The local track today said I couldn't run pane and N20 at the same time. O.k. to run them seperately. They stated the NHRA rulebook under general reg. 1:11. Anyone else run up against this, I'm going to contact NHRA and see if I can get this problem straightened out.

Thanks,
Rob

I run N2O w/ WMI w/o rules issues so far.

Sounds like liability issues.

The local track today said I couldn't run pane and N20 at the same time. O.k. to run them seperately. They stated the NHRA rulebook under general reg. 1:11. Anyone else run up against this, I'm going to contact NHRA and see if I can get this problem straightened out.

Thanks,
Rob

Peculiar. Gen. Reg. 1:11 states that propylene oxide is prohibited in all classes. Wrong regulation.

Gen. Reg. 1:9 states that nitrous can be used, but the pressurized fuel system may contain *only* nitrous; no other agents can be mixed in the pressurized nitrous system. The rule is silent as to separate pressurized systems using other fuels. Gen. Reg. 1:5 addresses propane as an alternate fuel system.

Provided your two pressurized systems are separate, each one contains only the substance it is supposed to contain, and they both meet the requirements specified in 1:5 and 1:9, they should be allowed.

I would suggest you call NHRA tech services (626-914-4761, Eric Lowe, Pat Cvengros, or director Danny Gracia) and ask if my interpretation is correct.

Neal Murphy
SFI certified tech inspector, license #DHD3, exp. 12/31/05.

Thanks, Hippie. My '05 rule book states 1:11 is the nitrous oxide reg. and 1:13 is the propylene oxide. If the reg. worded it like you wrote, I don't think we would have any issues.

My rulebook states "the use of any agents other than nitrous oxide as part of, or mixed with, this pressurized fuel system is strictly prohibited"

This track is saying the nitrous is being mixed w/pane in the intake. I told, and showed them, they are their own completely seperate systems. I'm the first diesel running this combo there. I'll contact the NHRA folks today, and let you know.

Thanks,
Rob

I will say some tracks and techs dont seem to like us or something??? I had a tech hasseling me about no blow down tube for my n2o when its mounted in my tool box in my bed??? I walked past a few N2O brawler cars with no blowdowns in the trunk(didnt see a firewall either and 2 cars with twin bottles mounted were the pass seat would be with no blow down:eek:

I would advise explaining yourself but being nice about it. They do hold the cards afterall. When they get to know ya and if you are deccent most of the time they will be more linient. One starting line guy told my bud that if I broke into the 11's he was going to have to give me the boot but would let me make another pass so I would have back to back passes so it would be "official" 11's

I've had great conversations with all the techs and track officials. I just turned off the pane bottles and disconnected the system for the day. I told them no problem, but that I'd like to get it straightened out. They are good people just trying to figure the right thing to do in a new situation. I've sent some emails and will post results.

Rob

The track I go to has no problems with it...

It might also help that tech inspector at the track owns a dmax and the racer works for NHRA.):h

Rob,
Did you get the issue figured out with using the N20 and Pane together?
I remember you writing about an issue running them together.

Ratlover,
Why would they ban you from the track if you got into the 11's? Are they jealous or am I missing somthing here?

No roll cage

They say I can go up to 11.5 with a factory power adder, can only go 12.0 with a non factory power adder. Thats what they told my buddy, they have never spoke to me. He stands at the line when I launch. The track guys at the line do say they much prefer when I spray http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif I guess they dont like black smoke as much as I do :confused:

The issue running both together, I think, is trans defueling and acting up with all the extra power. Co-pilot coming soon. If that doesn't do the trick, then I'll add the clutches for a suncoast stage IV. It's bugging me that I have the power, but can't get it all put together. Oh well, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Rob

Thanks, Hippie. My '05 rule book states 1:11 is the nitrous oxide reg. and 1:13 is the propylene oxide. If the reg. worded it like you wrote, I don't think we would have any issues.

My rulebook states "the use of any agents other than nitrous oxide as part of, or mixed with, this pressurized fuel system is strictly prohibited"

This track is saying the nitrous is being mixed w/pane in the intake. I told, and showed them, they are their own completely seperate systems. I'm the first diesel running this combo there. I'll contact the NHRA folks today, and let you know.

Thanks,
Rob

OK, my mistake. I should have stated that I was reading the '03 and '04 rulebooks. I guess a couple sections have been added. I should try to get an '05 rulebook; they weren't ready during SEMA last year.

Yes, the propane and nitrous are being mixed in the intake manifold. But the intake manifold is after the valves and jets in the pressurized systems. In a turbocharged diesel, the manifolds are part of two other pressurized systems, albeit low pressure.

I believe NHRA do not want different substances mixed in a high-pressure system (like N2O and propane) because mixing fuel with an oxygen supplier under high pressure is a recipe for disaster. This is really common sense. Well, at least common to folks reasonably versed in the art.

Your man might be considering the possibility of charge air blowing back into the N2O and/or propane systems after they're empty enough, which is still a recipe for potential disaster. If the pressure regulation and control systems have check valves to prevent back flow, this should never be a problem. (I'm not familiar with the construction of these control systems, and I don't know if check valves are a standard part of their construction.)

N

Most propane systems add pre turbo so its not under pressure or so I believe. Spray is generally added post turbo or into a pressurized system.

No roll cage


They say I can go up to 11.5 with a factory power adder, can only go 12.0 with a non factory power adder. Thats what they told my buddy, they have never spoke to me. He stands at the line when I launch. The track guys at the line do say they much prefer when I spray http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif I guess they dont like black smoke as much as I do :confused:


The Pure Street rules were originally added to allow factory cars to run quicker than 12.00 without a rollbar when the general rules wouldn't allow it (at that time).

Shortly after the Pure Street rules came out, NHRA changed the general rules to 11.49 & quicker, to keep in standard with IHRA rules (Yes, IHRA and NHRA somewhat work together like that). That's also when the new crankshaft centerline height limits came out that posed a problem with some trucks...

Currently, any vehicle running quicker than 11.49 requires a roll bar. In regards these trucks, if slower than that, you will now need a bar (unless the floor/firewall has been extensively modified). Doesn't matter if you have twins with oxide and pane, water/meth, water-to-air IC, etc....

If any of you plan to put a bar in, email me and I'll send you some suggestions... elowe@nhra.com

Eric

I've got a rulebook coming, and I'll read it carefully.

People have been running propane to richen up nitrous engines for awhile now (not just diesels) and I've never heard of anyone being kicked out yet.

Propane is safer than gasoline as a richening agent for nitrous, as propane does not puddle in the manifold. All the big backfires I've seen (and I've seen some big ones) have been when gasoline was injected into the manifold with the nitrous.

Super Pro, Pro, Sportsman (typical ET cars running slower than 7.50 in the quarter)



7.50 (*4.50) seconds or slower


FUEL
Racing gasoline, gasoline, alcohol, gasohol, diesel, ethanol,natural gas, and propane permitted. Nitromethane prohibited.







NITROUS OXIDE
Commercially available nitrous oxide permitted, including supercharged and turbocharged engines. Nitrous bottle(s) in driver compartment must be equipped with a relief valve and vented outside of driver’s compartment. Bottle(s) must be stamped with a DOT-1800 pound rating and permanently mounted (no hose clamps or tie wraps). Hoses from bottle(s) to solenoid must be high-pressure steel-braided or NHRA-accepted hoses. Commercially available, thermostatically controlled, blanket-type warmer accepted. Any other external heating of bottle prohibited. See General Regulations 1:11.

1:11 NITROUS OXIDE
Nitrous oxide permitted in E.T. classes and A/PM only. The use of any agents other than nitrous oxide as part of, or mixed with, this pressurized fuel system is strictly prohibited. All bottles must be securely mounted, stamped with minimum DOT-1800 pound rating, and identified as nitrous oxide. Nitrous oxide bottle(s) located in driver compartment must be equipped with a relief valve and vented outside of compartment. System must be commercially available and installed per manufacturer’s recommendations. Commercially available, thermostatically controlled blanket-type warmer accepted. Any other external heating of bottle(s) prohibited.


The above bold underline means no mixing of any other agent in with the nitrous.

Reason for the rule. NHRA tests Pro Mods to ensure they do not add nitromethane in the nitrous bottle. Doing this can be very benificial to a racer in terms of power if they know what they are doing, but can also be very dangerous.

LP is a fuel in relation to nitrous, no different than gas, or alcohol is when used on gas burner. There are a to of late model camaros, firebirds, buicks gns, vipers, vettes that run lp as the supplement fuel in when they run a nitrous system. Call Mike Flynn at Nitrous Supply and verify this if in question.

If the racer was being hassled, it's only becuase the tech inspector wasn't up to speed on the latest news.

Rob, I got your called and left a message for you on voicemail. If you still have questions, feel free to call me.

McRat, if you don't have a book by friday, I'll be at Fontona afternoon, I'll bring a couple extras.

Eric

Thanks Eric, after getting your message I contacted the head tech offical at the local track. He was not there last weekend and said he will do some checking on the rule and what happened at the track. He did say they dislike the amount of smoke the diesels are putting out. Of course, I told him if I could run the N20, there would be min. smoke. If he still has issues after checking, I'll give you a call. Thanks again for the quick reply.

Hey ratlover, while looking through the rule book, I noticed reg. 2:11 Rear End "four-wheel drive permitted in all stock eliminator cars and E.T. cars running 12.00 seconds or slower". There's a cyclone at our track running low 10's. I think he's running 4x4. How do people get around this? Not that I'll have to worry about it.:(

Rob

never read or heard of that one. I gota get my mitts on a book and read up. Thanks BTW Eric:)

Rob, that is currently being reviewed for a rule revision due to being out-dated.