Has anyone tried it? I seen a Trucks! show today and he made some using some kind of fantsy operation that looked expensive. But it looked rather easy. Is boi diesel have any affects long term? I might start doing that. You can make it for about .070 cents a gallon!

I haven't made any yet, however I have looked into it. I have a PDF file I can email to anyone that is interested (PM me if you want it). I don't think you can actually make it for $0.70 per gallon though. I think it will be more, especially if you account for the cost of the equipment/materials you will need. Also, it might be difficult to make enough to make it worth your while. Also, you need to make sure that the fuel is very CLEAN before you put it in your truck!

Did you check out the site?? For the kit that he used on Trucks is $3000. You would have to use it A LOT to make the biodiesel for only .70 a gallon. www.freedomfuelamerica.com

Did you check out the site?? For the kit that he used on Trucks is $3000. You would have to use it A LOT to make the biodiesel for only .70 a gallon. www.freedomfuelamerica.com (http://www.freedomfuelamerica.com)

Thats kinda what I was thinking, never checked into the price. I think you can make yout own kit, but proly won't be as good though.

I saw that show today, looks pretty easy. I wonder how hard it would be to make your own system.

Have a little read (http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2438472&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1). Just a bit more info.

The fuelmister is a POS.

The fuelmister is a POS.
Elaborate please

Well, maybe not a POS, but Ive heard that it costs about 5x the cost of making something like that yourself. I think that there are even other makers of stuff like that that are better and cheaper than the fuel mister.

Very interesting reading over at the STOP. Little cat fighting going on but its expected. Is there any problems with our trucks running 100% bio?? And what about BTU's?? Will we lose power from B100 or stay the same??

A couple of things I have learned from experimentation and investigation (I have made a number of small batches): 1) using SVO is more expensive than #2 2) So is commercial B95-100 in most locations 3) most instructions for making BD don't contain all the steps you need to do 4) almost all the WVO you find contains tallow and water 5) most of the processors I have seen cannot handle the heat needed to dewater all the WVO 6) hard PVC components have a short life expectancy 7) processors kits I have seen do not have a proper drain/cleaning design 8) metal components other than SS, bronze, brass will eventually corroid, 9) processor kits I have seen do not carry accurate directions 10) many of the website test/process directions were written many years ago and since than most WVO is a lot different that it was 10 years ago 11) BD from WVO needs to be washed 12) doing titration (testing) WVO is not as simple as described.

IMHO, in order to make your own you need either an experienced teacher or do a lot of reading and testing. Also, making a processor that will last a long time is not easy or cheap. Also, that Appleseed, made from a used 40 gal waterheater has some limitations: you cannot monitor inside condition, draining (esp glycerine) must be limited, and if you make a mistake in it cleaning will be a nitemare. . . .

manny;

who else makes a cheaper, better processor than 'fuelmasher' ?

homemade bio-diesel. Friend wants to know.

homemade bio-diesel. Friend wants to know.

go to HomeDepot get a 20 or 30 mic water filter kit. heat the WVO to ~130*f and use a pump to filter it. Once he gets done dewatering, titration, processing, and washing he can use any diesel filter (cat, racor, etc) he desires. In both filtrations it works a lot easier when the WVO/BD is heated to better luquidity. Generally, below 50-60*F the WVO still contains some gel and makes filtration nearly impossible. Once the processing is complete, and assuming a low cloud point, he should be able to filter it at room/garage temp (I assume garage temp >30*F?) down to 2 mic.

Having said all this, it will depend on what caliber of WVO he is dealing with and how well the supplier controls his WVO tank. Many dump theirs in bins outside and all kinds of crap and gel get caught in it. If he makes a deal with a supplier I would recommend he provide a tank with some kind of course filter (cheese cloth) to keep cigarette buts, pens, cups, shoes . . . from cloging his hose and pump.

PM sent

PM sent

?? didn't arrive - not to me??

Deadeye, the fuelmister is overpriced. Anyone with a wee bit of ingenuity and minimal mechanic skills could make one for 1/5 the price. There are many many many excellent posts and instructions on this site: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x

localb100.com is also great.

I think that making your own BD is great, but the ultimate goal is to get biodiesel to the pumps. Buying it retail will help encourage this. And now with the price rebate, I think it shouldnt be too hard to find it on the cheap. (About the same price as diesel)

I suppose that if you are using a large amount of diesel, making it would be a good idea for $$ savings, but I dont use much diesel/biodiesel in total, so I buy it. At least I would have someone to ***** at if the fuel damages something........;)

Manny;

I have read that forum before. Like this one there are + & - posts. . . . Also, I have not seen another complete processing kit for sale. Just parts. I have not used a FM but I examined one at IRP a month ago and saw several aspects which I did not agree with.

As for building one for $600.00 . . . . yes you could, if you want to do it with used components that may only last a year or two and has the risk of busting and dumping components in your shop, risking your health, rebuilding. . . .

I have researched cost, quality, componentsand design as well. . . . more info will be posted later as I get closer to a reliable, affordable solution.

...As for building one for $600.00 . . . . yes you could, if you want to do it with used components that may only last a year or two and has the risk of busting and dumping components in your shop, risking your health, rebuilding. . .

I don't mean to jump in to your discussion, but if you don't want to risk your health or your shop, don't make biodiesel. Most people gloss over it, but the process involves toxic and very flammable chemicals that if you aren't careful, can easily kill you. I'm a chemist and used to make methyl esters all day long for fatty-acid profiles on the GC. While the process is certainly easy enough for anybody to do, if you don't fully understand and account for all the hazards present in doing this on any larger scale, you are definitely running a risk.

My friend who ownes a diesel repair shop has the $3k FM. The first batch he made (40 gallons) he could not get the ph down. He then started making smaller batches and worked his way up to the systems full capacity. It does take getting the feel for. All batches go through a series of filters (not included with the FM).
Its funny some of the stories he tells about trying to get WVO espeically from chinnese restraunts. They will argue with him on how they already pay $30-$50 a load when he is offering to take it for free.:rolleyes:
I have run it in my 94 Dodge and it really quiets the motor down and the engine runs smoother. Milage went down a little and power was about the same.
We have a customer that ownes a company that has the contracts with most of the restraunts in San Diego for WVO pick up. He gets paid to pick it up and then he sells it to Mexico and they in turn make bio diesel out of it.

Hello,

I'm new to the forum, looking at purchasing a used Chevy 6.5L TD this coming weekend. However, I have owned VW TDIs for the last 5+ years and have been home brewing biodiesel for my VW for the last 2 summers. I have an extensive background in Chemistry, so the process is more second nature to me than perhaps to others, but let me see if I can lend a helping hand in this discussion.

First of all, my impressions of the fuel miester. Basically, if you don't have the time or the patience to build your own, and you have lots of extra cash to start this hobby, then go for it. However, it is not a very robust piece of equipment and the mixing mechanism for methoxide is awful and does not produce good quality fuel unless you are careful to mix your methoxide in a secondary container first.

Personally, I built an "appleseed" type processor that you can find all over the internet. Someone donated an 80 gallon electric water heater to me and I went from there. It has serviced me well these past two summers. I do mist wash my fuel and dry it in the sun in 5 gallon diesel cans I have painted black. I also use KOH instead of NaOH because of glycerine hardening issues I have heard with NaOH. I am somewhat lucky in that I found a good supplier of used grease. This is key in making good fuel. Please feel free to ask my any questions you'd like.

tim@timindy.com

Good luck,

Tim

chemvw,
I do have a question. I "cracked" the byproduct from making biodiesel with phosphoric acid (H3PO4). The methanol was then distilled out of the Glycerin. The resultant was then filtered. The problem is the odor. I started out with canola oil that had been used in garlic processing. The biodiesel has a pronounced garlic odor. The glycerin also has a garlic odor. The local soap maker turned their nose up at the offer of free glycerin. When burned in the truck, instead of smelling like french fries, it smells like burned garlic toast.
Any ideas on how to remove the garlic odor? Either pre or post processing?
thanks

I dont think you can do much to change the odor.

Well, I was afraid of that.
But, it is nothing more than an organic compound of some sort. I suspect that it is some sort of a ring with a radical branch. There should be some way to remove it.
Adding an essential oil (EO), just sort of masks the odor in the glycerin. As far as the exhaust goes, it might keep the tailgaters away. The ability to soot offenders has been greatly diminished with bioD.

I would have to concur that the odor of your grease will be the odor of your biodiesel. Unfortunately, I am no organic chemist, and if there were a simple reaction out there to thwart your garlic fiend, I am not aware of it.

But I bet you'd be good as a pizza delivery vehicle.:)

I have been interested in biodiesel for a while, actually had a 119 gallon vaporless processor for a while (but had to move, no room now). I am looking to get back into brewing, but need to hook up with another interested party with the space to set up a processor. Anyone in the Gilroy / Morgan Hill, California, area interested in giving it a go? I have sources for waste veg oil, methanol, KOH or NaOH, etc. I have most of the lab gear for titrations, and know where to get the gear for another processor. Sooo, if you have some space and want to turn out some biodiesel for about a $1 / gallon, drop me a line! :D

CJ

If biodiesel is so much cheaper how come these big trucking companies aren't making it themselves to put in their trucks? It seems like it would save them some bucks!

Time and the expense of paying someone to go get the used oil, and then processing it. Even a small fleet of trucks can burn over 500 gallons a day. On that scale, it would take a fairly large processor. Not to mention the tanks to hold the oil, waste product, and finished product. Then, they have the problem of waste disposal. Most trucking companies just do not need the added hassle in their daily schedules.

Well said,

Biodiesel can only be made cheaply ($0.80/gal or less) when one uses free waste grease from a restaurant, has a good supplier of cheap methanol and NaOH or KOH, and disposes of the waste properly through compost or candle making, etc. These are usually small scale operations.

When you think of a trucking fleet having to make enough biodiesel to run their fleet, you are usually talking about having to purchase new vegetable oil for processing, and right there you are probably going to spend >$1.80/gallon. So the cost comparison doesn't work out for people that need a lot of fuel. However, the other benefits like supporting the farming community by buying oil from their crops, the clean burning aspect, and the smell of course :) perhaps may outwiegh the increased cost. But I think trucking companies are having a difficult enough time currently staying afloat as it is with prices skyrocketing.

Maybe algae will solve all of our problems?

Hey Chem VW, how does your TDI run on the BD?

Im on B50 with it. I cannot tell any difference in the smell. Odd.

I am more interested in using BIO Diesel for home heating oil..........a boiler is less fussy that a Fuel injection system is and I can add some Kerosene or good old heating oil to cut it.......

with Heating Oil locked in at $2.29/gallon if I can get it down to a $ .80- $1.00 I can cut my costs by 60%........

If I have enough I can run some in the TDI and the Dmax........:cool:

I can always get a hot water tank, especially in my trade and I can get most of the other components........

I have been looking at making some but if it is going to take a long time to make enough fuel for a fillup then it's really not worth the $50.00 it costs me to fill-up........

My time is worth something as well............:cool:
.
.

You might try to buy biodiesel without road tax for that purpose. If you over order, oh well.

It is not simple wim bam boom to make, it takes some skill and experience. Im sure youd do fine.

Break even point depends a lot on your costs, and how much diesel you burn per month.

It is pry more time than you are looking to spend.

I say look on the biodiesel.org site, and find yourself a supplier, and buy the fuel in drums from him and add it as you like.

How much home heating oil would you guess one uses in an average winter? I have no idea about this stuff. Cold out here is 50F.

I drive 600 miles a week usually and so does the wife..........the TDI sips fuel at 43-48 mpg........so she fills up once a week and usually is 13 gallons........my truck with the weight I carry and the programming I run will usually sit between 16.5 and 18 mpg........

I avg $120.00 weekly and the wife is probably $30.00.........so figure $600/month on a good month...........plus another $200-$300 month on fuel for the boiler on AVG year round........more in the winter, less in the summer but average is probably closer to $225/month.......

I guess I am using $800-900 month between Diesel and Heating Fuel on avg...........:eek: ..........

This sucks..........now I am depressed................):h ):h ):h
.
.
:cool:
.
.
.

Ouch. Thats a lot of fuel.

Well, keep in mind that, at least for the winter, you will not be able to run anything past B20 or so. BD gels a lot easier than diesel. I suppose that if you park in a garage and dont let the vehicle get too cold, you could go higher. But even so.........

It would pry take more time to do all the stuff than it would be to work and just pay the bills.

Look on that biodiesel site. You may luck out and be able to buy it for cheaper than diesel.

Or see what it would take to convert your heater to waste vegetable oil, and pour that in straight.

I will concur that making your own fuel does take a lot of time and energy. There is a learning curve as well, don't expect your first batches to be high quality. Mistakes are bound to happen.

During the summer I try to make enough fuel to be self sufficient, but the occasional weekend getaways sometimes sap my biodiesel reserves, so then I have to mix in a little D-2. As for the winters, I don't make any fuel, cold here is 10 F or lower, and those are the highs. My TDI so far is running great on the stuff (I wash and dry my final product). The smell is not strong, and sometimes I can't even notice. The pickup is not all there, but I'm no lead foot. I'm in it for the mileage and the $$ savings. Plus me and my buddy probably only go through about 30-40 gallons a month between the two of us. Easy to keep up with.

I bought the 6.5L TD Chevy in hopes of running B20 or so in that, but I will just have to see. I have a feeling this truck has seen better days.
Sorry for the delayed responses, I'm busy trying to figure out what to do with the transmission in this Chevy.

Tim (chemvw)

so b20 is all the should be run in the duramax? sorry im just now tryin to learn about this stuff

I run B80+, others have run B100. It is just that im afraid that sustained use of B100 may eat through my fuel lines after a few years. Maybe not.......I dont know.

Dry, completly reacted fuel is what we want.

Buy it from a good source, or make it.

You can test its water content somewhat by yourself. Pour some BD in a clear container, and put it in the fridge. Once you know the freedstock of your particular biodiesel (and thus the rough cloud point) you can tell if your BD is safe to run. The water will make it cloud at a warmer temp.

Also, I think to test for unreacted glycerin, you can pour some water gently into your BD sample. The water should wash down through the fuel and fall out as clean and clear as it goes in.

manny, do you make your own?

No, I did for a bit, but I was unwilling to go through the grease collection. Too messy for me. I didnt want to have to store all the crap. I dont use that much diesel anyway. I had success on a small batch basis, but I tried two larger batches, and both turned to jelly. Fun to dispose of. My Break Even point would have been way far off.

I found a place that sells it cheaper (ASTM cert) than anything I can buy at the pump (by a decent amount), and if something takes a $hit, Ive got someone to yell at..........;)

I have made it with used oil from restaurants. No problems in the winter as long as you store it in a heated area or preheat it... Filtration is the key when useing used oil. Lubrication is great but not recommended to switch back and forth (diesel-biodiesel) because of the cleansing power of it. The first time you use it, it seems to clog filters so you need to change filters.

I was reading about someone just dumping new Veg oil right in the tank and burning it. Is it that easy or is it going to cause a problem down the road or does it even burn well enough mixed with the #2 to make it worth doing?

A guy in town dumped filter grease straight into his Mercedes. Went ok at first, during the warm summer months, but then he started to have problems towards the end of the tank. It is a lot more viscous than biodiesel and regular diesel, thus the pumps must work harder to push it though the injectors and what not. I would never recommend this in a vehicle you cared about. (Not unless you are installing a special secondary fuel tank that holds and heats the grease warm enough for injection.)
I do make my own fuel from waste grease. 40-50 gallon batches at a time. Washed and dried fuel only gets into my VW TDI tank, I have yet to run any in my 6.5L TD Chevy, but that is because I just purchased it and haven't had time to read up enough on the engine yet. If any one has comments, I'm all ears.
Tim (CHEMVW)

I was reading about someone just dumping new Veg oil right in the tank and burning it. Is it that easy or is it going to cause a problem down the road or does it even burn well enough mixed with the #2 to make it worth doing?
I've been blending in from 10-25% WVO for over 2 months now and so far so good

Do you think if a machine is built in which you feed used unfiltered vegetable oil, methoanol and lye on one end and the other end good quality biodiesel comes out with glecerine as by product? I have designed many manufacturing machines and plants and making a highly sophisticated biodiesel processor is not really difficult. The only thing is, the initial price of these machines may reach as high as $10,000+. So, few people have to share the cost.

The machine I am envisioning will do automatic titration, control methanol and lye flow, automatically filter water, recycle methanol, separate water glycerine and biodiesel automatically. The operator simply have to make sure that the input containers are full. There will be no need for the operator to even wear gloves. If needed, I can also make the machine that will fill a 10 gallon container and seal it automatically by the robot.

If I see a lot of interest in it, then it would be worth to take the project in hand. But I need help from all people around to make this decision.

Wien

I think someone has done it for about $3,000 (lowest I saw). If you could come in around a grand I'll bet you could retire in short order.

hannaco or chemvw;

question about titration: I have done more than 17 titrations on at least three different sources of WVO. I use a Checker1 pH meter (actually I have two and they have been calibrated with 4.01, 7.01, 10.01 buffer solutions). The last new WVO the pH reached 8.50 (two parallel titrations) but the oil was still settled. Every previous final titration the oil rised to the top and floated. On this last one, per the pH meter, the pH went up over 12 before the oil floated. I was additing only .3ml of stock solution + de-ionized H2O (per "better titrationn" as described by Journey to Forever instructions). I suspect the pH meters may have been incorrectly calibrated? Have you ever done a successful titration where the oil did not rise to the top? If floating is result of successiful titration, why not do it without a pH meter?

appreciate any feedback.

thanks.

A pH meter will not work in oil, it is meant for aqueous solutions only. Indicators are really the only reliable thing to use. If I remember correctly, the official AOCS (American Oil Chemists Society) method for free fatty acids stipulates phenolphthalien.

A pH meter will not work in oil, it is meant for aqueous solutions only. Indicators are really the only reliable thing to use. If I remember correctly, the official AOCS (American Oil Chemists Society) method for free fatty acids stipulates phenolphthalien.
I heard the same thing.

The pH meter is not used in oil for titration. It is used in a solution of 40ml of 99% Isoproply alcohol mixed with 4ml of dewatered WVO. The pH meter measures (as far as I can tell) how the solution changes as the stock solution (see post #45) is added. In all my experiments the oil starts on the bottom as NaOH+H2O solutions is added it changes eventually sending the oil into seperated, suspended condition just before it finally rises to the top. Based on past experience the pH does not reach 8.5 until the oil begins to float. Obviously, the pH can go beyond 8.5 if too much NaOH+H2O solution is added. Too much will result in turining the WVO into gloop if processed with too much lye . . . .

anyhow, yes the pH meter sometimes contacts the oil but it is always also contacting the rest of the components of the titration solution . . .

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#bettertitrate

OK enough education, I need some answers from some who have been down the same road for a while . . . .

thanks,

Depending on the type of electrode you have on your meter, once it touches the oil it may need cleaned before it will work properly again. The membrane gets coated with oil and it is useless. (trust me I know, I managed an oilseeds chemistry research lab for 2 years-had more than one grad student run out of phenolphthalein and decide the pH meter would be quicker) I am not even sure I would trust a pH meter in the alcohol if there wasn't any oil present. The membranes in the electrodes are made for aqueous solutions and when you start putting them in less polar solutions I don't think you can predict how they will react.

I read the method you linked to, and I am not quite sure what they he is trying to accomplish. A better site for all aspects of biodiesel or WVO is

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751

Do a search on that site for journey to forever and see what everyone there has to say about it. Be sure you have plenty of time, because the reading is extensive. From the ones that Keith flat out stole ideas from then pawned them off as his own to the ones he just managed to p*** off with his arrogant *ss attitude, there are plenty of people to offer their opinion.

ok habanero, thanks I will do some more investigation/reading. I will also devise a method of assuring that the electrode does not sit against the bottom where the oil starts . . .

I don't intend to argue about this with anyone but if there is a member that has been making biodiesel for a while and titration it will be helpful to hear about their titration processes and results.

I have tried phenolphthalein as well and, per my experience, have not had much success with it.

anyhow, thanks again.

BTW, I just called up that link and recognized it from previous research. I will do some more reading but I suspect that forum is like this one( and the rest of the world . . .) full of opinions, lies, truth, anger, jealousy, and, best of all, desire to help others. Anyhow, its not just reading . . . .

cheers,

...I have tried phenolphthalein as well and, per my experience, have not had much success with it.

anyhow, thanks again.

BTW, I just called up that link and recognized it from previous research. I will do some more reading but I suspect that forum is like this one( and the rest of the world . . .) full of opinions, lies, truth, anger, jealousy, and, best of all, desire to help others. Anyhow, its not just reading . . . .

cheers,

I agree with your last statement. While that forum has a lot of excellent information, it surely does have its share of personal conflict (Lord knows I have been involved in enough over there).

I forgot to add in my last post yesterday, the reason those methods stipulate 8.5 as the endpoint of the titration, is that is the phenolphthalein end-point.

Also, to address your original question (sorry, didn't look past the pH meter part earlier) the floating oil has nothing to do with titration end-point. That is a product only of the density of the solution. As you add NaOH solution (or just plain water would be the same as it is more dense than the IPA), the density goes up and eventually will be high enough the oil will float. If your oil doesn't have much FFA, then there won't be enough NaOH solution to neutralize it that the density of the solution will be high enough for the oil to float.

Also be sure you are thoroughly stirring or shaking the solution after each addition of NaOH. In a former life I worked in a lab that did limestone certification, and when doing the back-titrations the method they had employed was using a mechanical stirrer with a small stirring bar. I was taught a very specific titration technique involving swirling the solution by hand, so that was what I did when doing the limestone work and didn't use the stirrer. We found my results were different, and more repeatable, than the results they were getting with the stirrer. Switched stir bars to a larger one, and their titrations became much more precise and nearly identical to mine. Moral of the story was their little stir bar was not big enough to thoroughly stir the solution thus the results were skewed. Proper stirring is one of the first rules of proper titration technique.

Stirred, not shaken?

OK, just to add to the confusion. I used phenolphthalein as a cross check to the PH meter. I use one of the dual probe sensors. Cole-Parmer sells a nice one with BNC connector. VWR also sells good replacement elements. What I found was that the oil/alcohol mix had to be warm at the time of the titration. At the point where the PH would change was the correct point of the titration. The change usually took the form of a 3+ PH jump. A second sample was then titrated using phenolphthalein. The phenolphthalein would change color at about the same point as the PH meter changed. Usually within +/- .1 ml. This was varified in small 5 gallon test batches.

OK, just to add to the confusion. I used phenolphthalein as a cross check to the PH meter. I use one of the dual probe sensors. Cole-Parmer sells a nice one with BNC connector. VWR also sells good replacement elements. What I found was that the oil/alcohol mix had to be warm at the time of the titration. At the point where the PH would change was the correct point of the titration. The change usually took the form of a 3+ PH jump. A second sample was then titrated using phenolphthalein. The phenolphthalein would change color at about the same point as the PH meter changed. Usually within +/- .1 ml. This was varified in small 5 gallon test batches.

those pH meters are $$$. when using the pheolpathalein did you also heat the oil/IPA mix? if the oil contacted the pH sensor did you remove the meter and clean it? simple green seems to work well on the oil, of course rinse afterwards.

Also, should the meter be stored in buffer solution, as suggested by a seller I found on e-bay?

I have been considering habanero's post and trying to figure how to insert the meter without contacting the oil . suggestions, please.

another question. I have done several batches with different amounts of methonal. most WVO has a lot more tallow in it that in the old days when some BD instructions were written. I found that using only 20% resulted in as many as 4 different layers of goop/crap settling at the bottom. I then redid batches using between 22% and 25% meth. The higher level ddi a much better job of reducing and consolidating the goop. However, I do not know how to calculate the correct amount of meth. Is there a method for calculation or is it just trial and error?

...I have been considering habanero's post and trying to figure how to insert the meter without contacting the oil . suggestions, please.

There really is no way. Here's the rub: to get good titration results, you have to mix the solution thoroughly. If you mix the solution thoroughly, you often will end up with an emulsion and the oil won't completely separate out. Even if you think it is separated out, it may not all be and it doesn't take much at all to plug a membrane. On that subject, I would be extremely careful cleaning your probe with any harsh detergent. Those are very sensitive instruments and are extremely (EXTREMELY) easy to damage. The worse part is you may damage it a little bit and not know it.

I don't know how I can stress it any more; pH meters are not the correct thing to use for this operation. I went through 4 years of undergrad chemistry education, and you know how many times I used a pH meter to do an acid/base titration? The answer is 0! Indicators are much simpler (KISS principle), cheaper, and really are more accurate. A pH meter is only a secondary method referenced to an indicator anyway. The meter works okay in aqueous solutions if you don't happen to have an indicator handy, but in any type of nonpolar solution they just cannot be trusted.

As to your question about methanol amount, try asking it over on the infopop forum. It may even be found in a search.

ok, thanks for your help. I will give it a try and hope to get time to do some more reading this weekend.