Bosch has announce the closing of their diesel fuel injector plant in Grand Rapids, MI and is moving production to Brazil. This is only one year after they took full ownership from Penske.


Anyone think this will improve injector quality?

I think it will be irrelevant .... What is sad is more lost jobs for the US economy....... The hemorrhaging best stop soon or we're in big trouble ....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

Didn't know they were in Grand Rapids. That's an area where the injectors can be had at a more reasonable price.


Wonder if ALL Bosch injector production for all brands came from there?

I think it will be irrelevant .... What is sad is more lost jobs for the US economy....... The hemorrhaging best stop soon or we're in big trouble ....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif








Thats the sad truth! When are we going to wake up and do something about this? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

I agree this is sad but, what can we really do? It is not like we can refuse to buy the product. Trust me, I used to work in a Harley shop as a mechanic when I was in college. Go to their parts room and pick up some parts and tell me how much of that bike is really made in the US. Not much of anything seems to be made here anymorehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

Other than the loss of jobs the good news is the injectors should be cheaper as a result. The reason jobs are being lost overseas is the cost of production is less. So much less that they can afford to ship the product and still produce it cheaper. Quality is an issue that can be transferred anywhere if they do it right.


Carrier just announced the closing of their plant in Syracuse, NY, loss of 1500 jobs, everything is moving to Singapore in a new fully automated factory. The Syracuse plant has been there for 100 years.


It's a global economy now, goods are produced anywhere in the world and shipped in for consumers. Consumers need to find other lines of work, manufacturing is going to be lost in the USA due to high cost of materials and labor. It's bad, but gonna keep happening.


Funny aspect is it is happening overseas as well, Used to get stuff from Japan and Korea, but as the cost of living increased in those countries the manufacturers kept moving to lower cost countries like Indonesia, India, South America, Mexico etc. Now it's China that is growing fast and taking in most of the manufacturing processes, eventually their standard of living will increase and the process will keep moving, maybe it will come full circle and back to the USA when the rest of the world catches up to our standard of living (or we sink to theirs).


At some point in the process if everyone survives without fighting over raw materials, everyone in the world will be equal and have the same standard of living and then what do we do? Not in my lifetime, but eventually it will happen unless we destroy each other. One thing I know is my DMAX will still be around and running strong! LOL ha ha ha


Have a nice day!

....or we sink to theirs...


Thats the harsh reality.





What we need to do is get our leaders to act and impose monster tarriffs. Ya, stuff will cost more, but people will have jobs to pay for it too..


I know. Its a lost cause. Nafta etc. etc.

I hope the overseas outsourcing comes back to bite every company doing it in the a#%. If US companies keep it up it will only be a matter of time as everyone in the US will be jobless and have no money to buy anything! Should be a freakin law againt it.

I've been involved with 3 companies that have moved manufacturing operations to Singapore.

In none of those three cases did it have anything to do with the cost of labor. Less than 8% of the cost of our product is direct labor. Having taxes eat up more than 30% of our earnings in the U.S. was a much bigger expense. The Singaporean government enticed us with very favorable tax incentives.

Makes me wonder about the wisdom of taxing business in general. I mean, do businesses really pay taxes? Or do they just pass them along in the form of higher prices for products and services? What do taxes do to the competitiveness of American businesses?

Every time I hear some politician talk about "corporate welfare" I think about this.

tophog your truck is sharp. I looked at your truck at your site. Where did you get the lights for your running boards. I have the Bully bars and I think the lights might look goods glowing off the stainless steel (chrome) I am sure those are not the parts house typical runnig board lights.

Carrier just announced the closing of their plant in Syracuse, NY, loss of 1500 jobs, everything is moving to Singapore in a new fully automated factory. The Syracuse plant has been there for 100 years.





I had no idea... that's sad. I remember when I was in Syracuse back in the mid 90's I was amazed at how big the Carrier plant was.


I have to believe that part of the blame for the movement of manufacturing jobs goes to the high cost associated with the unions, the wages and benefits they force employers to pay, and the corruption that reaps inside. It's a vicious cycle.. (but I don't want to get into politics).

Manufacturing is the backbone of every economy .... If we don't produce a durable good and attempt an economy based on retail, food services or dry cleaning and assembly there will be No America as we know it today ...


We are domed that is the harsh reality ....


As people continue to lose jobs our quality of life and standards suffer .... I have to ask what jobs out there will support a family with the cost of health and well being ?? If there are so many jobs why is the unemployment so high and people fear the lose of there present job ??


What has put us in this position is the fastest growing industry today in the US ,the government .... Taxes are at an all time high as people in government whether federal to local aren't at the same standard as the average tax paying citizen ....


Local municipalities and state government run on a blank check policy and isn't ran like a true business like I have to ,every thing must balance .... This leads to astronomical taxes ....That leads to business relocating thru out the US and globally eventual ...


We're in trouble people, something needs to be done ....


Don't sit back and say what can I do ....


Speak out and most important vote in every election it's your constitutional right ....


Lok at the candidates views and platform ...


Global economy fine but it must be balanced .....


Mac

This thread has taken an interesting twist and I thought I'd chime in. There have been many good points made in this discussion. It is extremely upsetting to me to read the paper daily and see the U.S. loosing jobs to overseas manufacturing facilities. The sad part is many of us have funds invested (401k etc.) in the very companies which are sending work overseas.


In the big picture I don't think this is going to change for a long time. Our elected leaders are pushing it. I just wonder, when the majority of the population is earning minimum wages, who is going to pay the taxes and buy Duramaxes?


My children are at a point in their life where they are choosing their future occupation--I encourage them to seek jobs which cannot be exported. I've worked in the steel industry for 27 years and I know my days are numbered. What is happening to our country is very sad indeed.

Yes our situation is sad but predictable. We're only following the route of every superpower that's ever exsisted. We're in the military cycle right now........over spending and thats what will get us in the end. Our little French leader long ago did the same thing. Our planet will not support all this anyway. Enjoy it while you can.

Exporting jobs is a dirty little secret that companies don't talk about. Just about every company I've worked for funneled jobs overseas. And it's not just blue-color jobs, its all engineering fields minus civil, manufacturing jobs, management jobs, and even some law jobs.


The recent economic downturn was a blessing in disguise to these companies by replacing well paying jobs for a fraction of the cost. Many of these benefitting countries have no EPA, no healthcare, no unions, no retirement plans, etc. Is it a coincidence that this is a jobless recovery? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Bosch injectors are made in my back yard?? and I didnt even know it? Sheesh, wake up dmaxalliTechhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

I feel your pain guys, we vendor stuff out where I work and then act suprised when we have quality problems. BTW, don't worry Topgas the Lord's comming back long before this planet gives up.

Tax reductions help out economy in many ways. You guys have just discussed one that is major on the business level. Funny how reducing taxes is an incentive for business which prospers and generates greater tax revenue, albeit at the reduced levels.


Interesting how Russia now has a flat tax ala Steve Forbes and we have a graduated tax ala Karl Marx.

Chevys,

The major reason for the exports is corporate profitability. That money doesn't easily find it's way back to us but more often goes to corporate bonuses, buying up other corporate assets, dividends, etc. Sad but true.

Bob

any company that has moved out of the states is only in it for themselfs,products are not cheeper only harder to get parts for .this has been going on in farming ever since nafta.the only change to consumers is if its not grown here you may get sick,dont let the u.s.d.a. sticker fool you,they might chech 1 load out of 100 get the results back in two weeks , by then the produce is at its final resting place after your done eating the unregulated chemicalshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif

Think about this for a minute...


I *used* to think that high tech jobs would really be the answer. For example, I work for a Dow 30 company and we have such computer infrastructure needs that a small plant of 100 people can chew up 2-3 IT guys working on computers 100% of the time. We can attribute a lot of that to Mr. Gates, but that's for another day.


Well, my company a couple of years ago sh*tcanned all the IT guys and subcontracted the onsite work to an outside vendor. Now that sucked, but the net americansworking stayed roughly the same.


HOWEVER, the first thing you have to do before you can get said IT guy to even touch your computer, is to call the Help Desk. And as you know, you get some folks with odd dialects and broken english, etc. I originally thought, well hey, this is a $8/hr job, they can't hire geniuses for that, yadda yadda yadda.


Oh, how mistaken I was. The Help Desk is in India. Yeah, that's right, halfway around the earth, no sh*t.


So so sum the whole thing up, anything that can be farmed out, will be. Like all simple manufacturing. The automation levels are getting so high that quite literally anyone with basic smarts can make complex and expensive machines. And so you have the growth of China, Singapore, etc., and the list goes on. And I'm not being condescending at all about those folks, they have come a heck of a long way in the last 20 years.


So what will be left? Services that can't be farmed out, like health care and working on your car. Shipping your Dmax to Brazil to get new injectors ain't gonna happen. And you can't go to Singapore to eat dinner. The services you need right here right now in a fixed location, those things will stay. (I can, however, imagine plugging your car into an ethernet connection so that an Indian mechanic can scan it for problems, but let's hold that thought for now).


Here is one maybe provocative thing I will throw out for discussion. One thing I do know about the folks from China and India that I have met at college, is that they work unbelievably hard. And a lot of times, they work for virtually nothing. They seemingly have limitless patience and humility in achieving their goals. The guys I knew were so happy to be here that they would do anything short of bodily mutilation just to keep their education going.


A lot of Americans would scoff at the wages that foreigners make, and many won't even work rather than make $8/hr.


Bottom line, foreign competition is very hungry. I would suggest they're even hungrier than we are, and that worries me. So many Americans have lulled into a foolish state of entitlement that could be yanked out from under them in a heartbeat. It is sad, but if we fail to pay attention to what the truth is, we are foolish and shouldn't expect sympathy. The capitalist system we praise so much is biting us in the arse.


I do agree that the playing table isn't fair, but does it matter? Cry all we want, it isn't going to change the fact that I have to pay $1.00 a gallon to have my neutralized lab waste hauled away to a certified landfill with a thousand pages of documentation, while in China, it goes straight into the Yangtze. Politics is an awfully messy and usually ineffective way of leveling the field, but I suppose we'll have to use it sooner or later.


I know, I know, that's all depressing and I don't have all the answers. What I do know, is that I'm an engineer, which I was told at the time would be a fantastic living, and here I am ten years later, and I have a target on my back all the time.


And the main reason I wrote this diatribe is that I have two daughters, ages 4 and 1, and I'm scratching my head figuring out what kind of world situation they're gonna grow up into. And I worry about that. I can shovel poop if I have to, but I don't want them to.


OK, I'm tired now.....Mat, out.

Mat,


I appreciate what you are saying-let us only hope that when things get tough the true American spirit will show itself and some strong leaders will appear in the future. Maybe that four year old daughter of yours will be one of them.


I know one thing for sure, life is way too short to worry too much and I thank my lucky stars that I can wake up each day and feel good to be alive and able to mash down on the pedel.Edited by: steeltech

And you guys wonder why I'd rather burn my truck to the ground than trade it for an import if faced with the decision. I'd rather burn myself to the ground than drive an import! I really hate the way things have gone. The real crapper is that all this happens because people let it and it's all retroactive. People started buying crap from Japan, they took all the money and the feedback that it was crap and bettered themselves. People here then would buy their stuff because it was cheap then you get the paradigm shift from expensive crap to cheap and good. Then things really got going and the money flowing, right to Japan... They started hiring engineers from here and paying them more to design something better that can be made there for less. To compete companies here started having things made elsewhere... people lose there jobs and end up only being able to afford import cars...import car companies get richer and expand...and so on. All these decisions made by rich business people who only get richer.
The real kicker is that some these import companies make themselves look good by building cars here and most don't see through the smoke. They make a few jobs here, but where does the bulk of the money go..not here..over there...nice trick!
I really hate that it's hard to buy anything made here anymore...
I don't see a happy ending to this...it's only a matter of time before they get into their last frontier... heavy duty pick ups!
This model year starts something interesting for the half tons...a game of three on three if you will...
Playing for the home team: Ford F150
GMC Sierra 1500 and
Chevy Silverado 1500

Playing for the visitors: Nissan Titan
Toyota Tundra and
Daimler's Dodge Ram 1500

We all know the home team has the advantage of the numbers, but will we keep it...I hope so...

As I'm sure you can see I have very strong feelings about this. A very sad fact I'm faced with is I'm the only one in my family with these feelings and I'm the only one who owns American cars. The only time they regret it is when they talk to me about cars, or they're walking to my house. That's right walking, ya don't park that crap in my driveway and ya don't park it in front of my house!

I didn't didn't swear to support and defend the constitution of this great nation so that I could take my pay and betray it and my fellow countrymen by paying the wages of their overseas competition. I wish every person buying an Import car had to burn a flag while being taped while they did and then be made to watch it every time they get in it so that they can see the statement they're really making...

Sorry it's so long it just really fires me up!

Ox

Steeltech wrote:


I know one thing for sure, life is way too short to worry too much and I thank my lucky stars that I can wake up each day and feel good to be alive and able to mash down on the pedel.


Amen to that, brother!

Well I agree guys, worrying is a waste of time. But it's that worry that compels me to do something, like getting my future at least somewhat figured out. Mashing the pedal is fun, and I whooped 'er good tonight!


I like what Moto Head said. If God decided the rapture was tonight, that'd be just fine with me.


BlueOx3, man, you've hit the nail on the head. It really bothers me that people so easily disconnect their constitutions from their wallets. If losing American jobs makes you feel sad, then you should, at least to some extent, see the cash register receipt from Wal-Mart as layoff notices for your brothers.


That's an overblown example made for emphasis. But only you control your wallet and which businesses and economies you choose to support.


Blue, I think you've got great passion and if your purchases reflect your character, that's great. But you're probably a 1%er. And sadly there is no way to put the proverbial toothpaste back into the tube. Globalization is a done deal. All we can do now is to make plans of how to deal with that truth.


Education is one of the answers.


Oy, I gotta go to bed. Mat, out.

It is of interest that I've seen more than a few people on truck and car boards complain about the cost of new vehicles, but also complain that jobs are going overseas. Oh well.


The US worker has the highest productivity in the WORLD. Nope, not Japan, nor Germany, the good old USA.


In US manufacturing there are many costs, labor isn't the highest. Typically first comes materials, then capital, then taxes, then wages. Now if a US company ain't saving much on the wages, then why go overseas?


Like said above, taxes are fairly high in the US, but not as high as Europe. But they are much higher for businesses here than South America or the Pacific Rim. Materials are commodities now, they cost about the same worldwide (if taxes don't adjust them). It's the cost of capital. Land, buildings, heavy equipment, interest on working capital, all favor the developing nations. And in countries with dirt cheap labor (China), you can replace equipment with labor. Why buy a $250,000 bulldozer, when you can hire 250 Chinese laborers cheaper?


American companies should strive to develop a business structure here than reduces the advantage that the 3rd countries have. But they often look at things qtr by qtr than long term. Time for our elected officials to do their job, and help the US instead of themselves.

McRat, yes, you're right. Along with the low labor costs, as you mention, these folks generally have a much longer term outlooks and will sacrifice years in order to build a big business. That's one of the ways the Japanese took over TV set manufacture.


One other aspect that's been touched on above but not highlighted, and should be (IMHO), is the cost of labor. Above someone mentioned that labor is something like 8% of a particular product's cost.


Some folks might think 8% ain't much. But it is. Wally Mart makes much less than that on a lot of products. When you turn over 246 Billion, and their stated profit margin of 3.5%, then I think the 8% savings on a product could look awfully attractive. Add in all the capital stuff, and it's a pretty compelling package. If I were their CEO and my only goal was to make money, I'd have to do it.


Most of you, if you can post here, probably have a hard disc drive in your computer. The complexity and technical advancement of the device is astonishing. I used to make materials for the guts of them, and worked with several of the biggest HD firms. To get such a device for $89 blows me away....all made possible by building them in Singapore. I'm not sure, but I don't think you can buy an American-made, American built consumer hard drive.


Interesting times. Regards, Mat

The dirty little secret is out. Here's today's story: "Tech firms defend sending jobs overseas"...


http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040107/technology_jobs_28.html

THE SHAME IN ALL THIS IS THE DEMOCRAPS ARE TRYING TO CHASTIZE OUR GREAT PREZ FOR ALLOWING ALIENS RESIDENCY IF THEY ARE WORKING. CAN THEY NOT SEE THAT HE IS DOING WHAT HE CAN TO KEEP THE COMPANIES HERE BY AFFORDING THESE COMPANIES PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO WORK FOR LESSOR SALARIES. WHAT IS BAD IS ALL THESE PEOPLE COLLECTING WELFARE INSTEAD OF ACTUALLY EARNING THE MONEY THAT THEY GET. ONLY MY OPINION.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/3ED_lousypink.jpg

Welfare has nothing to do with our real problems,I love how these people are used as a scapegoat. Sting had it right when he sang about our "troubled evolution". Don't think for a minute that Bush isn't in it for himself and his cronnies just like the Democrats. I think our biggest asset is our creativity and our free market economy. We'll be fine, just have to live with alittle less and work a little harder as time goes by. In the end the rest of the world needs us and we need them. I agree that we don't need to buy Jap trucks when our own country produces the kind of trucks we're getting.

All I am saying, I am a business owner that deals with a lot of people that are less fortunate. There are alot of people who would rather not work a hard job and collect welfare than earn a living honestly. The immagrants that are so called taking our jobs are the people who are willing to work for a living instead of mooching of our great system. Atleats the money is staying the the US economy instead of foriegn countries.Edited by: noproblem

Our free market economy is what has led to outsourcing US jobs to overseas countries. Regardless of how hard I try I can't see where this is beneficial to the US at all (I'm convinced it's not) ... except for the corporations themselves. Corps can't use the excuse they can't find good/skilled/technical US labor. The fact of the matter is we have some of, if not the best technically skilled people in the world, but US companies don't want to pay for it ... so they go looking for "free" or "cheap" labor and the closest they can find is outsourced labor in other countries.


I may be wrong, however IMO the US needs to stop worry so much about carrying for the rest of the world so much and concentrate on taking care of the US a little more. Protect our borders? IMO, close them.

Really guys isolationism has been tried and has failed. Globalization is already here and is growing buy leaps and bounds. It will not be long before we are all on an equal playing field. The hardest/smartest or most imoral workers will win. Maybe our kids will be the ones working for 1 dollar per hour in a sweat shop. We could just bomb everybody? Edited by: Bronco

Above someone mentioned that labor is something like 8% of a particular product's cost.


Some folks might think 8% ain't much. But it is. Wally Mart makes much less than that on a lot of products. When you turn over 246 Billion, and their stated profit margin of 3.5%, then I think the 8% savings on a product could look awfully attractive.


It would only be an 8% savings if the labor cost in Singapore was zero. In fact, the direct labor cost in Singapore was actually very close to what we were paying in the U.S. The savings on labor amounted to less than 1% in terms of product cost. The savings on taxes was huge by comparison.

This is just in my business. I don't doubt that in other businesses there are cases where the labor cost is a bigger factor. My point was simply that there are other factors that can be larger than the cost of labor. The tax system in this country in particular makes it difficult for manufacturers to compete in the global marketplace.

I can't fault those companies for doing what they did. The alternative was to be uncompetitive and shut down. Who does that help?

It will not be long before we are all on an equal playing field. The hardest/smartest or most imoral workers will win. Maybe our kids will be the ones working for 1 dollar per hour in a sweat shop.


That doesn't particular sound very enticing to me. I don't think the smartest or hardest working workers will win ... the ones willing to work for the lowest dollar will ...that's why US companies are outsourcing now.


Do I want my kid working for $1 in a sweat shop? No. I don't think others do either. I think bombing is a tad extreme. The US Government is the root of the problem. Things need to change govermentally so US companies can keep manufacturing and services in the US and US workers employed. Companies that opt to go overseas for employment/services should be penalized.

If you penalize those companies, they just go under. They have to compete against other companies overseas. What we have to do is create an environment where they can operate here and be competitive.

If you penalize those companies, they just go under. They have to compete against other companies overseas. What we have to do is create an environment where they can operate here and be competitive.


If they go under, is that really any worse then having a US based company with no US workers? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif I agree 100% with creating an environment here where they can operate here (if it means no outsourcing overseas) and be competitive.Edited by: tophog

It would help to allow businesses to deduct instead of depreciate capital equipment. And 100% deduction on R&D like Japan.

Tophog,


I am just playing. Everything I know about economics/politics has ben stated somewhere in this thread. I really can't even start to propose a solution. I do think Bush is on to something wiht his latest bout of dimentia. He is stressing the idea of iliminating our huge work pool of undocumented workers. I say if you can't keep them out, they might as well pay taxes like the rest of us.

amen

If they go under, is that really any worse then having a US based company with no US workers? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


Although it would never happen, the best case scenario for the US would be to emulate Saudi Arabia's economy where citizens don't work but natural resources are in worldwide demand. In this case, the natural resource would need to be US businesses (I know, yea right!) and US citizens would need to invest heavily in those successful businesses.


US companies are always looking for unfair advantages, whether sending jobs overseas or moving offshore to avoid taxes.

Another interesting headline today ... I'm off my soapbox today. I too am no political/economic expert and don't have enough knowledge to determine what will work and what won't. Obviously the government doesn't either. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif I just cringe when I see US jobs going overseas. Over the last 6 months I have been actively involved in setting up and supporting new software development efforts in India, of which "used" to occur in my office. Sad and disturbing.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1804&ncid=1804&e=3&u=/washpost/20040108/tc_washpost/a63380_2004jan7

That's a heart-breaker. I interveiwed for an Motorola s/w management job monitoring s/w engineers in India 4 or 5 years ago. Lots of great opportunity to travel, and converse daily with interesting people at all hours of the early am. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

These forums are great. You don't have to be an expert on any topic, just willing to swap info and ideas. It's funny, after awhile your point of view can change, it's a different world when you your empowered with knowledge. I have great faith in the American system, it's worked well for a long time and has proven itself. We can't forget that there's been alot of suffering along the way for alot of people to get here and they'll be more as we go. Things are happening very fast compared with the past, you gotta be on your game.

Good discussion, guys. A couple more thoughts:


1) Globalization, IMHO, is a done deal and no political moves (short of the bombs, of course) is going to change that. Even if we do make some moves, the global economy reacts swiftly with punches of their own. No one can legislate what China should do. And no one can change the fact that companies can hire 4 smart Indian engineers for the price of one American engineer.


1a) Anytime someone says "the government should do something about it" needs to think twice. Governmental "band aids" are just that. We need to work on the root cause. The government acts too slowly and ineffectively anyway.


2) I see two things we can do simply: a) lower the corporate tax structure like many have stated; and b) personally become more educated and productive.


3) one unmentioned aspect: companies are looking overseas NOT JUST TO enhance the profit margin. They want to sell there. And especially in Asia, people are patriotic/nationalistic and prefer products made at home (this is especially true in Japan). So if you're manufacturing machine tools here, and you know China is going to have both cheap labor and an expanding domestic market, of course you would think about building a plant there. It's a double whammy! The Chinese buy your mills and lathes because they're built in China and we buy them here because they're cheap.


Nature always tends toward equilibrium, or balance. The USA has had a virtual monopoly on high paying jobs, technical innovation, and apple pie and Chevrolet. The people in other more backward areas of the world have seen how it's done, and once they've been set loose to go, the pace of their innovation and hard work is impressive.


I would simply suggest that sitting on our butts is a road to future failure. I think Bronco had it right, only the best/brightest/hardworking will be able to maintain the high standard of living that we sometimes look at as an entitlement. It isn't anymore. It's a race. Got shoes?


Have a good one everyone, Mat

It would be real interesting to be able to archive these posts for say, 5 or 10 years and go back and read them and see where globalization has taken us.

Just think, those Chinese will probably be driving GM trucks!!! Now if I could design and come up with a real set of floor matts.....it wouldn't matter who's buying the trucks, I'll still have a market for my product. I know it's not quite that simple but we'll just have to change our dance card alittle. Who knows, things could end up better in the end. We just have to keep the Feds from blowing our future away in deficit speading, they have enough to deal with with medicare that's unfunded in 15 years...........these are the real threats to our long term economy.

I remeber sitting in the back yard of my parents house with my buddies when I was about 17 years old. Houses here by the beach hit $100,000 and we realized we'd never be able to afford a home here. All the good jobs were taken and the world was all screwed up. Well I'm 42 now and I can't see the ocean from my house, like my parents could, but I can ride my bike there in about 10 minutes. Edited by: MOTO HEAD