I've got a 2000 6.5L Express Van with 125k miles. I sent away for the DSG web bearing brace kit and was wondering if I should change the oil pump since I'll have the pan off. This is my first diesel and working with cars it's a good idea with this many miles. Is it true with diesels?

If you have low oil pressure at 125k than you got more problems then a girdle and an oil pump can fix. With proper maintainence your 6.5 should maintain good oil pressure for well in excess of 250k.

Unless you have oil pressure issues, it should be just fine. If you like the piece of mind that comes with changing it, who are we to argue with you? Its your truck and your money right?

The pump isn't expensive. I had mine changed around 100K when the dealer was doing other warranty work. It was a no brainer. Pressure improved, but was never dangerously low anyway. It just made me feel better.

Jake

They are going to have to pull the engine to install that kit, so YES install a new oil pump They are inexpensive, and most people forget that the oil pump is the only part in the engine that receives "unfiltered oil" meaning it takes some abuse.

Any updates? What did you end up doing?

I'm still waiting for DSG to get the kit. I decided to buy the oil pump since I'll have the pan off. I hope that your wrong about pulling the engine. I've got a 2000 3500 Chevy Express cargo van 6.5L turbo diesel that I'm putting the kit on. I also have a 1996 3500 Chevy cargo van 5.7L gasoline with a 350 engine that I changed the main bearings in without pulling the engine. It was a little tight to get the pan off until I put cylinder #1 in TDC and it was easier to get off and on. I did some research and from what I understand that the 6.5 is basically a 350 modified to diesel. I looked at the pan location on the 6.5 and it looks just like the 5.7. I put in the Heath PMD relocation kit in last payday along with new glow plugs. This payday I'm going to change the injectors with Bosch. Also, the lift pump, OPS, glow plug controller and relay from Heath. The following payday is when I'll put in the web kit, oil pump, oil cooler lines, amsoil bypass oil filter kit, amsoil air and oil filters, and oil.

I did some research and from what I understand that the 6.5 is basically a 350 modified to diesel. I looked at the pan location on the 6.5 and it looks just like the 5.7

Oh how wrong you are.

And a 305 looks like a 350 from the outside as well. Go back in time. An Olds 350 and a Pontiac 350 and a Chevy 350 were 3 totally different animals before GM decided to make them all the same. Whats your point? Something looks similar means one must be based off the other?

You couldn't be further from the truth. Where in the world did you see that? Not here i can tell you that much. Do some real research and look through the 6.5 FAQs here (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53309). Get the correct information.

None of the GM diesel were converted gassers. The 6.2/6.5 was not based off a gasser. They were designed as Diesels from the ground up.

Being this is my first diesel and have read every FAQ on this site. None say anything about the engine block. I did find a few posts here on web bearing cracks. When researching the 6.5l, not just on this site. There is debate on the modified 350 (gas to diesel) arguement. I just went looking for where I read that it was a 350 gas with a beefier crank and heads, and the reason for the web cracks was that it was a 350 block that couldn't withstand the related pressures of diesel. Maybe the debate started from:

The GM 5.7l is without a doubt the worst diesel engine ever cobbled together. It is the Olds 350 gas block that was converted to diesel. (Cruiserfaq)

You make it sound that I just looked at the engine and said it looks like an engine. Like I'm some idiot. The 6.5l has a bore and stroke of 4.06x3.82, the bore and stroke of a 5.7l gas (350) is 4.00x3.48.
The key to the 6.5L swap is that its overall size and shape were largely dictated by the Chevy 350 and 454 gas engines that GM produced.(Diesel Power Magazine).
I'm not here to argue or belittle others. I just want to fix any potential problems that are associated to the 6.5, to have a reliable van. Before the economy takes a complete dump.
Now, if you could tell me why the engine sounds like a rock tumbler that would be greatly informative, thanks ahead of time.

Being this is my first diesel and have read every FAQ on this site. None say anything about the engine block. I did find a few posts here on web bearing cracks. When researching the 6.5l, not just on this site. There is debate on the modified 350 (gas to diesel) arguement. I just went looking for where I read that it was a 350 gas with a beefier crank and heads, and the reason for the web cracks was that it was a 350 block that couldn't withstand the related pressures of diesel. Maybe the debate started from:

The GM 5.7l is without a doubt the worst diesel engine ever cobbled together. It is the Olds 350 gas block that was converted to diesel. (Cruiserfaq)

You make it sound that I just looked at the engine and said it looks like an engine. Like I'm some idiot. The 6.5l has a bore and stroke of 4.06x3.82, the bore and stroke of a 5.7l gas (350) is 4.00x3.48.
The key to the 6.5L swap is that its overall size and shape were largely dictated by the Chevy 350 and 454 gas engines that GM produced.(Diesel Power Magazine).
I'm not here to argue or belittle others. I just want to fix any potential problems that are associated to the 6.5, to have a reliable van. Before the economy takes a complete dump.
Now, if you could tell me why the engine sounds like a rock tumbler that would be greatly informative, thanks ahead of time.

What are you talking about?

There should be no arguement or debate on the 6.5's heritage. I'll tell you the heritage of it right now. It was originally designed as the 6.2 Diesel from the ground up for the 1982 model year by the then Detroit Diesel Division of General Motors. Over the course of 6.2 production, things where changed here and there. For 1992, GM took the 6.2, bored it out, did a few more things, and offered a turbo on it. Other than application, the 6.2/6.5 shares no ancestry with any gas engines. The shape being dictated by gassers is true, see application. The idea was to squeeze it wherever a gasser would go. This doesn't, however, mean it's based on a gasser. The reason the block cracks is just poor design. Member chevyinlinesix had a huge list of differences between the 350 and 6.5 and 454 and 6.5 that make it obvious that it has no ancestry with either engine.

Why does it sound like a rock tumbler? Probably has something to do with being an IDI Diesel. That'd be my guess.

There are several different blocks that these engines came with, 141, 929, 506, 599, ect. Completely different castings from a small block, or big block Chevy/Buick/Olds/Pontiac. For future reference;

The cylinder walls/decks are much thicker.
The main bearings are huge.
All main caps have 4 straight bolts.
They have a central thrust bearing.
Starter mount is different.
The timing cover is a thick aluminum piece that houses the timing chain, injector pump gears, and hold injector pump in place.
The rear main seal is twice the size of a gas engine seal.
Factory piston squirters.
Different oil pan bolt size, spacing, and design.
Factory nitrided crankshaft bearing journals.
Very large crankshaft snout that accepts a huge fine thread H/B bolt.
Entirely different firing order.
Large forged connecting rods.
Piston pins that are nearly solid they're walls are so thick.
Full floating piston pins.
Factory hydraulic roller camshaft and lifters.
Entirely different oil pump/oil pump drive shaft
Factory double roller timing chain, with all steel timing gears.
Enclosed lifter/push rods inside engine block, dry valley.
No valve relives in pistons.
Longer, and excessively heavy duty, tip hardened push rods.
Factory shaft mounted rocker arms.
Different exhaust ports and bolt pattern, like no other.
Different intake ports and bolt pattern, like no other.
High pressure fuel injectors, precups in heads, prechamber with glowplugs, no combustion chamber, only a "fire deck"
Different valve cover size/bolt pattern all together.
Different head bolt pattern.
Different cooling system, bypass type setup.
Entire unique water pump.
Factory Aluminum single plane intake manifold.

It would have been MUCH easier to say what's the same on them, like the bell housing bolt pattern, or the mechanical fuel pump location :)

The reason I asked if they are pulling the engine, is because installing any kind of girdle, or even just installing studs, will distort the block, and require an align hone to get all the bearings sitting properly.

The reason I asked if they are pulling the engine, is because installing any kind of girdle, or even just installing studs, will distort the block, and require an align hone to get all the bearings sitting properly.
why would studs distort anything? it is still clamping down the main cap in the same manner just not putting the pressure on the block threads as much, and the inner bolts are still the same , the girdle only adds studs to the outer bolts away from the bearings

why would studs distort anything? it is still clamping down the main cap in the same manner just not putting the pressure on the block threads as much, and the inner bolts are still the same , the girdle only adds studs to the outer bolts away from the bearings

Aside from the fact that it is basic engine building knowledge, just search "main stud distort" or "main girdle align hone" in Google. Similar searches will come up with the same results. It creates different loading of the caps, block, and hence distort the main bores.

Thanks everyone for kindly taking me to school. I feel proud of my van now! It just turned 125,000 tonite. Up until now, (still getting used to the sound of it) every gas engine that sounded like that, was ready to die. So, I thought it was a weak engine design being based on a gas engine to run as a diesel. I googled, "main stud distort". I didn't find any thing on the brace causing more damage and not strengthening the bottom end. If the main bearing caps are not being moved, (doing one side at a time). Use vise grips, and pull the stud out. If you torque the new stud to the engine specs, what's the difference? I could see if the brace didn't sit completely flat on all three center main bearing caps evanly. The military is braceing their motors and adding nickle in the block. I figured braceing it was easier to do than adding nickle to the block.

The harmonic balancer looks ok. Is a bad harmonic balancer the main reason for web cracks on these motors?

The harmonic balancer looks ok. Is a bad harmonic balancer the main reason for web cracks on these motors?

No. It's just a bad design. Main reason for cranks snapping is the balancer.

Morning everyone. Started watching this thread yesterday and kinda figured it would be another good discussion. :rolleyes:

We are presently installing stud girdles on 3 of our motors, 2 of which are still in trucks. The 3rd I wanted to fill bottom of block with block filler also. Our girdles are built out of 3/8 X 1.5in angle iron. Nothing fancy, yet no rocking on main caps.:p:

The reason we are not using block filler, is that a reputable engine builder figured the deformation caused by the weight of the filler would be out of tolerances for this block (our strongest motor has 8 cracked pistons).:D

I see in many signatures here that these motors have girdles on them.

How many were line and cylinder bored to true them up with girdle installed?:)

How many weren't? :eek:

Hope the moderators are watching; maybe we could have a mini-poll for 6.2/6.5l owners so we can see actual numbers and have real-life experiences to utilize when making our decisions.:D

We will install our girdles this time without completely tearing the motors apart and sending them out for full machining (straightedge to verify if motor is true and a good feeling in the pit of the stomach is enough for me).:cool:

Always figured one of the reasons we are using these motors in the first place is the price/power ratio suits us just fine.;)

Well have a great day and thanks again for the discussion.

A bit off topic but believe GEP,s 6.5 P400 block has a girdle built in to it.

A bit off topic but believe GEP,s 6.5 P400 block has a girdle built in to it.

Yes you are correct.

I'm not saying that if you install studs or a girdle your engine will blow, or even start knocking. BUT tear that engine down after it has some good miles on it, and you will not be impressed with the condition of the bearings.

Edit: All this talk gives me an idea :D

Now I'm thinking a better investment would be to always have a realatively new harmonic balancer. Sounds as though thats the source for the web cracks and broken cranks. How many miles do you think you'd get before you had to tear down the motor, because of not honeing the cylinders with the brace? On Heath, I saw a liquid filled harmonic balancer. What do think of the liquid filled? Better balanced? Better preventive maitenance than the brace with no hone job?

Morning everyone. Started watching this thread yesterday and kinda figured it would be another good discussion. :rolleyes:

We are presently installing stud girdles on 3 of our motors, 2 of which are still in trucks. The 3rd I wanted to fill bottom of block with block filler also. Our girdles are built out of 3/8 X 1.5in angle iron. Nothing fancy, yet no rocking on main caps.:p:

The reason we are not using block filler, is that a reputable engine builder figured the deformation caused by the weight of the filler would be out of tolerances for this block (our strongest motor has 8 cracked pistons).:D

I see in many signatures here that these motors have girdles on them.

How many were line and cylinder bored to true them up with girdle installed?:)

How many weren't? :eek:

Hope the moderators are watching; maybe we could have a mini-poll for 6.2/6.5l owners so we can see actual numbers and have real-life experiences to utilize when making our decisions.:D

We will install our girdles this time without completely tearing the motors apart and sending them out for full machining (straightedge to verify if motor is true and a good feeling in the pit of the stomach is enough for me).:cool:

Always figured one of the reasons we are using these motors in the first place is the price/power ratio suits us just fine.;)

Well have a great day and thanks again for the discussion.

I'm watching. :D

You should be able to set the poll up yourself. If not let me know and i'll set one up for you with the information you provide me.

I'm way off topic now Dave. Mechanically sound, yet keyboard challenged. We'll see what we can do from here. I know you guys are always watching, thanks again for all your work.:)

Should be turning motor over in a week or two. Got two girdles almost complete now.:D

Go girdle or go ..... Fluidampers would be nice tooo.... yet P400 does not use.
We'll just use new original equipement (hope to get 150,000km more from motor), and original harmonic balancers were pretty good to 250,000km.:cool:

Aside from the fact that it is basic engine building knowledge, just search "main stud distort" or "main girdle align hone" in Google. Similar searches will come up with the same results. It creates different loading of the caps, block, and hence distort the main bores.

the only thing i am seeing is if you stud the whole cap and in this case it is just the outer bolts

Any time you change things it's going to alter the loads some. ? is how much? and also how much do you want to spend?

Any time you change things it's going to alter the loads some. ? is how much? and also how much do you want to spend?
thats really not what i want to hear, my new crate motor(506 block) has less than 17,000 miles on it and i want head studs and to stud and cradle to bottom end to prevent the cracking issues, but i can't afford to be doing machine work as well with needing a new turbo and getting my injectors all gone through.

I got the brace today, I've decided not to put it on from the information I've received here. I don't want to cause damage to prevent damage. Because, I don't want to tear down the engine to hone it. I'll save the brace for when I have to tear down the motor. So, to properly install the girdle, you need to hone the cylinders at the time of the girdle install? New rings too? Might as well start saving for that new nickle alloy block also.

I bought a solid one piece liquid filled hamonic balancer, it was pricy (over $400). Being a one time solution and better peace of mind about a failing harmonic balancer. I think the balancer is a better preventive maintenance thing to do at this time. I've read different pros and cons on these type of balancers also. More pros than cons, I think? Thanks for all the information and great advice everyone has given!

I got the brace today, I've decided not to put it on from the information I've received here. I don't want to cause damage to prevent damage. Because, I don't want to tear down the engine to hone it. I'll save the brace for when I have to tear down the motor. So, to properly install the girdle, you need to hone the cylinders at the time of the girdle install? New rings too? Might as well start saving for that new nickle alloy block also


it's not hone the cylinder with the girdle, its bore the main caps with the crank removed and torqued down with the girdle installed in the bare block

I was looking at the kit and wondered if there was any particular year motors that are prone to web cracks. I found out when I got the kit, that there are 2 types of kit. 10mm on years 97 and up, and 12mm on years 96 down. Was the decreasing in size of the studs because of the web crack issue? Did it help?

So the 3 outer cap surfaces are milled to the same level, so the brace doesn't woble sitting on the caps. Does the expansion and contraction of different metals have anything to do with the girdle distorting the cylinders?

If you can hold it up to the caps and it sits tight without any pressure on it personally I think you'd be fine. If it doesn't sit absolutely tight your going to change things some. IMO these girdles are a bandaid it might help some but no substitue for the extra steel that should have been cast in originally.

If you can hold it up to the caps and it sits tight without any pressure on it personally I think you'd be fine. If it doesn't sit absolutely tight your going to change things some. IMO these girdles are a bandaid it might help some but no substitue for the extra steel that should have been cast in originally.

i can agree to that, what would it have cost for just a little more iron or stronger cast compound with more nickel or something stronger yet

These girdles have been sold for years now, and they are to be added on to a operational block. All five of the caps are the same machined height. We will put girdles on our motors, not take them out of service to be line bored.:D

I have talked to people on another site that have done these same things that we are presently doing and the majority have had great success with these temporary bandaid fixes.;)

What is the difference in longevity of motors with or without the girdles anyways? maybe with the girdle in 250000 km, your bores will be wore in an oblong, so what, the motor is due to be freshened anyways, maybe without the girdle your blocks will have cracks in 50000 km, imo its better to bore the block after 250000 kms than scrap the block after 50000 km :eek: go with what works for you, its your money......

To install properly. The blocked would need to be prepped for align boring the block.

All the main caps would be slightly machined on the block side. The main caps would then be installed and torqued down. Then in a milling machine the block would be setup for main cap milling. One bolt at a time would then be removed and that hole machined flat to a uniform height as all the rest. Reinstall bolt and re-torque. After all the caps are machined flat and uniform the stud girdle can be then installed and torqued down.

The block can then be sent to the align bore machine to be align bored. From there with everything still in place the block could go the the CK10 honing machine. The cylinder bores could then be honed to the finished size. If you had head plates the block could be fitted with those first but I seriously doubt any machine shop would be so equipped.

Poor mans way. Clean everything up. Make sure the plate bolts down flat. Crank should spin by hand to make sure it's not binding up after the install.

To install properly. The blocked would need to be prepped for align boring the block.

All the main caps would be slightly machined on the block side. The main caps would then be installed and torqued down. Then in a milling machine the block would be setup for main cap milling. One bolt at a time would then be removed and that hole machined flat to a uniform height as all the rest. Reinstall bolt and re-torque. After all the caps are machined flat and uniform the stud girdle can be then installed and torqued down.

The block can then be sent to the align bore machine to be align bored. From there with everything still in place the block could go the the CK10 honing machine. The cylinder bores could then be honed to the finished size. If you had head plates the block could be fitted with those first but I seriously doubt any machine shop would be so equipped.

Poor mans way. Clean everything up. Make sure the plate bolts down flat. Crank should spin by hand to make sure it's not binding up after the install.

Don't forget to torque down the oil pump while doing this too :)

:sign_weir:rules::Nothing_f:):cool::D:eek:

I talked to someone pretty knowledgable on the 6.5. I asked what he thought of the girdle kits for preventive maintenance for web bearing cracks. He said that, "I have a 506 block concidered one of the worst." And said, "generally the web cracks happen in the first 20K miles", and that since I got 125k miles on the motor. He'd be surprised if there were catastrophic crank failure. He said, they don't mess with girdles because everyone that had them, the motors died. Cracked crank near the front or back after the girdle. Or broken rods or bearings. He said, the way the motor was designed (poorly) that those web bearing journals flex. The girdle makes the three to rigid and things break. I'm definitely not going to put it on my running fine motor. What was that saying don't fix that's already working or something like that. I'll just put that liquid dampner on. He said that would be a better band aid.

Sounds like good advice to me

my 506 has 250,000mi and it broke the #2 cap twice(drove 4 months with it broken) and also has had the cracking into the jacket the 506 tends to do, i am concerned with my almost new(less than 17,000mile) gm 506 long block, i don't want it to be cracked into the water jacket like the original or break a cap on this one, they seem to break when i pull my 10,000# trailer with my offroad truck on it but that could be a coincidence, but i was thinking the crank was flexing and breaking that cap.

how about studs replacing all bolts with no girdles?

I'd like to see a picture of the fluid damper. Since the engine is externally balanced is there a counter balance on it?

Weird question of the day. How do you balance a fluid balancer with external weight?

I'd like to see a picture of the fluid damper. Since the engine is externally balanced is there a counter balance on it?

Weird question of the day. How do you balance a fluid balancer with external weight?

Here you go

http://www.fluidampr.com/DURAMAX.htm

how about studs replacing all bolts with no girdles?

Same thing i;am wondering

Pulling my 98 out this weekend not sure I want to use the girdles even if line bored

crack's into water jacket anything to help prevent this ??

Same thing i;am wondering

Pulling my 98 out this weekend not sure I want to use the girdles even if line bored

crack's into water jacket anything to help prevent this ??

If you are removing the engine to rebuild it, at the very least, you can smooth out the bottom of the cylinders with a flapper wheel, especially where the tooling that was used to drill the piston squirters clipped the bottom of the cylinder, which causes the cracking into the water jacket. If you are boring out the cylinders, and have some time, you can fill the block with Hard Blok, to the bottom of the frost plugs, which will greatly increase the overall strength of it.

how about studs replacing all bolts with no girdles?

Personally, I would prefer having all the bolts replaced with studs. I believe a few people have already done this before.

i called bill heath and i was just told to not use that girdle and yes it will cause it to blow the crank due to cap failure from the uneven load caused by studs out the outer ends and bolts in the middle, even more failure prone with my 506 block.

Hummm...I have two motors to possibly put my girdle in, a 6.2 and a 6.5. I hadn't decided which I was going to use it on, likely the 6.5 as it needs a rebuild, and the 6.2 is already cracked and has a backup rebuilt just waiting for the day.

After reading this, I am not so sure about using it now...I will keep an eye on this thread as it progresses.

If you are removing the engine to rebuild it, at the very least, you can smooth out the bottom of the cylinders with a flapper wheel, especially where the tooling that was used to drill the piston squirters clipped the bottom of the cylinder, which causes the cracking into the water jacket. If you are boring out the cylinders, and have some time, you can fill the block with Hard Blok, to the bottom of the frost plugs, which will greatly increase the overall strength of it.



Have you done this before ?? any effects on cooling flow

I have the Hard Blok sitting beside my engine right meow, and will be filling the block actually a bit higher than that. Heath has done this to many 6.5's and not had any problems, and it shouldn't give problems either, as there is very little heat generated at the bottom of the stroke.

pulling mine out tommorrow send me some picks when done !!

Bottom of the freeze plugs isn't very high at all. IIRC the phone call I had with Bill he filled them much more than that.

I went to the site of Hard Blok. It looks from what i understand it hardens the cylinders and fills the bottom of the cylinder water jacket. Does this add strength to the main bearing web journals? And doesn't it reduce cooling to the bottom of the cylinders making it run hotter? I did go to the General Engine Products website. They have a GEP P400 6500 Optimizer 6.5L diesel. That is one nice motor! I'm saving for that bad boy. Started checking prices, so far for a brand new long block is $4500, $5300 and $5500 includes shipping. Got an offer for a "good" used one for $3500. I'll pay the extra for a new one.

I also noticed when I received the girdle it said 10mm for years 97 and up and 12mm on 96 down On further research motors with the 12mm were more vulnerable to web cracks than 10mm. On the 6500 Optimizer it has 10mm studs. Plus, the block is 25% stronger because of the added nickle.

I also noticed when I received the girdle it said 10mm for years 97 and up and 12mm on 96 down On further research motors with the 12mm were more vulnerable to web cracks than 10mm. On the 6500 Optimizer it has 10mm studs. Plus, the block is 25% stronger because of the added nickle.
bill heath told me yesterday,the problem with the 506 block is not the metal, it was the process gm had, they took the casting straight from the mold and into the machine shop without letting the block fully cure, this caused core shift , warpage and a ton of stress , heath says he will not even touch a 506 block, the 10mm bolts helped nothing.

he told me the best thing to do is scrap the 506 and get a 599 6.2 and strap on the 6.5 heads

I went to the site of Hard Blok. It looks from what i understand it hardens the cylinders and fills the bottom of the cylinder water jacket. Does this add strength to the main bearing web journals? And doesn't it reduce cooling to the bottom of the cylinders making it run hotter?


The top of the piston (which is where all the heat is) only goes down about halfway in the bore, so the bottom 1/2 doesn't get near as much heat as the top 1/2. The piston squirters which gm uses is designed to cool the top of the piston from underneath. Alot of diesels use this system. All of this points to heat at the top 1/2 of the cylinder.

Sounds like a great mod. I would imagine you'd have to use the exact amount of Hard Blok on each side. Because the water will travel in the path of least resistance, cooling one side better than the other? I would love to know the before and after Hard Blok temps. Does it help prevent web cracks?

Sounds like a great mod. I would imagine you'd have to use the exact amount of Hard Blok on each side. Because the water will travel in the path of least resistance, cooling one side better than the other? I would love to know the before and after Hard Blok temps. Does it help prevent web cracks?

Yes, you have to fill each half of the block the same amount, you also have to set the block so it sets perfectly level when you do it. You also have to get all the air bubbles out when you pour it in. prior to pouring it, it is advisable to clean the water jackets out with muratic acid (Hydrochloric acid diluted typically 30%). The main webs tie into the bottom of the coolant jackets, and with it filled with Hard Blok, will eliminate flex in this area that may lead to cracks.

Also note, once the Hard Blok is in, it will never come out. There is no way to get it out ever.

dont forget, that filling the block with cement also requires line boring the crank journals as well as the cylinder bores....:D

I guess you need to pull the motor to make the top of each cylinder side level, when you put in the Hard Blok. So, if you have to line and hone after adding Hard Blok. Would that be the time to put in the girdle kit that comes with studs instead of bolts? Also, do you need to mill the girdle to match the webs? I'm still wondering, if the girdles are not made of the exact metal content as the webs are. The girdle would expand and contract differently than the webs, stressing them, now that the block is more rigid?

For me the question is how much time(everything done myself except for machining) and money to make a reliable motor that will last at least 300k miles (I've already put on Heaths Diesel remote PMD, who knows, maybe I already have one?). How much to line and hone, add Hard Blok(mistakes sound irreversable), two rebuilt heads, pistons and rings, connecting rods and push rods, main bearings, crank journals refurbished, connecting rod bearings, lifters, gaskets, RTV, different locktights, etc.. and the time to do all this?

Verses, just buying a brand new long block Optimizer 6500 for around $4500. From what I've read those blocks and heads are pretty solid . I've only found limited information on a Optimizer 6500 P400 (connects all 5 web journals together) but you have to fabricate your own oil pan. The only draw back I can see besides making your own oil pan for the P400. Is these motors are built for mechanical fuel pumps and how do you add the engine position sensor for an electronic lift pump?

I guess you need to pull the motor to make the top of each cylinder side level, when you put in the Hard Blok. So, if you have to line and hone after adding Hard Blok. Would that be the time to put in the girdle kit that comes with studs instead of bolts? Also, do you need to mill the girdle to match the webs? I'm still wondering, if the girdles are not made of the exact metal content as the webs are. The girdle would expand and contract differently than the webs, stressing them, now that the block is more rigid?

For me the question is how much time(everything done myself except for machining) and money to make a reliable motor that will last at least 300k miles (I've already put on Heaths Diesel remote PMD, who knows, maybe I already have one?). How much to line and hone, add Hard Blok(mistakes sound irreversable), two rebuilt heads, pistons and rings, connecting rods and push rods, main bearings, crank journals refurbished, connecting rod bearings, lifters, gaskets, RTV, different locktights, etc.. and the time to do all this?



the stock cranks cannot be refurbished , the hardening is not deep enough to cut them

for the piece of mind it gives its worth it to buy brand new if you have the money, and the new 6.5 comes with the kick ass main girdle, if it counts i dont think your motor will explode with the dsg girdle installed, if you have doubts phone dsg and ask them directly if they will stand behind the girdle, they seem to, they put it in their new motors.....:confused:

for the piece of mind it gives its worth it to buy brand new if you have the money, and the new 6.5 comes with the kick ass main girdle, if it counts i dont think your motor will explode with the dsg girdle installed, if you have doubts phone dsg and ask them directly if they will stand behind the girdle, they seem to, they put it in their new motors.....:confused:


I just called DSG about this Yes they stand behind "there " motors with the kit but no warranty on a old block he also said do not use a 97-98 block

The parts guy I talked to said they have sold and I qoute Thousands of these kit's with no problem .

So when I asked him about the kit he got very pissy with me for asking or saying that there may or could be problems down the road . I'am not impressed. They just lost my o'haul parts and pump !!

I'am going to look for pre 1997 block

still on the fence about this kit maybe studs and fluiddamper

Does anybody have major miles on one of these kit ?????

anyways, there are cheaper places to buy ip pumps and rebuild parts, i found dsg was a bit over priced, i seriously think that the effects of the stud girdle is minimal..... we are building a 5 cap girdle and slappin it in the motor, if the motor blows, then it blows (by blowing i mean something immediate like 25 miles not 200000miles) there are still lots of motors out there... hey rev, what motor are you lookin for? i have a 599 block 6.5 still attached to a truck if it interests you....:D

anyways, there are cheaper places to buy ip pumps and rebuild parts, i found dsg was a bit over priced, i seriously think that the effects of the stud girdle is minimal..... we are building a 5 cap girdle and slappin it in the motor, if the motor blows, then it blows (by blowing i mean something immediate like 25 miles not 200000miles) there are still lots of motors out there... hey rev, what motor are you lookin for? i have a 599 block 6.5 still attached to a truck if it interests you....:D

Yes there are cheaper part place's but i'am going to need some machine work , and here in grande "rape you" prairie this type of work is rite out of here for price !!!

the 599 yes

Price Please lol Just remenber we are all family on here lol

could be a long drive to pick it up !!!!

the truck is a 1994 z-71 1500 with a 4l80e 4x4 fully loaded, the truck has 330000km but the motor was changed on at 170000km, the ip is 2 years old, relocated pmd, new gas tank, lines, brake lines, brakes front and back, 2 sets of aluminum wheels, lund topper. for family ill let it go for 2500.00 also its a extended cab short box. if you jump on the bus, your here in 4 days, take the bus to ottawa and ill deliver the truck to you there.... i was born in saskatchewan, and moved out here 10 years ago.

heres a pic of the truck

Would you part it out ?

I just bought two 98's one with a broken crank 330 k
2nd one with 241k had the ign. bust out (some one tried to steel it ) full load leather z-71 but the engine needs a couple of can's of compression !!! lol
still have my 91 6.2 & 05 grand prix so if I bring one more body around here the old lady will have my " knacker's "

But I did sell my 04 lly d-max ah maybe I toss it at her tonight so if I do log on tommorrow you know the out come lol !!!

What part of sask ??? south west !!!

im not really into parting the truck, i just repainted it, im going to put it on kigigi this week for 3000.00 and see what happens..... i was born in regina in 74 and in 89 i moved to grandview beach, its on last mountain lake, about an hour north of regina.... imoved to quebec in 99 because i was stuck in a rut on the prairies, here i bought a house in the woods with a 30 by 30 shop, its real nice and quiet, except when we fire up the skidoos and rip around.

last year we only had 6.5 feet of snow, this year we have about 3 feet so far...:p:

hey rev, what is your gut instinct on the web girdle, if you never seen this post, would you have put it in your motor without a second thought? im just curious......

" last year we only had 6.5 feet of snow "

You lucky dog !!!!!!

I Know that part of sask I was north and east Touchwood area then last 15 years Quill lake area

She's booming there now

How close to valcourt are you?

So you have installed these kit"s many miles on them ??

hey rev, what is your gut instinct on the web girdle, if you never seen this post, would you have put it in your motor without a second thought? im just curious......

"NO"

Here's my take on it

if the kit is not the same center to center of the bolt hole's more stress

heat expansion different than the casting of the block

pulling on the main cap's stress When you torque the main caps to the block they become part of the block (so to speak) now if you put the kit on does it not put the load on the cap only. Now will that not bend or move the main cap. All be it very little but still stress the cap and brg's and crank ????

I started wrenching in 78 (tranny& diffy' ) and in 82 when in tech school we had an instructor that was a die hard dodge man. He had been to the factory & had many stories, some b s and some made sense. he had said that the engine block's where cast 12-18 months ahead of production and set out side to cure & weather . Then they were machined etc. after that time frame . He claimed that they put them out in the elment's rain etc for a better cure .

now is that maybe the problem with these 6.2-6.5 not long cure time

Why do some go for so long and not break or crack ???

My 91 6.2 has 406 thousand on it. I had it apart 80 k ago (oil line let go) frt two rod brgs went out . I done a complete on it i.p. and injectors . with no mod's to the block. So why has this one not cracked ???

I think when i go to put my 6.5 back together i'am going to bench build it. once I have the bottom end done then i will place it on the engine stand .
maybe that will help the stress and alignment !!!! build it like ford says on the old 302 v-8 DO NOT hange from engine stand with out the crankshaft installed and torq. to spec.

Here is one more to think about

Maybe the lock-up converter has some to do with it

when the 350 lockup first came out they had problems with it locking up to early on off on off at city speeds' The convertors would fail and burn the tranny up. Many of these we would also find that the crankshaft had a large amount of end place . that on off of the convertor knocked out the crank brg's


maybe poll time

my 91 is standard still going

we are about an hour north of montreal in the laurentian mountains, valcourt is about an hour south and east of montreal, in 2000 my brother and i went sledding right in that area, not alot of snow there that year, it was like riding in sask lol. quebec has some of the best trail systems in the world, about 40000 km of groomed trails, but where we live the stupid rich people made noise and got the main 15 miles of trails closed because of noise, its the most important trail here, it links north, south, east, and west trails so we have no snowmobile trail here anymore, its just back country sledding here now, but its some of the best imo.... just pack a chainsaw along for the ride.....:eek:

"NO"



I started wrenching in 78 (tranny& diffy' ) and in 82 when in tech school we had an instructor that was a die hard dodge man. He had been to the factory & had many stories, some b s and some made sense. he had said that the engine block's where cast 12-18 months ahead of production and set out side to cure & weather . Then they were machined etc. after that time frame . He claimed that they put them out in the elment's rain etc for a better cure .

now is that maybe the problem with these 6.2-6.5 not long cure time

Why do some go for so long and not break or crack ???



that is pretty much how bill heath explained the 506 blocks to me and why they are junk, they went right from the mold to the machine shop with no curing.

We've heard the same thing about block curing time and I think it has real merit. Also I kind of figure that any motor that has high mileage without major cracks, has to have been done a little different (possible Friday casting?:D). After being in vehicle for so many years now, has got to be cured ( or all busted up).

I know that this has nothing to do with the natural cooling after casting and before the stresses of machining are inflicted on block, but just throwing it out there to have more input come back....:)

Bro says thats what a good site is all about..... exchanging ideas:D

i wonder late production block's sat around maybe had some cure time on them

Jeff (my brother) just saying that the early 90s (aka 599 time) GM sales were down because of 6BT and introduction of powerstroke.:eek:

Could be that less demand allowed the blocks to cure better before machining.

We also have a 81 no cracks..... introduction of Detroit Diesel to GM platform... demand limited because of 5.7L.:p:

after 1994 gm started to have more of a demand for the 6.5l in vans and cube vans, even motor home platforms, they changed the moulds to incorporate rear turbo, demand went up, less time for the blocks to cure correctly..

its all speculation, but it is sound thinking...:cool:

here are some pictures of our stud girdle thats going into our motor, no milling machines here, its all hand made, blood, sweat, etc....:D

What you make them out of ??? the engine you are installing them in is apart or running ???

they are made out of 1.5 inch angle x 3/8 thick, the pan is off the motor.

those look good and similar to mine. Will they clear the pan????

Here is mine;

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/Mikeyvon/P1010008-ra.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/Mikeyvon/maincapgirdle.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/Mikeyvon/P1010012-r.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/Mikeyvon/girdle.jpg

Mikey, wow is all I can say...

HI Mike, We did the mock up on a 6.2L, pan fit good. When transferred to the 6.5L,with the Hummer pan, the oil dipstick tube location in pan is approximately .200'' forward of position of same in 6.2L oil pan. So will require a minor mod then set to go. This set-up is actually 1 1/2'' X 2''. Next will be 1.5 X 1.5'', with the bolt holes moved .100'' towards the outside of girdle. This will eliminate relief machining to clear the interior bosses in pan.

Have you taken measurements to check if your pan will fit the suburban? By looking at it, I think Max did the square front specifically to clear. Nice you also have solid front axle.

We are impatient to fire it up, waiting yet for the harmonic dampers. They are one of the last pieces of our puzzle. If things go well, we'll fire up the red block and a 6.9L idi at same time.

Mikey, wow is all I can say...

thanks, to be clear I just wrote the check.

HI Mike, We did the mock up on a 6.2L, pan fit good. When transferred to the 6.5L,with the Hummer pan, the oil dipstick tube location in pan is approximately .200'' forward of position of same in 6.2L oil pan. So will require a minor mod then set to go. This set-up is actually 1 1/2'' X 2''. Next will be 1.5 X 1.5'', with the bolt holes moved .100'' towards the outside of girdle. This will eliminate relief machining to clear the interior bosses in pan.

Have you taken measurements to check if your pan will fit the suburban? By looking at it, I think Max did the square front specifically to clear. Nice you also have solid front axle.

We are impatient to fire it up, waiting yet for the harmonic dampers. They are one of the last pieces of our puzzle. If things go well, we'll fire up the red block and a 6.9L idi at same time.


sounds good. What is this going in again?

It should fit fine. There is quite a lot of room with a 4" lift on it as well.

I cannot wait to fire it up. I hope to have it in the frame rails this weekend.

That looks like a beefy girdle! They've got a P400 6500 Optimizer with a similar looking girdle (all 5 webs). But you have to fabricate your own oil pan.

hi mike, we are puttin it in a 1983 c-5000 gmc dump truck, with a sm-465, and hopefully a ranger od...:D

here a couple of pics of the truck.....

sorry, the engine pics are not so nice, its just the 350 anyways, but we will take pics when its a big gapping hole :eek: with no 350 or tranny

Not only am I lost in tjis post. But you guys are scaring the hell out of me. Anyone want to buy a 96 k2500 hd with 198k mi?

how much you lookin to get for it? whats wrong with it? why are you scared? go onto youtube, and search swb chevy 6.5l and check it out...... its awsome and it will calm your nerves....:D

how much you lookin to get for it? whats wrong with it? why are you scared? go onto youtube, and search swb chevy 6.5l and check it out...... its awsome and it will calm your nerves....:D

Cracking blocks, cranks, etc. what the heck is a girdle anyway

its a device for tying together the bottom main bearing caps for strength and rigidity, it was widely used in racing applications, and is a perfect addition for our motors, to prevent cracking issues with the center main bearing webs, there are a few 6.2/6.5 that have experienced this, the best blocks to use are cast with the 599 numbers.. and of course the new amg general 6.5l is improved, all this brings up an old saying.. if its not broke, dont fix it....

That was my final opinion. If it ain't broke after 125k miles. I'll just replace what are common failures. Ill add upgrades to make the motor run more efficiently and reliably while I save for that 6500 optimizer!

Cracking blocks, cranks, etc. what the heck is a girdle anyway

It's a device designed to hold all the big pieces together to keep them from being scattered along the highway when the engine lets go. :eek:

That was my final opinion. If it ain't broke after 125k miles. I'll just replace what are common failures. Ill add upgrades to make the motor run more efficiently and reliably while I save for that 6500 optimizer!

X2