I've been assuming that Canada will be adopting/following the USA emissions standards for 2011, but does anyone know whether that is indeed the case? Even if Canada isn't imposing the new standards, will GM be manufacturing ALL of the new diesels with urea injection, whether they go to Canada or not?

Ontario will most likely be using it. Our standards are much the same as cali

chev.

i highly doubt it

I've been assuming that Canada will be adopting/following the USA emissions standards for 2011, but does anyone know whether that is indeed the case? Even if Canada isn't imposing the new standards, will GM be manufacturing ALL of the new diesels with urea injection, whether they go to Canada or not?

I spoke with my truck guy at the local Dealership and the last info he has is that the new diesels coming up here (At least in BC) will have the Urea Injection on them. So I'm guessing if they are coming to BC that way, all the Dmax Diesels coming to Canada will probably have that feature. However, things could always change.

I've thoroughly searched the websites for Transport Canada and Environment Canada, where general references are made to a policy of harmonization of vehicle emissions standards, but no specifics. Also tried emailing GM Canada and got a stupid silly reply stating that no 2011 information is yet available. There must be a Canadian tech out there who has the info???

Canadian trucks WILL have the same emissions equipment as the US trucks.

Thanks DirtyDogofTheDesert, but where did you get the information please? Do you have a link or reference for the information?

I talked to one of the GM factory reps at a farm show, he said he worked exclusively on the HD truck line and there will be urea in all Canadian Dmax trucks. I don't think our emissions stds have been any different than the states as of the last few years.

The lml is designed around urea as an integral part of emissions system and includes benifits like fewer regens, extra regen injector in exhaust stream to prevent fuel in oil dilution and mileage. Since no more lmm engines are made there will be urea on the Canadian trucks - regardless of any laws.

It would be interesting to learn, from someone who knows the process, how the new emissions system can result in fewer regenerations. The DPF may have been redesigned, so that it holds more soot, because I don't understand how the urea reduces the soot accumulation. The urea breaks down into ammonia in the exhaust stream and reacts with the oxides of nitrogen to produce nitrogen and water. It doesn't react with the carbon in the exhaust so it can't directly affect the soot accumulation. Seems like the same amount of fuel is still going to produce the same amount of soot. Hmmm.

We have no filling stations or even plants for urea so I guess we can't run new trucks here in sask. So don't count on seeing lml trucks aorund here if they do require it. Which I highly doubt will happen anyways

The urea mix is already available at our local Canadian Tire store, so Saskatchewan isn't going to be exempt. In addition, a recent news item on our TV news indicated Canada and the USA have signed a new cooperative agreement for vehicle emissions. So like it or not, we're getting the new urea vehicles.

It would be interesting to learn, from someone who knows the process, how the new emissions system can result in fewer regenerations. The DPF may have been redesigned, so that it holds more soot, because I don't understand how the urea reduces the soot accumulation. The urea breaks down into ammonia in the exhaust stream and reacts with the oxides of nitrogen to produce nitrogen and water. It doesn't react with the carbon in the exhaust so it can't directly affect the soot accumulation. Seems like the same amount of fuel is still going to produce the same amount of soot. Hmmm.

It's GM's proprietary PFM module

The urea mix is already available at our local Canadian Tire store, so Saskatchewan isn't going to be exempt. In addition, a recent news item on our TV news indicated Canada and the USA have signed a new cooperative agreement for vehicle emissions. So like it or not, we're getting the new urea vehicles.


ok so that one station that i even know about who has it. how are they supposed to sell new truck if there is only a few station in western canada that carry it. till its more available i dont see it happening.

thats like saying they need special diesel and only selling it at a few stations in the province.

If you look at page 6 on this link you will see that one of the major manufacturers of the urea fluid, DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) is based in Calgary. The company is Agrium Inc.
http://www.factsaboutscr.com/def/documents/DEFFAQ-5-14-2009.pdf

And this link mentions a bunch of places where it has been stocked in Canada since January 1, 2010:
http://www.hinoscr.com/dieselexhaust/

And this one mentions that all Cummins dealers will be stocking it in Canada:
http://www.worldfuels.com/TRIAL/MARKETING/GlobalRefining_Report/Content/5d854b4a-409c-4b8a-a726-c6afd1f30a07.php

It's a go !!!

What a PIA this Urea thing is. The Dodge 6.7 L Cummins manages to meet it's emission requirements without using Urea? I wonder what they do that GM doesn't. I've read a little about their Blutec technology, pretty interesting stuff.

Cummins decided to achieve the reductions in oxides of nitrogen by recirculating a greater percentage of the exhaust gasses back through the engine. The high temperatures and deprivation of oxygen then reduce the oxides back to nitrogen .

The unanswered question regarding the use of this technique is whether it has degraded power and mpg in the new Cummins engine. The reason that Ford and GM went for the DEF technology is because they could REDUCE the amount of exhaust gas recirculation, allowing the engine to develop more power and better miles per gallon. Recirculating exhaust gasses reduces power output because a portion of the ideal amount clean air/fuel mixture is replaced by recirculated exhaust gasses.

It seems like it might be a risky and dirty thing to do to recirculate a greater percentage of exhaust gasses back through the engine. Time will tell whether it results in more engine wear and other problems for Cummins. The DEF technology has been well proven in Europe and in stationary diesel engines, such as those used for emergency generators.

Cummins decided to achieve the reductions in oxides of nitrogen by recirculating a greater percentage of the exhaust gasses back through the engine. The high temperatures and deprivation of oxygen then reduce the oxides back to nitrogen .

The unanswered question regarding the use of this technique is whether it has degraded power and mpg in the new Cummins engine. The reason that Ford and GM went for the DEF technology is because they could REDUCE the amount of exhaust gas recirculation, allowing the engine to develop more power and better miles per gallon. Recirculating exhaust gasses reduces power output because a portion of the ideal amount clean air/fuel mixture is replaced by recirculated exhaust gasses.

It seems like it might be a risky and dirty thing to do to recirculate a greater percentage of exhaust gasses back through the engine. Time will tell whether it results in more engine wear and other problems for Cummins. The DEF technology has been well proven in Europe and in stationary diesel engines, such as those used for emergency generators.

Based on what I've heard about Dodge's issues with turbo's being replaced repeatedly under warranty for soot related issues, I think Cummins/ Dodge needs to look at DEF

well we have none of those listed anywhere near me. the closest station is 240km away. looks like ill be hangin onto my LBZ for a long time!

If it's at canuck tire here it will be at canuck tire there. Cummins/dodge is using urea in the heavier 4500 chassis cab truck.

the DEF(urea) is to treat the NOx out of the exhaust because it contributes to acid rain, but that doesn't seem to be problem as much since russia's industry has slowed down after the coldwar. seems alot of your fellow canadians complained about it hence NOx controls, reduced effeciency from engines. reducing egr should cutdown on soot, which by its own accumilation will create more soot. think you suppose to buy screw top molson and use it to save/recycle it into your def tank.

well we have none of those listed anywhere near me. the closest station is 240km away. looks like ill be hangin onto my LBZ for a long time!

I guarantee it wont be long before its available at every gas station/oil change place. Or the dealer, etc...

Trust me guys, its not going to be hard to find by the time these new trucks hit the lots.

And as for the cummins not using urea, they are also a LOT less hp and torque...and get much worse MPG's. The urea is the reason that the new trucks are going to get 18+ mpg STOCK. We should be embracing this system, not dismissing it/being ignorant/calling it a POS before we've even seen it. I love the idea of it. Keeps the stupid tree huggers happy, promotes the image that diesels can be VERY CLEAN, and gets awesome fuel economy. Whats not to like about it?

Oh ok, sorry there is a "downside". You have to spend an extra 15 bucks at each oil change (or every ~5,000 miles)...such a burden I know. :p:

ben

im just looking at it from an after market point of view. im sure it wont take long for some of theses companies to find ways around it just like the DPF.

Ford dealer here wants $13 gal. Seems kinda pricey. How many gallons will it take?

Ford dealer here wants $13 gal. Seems kinda pricey. How many gallons will it take?

ripoff. Once it becomes more widely available the price should be 2.50-3.00 per gallon.

The tank on the trucks holds a little over 5 gallons.

ripoff. Once it becomes more widely available the price should be 2.50-3.00 per gallon


You're right, it is a ripoff but there is not a snowballs chance in hell the price will go down. This is a product that you need just as much as fuel (Look at how widely available fuel is, has it gone down in price?). They're going to rape you on this stuff just like every other thing they sell you because there is no competition for it. You need it, they got it, and you're going to pay for it. :bendover:

You're right, it is a ripoff but there is not a snowballs chance in hell the price will go down. This is a product that you need just as much as fuel (Look at how widely available fuel is, has it gone down in price?). They're going to rape you on this stuff just like every other thing they sell you because there is no competition for it. You need it, they got it, and you're going to pay for it. :bendover:

You are crazy if you think urea is going to stay at $13 a gallon.

If, in 6-10 months the cheapest you can find it is still $13 a gallon, THEN you can call me the biggest fool in the world and laugh me off this forum to your heart's content.

Allison spin-on filters are 39.95 from any chevy dealer. You need those just as much as fuel too right? Oh shit but guess what, they're 7-8 bucks at the allison dealer. :rolleyes:

jeez everyone just needs to wait on this whole urea thing before assuming and drawing their own doomsday-negative conclusions with no facts to back it up.

ben

You are crazy if you think urea is going to stay at $13 a gallon.

If, in 6-10 months the cheapest you can find it is still $13 a gallon, THEN you can call me the biggest fool in the world and laugh me off this forum to your heart's content.

Allison spin-on filters are 39.95 from any chevy dealer. You need those just as much as fuel too right? Oh shit but guess what, they're 7-8 bucks at the allison dealer. :rolleyes:

jeez everyone just needs to wait on this whole urea thing before assuming and drawing their own doomsday-negative conclusions with no facts to back it up.

ben


I should have said it won't go down very much and I never once infered that you were a fool or that I planned on laughing you off of this forum. It's JMHO. I will say say it's going to be expensive. As far as filters go, there are tons of manufacturers out there that make filters which can keep the cost down. I don't think you're going to have a pile of guys start producing urea to keep the cost down. Don't forget, Varty and I live up here in a land where we get raped for anything automotive. There will probably be more of these trucks in one state in the U.S than there will be in the whole country up here.

I should have said it won't go down very much and I never once infered that you were a fool or that I planned on laughing you off of this forum. It's JMHO. I will say say it's going to be expensive. As far as filters go, there are tons of manufacturers out there that make filters which can keep the cost down. I don't think you're going to have a pile of guys start producing urea to keep the cost down. Don't forget, Varty and I live up here in a land where we get raped for anything automotive. There will probably be more of these trucks in one state in the U.S than there will be in the whole country up here.

Same analogy applies to Urea. Any crappy chem lab ANYWHERE can produce urea quick, easy, and cheap. You can be sure that now that there is becoming a market for the stuff, companies will start making it, and the price WILL come down. You do have a point about your isolated area, but urea is going to become commonplace.
Even Dodge is going to go Urea. Diesel's will all have to have it, including Semi's and industrial uses, (generators, etc). It may take a year or 2 for you to see it in some remote corner of Canada, but urea will be cheap.

As far as filters go, there are tons of manufacturers out there that make filters which can keep the cost down.

tons of companies making allison filters? Are you sure? ;)

as far as them truck in canada sure there may not be many in hongcover but here in oil country ever other vechile is a truck

as far as them truck in canada sure there may not be many in hongcover but here in oil country ever other vechile is a truck

its Vancouver not hong couver keep the bigotry to yourself as you were a immigrant to this land as well and has NOTHING to do with the topic.


now back to the regular banter... there is already a DPF delete system for the 6.7 ford saw it today browsing another site and i doubt it will take H&S / Spartan / SCT very long to get a tune working for it either. but at a dealer list price of $4500 for the one piece DPF/SCR system you might want to store yours if you do buy a LML

There will probably be more of these trucks in one state in the U.S than there will be in the whole country up here.


Yeah maybe, but.... Some states have a bigger population then all of Canada.

as far as them truck in canada sure there may not be many in hongcover but here in oil country ever other vechile is a truck

lol Hongcover, thats priceless...


chev.

the urea seems like a good idea. i just wanna be able to ditch the DPF