Just picked up my truck yesterday and I'm really disappointed on how stiff the front end is. I've ridden in a few 3/4 ton trucks and don't remember any of them being this stiff. The front end almost jumped on a couple corners with larger bumps.

It has a 2" leveling kit (torsion bar keys) installed, and I was told the torsion bars are set as low as they can go now (haven't looked myself). I was also told it rides better now than it did with the torsion bars cranked up to clear the larger tires.

Will a better set of shocks help to settle thing thing down? If so, which ones are recommended?

Any other recommendations?

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/knaffie/06%202500HD%204x4%20LBZ/P2130392.jpg

If the bars aren't cranked at all w/ green keys, then they would about 1/2 way up w/ stockers. You NEED new shocks! Extensions are a minimum, but Bilsteins 5100 would be a great choice
.

I have the answer!!!

DECRANK back to stock!!!

But i do feel for you my LMM rides 10X stiffer than my LBZ and im not really cranked that much, the stock keys are almost maxed out but i dont have green keys yet

My LBZ was cranked way way up at it floated down the Road

When you say "green keys", what are you referring to? Is that a certain type/brand of torsion bar keys?

If I need extended length shocks, how much longer? Will 2" do it? Anybody have a part numbers.

You can also get shock extenders.

a friend of mine had keys put on his and it rode rough as hell. put bilsteins on it and its almost better than stock

I cranked mine up 2" and the truck rides better than stock.

Cognito UCA's and Bilstein 5100's.

new shocks are a must uca's are also a good investment

Take a couple of pictures of the lower shock mount and the drop out stop on the upper control arm so we can get an idea of your set up.

Just picked up my truck yesterday and I'm really disappointed on how stiff the front end is. I've ridden in a few 3/4 ton trucks and don't remember any of them being this stiff. The front end almost jumped on a couple corners with larger bumps.

It has a 2" leveling kit (torsion bar keys) installed, and I was told the torsion bars are set as low as they can go now (haven't looked myself). I was also told it rides better now than it did with the torsion bars cranked up to clear the larger tires.

Will a better set of shocks help to settle thing thing down? If so, which ones are recommended?

Any other recommendations?



The reason its riding rough is (a) by cranking your torsion bars you lift the truck by taking the suspension closer to full extension (b) increasing the 'spring' rate by increasing the tension on the bar. When you eliminate the amount of down travel, your ride becomes harsh. The suspension needs to allow the wheels to follow the ground while keeping the chassis level. And at the same time the chassis needs to be balanced; front to rear.
The best thing to do is to buy a longer and properly valved shock for what you're trying to do. Bilstien, Fox, and King all make shocks for your application. The most popular would be the Bilstien simply because its cost effective and does the job for the most part. If you go with a Fox or King, you'll have the ability to adjust the valving and nitrogen pressures. I've been in different trucks with the 3 different manufactures shocks installed, and I am partial to the King set up.

The reason its riding rough is (a) by cranking your torsion bars you lift the truck by taking the suspension closer to full extension (b) increasing the 'spring' rate by increasing the tension on the bar. When you eliminate the amount of down travel, your ride becomes harsh. The suspension needs to allow the wheels to follow the ground while keeping the chassis level. And at the same time the chassis needs to be balanced; front to rear.
The best thing to do is to buy a longer and properly valved shock for what you're trying to do. Bilstien, Fox, and King all make shocks for your application. The most popular would be the Bilstien simply because its cost effective and does the job for the most part. If you go with a Fox or King, you'll have the ability to adjust the valving and nitrogen pressures. I've been in different trucks with the 3 different manufactures shocks installed, and I am partial to the King set up.

Wrong. You can't increase/decrease the spring rate of a torsion bar - they're linear. What you can do however, is adjust the angle at which they work. IE: Cranking your torsion bars. However, they will feel stiffer because of the new angles your front end will be working with.

you can add any shock you want but you wont see a significant increase in ride quality until you get rid of the ghetto front lift (cranking the torsions preloads the suspension and results in a shitty ride and premature parts wear).

drop it back down to stock and maybe some shocks and it will be a huge difference. if you want to keep the level stance i would recommend cognito. they lift and level the right way and it will still ride great.

DUDE! One answer will solve your problem. Cognito UCA's. go to their website and read up on why you cannot level these trucks without changing the upper control arm.

simple as that. it is riding stiff because you have maxed out everything and you cannot do that without the uca upgrade.

Thanks for all the advice everybody. I'll check into the shocks and Cognito UCA's.

Cranking the T bars is the same thing as adding keys, this does not increase the spring rate. What is happening when you crank the bars is a few things; #1:The stock shocks top out on themselves at downward wheel travel because they are not long enough.
#2: the uca ball joints are maxed out on downward travel.
#3: the uca bumpstop hits the framestop before the uca even has a chance to use more downward travel.
#4: the wheels get pulled in at a bad angle because the length of the uca's are not designed to work in a leveling application.

These are a lot of bad things happening all together and making a terrible ride, it is easily confused with it being a "stiffer" ride. It's not the T bars making it stiff.

Cognito UCA's are designed to correct all of these things. They feature longer geometry , ball joints placed at the correct angle and a relocated bump stop.

These UCA's are a 100% necessity to do a leveling kit on these trucks. The ride quality with these and some good shocks.......It is like night and day compared to stock. Feels like you are flying it's so smooth.

Wow, that's great to hear!

DUDE! One answer will solve your problem. Cognito UCA's. go to their website and read up on why you cannot level these trucks without changing the upper control arm.

simple as that. it is riding stiff because you have maxed out everything and you cannot do that without the uca upgrade.

:agreed: We have taken off a lot of the torsion key type kits and replaced them with the Cognito leveling system. Huge improvement in ride!

I don't know why Cognito calls it a leveling kit. They should call it a leveling-fix kit.

Don't know if this has been mentioned but the "green keys" are a gm key for a 1500 chevy.They have a different "clocking".

The fourwheel shop that I use thought I was full of sheet when I said I wanted them to install a set of 1500 keys. They said they have never heard of this and they always use aftermarket keys.When the tech was finished and walked in with my truck keys the manager asked if what I said was right and the tech nodded yes. Thanks to the guys at DP for more knowledge than I can shake a stick at.:DNothing like teaching the pro's a few things.

Several things of what people are telling you here, are not a must-have item. The ball joints dont max out with the OEM UCAs. You don't need Cognito UCAs with only 2" lift in front. You don't neccessarily need longer shocks. You can typically correct the harshness issue for up to 2" increase in the front end by simply extending the lower shock mounts. However, the Aftermarket extended lower shock mounts are too tall to do this this mod correctly. They are so tall that you end up bottoming the shock out when the front end comes down. Their length is long for using with the Cognito UCAs and dont work right for the OEM UCAs.

The best & cheapest solution to do this right is to buy their extended lower shock brackets and make them slightly shorter so they end up being taller than the OEM brackets and shorter than the were from the vendor. The end result is that the shocks' hole in the bracket should end up being about in the middle of where the OEM hole would be and where the aftermarket hole would be. This will allow for more downward droop but also still continuing to allow the shocks to prevent the frame mounted stops from hitting at full droop - inwhich is now well documented of causing premature ball joint failure. Premature ball joint failure is the result of adding the longer shocks which allow this frame mounted stop to hit and halt downward droop.

In stock form, you will see that there is about 1/2" of space between the frame mounted stop and the control arm. Well this 1/2" space equates to much more wheel travel out at the wheel due to the fulcrum (a-arm travel), so this 1/2" travel is more like 1.5-2" at the wheel. It is provides enough room to do this mod and still allow the OEM length shock to catch the UCA from hitting the frame-stop.

Modding the aftermarket's lower shock mounts is easy. All you have to do is drill new holes in them and cut off the extra metal so it wont hit the shocks' body. The cost is only $30 if you buy these from Cognito.

Trust me on this, I have been doing this mod for several years now. You dont have to buy all this stuff the vendors want you to believe.

If you want to further improve the ride quality, after modding the lower shock brackets, you can extend the bump stops using some method of extending them so they touch the lower CAs like they did in factory form. Attaching pic of how we do this.



On this same note, if you want to go beyond the 2" in the front, then it is justified to add the aftermarket UCAs and limiting straps - to prevent premature ball joint failure.

limiting straps - to prevent premature ball joint failure.

Limiting straps are not necessary with Cognito Upper Control arms. The have have drop stops.
I think unless we see pictures of the front end of this truck, we are all just speculating.

I'm out of town working until Friday. I'll take some pics when I get home. Thanks for all the help and support everybody!

I'm out of town working until Friday. I'll take some pics when I get home. Thanks for all the help and support everybody!
that will definately help us to diagnose the situation. cognito ucas and some zinc bilsteins will fix you up just right though. contact nick at norcal truck. he is on this site.

I already overspent my budget on this truck by several thousand. I think if I tell my wife I need another $1000 to make it ride right, when the other option is to lower it back down for free, she may cut my nuts right off.......... I guess that's my problem to sort out. I'd rather keep it up higher, even if I have to sneak some parts into it behind her back. :D

When I get home to get the pics, what specifically do you want pics of? CV angle? Amount of adjustment left in the keys? Distance to bumpstops?

Several things of what people are telling you here, are not a must-have item. The ball joints dont max out with the OEM UCAs. You don't need Cognito UCAs with only 2" lift in front. You don't neccessarily need longer shocks. You can typically correct the harshness issue for up to 2" increase in the front end by simply extending the lower shock mounts. However, the Aftermarket extended lower shock mounts are too tall to do this this mod correctly. They are so tall that you end up bottoming the shock out when the front end comes down. Their length is long for using with the Cognito UCAs and dont work right for the OEM UCAs.

The best & cheapest solution to do this right is to buy their extended lower shock brackets and make them slightly shorter so they end up being taller than the OEM brackets and shorter than the were from the vendor. The end result is that the shocks' hole in the bracket should end up being about in the middle of where the OEM hole would be and where the aftermarket hole would be. This will allow for more downward droop but also still continuing to allow the shocks to prevent the frame mounted stops from hitting at full droop - inwhich is now well documented of causing premature ball joint failure. Premature ball joint failure is the result of adding the longer shocks which allow this frame mounted stop to hit and halt downward droop.

In stock form, you will see that there is about 1/2" of space between the frame mounted stop and the control arm. Well this 1/2" space equates to much more wheel travel out at the wheel due to the fulcrum (a-arm travel), so this 1/2" travel is more like 1.5-2" at the wheel. It is provides enough room to do this mod and still allow the OEM length shock to catch the UCA from hitting the frame-stop.

Modding the aftermarket's lower shock mounts is easy. All you have to do is drill new holes in them and cut off the extra metal so it wont hit the shocks' body. The cost is only $30 if you buy these from Cognito.

Trust me on this, I have been doing this mod for several years now. You dont have to buy all this stuff the vendors want you to believe.

If you want to further improve the ride quality, after modding the lower shock brackets, you can extend the bump stops using some method of extending them so they touch the lower CAs like they did in factory form. Attaching pic of how we do this.



On this same note, if you want to go beyond the 2" in the front, then it is justified to add the aftermarket UCAs and limiting straps - to prevent premature ball joint failure.

I'm not a vendor and I strongly believe in doing things right the first time. You really don't need to buy anything if you don't want but...........it is the cause of the 2" level not riding good.

The main thing is that the OEM shock really really suck. Try a set of bilsiens or good quality shocks and you will take all that info back. If you need to even loosen the bolts to those OEM shocks.....they need to go strait into the trash! Just push them down against the ground and do the same to a good shock.....you will see what I'm talking about.

For the UCA's, it is a harsh angle and the oem arms are not designed to be working in that range.

Do it right the first time.

I rode with my factory torsion bars turned up for a while. I now have the Cognito leveling kit. Ride is night and day different. You can replace the shocks with longer ones but with green keys turned up, i'd bet your upper control arms are already almost touching the bump stops. With that said, I understand, you gotta do whats best for the bank account. Good luck.

If you can't afford the upgrade now, wait until you can because eventually you will upgrade so why pay for an alignment twice.

You can get everything from Cognito direct too, their customer service is very very good too. Always answering question etc....

Limiting straps are not necessary with Cognito Upper Control arms. The have have drop stops.
I think unless we see pictures of the front end of this truck, we are all just speculating.

Yeah well you might want to get up to date on this issue because according to Cognito - you need the limiting straps for this very same reason

Yeah well you might want to get up to date on this issue because according to Cognito - you need the limiting straps for this very same reason

Not part of the directions. Why would you need limiting straps of the drop stop and compression stops are in place? Help me get up to date.

http://www.cognitomotorsports.com/pdf/7012.pdf

Yeah well you might want to get up to date on this issue because according to Cognito - you need the limiting straps for this very same reason

You must be referring to this on the Cognito web site. I don't believe that these are required for the leveling kit, especially since the lower control arms aren't touch during the installation.

"Your GM 8-Lug vehicle is known to have a front bushing problem in the lower control arm. To prevent this problem from causing more problems further down the road, we request that the problem be fixed now. It will cause problems on some lift systems, mainly that use a linkage as our Cognito 4-6" and 10-12" non torsion bar drop lift systems. As shown in figure 1.1, the front bushings work themselves out of the lower control arms. The solution is to press out the front bushing and press it back in from the other direction. Instead of the bushing being pressed in from the front of the truck toward the back, the bushing will be pressed in from the back of the truck toward the front. Perform this task now with the proper tools before assembling the control arms back into the vehicle. As shown in the figure, the bushing flange is on the left. When you are finished swapping the bushing, the flange will be on the right. This will keep proper location of the lower control arm and bushing which will keep proper positioning of the linkage system of this lift kit."

I already overspent my budget on this truck by several thousand. I think if I tell my wife I need another $1000 to make it ride right, when the other option is to lower it back down for free, she may cut my nuts right off.......... I guess that's my problem to sort out. I'd rather keep it up higher, even if I have to sneak some parts into it behind her back. :D

When I get home to get the pics, what specifically do you want pics of? CV angle? Amount of adjustment left in the keys? Distance to bumpstops?

As stated already by other members, some that have been in the same boat as you. Pics will really help us base a better judgment on where you are sitting and better refer you to the proper upgrades to best see results without spending more than you need at this point.

The specific pic that will show us alot would be just like this pic taken from the drives side from the cab looking at the back side of the front suspension area:

http://www.norcaltruck.com/01_misc_pic/tech/hd_front_OEsuspension.jpg



Wrong. You can't increase/decrease the spring rate of a torsion bar - they're linear. What you can do however, is adjust the angle at which they work. IE: Cranking your torsion bars. However, they will feel stiffer because of the new angles your front end will be working with.

This would be right....

Cranking the T bars is the same thing as adding keys, this does not increase the spring rate. What is happening when you crank the bars is a few things; #1:The stock shocks top out on themselves at downward wheel travel because they are not long enough.
#2: the uca ball joints are maxed out on downward travel.
#3: the uca bumpstop hits the framestop before the uca even has a chance to use more downward travel.
#4: the wheels get pulled in at a bad angle because the length of the uca's are not designed to work in a leveling application.

These are a lot of bad things happening all together and making a terrible ride, it is easily confused with it being a "stiffer" ride. It's not the T bars making it stiff.

Cognito UCA's are designed to correct all of these things. They feature longer geometry , ball joints placed at the correct angle and a relocated bump stop.

These UCA's are a 100% necessity to do a leveling kit on these trucks. The ride quality with these and some good shocks.......It is like night and day compared to stock. Feels like you are flying it's so smooth.

Wow you really did your research and nailed it in this post. Good job.



Several things of what people are telling you here, are not a must-have item. The ball joints dont max out with the OEM UCAs. You don't need Cognito UCAs with only 2" lift in front. You don't neccessarily need longer shocks. You can typically correct the harshness issue for up to 2" increase in the front end by simply extending the lower shock mounts. However, the Aftermarket extended lower shock mounts are too tall to do this this mod correctly. They are so tall that you end up bottoming the shock out when the front end comes down. Their length is long for using with the Cognito UCAs and dont work right for the OEM UCAs.

The best & cheapest solution to do this right is to buy their extended lower shock brackets and make them slightly shorter so they end up being taller than the OEM brackets and shorter than the were from the vendor. The end result is that the shocks' hole in the bracket should end up being about in the middle of where the OEM hole would be and where the aftermarket hole would be. This will allow for more downward droop but also still continuing to allow the shocks to prevent the frame mounted stops from hitting at full droop - inwhich is now well documented of causing premature ball joint failure. Premature ball joint failure is the result of adding the longer shocks which allow this frame mounted stop to hit and halt downward droop.

In stock form, you will see that there is about 1/2" of space between the frame mounted stop and the control arm. Well this 1/2" space equates to much more wheel travel out at the wheel due to the fulcrum (a-arm travel), so this 1/2" travel is more like 1.5-2" at the wheel. It is provides enough room to do this mod and still allow the OEM length shock to catch the UCA from hitting the frame-stop.

Modding the aftermarket's lower shock mounts is easy. All you have to do is drill new holes in them and cut off the extra metal so it wont hit the shocks' body. The cost is only $30 if you buy these from Cognito.

Trust me on this, I have been doing this mod for several years now. You dont have to buy all this stuff the vendors want you to believe.

If you want to further improve the ride quality, after modding the lower shock brackets, you can extend the bump stops using some method of extending them so they touch the lower CAs like they did in factory form. Attaching pic of how we do this.



On this same note, if you want to go beyond the 2" in the front, then it is justified to add the aftermarket UCAs and limiting straps - to prevent premature ball joint failure.


There are plenty of cheap fixes but before ruling out needing some after market product we would need to see where he is at in his travel and see the concentrated reasons of ride issue's. Like your self that has this same Cognito product on his own truck it serves a purpose and really it just comes down to what you may need to fix the self in-flicked issue or the way you ruse your personal truck. Once we see how his truck suspension looks a better call on what he needs will be clear as day.



Limiting straps are not necessary with Cognito Upper Control arms. The have have drop stops.
I think unless we see pictures of the front end of this truck, we are all just speculating.

Yeah well you might want to get up to date on this issue because according to Cognito - you need the limiting straps for this very same reason

Not part of the directions. Why would you need limiting straps of the drop stop and compression stops are in place? Help me get up to date.

http://www.cognitomotorsports.com/pdf/7012.pdf


Limit straps are a NEW upgraded offered from Cognito for the guys that are pushing the limits of there suspension and wanting to reduce the upper ball joint wear. Some trucks see more locked out extended travel and when at full lock out the ball joint take all the torsion bar load thus putting alot of force on the joint and increasing wear. For a daily driver with tires and wheels within Cognito's UCA spec's it is not a must but also not a bad upgrade. If you are on the larger tire spec and doing more off road and seeing full travel more than normal driving then the limit strap upgrade is highly recommended for longer life. Anything to decrease stress, off set it or move it to a point that can better take the abuse will help for longer front end life.



Alot of great info here, now lets see where this members front end is so we can base a better call on what will help him for a better ride.:thumb:

Duratime, Nick already explained it pretty good. Basically, anytime your suspension allows the frame mounted stops to hit (instead of the shocks catching everything like they did in OEM form)- the upper ball joints are taking a beating because all of that weight is pulling down on the joint at that point. As Nick pointed out - it's worse when you go offroad. I lost a uni-ball balljoint with only 1 week of wheeling in Moab due to this. It completely wore out the 1" steel ball so bad that it almost fell out.

Hate to mention but.....as well, if you level the truck and take er off road, you should replace the OEM tie rods and install pitman idler braces at the least. Absorb it as a "safety" issue to do that upgrade.

Replace the OEM tie rods with stronger ones? Is it because they are at an increased operating angle with the front raised?

Replace the OEM tie rods with stronger ones? Is it because they are at an increased operating angle with the front raised?


That and leverage from the larger tire and wheel combo.

yep basicly everything i said new uca's shocks and if you want to RACE you need bigger tie rods :D

Replace the OEM tie rods with stronger ones? Is it because they are at an increased operating angle with the front raised?

Read this, here (http://www.hdiesel.com/product.asp?id=142).

Thank you.

Here are pics of my truck. What does everybody recommend I do to fix the problem? I can handle shocks and lowering it down an inch or so, but I REALLY don't want to buy new UCAs.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/knaffie/06%202500HD%204x4%20LBZ/0219001404.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/knaffie/06%202500HD%204x4%20LBZ/downsized_0219001403-1.jpg

I would try longer shocks first. Get a good set of Bilsteins. Get ones that you could use with the Cognito level kit if you decide to go that way down the line. I think you could also get a longer shock mount instead, but I would go with the Bilsteins. Call Nick and Nor-Cal, he'll get you dialed. Make sure that your tires are at the lowest pressure needed to handle the load also, that makes a big difference I have found. It doesn't look to me to be over cranked in those photos. Good luck. Let us know what worked for you.

Here are pics of my truck. What does everybody recommend I do to fix the problem? I can handle shocks and lowering it down an inch or so, but I REALLY don't want to buy new UCAs.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/knaffie/06%202500HD%204x4%20LBZ/0219001404.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/knaffie/06%202500HD%204x4%20LBZ/downsized_0219001403-1.jpg

Yep, that set up will ride brutal. At the least you need longer shocks, but you really should do it all right if you want to be off roading.

Check out those tie rods!:lol: They are like tooth pics.

I let it down 10 turns on each side. Went from almost all the way up to almost all the way down on the adjuster bolts. The ride is night and day different. And my tires are not rubbing. Might just leave it at this height until I decide to go to a 285.

I'm thinking of still ordering the Bilsteins anyway.

Thanks for the tip about tire pressure - I forgot about that. What are people running in their load range E tires when not towing?

I let it down 10 turns on each side. Went from almost all the way up to almost all the way down on the adjuster bolts. The ride is night and day different. And my tires are not rubbing. Might just leave it at this height until I decide to go to a 285.

I'm thinking of still ordering the Bilsteins anyway.

Thanks for the tip about tire pressure - I forgot about that. What are people running in their load range E tires when not towing?

Make sure to get it re-aligned after letting it down that much.

If you want 285's, strongly consider a Cognito 4-6 NTBD with just the basic options. But a Cognito Leveling kit will work too. Either way, talk to Nor-Cal Nick :cool:

For 285's you need to raise it 2" or more, to do that properly you need the UCA's, shocks, and strongly recommending steering upgrades. Well worth every penny.

I let it down 10 turns on each side. Went from almost all the way up to almost all the way down on the adjuster bolts. The ride is night and day different. And my tires are not rubbing. Might just leave it at this height until I decide to go to a 285.

I'm thinking of still ordering the Bilsteins anyway.

Thanks for the tip about tire pressure - I forgot about that. What are people running in their load range E tires when not towing?

Turning it down plus adding longer Bilsteins (stockers are not only trash they're too short) will work great, no wonder your current ride was terrible. search posts by lmm_guy, he's posted a lot of detailed info on front ends.

Thanks for posting about this Chris, Im about to put some 285's on my truck and was wondering what the ride would be like and if i was going to need shocks.

Im only going to crank 1 1/2 to 2 inches max then will do some tasteful trimming to get the tires to clear.