck Show in Louisville, KY. A great show!

In reviewing the posts briefly, I see that you are on the right track, both in understanding the issure of entrained air in fuel and also the development of fuel vapor through pressure drop across the filter element and at the low pressure or vacuum side of the pump. Caterpillar's Special Instruction 651-1250, March 1990, it appears has been read. FISHHOG posted info from both that bulletin and also the 1965 Cummins"s Service Topic explaining the low fuel level in the filter. As many company's and individuals the world over have discovered over the last 100 years of trying, removing these vapors from a liquid is difficult in the least and impossible to most. The Fuel Preporator in its original disign removed the air vapor from the fuel and eliminated the development of additional vapor through vaporization or the 'cavitation' process. The new design of the Fuel Preporator that is the subject of new patents, about to issue in the United States and filed through PCT filings in 117 countries, make the Preporator scaleable to size for the application. The arguement as to the "does it work or not?" question is being answered daily by those using it and by the 'big guys' in the industrial world by the orders being placed.

The debate here is healthy, I only wish that you all had the opportunity to visit our facility to see the demo stands themselves up close and understand the process and the device (Fuel Preporator) that makes this possible. The next best thing would be to watch it all on the May 15, 2004, Two Guys Garage program (7:30 EST).

This post and this thread is not about a son and a father in a family conflict, it is about the inventor of a technology explaining to those interested of the importance and value of that technology to their application and daily use.

Defending my ownership of my intellectual property against infringment is proceeding in a federal infringement action, family issues, I am sorry to say, ended long ago.

Oldman

03-30-2004, 11:56 AM

Charlie, what network/channel is that going to be on? I don't recall ever seeing that show up here but would sure like to watch!!

F-Preporator

04-01-2004, 09:32 AM

JC,

The Two Guys Garage Show is on the Speed Channel. It is scheduled to air on May 15, 2004 @ 7:30 EST.

Thanks,

Oldman

04-01-2004, 01:03 PM

I do get the Speed channel. I know where I will be at 3:30 on May 15th!! Thanks.

F-Preporator

04-08-2004, 09:32 PM

Diesel Dragon,

Tests were done in 1994 at the University of Illinois, College of Engineering that included aeration of diesel fuel on a time/agitation method that concluded that the level of entrained air reached saturation in approximately 1 1/2 hours of sloshing in a average sized fuel tank (semi truck) during normal on road operation. A test for volumes of vapor produced at different levels of vacuum was also conducted. The results were interesting to say the least. The level of entrained air in diesel fuel at saturation was equal to the vapors produced by cavitation from a pump pulling a 12 to 13 in hg vacuum. The study also pointed out that the Fuel Preporator successfully removed virtually all of the entrained air/vapor. If you would like a copy of this report, give me a call at 877-463-4373.

Tests were also conducted on the Fuel Preporator for removal of air from diesel fuel at the University of West Virginia Emission and Engine Lab. The U of W VA tests concluded similar to the U of IL.

Thanks for your interest,

Bronco

04-13-2004, 09:32 AM

F-PREPORATOR WROTE:

Cougar281

The fuel injection system on the Duramax is a common rail system. Injection timing lag caused by the presence of air/vapor in the fuel is not a big factor, if a factor at all. However, several points should be considered when spending your hard earned $$$ to upgrade your fuel supply system.

First point: All pumps operating under a vacuum or actually even a positive pressure flow insufficient to meet the demand of the pump can cavitate and produce vapor. Additionally, air becomes entrained in fuel by the mechanical action of sloshing in the tank. This condition can quite possibly reduce the mass flow of the pump and result in lower than designed rail pressures and poor performance.

Second point: Bubbles in the fuel implode when subjected to sudden and severe pressure changes such as those experienced in a fuel injection system. When these bubbles are next to the wall of the injector barrel pitting can take place which may eventually lead to lower pressures and poor performance, also component failure.

Third Point: When the bubbles pass through the tip or nozzle, tip erosion can occur as well as poor spray patterns. This also results in poor performance.

So, what to do, go with a standard system (plain old pump and filter), or a system (fass) that advertised 3,500 current customers and then admitted in state court that the 3,500 current customers were actually Fuel Preporator customers. Also admitted in state court action, the fass had been designed by altering the blue prints to the Fuel Preporator (old style system. In fact, the fass uses 17 identical and interchangable parts of the old style Preporator). Did you know that the manufacturer of the fass is currently in Federal Court answering Federal Patent Infringement charges! Wouldn't you rather go with the Original Air/Fuel Separation and Delivery system with additional new technology, the Fuel Preporator.

New Compact Fuel Preporator FP-80 AIR DOG and FP-80 hp has relay controlled wiring harness, fuel flow pressure and filter changes monitored with pressure switch and dash mounted indicator light,water separator and 6 micron StrataPore tm filtration, mounting brackets, fuel fittings and fuel lines.

The Fuel Preporator (trademark is registered) is ISO-9001 Quality Manfactured, approved for sale and use in California by CARB, Tested by: University of West Virginia Engine and Emission Lab and found to improve performance and emissions, University of Illinois and found to remove air/vapor from fuel, Milwaukee School of Engineering for water removal, recipient of $1,750,000.00 in federal funding for military testing and patented in the United States with PCT patent filings in 117 countries.

Don't you really want the best for your truck? Why settle for anything less????

For more info call toll free, 1-877-463-4373

Thanks for your time,

Charlie

I cut and pasted this from the POWER/PERFORMANCE forum, in an attempt to keep all info. centralized.Edited by: Bronco

Oldman

04-14-2004, 11:36 AM

I missed the top line saying Charlie had posted that. I thought you were born-again! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big%20Smile.gif

Bronco

04-14-2004, 12:38 PM

I missed the top line saying Charlie had posted that. I thought you were born-again! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big%20Smile.gif

I am sure it is funny, I just do not get it?

I do have a Prep/Fass question that has been stumping me. In an attempt to bench test both units, I have to duplicate both units position in our trucks. That means there has to be a substantial sized vacum pump upstream from both units. The question is how big of an upstream pump? And secondaly, how much bypass does the upstream pump allow? There is a factory pressure regulator that allows a certain amount of bypass at all times. Without understanding the bypass amounts it is very hard to accurately bench test both of these units.

There are 2 tricks that make both the FASS and Prep separate air effectively. First is never letting the return check ball seat completly and second assuring there is a correct pressure difference across the filter. This is how the units work.

Our factory vacum pump and regulator COULD seriously alter the original design characteristics of these units.

I might have to go back to testing on the vehicle? Maybe install some clear hose on the supply side and after the regulator.

Any details on the return flow rates and the vacum of the stock lift pump/regulator would be helpfull right about now.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gifEdited by: Bronco

F-Preporator

04-14-2004, 01:04 PM

Bronco,

The Fuel Preporator does continue to separate air/vapor from the fuel even after the return regulator closes. This is a very important feature.

NOTE: When the demand of the engine fuel pump requires the full flow of the Preporator to be directed to the engine through the action of the regulator closing, the air will continue to be separated and returned to the tank through the primary gas exit port. This will continue to take place until the positive flow to the engine disipates (through filter plugging) and falls to a vacuum.

(Details, Details, its the little ones that will get you!)

Just keeping you on the right track!!!

Thanks,

F-Preporator

04-14-2004, 01:16 PM

Bronco,

I forgot to mention this. A Duramax putting out 400 to 500 HP equipped with a Preporator set at 7 psi output pressure will, at the initial surge, when going to WOT, cause the pressure to drop momentarily to 3.5 to 4 psi. After the initial surge the output pressure of the Preporator will spring back to about 5psi. I think we will raise the output of the Preporator to 8 or 9 psi to stop this. Interesting, the internal pressure of the common rail Duramax can drop 2,500 psi and have performance issues if low supply pressures are experienced!

More to come later!

Bronco

04-14-2004, 01:21 PM

Bronco

04-14-2004, 01:44 PM

F-Preporator

04-14-2004, 02:52 PM

First question: If the factory low pressure lift pump is constantly creating a vacum, will it effect your Preporator in a negative manner? The answer of course, is yes! Either the application flow is to big for the Preporator that was selected and the correct Preporator should be used or the filter has plugged beyond use.

The next point is about the reason we have an indicator light in the Preporator system. When the pressure flow to the engine disipates to the point that a filter change is necessary the light will signal this. The operator will now have been warned before the vehicle will begin to suffer power loss, etc.

I hope this will answer your concerns!

Bronco

04-14-2004, 03:43 PM

[QUOTE=F-Preporator]

First question: If the factory low pressure lift pump is constantly creating a vacum, will it effect your Preporator in a negative manner? The answer of course, is yes! Either the application flow is to big for the Preporator that was selected and the correct Preporator should be used or the filter has plugged beyond use.

So my next question is, do you know for sure, your Preporator will provide enough flow in all conditions to overcome the vacum created by the factory lift pump, in effect allowing your Preporator to perform as designed?

Oldman

04-14-2004, 04:47 PM

Bronco

04-14-2004, 05:42 PM

OIC. You thought I was really tryin to sell the thing. I get it now. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

F-Preporator

04-15-2004, 11:58 AM

Bronco stated: "So my next question is, do you know for sure, your Preporator will provide enough flow in all conditions to overcome the vacum created by the factory lift pump, in effect allowing your Preporator to perform as designed?"

Fuel Preporator International is developing a complete line of air fuel separation, filtration and delivery systems, Fuel Preporators, that will accomodate diesel engines of all sizes and flows. From the very small, 2 or 3 cylinders, to the very large, 3618 Cats to 20 cylinder 710 EMDs and others even larger.

One of the design features of the Preporator, the low pressure indicator light is to allow the operator of low pressure before it reaches the point of poor performance, the condition event you are asking about.

For the diesel engine to perform at the designed level, peak power output and efficiency and with consistency, the fuel flow from the lift pump must maintain correct operating pressures and be free of air and vapors. To do this the lift pump must have an inlet flow of fuel that is free of entrained air. Entrained air will vary due to changes in atmospheric pressure, agitation and temperature which effects specific gravity and surface tension. The fuel must also be supplied to the pump at a pressure flow that completely fills the mechanism, preventing cavitation and the internal production of vapors. An important point to recognize is that even though the inlet pressure to the pump may be positive and fill the pump at the lower operating speeds, it may not be great enough to fill the pump at the higher operating speeds causing the pump to cavitate. This results in low torque output at higher rpm.

Bronco

04-15-2004, 02:53 PM

Charles,

I am driving at two issues. They are obviously potential weaknesses of the FASS and or Preporator.

The first issue is in regards to the seating or near seating of the regulator check ball. Your response was that your unit will continue to remove air even if the check ball becomes seated. Although FASS has not responded on this form to my exact question, Brad did tell me on the phone that his unit will never allow the check ball to seat or come close to seating due to having an extremely positive fuel flow.

The second issue is that you stated neither unit will operate correctly if the output becomes a vacum. I assume as long as a pressure gauge reads a positive number, the output will never be in a vacum and therfore the unit will be performing as developed. Obviously if the filter becomes plugged or the engine is requiring severe flow demand the output could drop to a vacum do to the factory lift pump searching for more feed. You have already stated you manufacture many size of pumps for different fuel flow demands.

A pressure gauge never dropping below a positive number and better yet a pressure gauge never dropping below the preset pressure is ideal.Edited by: Bronco

F-Preporator

04-15-2004, 09:58 PM

Bronco,

You have just pointed out one major problem in the current filtration systems in use by the diesel engines of the world, vacuum feed!!! Remember, a pump is a positive displacement mechanism.You can calculate the pressure flow needed to fill it at any operating speed (So as to prevent cavitation). To rate the efficiency of the fuel supply system in inches of vacuum, the minimal or maximum operating restriction allowed.

NOTE: Vacuum is just the pressure drop experienced across the filter or through the lines and has nothing to do with the pressure needed to fill the pump. Vacuum is in reality the rating of the INEFFICIENCY of the system.

QUOTE Bronco: Brad did tell me on the phone that his unit will never allow the check ball to seat or come close to seating due to having an extremely positive fuel flow.

Let me point out that the spring and regulator is forced open by fuel pressure/flow from the pump being greater than the flow allowed to pass to the engine. The excess fuel flow forces the regulator open. When the flow demand of the engine becomes greater than the flow from the pump as the flow is reduced by fuel filter restriction, the regulator or check ball will definitely close in order to maintain flow to the engine!! Remember, the person who told you his unit will never allow the check ball to seat is the same person that admitted in state court that the 3,500 current FASS customers he had were in fact Fuel Preporator customers and also admitted that he mistakenly gave the wrong address for himself and his father to the Sec. of State of Illinois after stating that he did know and would never forget those addresses... ....Oooops, a little perjury ???

Bronco: "The second issue is that you stated neither unit will operate correctly if the output becomes a vacum."

You are Right On Target! When the output of the supply system becomes a vacuum, everything goes back to operating the same as before. This is why Preporator includes a warning system or monitor, the pressure switch and indicator light is standard equipment. If the pump fails or the filter plugs or you run out of fuel, you get low pressure or no pressure and the indicator light warns you.

Kennedy

04-16-2004, 10:45 AM

Why not just put BOTH on and then you'll KNOW you have the best of both worlds...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Bronco

04-20-2004, 11:11 AM

Why not just put BOTH on and then you'll KNOW you have the best of both worlds...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Hey Kennedy thanks for the great advice! Would the same logic hold true if I put on both of your filters? Would I gather twice as much air? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Diesel Power

04-20-2004, 11:48 AM

Bronco

04-20-2004, 12:37 PM

Diesel Power,

You are correct. As long as the pump is sized correctly, you will never see a vacum in the system. A simple pressure gauge would verify this for you, but like you said there are users here who have verified positive fuel pressure readings at all times while using either the FASS or Preporator.

My original intent of this thread was to inquire if any users here had used the FASS? I have since learned of the other" air removal device" the Preporator. My involvment with these 2 products has went deeper than I would have ever thought . The backround and funtion of these two products is interesting to say the least.

There are a few unaswered questions that need to be adressed. I have listened to everything the manufactures of these products have stated , but for my own understanding/belief, I would like to verify some of the claims/statements.

Here is the list of questions I am attempting to answer.

1. Does diesel fuel really contain 10% entrained air worst case?

2. Is entrained air detremental to the longevity/performance of the Duramax engine?

3. Is the secondary air removal system, that only the Preporator provides an absolute requirement in order to effectively remove air?

4. Can either kit be sucsefully installed by the at home do it your selfer with no special tools, vehicle lifts, custom fabrication and parts sourcing? This question #4 is highly subjective and opionated. It totally depends on your resources, apptitude and tolerance.

5. Will a high quality diesel fuel additive reduce the amount of entrained air in diesel fuel?

I have rearranged my schedule and am hoping to be able to devote more time to this project in the very near future.Edited by: Bronco

Diesel Power

04-20-2004, 01:23 PM

Here is the list of questions I am attempting to answer.

1. Does diesel fuel really contain 10% entrained air worst case?

2. Is entrained air detremental to the longevity/performance of the Duramax engine?

3. Is the secondary air removal system, that only the Preporator provides an absolute requirement in order to effectively remove air?

4. Can either kit be sucsefully installed by the at home do it your selfer with no special tools, vehicle lifts, custom fabrication and parts sourcing? This question #4 is highly subjective and opionated. It totally depends on your resources, apptitude and tolerance.

5. Will a high quality diesel fuel additive reduce the amount of entrained air in diesel fuel?

To be honest, i have no idea about #'s 1 and 2.. i would think, that if #'s 1 and 2 were true, then #3 would have some merit. however i believe i've read that common rail is not as susceptible to performance drops from air. for instance my local dyno shop has installed a couple fass units on common rail dodge's. they said the pump worked well but they didn't get any HP increase from the air removal feature alone. i believe charles has even mentioned this about common rail. there may still be some wear-related benefits from less air. ultimately only time will tell.

#4- i would say yes. i've sold a couple nicktane brackets to fass/prep customers for mounting their pumps. granted they need to modify it slightly but the basic mounting principal is the same. i'm sure one has to go buy a couple fittings and some fuel line, but i don't think that's out of the realm of most people's abilities.

#5- no clue.. George Morrison may be best suited for that question. i tend to think it wouldn't matter but i'm no chemist!

Kennedy

04-20-2004, 04:41 PM

Maybe the answers lie in the "minutes" from the battle in Federal patent court???

Diesel Power

04-20-2004, 07:43 PM

John-

They very well may! Then again those things sometimes drag on for years...

Trippin

04-20-2004, 11:59 PM

Question #4. Yes, installed FASS in the driveway....well half in the garage and half in the driveway as the CC Long bed is a taste too long for the garage. The hardest part was using the Lisle tool to remove the !#$%^&* factory fuel fittings.

FYI...I have no:

resources
apptitude
or tolerance!

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gifEdited by: Trippin

hdmax

05-14-2004, 01:34 PM

Today is the day of the speed chanel show where you can find out one of this soap. Don`t forget it is this evening at 7:30 PM Eastern time.

So after more then 3 months and Bronco doing at least 3 about face, (And maybe many more we don`t know about) What have we learned?

Also Bronco stated that he returned the F.A.S.S. but then said he will be doing test on both, Did he repurchase it? Lets get an update and view this evenings show!

Bronco

05-14-2004, 02:07 PM

HDMAX,

I have had a change of attitude/perception a few times through out this process. As I learn more about the products/manufactures and more information becomes available, my understanding grows/changes.

Currently I will not be providing any new info. in regards to either product due to finacial and time constraints.

Maybe some other members can test and provide feedback in regards to either of these products, the levels of entrained air and the effects it has on diesel engine longevity and performance? Edited by: Bronco

GIT-R-DONE

05-14-2004, 04:44 PM

It has become ridiculous with the bickering and fighting between the two product makers. Not only on this site, but others as well. Us Dodge guys with the failing lift pump troubles (98.5-02) have been looking for a fix for the problem. Personally I bought the FASS and have had no troubles with its performance. The truck runs good, and I dont have to worry about the pump failing on me (knock on wood). Since there are like 17 seperate parts that are the same from the FASS to the Preporator ( correct me if I am wrong ) I doubt you could go wrong with either purchase. My only question to you Duramax owners is, why are you looking for a fuel system fix? Are you having any trouble with your fuel systems like the 24 valve, Second generation Dodges? If your not having trouble with it, why fix something that isnt broke. If your are not a high HP truck that needs the higher pressures of these pumps, I wouldnt waste my money on these systems and put your hard earned $ into something that you need.

Idle_Chatter

05-14-2004, 05:20 PM

My only question to you Duramax owners is, why are you looking for a fuel system fix?

Many of the people are performance mavens and looking for additional power, but a few more of us feel that the DuraMax design inappropriately deleted the lift pump, which it appears from all that I've read is expected in the Bosch HPCR system. I'm in the process of putting together a low-pressure high-volume lift pump system for my truck to feed the injection pump and more effectively utilize my OEM and post-OEM Kennedy Megafilters. I don't see any negative side to the installation and feel pretty strongly that it will have positive effects.

Horse Trainer

05-14-2004, 05:23 PM

Amen!!

GIT-R-DONE

05-14-2004, 05:37 PM

Forgive me as I dont know the Duramax system that well, other than what I have read on here. A friend of mine has one and really likes it.

As far as the quest for power goes, although it may be different with your trucks, (why I dont know) the before and after dyno of mine (DODGE) netted me no gain on HP or TQ. There have been others that have dynoed and only gained (under 10-12 HP) using the FASS. If the reason for buying these systems is HP, (unless the Duramax is different) I'll bet your barking up the wrong tree.

It would be nice if you dyno before and after the install to actually see if you did gain anything. Please keep us posted. Thanks

Diesel Tech

05-14-2004, 05:58 PM

ArrBee

05-14-2004, 06:00 PM

Ahhh, its been a while since I visited this thread (-:
I think about dissolved air in my fuel from time to time, basically I believe it to an extent, but don't believe it to be a problem in need of a solution (pun).
I was thinking about foaming today and imagined a tall glass jar filled with something (ok, beer). We know the foam floats, I would SUSPECT that the highest concentration of dissolved or suspended gas is just below the foam. I would GUESS that the deeper one gets the less gas there is. There might be none at the bottom, or too little to worry about. As I remember it beer is drunk from the top of the glass, but fuel is withdrawn from the bottom of the tank. So, if the concentration does get lower with depth, at least we're drawing fuel from the area of lowest gas concentration.

My conclusion at this point is that there are at least two competing solutions in search of a problem and it (the problem) ain't here.

Further study required: Maybe drinking beer from the bottom of a tall glass through a straw would provide some qualitative data ? "Experiential" data ? Lemme know if it produces less stomach gas. I've heard that drinking champagne through a straw makes you very drunk very quickly, though maybe you need to already be drunk to do that.

PS (-: (-:

F-Preporator

05-14-2004, 11:19 PM

To all who have been following these threads, I must tell you that if you are tired of the the controversy you should see it from this side. The disappointment, the frustration, the waste of energy, how sad!! Especially when it involves family.

Air/vapor in diesel fuel and the need to remove it is nothing new. On researching the issue you would find that, as evidenced by the patents that have been filed over the last 106 years, many individuals and major companys, the world over, have tried to do this without success. Why are none of these devices on the market? They were bubble collectors that addressed only bubbles that were bouyant enough to float and neglected the issue of pump cavitation or bubbles that are simply too small to float out of the fuel.

After having spent several years researching and developing a working method and prototype of a device that acturally separated air/vapor from the fuel, the objective was to create a marketable model that would stand up to day to day use and perform adequately. Also, obtain patent protection that has now been done. Patents have issued in 1994, 1996, 1998, and again, May 4th, 2004. The later which has had PCT filings in 117 countries. Additionally, it was understood that the world of internal combustion engines, both gas and diesel, had been subjected for decades to constant exposure to gadgets, gizmos, magnets and snake oil that claim to align molecules to make fuel burn cleaner, turbulators that swirl fuel to make it burn cleaner, etc., ionizers that, Duh!!, ionize fuel to make it burn better and so on and so on! Credibility would be of question.

Are these other devices credible, are they approved for sale and use in California by CARB? Fuel Preporator is! Are these other devices being studied by the US Military? , See line 16 of the US, 2004, Federal Budget, Fuel Preporator is! Are these other devices being used on diesel equipment by America's largest public utility? Fuel Preporator is! Are these other devices being used by major tug boat lines on the Mississippi and many other major waterways? Fuel Preporator is! Is Fuel Preporator being sued in Federal Court for Patent Infringement? NO! Has Fuel Preporator admitted to altering someone else's blue prints? NO! Has Fuel Preporator admitted that our customers were really someone elses customers? NO! Has Fuel Preporator claimed to remove air/vapor as well, etc., as some one else's? No, we are the original also patented product and the leader in the industry! Are we as tired of all of this as you are? YES!!

The Fuel Preporator has been studied by the University of Illinois and the University of West Virginia Emission and Engine Lab and determined to separate the entrained air from the fuel, etc. We have these reports. We also have documented reports and studies of reduced exhaust emissions. We have passed Japan's 15 mode transient emission tests.

Air becomes entrained in fuel from sloshing and separates in the filter, (Ref. Cummin's Service Topic 5-135, 1965 also Caterpillar's March, 1990 Special Instruction #651-1250, selling a site glass so one can see the "normally No. 2 diesel fuel contains about 10% air in solution, although the air is not visible." Additionally, a pump running under a vacuum will cavitate and produce vapor when the pressure flow at the inlet to the pump allows the vapor pressure to become greater than the liquid pressure. A common occurrence in most all vacuum feed pump situations.

The presence of air/vapor in diesel fuel injections retards injection timing resulting in poor performance, lesser fuel economy and increased exhaust emissions. The removal of Air/vapor from the fuel results in restored injection timing which results in increased performance, improved fuel economy and less exhaust emissions!

If your are interested in a quality, unique product that does what it

Trippin

05-14-2004, 11:33 PM

Could you please list the patent numbers, so that I may do a little light reading in my spare time?

Thanks in advance,

hdmax

05-16-2004, 05:49 PM

The Dodge starts out with a lift pump as Bosch called out for. The Duramax left out the lift pump and allows the low pressure pump to draw the fuel from the tank, which works fine at stock Hp levels and stock fuel systems. Since both the Cummins and Duramax use the same low pressure and High pressure pumps it's safe to assume they would both need a lift pump but GM didn't do it. So the Duramax needs the lift pump added.

I completly disagree. The Duramax does not need a lift pump as it has been proven over and over. It is only when one wants more then 500 rwhp without drugs that any one seams to need it. And even then it is not known how much if any it is helping.

So with that said; The Duramax is not in need of any kind of extra fuel pump, no lift pump, no other pump. Even running 350-425 rwhp for 58,000+ miles, I have never had any indication of fuel starvation. Not in the least. It looks to me like you are trying to use the scare tactic now! Once again the Duramax does not need a lift pump!

If you want 500 rwhp maybe, but it has not yet been proven to be the answer.

F-Preporator

05-16-2004, 06:11 PM

5,355,860: filed July 9,1992; issued October 18, 1994

5,746,184: filed June 17, 1994; issued May 5, 1998

US 6,729,310 B2, Filed June 18, 2001; issued May 4, 2004

Thanks for your interest,

Charlie

Trippin

05-16-2004, 08:43 PM

5,355,860: filed July 9,1992; issued October 18, 1994

5,746,184: filed June 17, 1994; issued May 5, 1998

US 6,729,310 B2, Filed June 18, 2001; issued May 4, 2004

Thanks for your interest,

Charlie

Thanks Charles! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

Diesel Tech

05-16-2004, 10:10 PM

I completly disagree. The Duramax does not need a lift pump as it has been proven over and over. It is only when one wants more then 500 rwhp without drugs that any one seams to need it. And even then it is not known how much if any it is helping.

So with that said; The Duramax is not in need of any kind of extra fuel pump, no lift pump, no other pump. Even running 350-425 rwhp for 58,000+ miles, I have never had any indication of fuel starvation. Not in the least. It looks to me like you are trying to use the scare tactic now! Once again the Duramax does not need a lift pump!

If you want 500 rwhp maybe, but it has not yet been proven to be the answer.

I have no need to use scare tactics. I donot sell or market any kind of lift pump so I really have no stake in this. What I can tell you is that it has been proven over and over again that a lift pump helps. Just talk with Diesel Power. His truck went from bursting and making 425 Hp and 750 ish torque to 456 Hp and 940 ft lbs by adding the lift pump. It's my belief that each truck will respond different based on the condition of the stock fuel pump and the Hp being made. So if your stock I donot believe the lift pump is necessary, but as your truck ages and you step the power up you do.

Diesel Power

05-16-2004, 10:57 PM

As steve said every truck is different, but in my case it helped. if you don't believe me i'll send you the video of it bursting on the dyno before the pump..

hasselbach

05-17-2004, 03:46 AM

I just watched the Two Guys Garage show on the lift pump.. What a hype on several issues.

1. They first ran the truck with a 5-inch exhaust, but no before hp-tq numbers were given with the stock exhaust. That goof ball Sam Mememlo claimed that the early torque peak was directly due to the exhaust system but how about a pretest 'duh' so we can see really if the 5-incher does in fact do what you claim it does.

2. They installed the FASS, but again, no testing afterward to see any Hp Tq numbers. (ah, Memo to Sam, again, how about a pre-test on your sponsors parts?)

3. They then installed the hypertech unit, but then gave the hp-tq numbers after the FASS installation and raved about how great the hypertech was.

This show is lame in my opinion, not to mention a total advertising hype for their sponsors. Reminds me of both times my Camaro was cover and feature articles in Car Craft and Chevy High Performance a few years ago. When they wrote the articles, both times they insisted to write about parts installed in my car that didn’t exist (I didn’t have a accel distributor, nor Crane lifters, nor Richmond Gears, etc).

I was really disappointed in the show tonight, it was almost like watching a infomercial on the parts that they installed… good grief.

Edited by: hasselbach

GIT-R-DONE

05-17-2004, 05:32 AM

Hasselbach, They installed the Fuel Preporator on that truck, not the FASS. I agree, they should have Dyno'd after the Preporator install, especially after all the discussion on these sites concerning all the "HP" gains. I would have thought Charles would have made sure to that, but...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

hasselbach

05-17-2004, 01:02 PM

BadDog

05-17-2004, 01:47 PM

I bet with the money that Charlie paid for the exposure, they opted to delete a dyno test that probably showed no improvement in hp.

That same thought crossed my mind... They don't want advertisers to be shown in a negative light under ANY circumstances, regardless of what that takes...

hasselbach

05-17-2004, 02:22 PM

Well, funny you should ask, here is a direct quote from Brad at Fass on another web site (Turbo Diesel Register)....

I realize that the dyno did not show any horsepower increase over the dyno performed 2 months earlier and I really appreciate everybody's support about our product!!!!

Hmmmm, maybe that's why nothing was shown on two guys..

F-Preporator

05-17-2004, 03:47 PM

I would have liked to have had the dyno run with just the Preporator However, this was the call of the show's producers.

For those who missed the broadcast, it will air again Wednesday @ 3:30 PM, Thursday @ 8:00AM, Saturday @ 7:30 PM and Sunday @11:00 AM. All Eastern Standard Time.

Our product gets dyno'd regularly on class 7 and 8 truck engines. The horsepower improvements are usually in the 25 to 50 hp range, the torque, which pushes the load is much higher. The figures can be documented.

Thanks for your interest.

Charlie

hasselbach

05-17-2004, 04:11 PM

Charlie, you posted the following on 3-17-04 with the TDR web page:

The 'AIR DOG' installation, with 'before' & 'after' dynos, and the Fuel Preporator demo stand separating air from the fuel can be seen on national tv on "The Two Guys Garage" show, May 15, 2004 at 7:30 PM EST, on the SPEED Channel. You don't want to miss this!

Yet today you said:

I would have liked to have had the dyno run with just the Preporator However, this was the call of the show's producers.

Just curious, were you under the impression that dyno runs before and after were going to be made while filming the show? Where you present as a technical support during the filming? Did they actually run both before and after dyno pulls yet edit them out?

Also, today you mention 25 to 50 hp can be documented on class 7 and 8 engines. If so, please post them if they can be documented, I'm sure a ton of readers (ie potential customers) would be interested in seeing them, thanks!