OK, Bagalac and I have been cooking up potential power inprovements to our 6.5's and one idea that keeps comming to the drawing board is the dualing DS4's. Seeing as Bagalac is pushing 19 psi bost and is still under the threasholdof power, it can be seen that the fuel requirment is not there to suplement the need of the additional boost. The 92mm pump that CR has is too much and the reflash from Westers is more that two weeks pay, how bout two pumps, engineered to work each with its own ecm and plumbed to the same injector. Here the question comes in "How much fuel can the injectors handle?".
Does anyone know of a figure to which these flow?

Hey now, my fuel isn't too much, just wait till i get the IC installed. And no matter what with dual pumps you'd still need a IC for the increased fuel rates, new ECM to drive them both! Still think your looking for more investment in doing that than buying 1 pump, 1 reflash and 1 IC. Dual pumps does sound cool though, might work in an oldie mechanical set-up!

Insider secret..... my second flash was free......testing you know!

It seems like double pumps could only double the volume, not the pressure. If you don't change the pressure the Injector isn't going to open any sooner or longer in duration, hense no more fuel. Modded DS4 = @14,000psi, new super diesels running closer to 25,000psi. That's almost 80% more fuel delivery capability in a given duration period.

It seems like double pumps could only double the volume, not the pressure. If you don't change the pressure the Injector isn't going to open any sooner or longer in duration, hense no more fuel.
Hold on hold on, did you just say that two pumps would 'double the volume' but not deliver more fuel? I think you should re-read / re-think that post.

If you want more fuel and pressure you'll need a 4 plunger DB2 mechanical pump.

Two pumps will not deliver more fuel through the injectors. The injectors are rated to open and close based on pressure not volume. Two 14,000psi pumps connected together at the injector still only delivers 14,000psi. So, I still stand by what I said before no more fuel, through the injectors.

Once the pumps are manifolded (fuel line) together the pressure in the manifold will only go as high as the stronger pump is capable of, assuming the weaker pump has a check valve to prevent backstreaming when it opens to pump and is pushed back by the greater pressure in the manifold.

Two pumps capable of 14,000psi each could pump into a closed chamber all day long and the pressure inside would never exceed 14,000psi.

Two pumps would only deliver twice the fuel volume if they were dumping into a 0 static load, since the fuel pressure has to overcome the spring resistance of the injector, that doesn't affect the point I'm trying to make.

I don't need to dissect an IP to now that it can't break the laws of physics.

Then how come we can increase a decrease fuel rates with just one pump and were not increasing pressures? Injector is spring loaded, it will just stay open longer at the given pressure and deliver more fuel until you've reached the max flow rate of the injector?

The pressures that you guys are referring to is "Peak" pressure. This is the pressure the system is capable of spiking to. The injector in the 6.5 is capable of flowing more fuel than the 6.5 will ever burn. The spike pressure has very little meaning in what the system can flow and should not relate to power.

I'm still stuck on how would you physically adapt a second pump to the existing system? First off, Why add an EFI pump? a db-2 wouldn't need much wiring changes to piggyback to a DS-4. I think that if you could come up with an adapter that fit into the timing cover and ran one pump as is and another on top of the intake manifold (talk about frankenstiening) then have a special set of lines that all T'd in, I could see it happening but how would you turn the idle RPM down enough to daily drive it?

Install two DB4 pumps, belt drive, each pump 4 cylinders each.
Or install one DB4 pump in the existing hole running 4 cylinders and add belt drive unit pumping to the other four cylinders.
When in economy mode disengage one pump and run on four cylinders. Sounds do-able, where's Quantum, he'll try anything.

:funnypost Hey, give it to mikey, he'll eat anything. :D

Two pumps will not deliver more fuel through the injectors. The injectors are rated to open and close based on pressure not volume.
Two pumps would only deliver twice the fuel volume if they were dumping into a 0 static load, since the fuel pressure has to overcome the spring resistance of the injector, that doesn't affect the point I'm trying to make.

I don't need to dissect an IP to now that it can't break the laws of physics.
Your physics are just based on bad logic is all, Injectors are calibrated to open when there is sufficient pressure, and they will keep injecting fuel as long as it is delivered to them.

Your trying to apply Gasoline Multiport injector logic to Diesel Injectors, they just don't work the same. Injection pump will pump a calibrated volume of fuel, opening pressure of the injectors makes a very small difference in volume.
Install two DB4 pumps, belt drive, each pump 4 cylinders each.
Or install one DB4 pump in the existing hole running 4 cylinders and add belt drive unit pumping to the other four cylinders.
Yeah, thats great DP, but how are you going to time a belt driven DB4?

You can Take a 5068 pump and de-tune it to run with 5521 ECM calibration for increased fuel quantity.

Use a variable speed pulley and run it engine speed for twice the output.

To CR, I did not mean that your pump put out too much fuel, i ment it cost too much$$$:) . I am a mechanical engineering student in my senior year and am into making power. I am just wanting to build a new engine and need to figure in my fuel supply to calculate my boost pressure and Trq and HP figures. I have a girdle ready to be cut out of A2 tool steel that connects all 5 main caps to stengthen the bottom end and I have a nice set of 18:1 coated pistons as well as a brand new Garrett T04 turbo ready to make 400 hp , 1200 lb ft out of a 6.5.
It may sound crazy or rediculous, but Bagalac and I spend hours divulging ideas and hypothesis on what to do to make the power and how to sustain it. My current dilema includes the fuel supply and also a good block to bore .020. That is it. I have esentially limitless machining capabilities at my job as an enigeer with our tool room being equiped with a three axis CNC mill and a 2 axis CNC lath and a Sunnen hone and Mitsui Grinders and a Deadtru grinder. Lots to take advantage of.

I did think about using a standard DS4 with a mechanical pump too. I am in the process of mocking up the drive system to the two pumps actually. Becasue then, only one ecm needed and it would be easy to contol the power. Heres how I plan on it:
1. DS4 pump with T04 turbo at 0 - 60% wasted gate. this would be for daily driving
2. DS4 pump then turn on the fuel supply to the DB2 and reset the wastegate percentage to 20 - 90%. This way, lot-o-fuel and lot-o-boost, about 28 psi. This would be ideal. No mechanical system to turn on the pump, a flick of a switch and up the boost, WAMMO, MO POWER:grd: .

One problem of two pump though. Can the cam take the extra stress of drvining two pumps? That is my only concern what do you think.

So, there is the current plan. Of course, I need a block first and the extra pump and this is all banking on the injectors being able to flow more than twice the stock anount of I believe 80 mm.

The current drive system is barely adequate for the stock pump. The drive gear that attaches in front of the cam gear only engages about a 1/4" of the key. Needs a key all the way across the gear.

mixing a DS4 and DB2 will be all but impossible, no matter your knowledge or engineering capabilities. You would have to have split high pressure lines, a place to put a second pump and drive it, and you will NEVER be able to make them run at the same advance, they will clash all the time, it just won't work.

Have to decided to go either DS4 with reflash, or all mechanical with DB2 and standalone tranny control.

That is an idea, plus you could just pump air while in economy mode and use the compressed air for a number of things. If you've ever read about this, it's done in australia to push the truck off the axles while driving.

ok, well what is the OPTIMAL flow and pressure of the stock injectors?

ok, well what is the OPTIMAL flow and pressure of the stock injectors?
Too much of gasoline terminology, that completely doesn't apply to these type of injectors. A diesel injector's sole purpose is to atomize fuel when it enters the combustion chamber. Thats it, Opening pressure just needs to be where the injector both atomizes fuel well and lasts longest, and that is at or just above the stock setting. Flow Rates have nothing to do with it, thats used for gasoline or Diesel Common rail injectors, quantity/flow is determined by the pump solely, and just has to be matched to the application by calibrating the pump.

mixing a DS4 and DB2 will be all but impossible, no matter your knowledge or engineering capabilities. You would have to have split high pressure lines, a place to put a second pump and drive it, and you will NEVER be able to make them run at the same advance, they will clash all the time, it just won't work.

Sure it will. You route the other injection pump to pencil injectors which fit where the glowplugs once where.
Never heard of split fire injection my dear Sherman?

That is an idea, plus you could just pump air while in economy mode and use the compressed air for a number of things. If you've ever read about this, it's done in australia to push the truck off the axles while driving.

I imagine when the truck fell off the axles it would get better mileage. Hmmmm?

Schramm at one time made 3208 Cat air compressors. It was actually a tractor with air tanks attached. They took the Cat injection pump off and placed a special DM injection pump in its place (TDG can research that). Four cylinders operated the tractor and the other four where routed to the air tanks. Worked quite well in the field. Drive anywhere on the site use the air or use it for other onsite jobs a tractor might do. Get a flat and just whip out an air hose.

International also produced an 8 cylinder engine they used in light delievery trucks. At idle or light load the engine ran on four cylinders. Mash the throttle and all eight would fire. Did quite a few for the Navy. Really were not that good. They used an 8 cylinder inline pump with 4 P&B's undercut at the helix so as to not pump at Idle. Converted a lot back to running on all eight.

The DV550 international engine was used in a tractor and idled on four cylinders>

http://www.tractorshop.com/articles/ih.html

..Route the other injection pump to pencil injectors which fit where the glowplugs once where.
OK seriously, how much longer do we have to entertain this idea of dual IPs? Pencil injectors in the GP holes? C'mon.

How about a DB2 Cam ring in a DS pump? The lobes are about 10 times higher, you could get 400cc of fuel! Or what about pulling the Pre-Cups out and putting HUGE DI injectors in there instead! LOL

There are lots pheasable options to be explored, but this dual IPs thing has got to go.

OK seriously, how much longer do we have to entertain this idea of dual IPs? Pencil injectors in the GP holes? C'mon.

How about a DB2 Cam ring in a DS pump? The lobes are about 10 times higher, you could get 400cc of fuel! Or what about pulling the Pre-Cups out and putting HUGE DI injectors in there instead! LOL

There are lots pheasable options to be explored, but this dual IPs thing has got to go.

to be honest with you,.. i totally agree it was an off the wall idea that i knew was a little wacky and i said it wasn't a good idea to post any of it on here...
(and by the way when i original made my drunken 2 pump comment to adam.. i suggest running 16 injectors but anyhow)

now i don't know if you want me to post a new thread or ask a question here that relates to what you just said.. we've talked about the 5068 cam ring in the other pumps and how it will increase fueling but not as much as with a reflash... i don't know if that was a smart ass comment the DB2 cam ring comment.. but are there other rings that could go in the 5021? what is the difference while inspecting mine i noticed its just an elipse thats cut out of the circular piece on the 5068 ring is the elipse larger.. or is it just the narrower part of the ring stays narrower or wider for longer?

I think it would be best to start a new thread on this, and yes, I was joking about the DB2 cam rings, only QM would try that ;)

I had to post all this. It was there on my mind and I need fuel to make my HP mark. I have the feeling that rebuilding the extra 5021 in my garage with the 5068 specs will be the way to go. I wish I could get my hands on engieering cam duration in order to change it and regrind a new cam ring. Hopefully my friend at Navistar pulls through and gets me info on upgrades and a possible remap of the fuel curve on my ECM. Or this could all be a pipe dream. :rolleyes:

Two IP's look like it's more trouble than it's worth. . . let me ask you this . . . can you put on another type of pump, by another company that will spit out the fuel you need? Exactly how much fuel delivery numerically speaking are you looking for? Modificiations would be needed, but maybe less than that of two pumps.

Easy! Install a mechanical 4-plunger DB2. 310hp Marine application.
model number DB2831-5722
It is capable of putting out more than the engine can burn with no electronics.

Which, strangely enough, is actually listed as a 6.2 Marine pump, but will definitely work on a 6.5. And its a DB2833.

Which, strangely enough, is actually listed as a 6.2 Marine pump, but will definitely work on a 6.5. And its a DB2833.

Wrong again my dear Sherman. 6.5L TURBOCHARGED and of course, as I am right as usual, a DB2831. Perhaps you should consult your injection pump specifications before you try correcting me. Remember how you said this pump don't exist and there was no such thing as a 4-plunger DB2? Just da fact Jac.

STANADYNE LISTED

Model: DB2831-5722, 6.5L , 310 H.P. MARINE (4-Plunger)

Application: http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/400ta/400ta.htm

Then how come we can increase a decrease fuel rates with just one pump and were not increasing pressures? Injector is spring loaded, it will just stay open longer at the given pressure and deliver more fuel until you've reached the max flow rate of the injector?

When we increase and decrease the fuel rate with our one pump we are changing the duration, by way of the optic sensor.

Wrong again my dear Sherman. 6.5L TURBOCHARGED
My bad, for some reason I was thinking the 5722 was the 250Hp 6.2 pump, which is a DB2 833. My mistake.
When we increase and decrease the fuel rate with our one pump we are changing the duration, by way of the optic sensor.
Yes, Longer FSol energized times means poppet valve stays closed longer and the pump delivers more fuel.

[quote=Texas Diesel Guy]Your physics are just based on bad logic is all, Injectors are calibrated to open when there is sufficient pressure, and they will keep injecting fuel as long as it is delivered to them.

Keep injecting fuel as long as it is delivered to them, this is a duration issue not a pressure issue and still doesn't make my logic bad.

Two pumps capable of 14,000psi each sycronized by some miracle to pulse starting at the same time set to the same duration will still only send 14,000psi to the injector for the same duration as one pump.

If someone was really crafty they could overlap the pulses so somewhere near the end of the first pulse the second starts in, delivering double the duration and double the fuel. They could always mount the second pump next to the "Flux Capacitor".

Doubling the durration of the injection pulse would throw off the combustion event timing so badly, it would be more feasable to build an entirely new engine out of kitchen appliances.

Pumps capabable pressure is a non-issue, Opening pressure of the injector is all the pressure that will ever be present, above that the nozzle is open and fuel is injected.

Rotary and inline injection pumps deliver a calibrated volume of fuel, not a specific pressure like a common rail system in which pressure does play a large role in quantity.

What kind of Kitchen appliances? Maybe we could microwave the fuel in the combustion chamber and power vent the exhaust.

Just to add...
Well take a DB2/DB4 pump just for instance.
Roller to Roller dimension, which is for the most part determined by the leaf spring(s), sets the limit of travel for the shoes/rollers/plungers, which inturn sets the maximum amount of fuel which can fill the plunger bores inside the rotor.
R2R dimesion, plunger bore size and cam profile determine the max fuel quantity, not pressure.

Fuel quantity is metered by the metering valve. At WOT the valve is fully opened and plunger bore completely filled to predetermined limit of the leaf spring until. At part load, low/high idle, the metering valve is partially closed and the plungers are only partially filled.

DS pumps are similair, except they have no leaf springs, the rollers never leave contact with the cam ring which determines the R2R dimension.

Fuel quantity is determined by the Fuel Solenoid/Poppet Valve, which stays closed until desired Hi Res count is reached and the valve opens and no more fuel is delivered.

This arguement keeps going back and forth and i'd rather see two talented individuals' experience goto something a little more worth while.. so i'll repeat again.. the original IDEA of 2 IP was to inject fuel with 16 injectors.. END OF STORY.. there was never a plan to Y 2 fuel lines..

not instead of refueling the fire (no pun intended) don't even ask where the second set of 8 injectors were going.

--brian

So the 'dual IPs' idea is officially dropped then?

The second set of injectors would easily go in the glowplug holes with a few mods of course, using pencil nozzles or micro injectors.

Isn't the design of the engine supposed to swirl the fuel in such a way to help it to burn better? or is there going to be some other type of issue with timing that will insure that the fire is burning and the pencil injector will just keep things going?

Isn't the design of the engine supposed to swirl the fuel in such a way to help it to burn better?
What I thought to, DP you got that all figured out too?

even fuel distribution in the cylinder is impostant. I do not know that the pencil injecors would do that.

So the 'dual IPs' idea is officially dropped then?

i would love for it to be dropped.. i was never an avocate of it being posted on here in the first place because i knew it would start this huge FLAME war.. i can't say it will never be discussed outside this site.. but i'll make you this promise TDG because i respect you.. i'll never bring it up again.. unless of course i had it on a truck working (which isn't gonna happen) but like i said.. end of story.. it was never a good idea to mention it on here.. and that's been proving.. if some one could lock this... that'd be great.. no get your A$$ over to IPs and Cam rings and start posting.. LOL.. i'm just playing

-Brian

There are some engines out there with two separate inline injection pumps. Big engines I might add. I guess with some major redesigns you could put a large inline 8 cylinder pump on the 6.5.