I talked to an Amsoil dealer a couple days ago. We had a long discussion about oils. He told me that some of the Amsoil base stock has gone hydrocracked, specifically the 5w-20 synthetic for gassers. He said they did this because of the Supreme Court case (Castrol vs. Mobil) where hydrocracked was determined to be a “synthetic”. However, he stated that the 15w-40 synthetic diesel oil is still mainly a Class 4 PAO (I think it still contains some Esters)

For what it’s worth, I understand there are a couple different classes

Class 2: Regular petroleum based lubrication
Class 3: Hydrocracked
Class 4: Polyalphaolefins (PAO)
Class 5: Esters

As I understand it (and taking a great simplification): Class 3 is better than 2; Class 4 is better than 3; and Class 5 is better than 4.

I understand that the Amsoil Torque-Drive, 15W-40 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel & Marine Motor Oil and others remain mainly PAO’s.

Can somebody shed some light on this for me? I want PAO’s and Esters in my vehicles. I don’t want to get a Class 3 that somebody called a synthetic because the Supreme Court says they can.

I’m not trying to start a war here; I just want to know what I am purchasing, whether it is a Class 2, 3, 4 or 5 (seems harder and harder when lawyers get involved:mad: ).

I have read so much about this stuff my head hurts.

I don’t want to get a Class 3 that somebody called a synthetic because the Supreme Court says they can.

got to love the american legal system... that spilled over to canada too... in europe, they can't call the base 3 stuff synthetic...

Chris, I am an Amsoil dealer and I had a long phone conversation the other day with someone on this topic. I note that you list your home as Atlanta, GA. I am in Griffin, 40miles South, and a local phone call. Was it you I spoke with on this?

I have done a bit of research on this and the decision was made in an ad council hearing under the auspices of the Better Business Bureau. Seems Castrol came out with their Syn-Tec line and labelled it as a synthetic when in fact it was/is a petroleum based oil, albeit a group III base stock. This was in 1999.

Mobil filed a complaint, and subsequently a hearing was held on the subject. Castrol presented data to show that the groupIII base, which is a more highly refined base and selected from better grades of crude, was enough different that it was appropriate to rank it substantially above normal oils and OK to advertise it as synthetic. Needless to say, this caused quite a stir in the motor oil industry.

It resulted in several other companies coming out with a groupIII oil labelled as synthetic. As I understand it, it included several major brands, including, but not limited to: Pennzoil and Valvoline. Amsoil joined the crowd in either 02 or 03, and they lowered the price when they did so. This was only on the XL line.

This reformulation was done to remain competetive, pricewise, with the other groupIII oils advertised as synthetic, and only to the XL line. the only other motor oil in the Amsoil line containing any petroleum base is the synthetic blend diesel oil which is labelled as a blend. These are also the only oils in the Amsoil lineup that don't carry the long, extended drain interval.

All the other oils that Amsoil sells are full synthetic, pao,esters,etc, and no petroleum.

Sorry for the novel, but I wanted to get the whole story out, not just bits and pieces. The change was released to the media when it took place.

Yep, more and more companies are jumping on the gpIII "synthetic" bandwagon. At this point synthetic is a marketing term without meaning unless you completely trust the company you buy from. Chevron is even pushing a gp III fake synthetic gear oil now. Wait, don't they make the GM grapejuice...:eek:

Well, synthetic is kind of a generic word anyway. The problem is companies have to dumb down their sales literature so the general public will understand. As a chemist, it annoys the heck out of me to see products listed under general terms such as "synthetic" without really saying what they are. But I understand that if they put polyalphaolefin or ester on the label, the average person isn't going to have a clue. Anything that sounds like a "chemical" is immediately distrusted. Sort of goes back to all the old dihydrogen oxide jokes.

And Castrol sells a crapload of Syntech with much higher profit margins than they'd have with a PAO.

Chris, I am an Amsoil dealer and I had a long phone conversation the other day with someone on this topic. I note that you list your home as Atlanta, GA. I am in Griffin, 40miles South, and a local phone call. Was it you I spoke with on this?



No, not me. Another AMSOIL guy (he had an AMSOIL shirt and was a distributer) I met at my 20 year reunion a thousand miles from Atlanta who shall remain nameless.

But while I got you..What are Amsoils future plans for hydrocracked?

I am planning on continuing to order my 15w-40 Synthetic Marine and Diesel from AMSOIL and get some Torque-Drive for my Allison Tranny..

Are these going to stay POA and/or Di-Esters?

Thanks

:offtopic: dihydrogen oxide
Yeah, they should outlaw that stuff...it is a major component of acid rain. It also is a leading cause of drowning.

Hey, I heard one city in the USA actually took the lead on this critical and very serious issue. They had the GUTS to OUTLAW all dihydrogen oxide in thier city...GOOD FOR THEM!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Chris, I don't believe you'll find Amsoil going any further with dino than they have already.
I don't want to come across as trying to sell Amsoil here on DP as Greg Landuyt was/is here as a sponsoring dealer and it's only fair to him for me to not be in competition for sales here.
However, if all you want is more discussion then send me a pm or email and I'll send you my phone #. We are local call to each other and a phone conversation is much better for me than my hunt and peck typing.

Stick to Mobil 1 and don't worry about getting hydrocracked/hydroisomerized basestock.

They invented syn-lubes, and are the leader.

cit1991, you need to learn whereof you speak before inserting foot in mouth! Amsoil was the FIRST fully synthetic motor oil meeting API specifications to be introduced in the USA in 1972. Mobil 1 came out sometime later, and pulled back on extended drain intervals with guaranteed protection in 1974. Amsoil, then and now, offers a full guarantee on their oils when used as recommended, with the proper filters and intervals of change at extended drain intervals of as much as 35,000 miles.
STRONGLY suggest you visit the corporate web site, www.amsoil.com and do a little research before you again insert foot in mouth. Mobil1 the best? My friend, you need to do a little reading. And remember, what Amsoil says on the web site, they also say in printed advertisements, and print ads are subject to all sorts of truth in advertising laws. :ro)

As an edit: Moil has just recently introduced 3 new oils for extended drain intervals, of the 3 new oils, only one is a pure synthetic.

Wrong. Mobil developed synlubes way before Amsoil existed. They were for stationary and aviation turbines. Where do you think Amsoil got their basestocks in '72? Did they have a refinery I don't know about? Where is their plant that buys ethylene/propylene and makes poly-alpha-olefins? They buy them from a major oil/petrochemical company, and resell them in Amsoil bottles after blending with additives.

When I say Mobil 1, I'm referring to the pure syn product...not the blends which they also make. At least they clearly identify the blends. Amsoil is selling hydroisomerized petroleum as syn oil in the one product line, which puts them in the same category as Castrol.

"Eventually, Amatuzio realized the need to begin with a synthetic basetock and build his ideal lubricant from the ground up. His search led him to Monsanto, Drew Chemical Corporation and Hatco. It was Drew Chemical Corporation in Boonton, New Jersey, where the first polyol esters had been developed and patented in conjunction with Mobil Chemical in 1958. "

The founder of Amsoil was on to a good idea...taking the Mobil synlubes used in his fighter jets and making motor oil from them...but the first API certification hardly means he invented synthetic lubricants. And when he got the rating, Mobil was already working on crankcase oils. Amatuzio just beat them to market while Mobil was still testing their blends.

AMS may make great oil...but they are by far the worst company I've ever dealt with!

Why deal with thier crap when you can get good oil at any auto/super store that's API certified to run in your truck?

DIRTYOLDMAN:the only other motor oil in the Amsoil line containing any petroleum base is the synthetic blend diesel oil which is labelled as a blend. These are also the only oils in the Amsoil lineup that don't carry the long, extended drain interval.


If you check AMS Oil website, you will find that they DO label the "blend" an extended drain interval oil. :eek: I did a search on their website for my duramax and it listed the oils I could use. Each oil was hyperlinked. If you click on the blend hyperlink, it shows the same description for its use as the full 15w-40 synthetic. What gives?:confused: :confused:

Wrong. Mobil developed synlubes way before Amsoil existed. They were for stationary and aviation turbines. Where do you think Amsoil got their basestocks in '72? Did they have a refinery I don't know about? Where is their plant that buys ethylene/propylene and makes poly-alpha-olefins? They buy them from a major oil/petrochemical company, and resell them in Amsoil bottles after blending with additives.

When I say Mobil 1, I'm referring to the pure syn product...not the blends which they also make. At least they clearly identify the blends. Amsoil is selling hydroisomerized petroleum as syn oil in the one product line, which puts them in the same category as Castrol.

"Eventually, Amatuzio realized the need to begin with a synthetic basetock and build his ideal lubricant from the ground up. His search led him to Monsanto, Drew Chemical Corporation and Hatco. It was Drew Chemical Corporation in Boonton, New Jersey, where the first polyol esters had been developed and patented in conjunction with Mobil Chemical in 1958. "

The founder of Amsoil was on to a good idea...taking the Mobil synlubes used in his fighter jets and making motor oil from them...but the first API certification hardly means he invented synthetic lubricants. And when he got the rating, Mobil was already working on crankcase oils. Amatuzio just beat them to market while Mobil was still testing their blends.

Well that may be the case but Mobil doesn't stand up to Amsoil in Big Rigs. Even Cat was amazed by the difference in how the oils held up in their C12 and warrantied the engine with extended drains.

Did everybody forget the Germans invented synthetic engine oil so their tanks would start during the brutal Russian winters in WWII:blahblah:

Wrong. Mobil developed synlubes way before Amsoil existed. They were for stationary and aviation turbines. Where do you think Amsoil got their basestocks in '72? Did they have a refinery I don't know about? Where is their plant that buys ethylene/propylene and makes poly-alpha-olefins? They buy them from a major oil/petrochemical company, and resell them in Amsoil bottles after blending with additives.

When I say Mobil 1, I'm referring to the pure syn product...not the blends which they also make. At least they clearly identify the blends. Amsoil is selling hydroisomerized petroleum as syn oil in the one product line, which puts them in the same category as Castrol.

"Eventually, Amatuzio realized the need to begin with a synthetic basetock and build his ideal lubricant from the ground up. His search led him to Monsanto, Drew Chemical Corporation and Hatco. It was Drew Chemical Corporation in Boonton, New Jersey, where the first polyol esters had been developed and patented in conjunction with Mobil Chemical in 1958. "

The founder of Amsoil was on to a good idea...taking the Mobil synlubes used in his fighter jets and making motor oil from them...but the first API certification hardly means he invented synthetic lubricants. And when he got the rating, Mobil was already working on crankcase oils. Amatuzio just beat them to market while Mobil was still testing their blends.


Go ahead and keep giving your money to the BIG oil companies that make you pay nearly $3 per gallon for diesel fuel. Not me. It's like voting for someone cause the candidate you really want to win doesn't have a chance anyway. Where would synthetics be without Amsoil? Without competition where would you be? Probably driving a POS Dodge. Everyone deserves their own opinion and thats mine. Enjoy your BIG OIL CO. Amsoil here.

:rant:

Go ahead and keep giving your money to the BIG oil companies that make you pay nearly $3 per gallon for diesel fuel. Not me. It's like voting for someone cause the candidate you really want to win doesn't have a chance anyway. Where would synthetics be without Amsoil? Without competition where would you be? Probably driving a POS Dodge. Everyone deserves their own opinion and thats mine. Enjoy your BIG OIL CO. Amsoil here.

:rant:

Do you think Amsoil would be any different if they were as large as Mobil? It's the nature of the big business to just want to make more money and Amsoil would be doing the same.