This is the pump out of a customers PPE built, ATS tranny, with about 90K on the truck and 30k on the tranny. He runs an old version of the Hot Xcellerator and a Duramaximizer. I would be glad to hear what the experts think...

I chose the purple background for you, Mackin...

The Pump Looks a little broken.

Yeeeeeeeeep, that's my proffessional opinion...........definently broken!!!! ):h

I said I would like to hear what "the experts think", not the Cananadians:D J/K, Yeah, I would say it is a little broken, but why?

Has anyone else had this problem?? cood be just a fluke... or maybe from the higher pressures. have you contacted ATS on this, I would like to hear what they have to say.

Ok dumb question, Were the dowl pins in the trans and converter bolts tight?

Take it from some one who's broken a lot of thing's in his lifetime.:exactly:


It's broken. :agreed:

I dunno, I didn't take it apart, but our tranny guy said he couldn't see any reason for this to have happened...Wait a minute... I just asked him he said dowel pins were there and converter bolts were tight.Ok dumb question, Were the dowl pins in the trans and converter bolts tight?

Hey Max, I had a truck in here at work about 1 year ago and I was running it on the hoist after replacing the nsbu switch and servicing the trans. It was running at about 30 mph for about 1 minute and all of a sudden I hear this grinding noise and the rear wheels quit moving. Checked trans pressure, no pressure. Removed trans and tear down pump, and it looked just like yours. Have no clue as to the cause. I have ran many vehicles on the hoist and never had any other problem. I just figured it was my turn for bad luck. Luckily the truck was still under warranty. I replaced the pump assy, (no metal was spread through the trans beacuse when the pump broke, no more fluid movement), put the trans back together, installed in truck and it ran just great. I still don't know why.

I chose the purple background for you, Mackin...


Thank you! :)

Hard call what happened

WARNING: Wildass guess approaching, wear suitable protective boots -

Material was over-hardened, and clearances allowed flex. As time went on, a crack developed at one of the tooth roots. When the crack propagated all the way through,the metal flexed from tooth loading, and SNAP, chain reaction.

To determine if this was the cause, get the larger fragments Magnafluxed and look for other cracks starting. If that was the case, it would be wise to Magnaflux both components during a "race-prep", and discard units that are showing "invisible" cracks.

How many miles after install? I need to see the back half of the pump. Pressure did not do this . Installation did from my experience. Were the pump gears aligned ( where were the dots?) How tight were the bolts from the stator support to the pump. Was the install done with the converter mounted to the flywheel? Ben, give me a call.

How many miles after install? I need to see the back half of the pump. Pressure did not do this . Installation did from my experience. Were the pump gears aligned ( where were the dots?) How tight were the bolts from the stator support to the pump. Was the install done with the converter mounted to the flywheel? Ben, give me a call.

Echoed my thoughts..

No need for magnaflux, I can see cracks starting at every tooth that isn't already broken. As far as the pump gears aligning, pics on the way...

Since the parts are useless, I'd suggest sending them to Allison with a brief letter. They might be concerned with their heat-treat or material procurement.

Pics of the pump gears as they were meshed...

Picture on bottom right shows a thin line on inner part of gear like the converter was not all the way in.

By the way, thanks guys. As you can tell, I don't speak ATF very well. All I know is that when you pour the red stuff in something magical happens and the vehicle begins to move:D

Upon further disassembly, it was also determined that the output shaft bearing was not installed by PPE. Possibly this caused the scoring and eventual failure of the pump gears?

Again I'm no expert, But leaving a bearing out of a transmission can't be good

Something went wrong MR. Jones

Terribly wrong. :(

Material was over-hardened, and clearances allowed flex. As time went on, a crack developed at one of the tooth roots. When the crack propagated all the way through,the metal flexed from tooth loading, and SNAP, chain reaction.


Take a piece to a machine shop and have them test the rockwell hardness on it. I'm sure SuperDiesel has one in his shop... You would still need someone from Allison to disclose what the hardness is supposed to be though. :confuzeld Go Fish.

Take a piece to a machine shop and have them test the rockwell hardness on it. I'm sure SuperDiesel has one in his shop... You would still need someone from Allison to disclose what the hardness is supposed to be though. :confuzeld Go Fish.

Could also test some other ones to compare them.

It is pretty apparent that the outer gear got real hot, as it is the only one with discoloration and cracks. The backside of the gear has galling and scoring, as well as the pump housing it rides in. My guess is that metal contamination from the lack of thrust bearing eventually caused this, which caused the gear to get HOT and come apart. PPE is not standing behind this due to the mileage that has passed. Evidently some thief went in there and stole the bearing in the night... Mike, this gentleman might be giving you a call today about purchasing a complete unit...

I think the root cause is becoming obvious, but if'n any of you need metallurgical stuff done, I do it every day.....send 'er over. :)

Did the bearing fairy leave ya a BUCK ????????.....:p:

That sucks......:mad: .....maybe PPE will say you wore it out and that's why it was metal on metal...........:eek:

T:rolleyes: NY
.
.

He had us crate it up to send back to PPE for some more damage... Wonder what they will leave out this time? He still thinks the world of PPE...

This is going to get good. We will see how PPE handles a problem. If this was done in my shop there would be no time limit on the warranty. My main concern is the customer and his happiness.:D

mike

This is going to get good. We will see how PPE handles a problem. If this was done in my shop there would be no time limit on the warranty. My main concern is the customer and his happiness.:D

mike

I couldn't agree more.....if the bearing was left out, then they ought to own this thing and be happy that the customer didn't get in some real trouble (accident) as a result.

I don't think there should be a statute of limitations on gross negligence.

This is going to get good. We will see how PPE handles a problem. If this was done in my shop there would be no time limit on the warranty. My main concern is the customer and his happiness.:D

mike

his? I guess us girls are SOL? ;) ):h

I even gave him your # Mike...I dunno, some people...

Upon further disassembly, it was also determined that the output shaft bearing was not installed by PPE. Possibly this caused the scoring and eventual failure of the pump gears?

According to your photos looks like the bearing is there, therefore installed by PPE, and has clearly welded itself to the gear...... Take another careful look, since this bearing sits inside this gear..... If the bearing was not there you would see a clear recess in the inner part of the gear....

Is this the same transmission your dealership opened up not too long ago you had posted about on this forum about pump bolt washers leaking?
Mikes correct, if when you re-installed the torque converter and did not clock it correctly in pump as the mark/damage on the gear indicates, you could most certainly have caused pump failure in this case......

Also,
Looks like damage like this to the bearing was caused by the slip ring in the rear not aligned with oil hole on shaft, causing oil starvation to this bearing in particular, usually could happen when care is not taken while seperating front pump case accessing rotating assy, when rotating assy moves, slip ring could come of, and can not be re-align from the front, the rear of trans must be opened or serviced.....Did you open the rear of trans at that time and double check slip ring to make sure it did not shift?


Hope this helps:ro)

I dunno, I didn't work on it... Remember, I don't speak ATF, but I do appreciate your ideas/opinions. This tranny was resealed in our shop by our tranny tech about 25k ago IIRC. I will relay your thoughts to him.

By viewing your post history, you obviously have a special place in your heart for PPE. Why don't you just go to the shop and look at it, you should be able to tell alot more then, than by my crappy pics. I should also mention that nobody that knows the owner of this truck is suprised that he had a failure. He drives like he stole it 24/7, even at/above GVWR. So who knows at this point. He came to me for answers, I came to the Diesel Place for help...

I dunno, I didn't work on it... Remember, I don't speak ATF, but I do appreciate your ideas/opinions. This tranny was resealed in our shop by our tranny tech about 25k ago IIRC. I will relay your thoughts to him.

By viewing your post history, you obviously have a special place in your heart for PPE. Why don't you just go to the shop and look at it, you should be able to tell alot more then, than by my crappy pics. I should also mention that nobody that knows the owner of this truck is suprised that he had a failure. He drives like he stole it 24/7, even at/above GVWR. So who knows at this point. He came to me for answers, I came to the Diesel Place for help...

My posts contain facts and my opinions.
As I view your post History ("I even gave him your # Mike...I dunno, some people...") you obviously without a reasonable doubt have a special place in your heart for Mike L. (nothing wrong with that, Ive also heard nice things about Mike L.) we are all here to help each other and find correct answers to problems.
By the way your photos are very detailed, Ive seen enough, nice job.....:)

True, and I really do appreciate all opinions, regardless of what side of the fence they are from. I'd rather know it all, than just half:cool:

Lube collar missalignment on mainshaft would not have cause this imho. That would create a lack of lubrication and discolor planetary gears.

Lube collar missalignment on mainshaft would not have cause this imho. That would create a lack of lubrication and discolor planetary gears.

Interesting,
So it is ok to not feed this bearing with oil?

How did it fail and weld itself to the gear if it was not created by a lack of lubrication?
Remember, this bearing is inside the planetary gear housing.....The area where lubrication was in question....

Were the planetary gears discolored also?

Interesting,
So it is ok to not feed this bearing with oil?

How did it fail and weld itself to the gear if it was not created by a lack of lubrication?
Remember, this bearing is inside the planetary gear housing.....The area where lubrication was in question....

Were the planetary gears discolored also?

The mainshaft lube hole lubricates all the gears, not just the needle bearing. There would be a darkening of the planet housing directly in proportion to the pinion pins if it had a lack of lube. I do not see that in the pictures, so I seriously doubt your diagnosis. I would have to look at the trans myself to be able to determine what might have happened.
Your first question in this post is pretty lame and uncalled for.
mike

According to your photos looks like the bearing is there, therefore installed by PPE, and has clearly welded itself to the gear...... Take another careful look, since this bearing sits inside this gear..... If the bearing was not there you would see a clear recess in the inner part of the gear....

Is this the same transmission your dealership opened up not too long ago you had posted about on this forum about pump bolt washers leaking?
Mikes correct, if when you re-installed the torque converter and did not clock it correctly in pump as the mark/damage on the gear indicates, you could most certainly have caused pump failure in this case......

Also,
Looks like damage like this to the bearing was caused by the slip ring in the rear not aligned with oil hole on shaft, causing oil starvation to this bearing in particular, usually could happen when care is not taken while seperating front pump case accessing rotating assy, when rotating assy moves, slip ring could come of, and can not be re-align from the front, the rear of trans must be opened or serviced.....Did you open the rear of trans at that time and double check slip ring to make sure it did not shift?


Hope this helps:ro)

If you had a lack of lubrication do you not think the rest of the gear train would also show that? Since the lube has to go to the gear set and bearing or not anywhere, the gears should show signs of lack of lubracation................ but they don't. What I can tell for sure is the gears transfered metal between them selves as if there was no bearing present. Possible causes could be no bearing upon assemble or end play set incorrectly causing bearing to destroy itself. In either case something was installed improperly. The fact that the transmission had to be repaired before and now this doesn't speak very highly for the builder. Now will see how well they stand behind what they sell and everyone can come to there own conclusion.

The mainshaft lube hole lubricates all the gears, not just the needle bearing. There would be a darkening of the planet housing directly in proportion to the pinion pins if it had a lack of lube. I do not see that in the pictures, so I seriously doubt your diagnosis. I would have to look at the trans myself to be able to determine what might have happened.
Your first question in this post is pretty lame and uncalled for.
mike

As I read all these posts, looks like the Stealer, I mean Dealer is trying to cover their tracks......
I recall a friend of mine had to have his TTS powered truck towed to a Stealer for a no start condition, they blamed the no start on the TTS program as damaging the computer, turns out he had bad injectors and could not build pressure in fuel system, another mis-diagnosis by the Stealer/Dealer......

Looks like this Stealer/Dealer is Buddies with Mike L....... You make the decision!

Now, whats uncalled for? (ethics/truth)

KEG
Why is this customer not taken care of and back on the road? Why has this whole story been twisted around to become my fault? I never saw the truck or the customer. Why is Ben and his dealership now become a stealership? Why have you taken over for marksrt43? Seems all you guys can't see the obvious and are all in cahoots.:eek: Be interesting to see if you are all one person. Hmmmmmm.
mike

As I read all these posts, looks like the Stealer, I mean Dealer is trying to cover their tracks......
I recall a friend of mine had to have his TTS powered truck towed to a Stealer for a no start condition, they blamed the no start on the TTS program as damaging the computer, turns out he had bad injectors and could not build pressure in fuel system, another mis-diagnosis by the Stealer/Dealer......

Looks like this Stealer/Dealer is Buddies with Mike L....... You make the decision!

Now, whats uncalled for? (ethics/truth)

KEG

How did you get to this conclusion? If your saying this because the stealer/dealer repaired the leak............ who's fault is it that it leaked in the first place! Also the most common repair for a front bolt leak is to remove the bolt, clean and reinstall with silicone on the bolt threads. If this was the repair done to the transmission it has nothing at all to do with this failure. The pictures are here and the stealer/dealer only took the pictures. The trans failed plain and simple............ how or why is open for debate. I can assure you from the picture there was lubrication present but I have no way to know if there was or was not a bearing when the transmission was put together. If there was a bearing to start with then the only logical explanation for what is showen would be the end play was not set properly cause bearing failure. If this were the case there should be parts of the needles floating around in the transmission. If there are none then there never was a bearing. In either case it looks to be a PPE caused problem. Since the transmission is going back to them we will have to wait and see the out come before making any decisions. If they step up and take care of it then file it into the can that says $hit happens, if not then file it into Buyer Beware can.

Let's state some fact's here.

The customer brought his truck to us in june of 04 for our stage 4 upgrade with approx. 20,000 miles on it. We installed the stage 4 and he drove the truck for approx 58,000 additional miles, and developed a leak at the pump bolt washers. He took the truck to his nearest DEALER and they attempted to repair the leak. The dealership repaired the leak, however, the customer stated they had a problem getting the converter all the way seated in the transmission. After the repair, the customer stated the transmission did not feel the same(felt sluggish) and made a slight whining noise, which the DEALER stated was a normal turbo sound. The customer drove another 10,000 miles at which time he lost all propulsion (truck would not move). He took the truck back to the DEALER and they stated that PPE did not install a bearing, which led to the damage to the transmission. Turns out that the P3 sun gear bearing was installed (note photos in next post) and the P3 planetary, part # 29531124 was heat damage as per Mike L. and Diesel Techs internet diagnosis of lack of lubrication.....

Pictures to follow......

[B]FACTS ARE STATED:

Let's state some fact's here.

The customer brought his truck to us in june of 04 for our stage 4 upgrade with approx. 20,000 miles on it. We installed the stage 4 and he drove the truck for approx 58,000 additional miles, and developed a leak at the pump bolt washers. He took the truck to his nearest DEALER and they attempted to repair the leak. The dealership repaired the leak, however, the customer stated they had a problem getting the converter all the way seated in the transmission. After the repair, the customer stated the transmission did not feel the same(felt sluggish) and made a slight whining noise, which the DEALER stated was a normal turbo sound. The customer drove another 10,000 miles at which time he lost all propulsion (truck would not move). He took the truck back to the DEALER and they stated that PPE did not install a bearing, which led to the damage to the transmission. Turns out that the P3 sun gear bearing was installed (note photos in next post) and the P3 planetary, part # 29531124 was heat damage as per Mike L. and Diesel Techs internet diagnosis of lack of lubrication.....

Pictures to follow......

[b]FACTS ARE STATED:

I gave no diagnosis. I stated that there was lubrication. Furthermore; If the converter was miss-installed, the pump would have failed within a couple of miles, not 10, 000. I have seen this occur thousands of times, how about you? Do not put words in my mouth. If the pictures you are sending are from the recieved trans from this customer, they cannot be considered valid as you had no witness that is unbiased to substantiate the facts. You could have done this teardown in my shop or Transgo with cameras and wittnesses ( you still are friends with Transgo, right?)
I have not put any blame on PPE as I have not seen the transmission and probably never will. I do question the defensiveness. I would have made this go away, were it my problem.

Hey PITA good to see you get over here. From the pictures posted the gear only showed heat damage where the bearing should have been. If there was no lubrication you would also have seen the same damage to the rest of the gear set, why would you suppose there is none? It certainly is not a lack of lubrication. My guess would be that the end play was set a little too tight and the fact that it was lubricating is what kept it alive this long. If the customer drove it 10,000 miles after the first repair it would have never made it that long with no lubrication....... that is a fact. Now since the main pump failed as well what caused that? Lack of lubrication too.... Metal on metal will only go so far before it tears things up, my bet is 100 miles tops. so this leaves 9,900 that it ran on something.....

Sounds Like Mike L. and Diesel Tech really have an agenda here! It's obvious Diesel Tech does not understand Lack of Lubrication and he does not want to understand it. Every chance he gets, he wants to slam PPE! Sounds like the same people to me ie., (Mike L & Diesel Tech). Are they all in cahoots? ):h


BadMan. :exactly:

KEG
Why is this customer not taken care of and back on the road? Why has this whole story been twisted around to become my fault? I never saw the truck or the customer. Why is Ben and his dealership now become a stealership? Why have you taken over for marksrt43? Seems all you guys can't see the obvious and are all in cahoots.:eek: Be interesting to see if you are all one person. Hmmmmmm.
mike

Mike L.
If any story twisting was done it was by you and the Diesel Tech Gang in the begining of this thread.....
Maybe you should be a little more objective instead of bashing of others.
It is clear to everyone that you and Diesel Tech are buddies and are against PPE.
Not sure why? Did they do something to you?
I also noticed you like to attack people that stand up for PPE.
I don't see PPE out here bashing you, and I am sure you would not want them to air your dirty laundry here....
This forum is to provide helpful info to readers, and is not for gang banging....

I will be at the DHRA event, hope to say hello to you there.....:)

This truck all of you are talking about belongs to me. I can not believe all the miss information. first of all my truck never had a tranny leak that was a miss diagnoice and they rebuilt my pump at that time to cover there --- for warranty reasons. second of all a non certified mechanic re-installed my tranny and had a extremly hard time doing so and two other mechanics wittnessed this at the time, as a matter of fact one of them has been writting in this thread.PPE has been nothing but good to me and the tranny has been repaired and being sent back to me. The cause of damage was insalling the torque converter wrong and tighting the bell nousing to the block then realizing the torque conevrter would'nt spin took the tranny back out reset the converter and re-installed. Failure to the bearing was do to when the pump was rebuilt the oil washer was not checked for posioning and that was told to me by the mechanic. So in conclusion te dealership is at fault and they are taking care of all cost

To Fast,
This sound like the truth of the matter.

Drive safe
Tom

Can someone upload the photo's for me, I tried and it either wont let me or I can not figure it out! Thanks...

Can someone upload the photo's for me, I tried and it either wont let me or I can not figure it out! Thanks...

Send them to me at dream749@aol.com and I will host them

Mike L.
If any story twisting was done it was by you and the Diesel Tech Gang in the begining of this thread.....
Maybe you should be a little more objective instead of bashing of others.
It is clear to everyone that you and Diesel Tech are buddies and are against PPE.
Not sure why? Did they do something to you?
I also noticed you like to attack people that stand up for PPE.
I don't see PPE out here bashing you, and I am sure you would not want them to air your dirty laundry here....
This forum is to provide helpful info to readers, and is not for gang banging....

I will be at the DHRA event, hope to say hello to you there.....:)

Let's air out my dirty laundry right now. I'm game.
mike:D

Can someone upload the photo's for me, I tried and it either wont let me or I can not figure it out! Thanks...

Here you go

http://fuzzydiceracing.com/k/ppe1.jpg

http://fuzzydiceracing.com/k/ppe2.jpg

http://fuzzydiceracing.com/k/ppe3.jpg

http://fuzzydiceracing.com/k/ppe4.jpg

http://fuzzydiceracing.com/k/ppe5.jpg

It is clear to everyone that you and Diesel Tech are buddies and are against PPE.
Not sure why? Did they do something to you?

Lets just say I have dealt with PPE personally and do not feel this forum is the place to discuss it. I have only pointed out what can be seen in the photos presented in this thread. What was and was not done before and after the photos were taken I have no idea but it seems the people involved can not keep there story straight and that's something for all to wonder why. :wtf:


Sounds Like Mike L. and Diesel Tech really have an agenda here! It's obvious Diesel Tech does not understand Lack of Lubrication and he does not want to understand it. Every chance he gets, he wants to slam PPE! Sounds like the same people to me ie., (Mike L & Diesel Tech). Are they all in cahoots? ):h
BadMan. :exactly:

Badman or should I say Joe from PPE,

If I do not understand lubrication please explain it to me. Please show me how the surrounding gears in the photos provided shows no sign of heat damage which would be seen with a lack of lubrication,
http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5165&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1118181791 (http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5165&d=1118181791) since the oil that would lubricate the tore up bearing area would also lubricate these four gears as well. :eek: I do not need to slam PPE as you do that all by yourself. Maybe we need to have GhettoSled explain it again.





We installed the stage 4 and he drove the truck for approx 58,000 additional miles, and developed a leak at the pump bolt washers.


This truck all of you are talking about belongs to me. I can not believe all the miss information. first of all my truck never had a tranny leak that was a miss diagnoice and they rebuilt my pump at that time to cover there --- for warranty reasons. ...........................................

Failure to the bearing was do to when the pump was rebuilt the oil washer was not checked for posioning and that was told to me by the mechanic. So in conclusion te dealership is at fault and they are taking care of all cost

To Fast
Look at the previous quotes, one being from Dan at PPE and the other being from you. Something is wrong here. Also, there is no oil washer in an Allision but yet an oil hole in the main shaft that needs to be properly aligned when installed. There would have been no reason to pull the pump and main shaft for a bolt leak as Dan from PPE has stated you had. If said hole was misaligned there would have been a lack of lubrication not only to the bearing area but to the gears as well. Damage would have been shown on the gears as well but there is none. If this hole was misaligned I doubt your truck would have made it 100 miles but yet it went 10,000. If it's truly your truck I'm glad you being taken care of as that is the best that can be done.

Quote: (From Diesel Tech)

Badman or should I say Joe from PPE,

If I do not understand lubrication please explain it to me. Please show me how the surrounding gears in the photos provided shows no sign of heat damage which would be seen with a lack of lubrication,
since the oil that would lubricate the tore up bearing area would also lubricate these four gears as well. I do not need to slam PPE as you do that all by yourself. Maybe we need to have GhettoSled explain it again.






Hello Mr. Diesel (Internet) Tech, :)

If by any chance you understood transmissions, you would be the first to know that when the sleeve on the shaft is not clocked correctly, you will still get some oil flow. However, NOT THE FULL REQUIRED AMOUNT!!!!!!!! :eek: Please, please, please, study your Allison Transmission Service Guide further. :exactly: :exactly: :exactly: :exactly: :exactly: :exactly: :exactly: :exactly: :exactly: :exactly:


Diesel Tech (Confused Again?) :confused:

This is BadMan, not Joe from PPE! (Damm, another mis-diagnosis by Diesel Tech!) :ro)

So Joe or BadMan which ever name you would like to use today, if the main shaft hole is mis aligned and lube is not the required amount which goes first................. the parts closest to the lube hole which would get the most oil or the furthest away?
If you really knew you would know that all parts being lubed would show signs of heat damage from lack of lubrication but your the expert here and you already know that. Then when you look at the parts and see no heat damage on anything except the part closest to the lube hole you should have wondered why but then again your the expert here. If the surrounding gears failed from lack of lubrication I could buy into your BS but since you say your not Joe at PPE how would you know anyway! You have never seen the transmission in question just as I have not so the only thing to go on is the pictures presented in this post. Since the dealer disassemble the transmission for pictures you or I will never know where the lube hole was either as they had it out before you event knew about it. The pictures clearly show that the surrounding parts are fine with no heat checking or galling, so if the bearing didn't get enough oil the gears would not of had a chance to live as they would have had none! So Joe when you done trying to cover your A$$ and :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: to the customer just step up and fix it right this time:lol:

Hey BadMan/Joe

I forgot to answer one thing that you seem to have brought up about the Allison Transmission Service Guide. You might want to go to section 6 page 8 and 9 of the Factory Service Manual. Yes, I have all the Factory Allison manuals to refer too. This is the section where it tells you how to install the main shaft,P-2 and P-3 sun gears. What's funny is there is no mention at all about aligning the oil hole you seem to think caused the problem. The only ones to say it was necessary to align the oil hole was Transgo in their manual but then again what does Allison know! However, the Allison Factory manual does warn you twice about incorrectly installing the thrust bearing assemble onto the P2 and P3 sun gears backward as this could result in the destruction of the transmission(kind of what happened to this transmission).:badidea:

Most of the Allisons I have worked on have not had the oil hole aligned nor the C3, C4 clutch slots lined up. This info came from Transgo and is the best way to do it, but not criticle.

Who are all of you out there talking about my truck?????Iwas not aware this site was happening and it is pretty sad when most of you have no idea of the events that led to this or what is bieng done to fix it.Once again I will state the tranny is fixed and the dealer is at fault and they are paying for it. The miss comunication has come from the dealer to PPE as they have made several mistakes(the dealer) on my truck.As for the oil leak that never was the dealer told that to PPE until today after me talking with PPE they did'nt know it was bogus.I never asked anyone to help me on this or told to have a debate or pictures taken. I never had a problem until the dealer took out my tranny for a rear seal leak that did not exist as they found out.Then they found a bulletin on the pump bolts leaking so they said that was the problem but still there was no leak as I looked at it myself. So from my point of view I don't trust the dealer as many false repairs have been done, oh yeh i forgot to mention when they did the bolt leak repair they decided to put new springs in my pump! Is that normal for this bulletin????? Personally I don't think so but I'm not a mechanic. PPE rules in my book and I refer alot of people to them, I don't even know who all of you people are. I would hope this clears things up for you C-ya

Did anyone make any sense out of this last post? Did this guy sound nervous or did he not have comand of the english language? It would be interesting to find out if the dealer had to pay for repairs on a modifyed trans. If in fact the dealer payed, would said dealer be responsible for aftermarket parts installed by someone else. Dealerships techs are not trained to set and adjust certain parts in an aftermarket modification so how could they do the work correctly? Would they be held responsable? This could become a Catch22 for the dealer. Now, did the dealer pay PPE to fix said problem ( in which case who is responsable for this now) or did the dealer install a factory rebuilt ( which IMHO is more likely). If the aforementioned is true, the customer must go back to PPE and have the work done over because he can no longer add power to the Ally without concerns. This is some complicated stuff, don't ya think?):h

To fast

You are correct that we all do not know what lead up to you current problem. What we do know is what was presented as a question as to what we(as a group) thought might of happened to cause this issue. So by looking at the supplied photo's one can draw some conclusions. The damage to the bearing area is suspect to say the least and the fact that the factory manual clearly warns about possible damage due to mis install of the bearing seems to fit your problem. PPE has jumped in and said there side and made many false and misleading statements IMO. The claim that the oil hole was misaligned by the dealer and that caused the problem is a bunch of BS. -:t I have supplied them with a section of the factory service manual that clearly spells out how to install the suspect part and they disagree, so believe whom you want. I'm not asking anyone to believe me just get the manuals and read them for yourselves. Then you can form your own conclusion. There are TSB's out to replace the pump springs in trucks that have a delay going into gear. You will find that we all tend to disagree on things but in the end we can usually figure out what went wrong and why.

BadMan

Have you got the manuals out yet or has the truth bit you in the a$$ again.

I have come up with an idea as to what happened to this Ally as I have seen this before in another truck ( not an Allison).IMHO I think the rear nut was left loose( or came loose). This might shed some light as to why it took so long to go bad if in fact I am correct. Geartrains move back and forth under throttle ( hit the pedal and gears move back, let off and you get opposite movement). Stop and go driving will beat this thing up and hard acceleration will be worse. Hyway driving will not affect it much. This would cause the sungear needle to get beat up over time and not show lack of lube.

:eek: Holy tag team Batman:eek:

Not taking sides, dont care about the situation, but I have seen a few of those bearings fail when I was at the dealer, usually took out the planets, never seen signs of heat though, just failure...

Torrington bearings can/do fail.

Thats all I can say, 58k is a long time for it to go even if it was upside down.

He had us crate it up to send back to PPE for some more damage... Wonder what they will leave out this time? He still thinks the world of PPE...

This is the miss diagnosis I was refering to......
What was left out?

. first of all my truck never had a tranny leak that was a miss diagnoice and they rebuilt my pump at that time to cover there --- for warranty reasons.

Are you telling me that you came into the dealer with a trans problem after the purple converter was in, and the dealer dove into it under warranty?? Most/all dealers would laugh if you asked for warranty coverage on a tranny with a purple convertor, I know I would.

Not taking sides, dont care about the situation, but I have seen a few of those bearings fail when I was at the dealer, usually took out the planets, never seen signs of heat though, just failure...

Torrington bearings can/do fail.

Thats all I can say, 58k is a long time for it to go even if it was upside down.

dmaxalliTech,

If the bearings fail even in stock trans with stock power, you have a good point, how then can the bearing go 58k upside down in a truck thats modified, and then driven like it was stolen? The bearing probably wouldnt last even 10 minutes.....

Who wants to be the first to test this theory?
Anyone want to turn their bearing around?:)

Ok, I would like to try to clear some things up here. First of all, I (Ben Canty, Service Technician) Have NEVER worked on Blake's transmission. EVER. I have developed what I thought was a friendship with Blake. I have helped him with a few performance mods, and some suspension work. He comes to me as a fellow D-Max enthusiast to discuss his truck, and I enjoy helping him out with it. That is all. I began posting this thread to help try and answer some questions that Blake had asked me that I could not answer. I guess I made a mistake by making public my opinion of PPE. This truck had nothing to do with my opinion of PPE. (misleading advertising, and Ghettosled, however do have everything to do with it) This truck runs great and has held up to ALOT of abuse (Blake you know what I mean) I did a little digging and this is what I came up with: First of all, Blake, you DID have a fluid leak and you know it. When your truck came in for an oil change the tech noticed black fluid at the bellhousing area. We advised you that it would be a warranty repair (thinking it was an engine oil leak) and you authorized us to fix it. When Jason removed the tranny to access the back of the engine, the engine was dry. However, there was fluid leaking from the transmission behind the torque converter. You cannot deny this, and as a matter of fact, you used my flashlight to look at the leak. This is when you called PPE and they told you that they don't have to remove those bolts to do your upgrade. Obviously the dealership was in a tough situation now that there really was no ENGINE oil leak but there was a TRANSMISSION oil leak, which was not covered by the factory warranty. The decision was made by the powers to be that we would get the pump re-seal covered by your service contract. Obviously you know that if the service contract company knew of your mods, your contract would be void. But rather than throwing you and your truck under the bus, we pushed it through, so that you wouldn't be stuck with the bill. The tranny was pushed down to the tranny tech, who did in-fact, REBUILD the pump. I do not know why the decision was made to rebuild instead of re-seal. Tha tranny was then pushed down to Jason (who is certified, by the way, along with everybody here) to reinstall. After recent discussions with him, he did admit that he could not move the T/C when the trans was bolted up, and had to re-clock the converter before he could continue. Who knows whose fault it is? Did the tranny tech not install the T/C properly? Did the T/C fall out on it's tranny jack ride across the shop? Who knows? After this revelation, it is now apparent that we did screw up. We very well could have damaged the gear just enough to cause it to fail down the road. With this in front of us, our dealership is paying the total cost of the repair. What caused the bearing failure? Again, who knows? I can say thet Blake did need to have his driveshaft replaced due to the damaged caused to it from SEVERE launch shudder. (Full throttle take offs with a 20k trailer in tow with everything set to "kill") Could this launch shudder have caused the slip yoke to bottom out and beat the thrust bearing to death? I am sorry that this became a pissing match. It is unfortunate, Blake, that you choose to dis-credit the service department that has done so much for you. We could have told you to pound sand on any number of your repairs (injectors, for one). We could have asked an adjuster to come look at your truck, but we didn't. Yes, we screwed up. Even though it was out of my hands, I apologize because it makes us all look bad. But we have always taken care of you, and with the appropriate information, we took care of this one. Remember who takes care of you, and remember who has your money.
I would like to thank everyone who tried to help me answer the questions I had. (Mike L., Steve Cole, Eric, PPE representatives 1-3) Can we drop this now?

Well written!
I think we finally have the whole story.
Ben,your dealership is lucky to have you!:angel:

Ok, I would like to try to clear some things up here. First of all, I (Ben Canty, Service Technician) Have NEVER worked on Blake's transmission. EVER. I have developed what I thought was a friendship with Blake. I have helped him with a few performance mods, and some suspension work. He comes to me as a fellow D-Max enthusiast to discuss his truck, and I enjoy helping him out with it. That is all. I began posting this thread to help try and answer some questions that Blake had asked me that I could not answer. I guess I made a mistake by making public my opinion of PPE. This truck has nothing to do with my opinion of PPE. (misleading advertising, and Ghettosled, however do have everything to do with it) This truck runs great and has held up to ALOT of abuse (Blake you know what I mean) I did a little digging and this is what I came up with: First of all, Blake, you DID have a fluid leak and you know it. When your truck came in for an oil change the tech noticed black fluid at the bellhousing area. We advised you that it would be a warranty repair (thinking it was an engine oil leak) and you authorized us to fix it. When Jason removed the tranny to access the back of the engine, the engine was dry. However, there was fluid leaking from the transmission behind the torque converter. You cannot deny this, and as a matter of fact, you used my flashlight to look at the leak. This is when you called PPE and they told you that they don't have to remove those bolts to do your upgrade. Obviously the dealership was in a tough situation now that there really was no ENGINE oil leak but there was a TRANSMISSION oil leak, which was not covered by the factory warranty. The decision was made by the powers to be that we would get the pump re-seal covered by your service contract. Obviously you know that if the service contract company knew of your mods, your contract would be void. But rather than throwing you and your truck under the bus, we pushed it through, so that you wouldn't be stuck with the bill. The tranny was pushed down to the tranny tech, who did in-fact, REBUILD the pump. I do not know why the decision was made to rebuild instead of re-seal. Tha tranny was then pushed down to Jason (who is certified, by the way, along with everybody here) to reinstall. After recent discussions with him, he did admit that he could not move the T/C when the trans was bolted up, and had to re-clock the converter before he could continue. Who knows whose fault it is? Did the tranny tech not install the T/C properly? Did the T/C fall out on it's tranny jack ride across the shop? Who knows? After this revelation, it is now apparent that we did screw up. We very well could have damaged the gear just enough to cause it to fail down the road. With this in front of us, our dealership is paying the total cost of the repair. What caused the bearing failure? Again, who knows? I can say thet Blake did need to have his driveshaft replaced due to the damaged caused to it from SEVERE launch shudder. (Full throttle take offs with a 20k trailer in tow with everything set to "kill") Could this launch shudder have caused the slip yoke to bottom out and beat the thrust bearing to death? I am sorry that this became a pissing match. It is unfortunate, Blake, that you choose to dis-credit the service department that has done so much for you. We could have told you to pound sand on any number of your repairs (injectors, for one). We could have asked an adjuster to come look at your truck, but we didn't. Yes, we screwed up. Even though it was out of my hands, I apologize because it makes us all look bad. But we have always taken care of you, and with the appropriate information, we took care of this one. Remember who takes care of you, and remember who has your money.
I would like to thank everyone who tried to help me answer the questions I had. (Mike L., Steve Cole, Eric, PPE representatives 1-3) Can we drop this now?

With that, I think The Mods/ admins should close the book/thread on this one...JMHO

whew...................

Awwwwww is it over already ?

I'm back with more popcorn


:stirthepo


.

dmaxalliTech,

If the bearings fail even in stock trans with stock power, you have a good point, how then can the bearing go 58k upside down in a truck thats modified, and then driven like it was stolen? The bearing probably wouldnt last even 10 minutes.....

Who wants to be the first to test this theory?
Anyone want to turn their bearing around?:)

Plowing snow and running a hot juice for some time and a TTS Xtreme...... If a bearing is installed backwards it will last for 10k before funky shifting is felt and schrapnel is found in the pan. It really dosnt heat up all the gear set but the area were the bearing is/was gets pretty nasty. Also chunks of former bearing migrate around the trans and take chunks outa hard parts were ever they land. Not that I have expereince with it or anything :rolleyes: :o: I droped the trans and found this for other reasons.....who knows how long it woulda went before a fulll on nuclear melt down kersploasion?

Maybe I shouldnt mess with allisons anymore and limit the work I do to stereo installs and the like?

It is unfortunate, Blake, that you choose to dis-credit the service department that has done so much for you.

What goes around, comes around, it is infact unfortunate, but, guess Blake also did not appreciate you trying to discredit PPE in the begining of your posts......:)

Like I said, I apologize for passing judgement prematurely. I takes a man to admit when he is wrong. Unlike the story PPE told Blake that the pump bolts are not removed during the upgrade and therefore could not have leaked. It is my understanding that they must be removed to do all of the upgrades. Therefore my initial impression of PPE is that they would not take responsibility for a leak in the transmission they worked on. This initial impression had clouded my judgement and I jumped on PPE before I had the whole story. I APOLOGIZE. Also, since you are so proud of PPE, why do you remain anonymous? Drop those pom-poms and tell us who you are. I think Blake mentioned "Joel"?

Furthermore, Blake says that we are paying for the repairs. As it turns out, we have not paid for anything yet, nor promised him anything yet. I do not know where he got that story. I assumed that since he said that we were at fault and paying for it, that we had, but the Service Manager says he has no knowledge of us paying for anything. Also, Jason said that the only problem he had with the T/C was that he had to loosen the first bolt he tightened when none of the other 5 would line up, due to the smaller than stock diameter causing them fit the flexplate sloppy. That is what he meant when he said he "re-clocked it" I hope this clears things up a little more. I really wished I hadn't gotten involved at all with this. I just wanted to help a customer find out why a failure occured, and nothing more. I did not mean to offend, hurt, or piss on anyone.

Like I said, I apologize for passing judgement prematurely. I takes a man to admit when he is wrong. Unlike the story PPE told Blake that the pump bolts are not removed during the upgrade and therefore could not have leaked. It is my understanding that they must be removed to do all of the upgrades. Therefore my initial impression of PPE is that they would not take responsibility for a leak in the transmission they worked on. This initial impression had clouded my judgement and I jumped on PPE before I had the whole story. I APOLOGIZE. Also, since you are so proud of PPE, why do you remain anonymous? Drop those pom-poms and tell us who you are. I think Blake mentioned "Joel"?

Furthermore, Blake says that we are paying for the repairs. As it turns out, we have not paid for anything yet, nor promised him anything yet. I do not know where he got that story. I assumed that since he said that we were at fault and paying for it, that we had, but the Service Manager says he has no knowledge of us paying for anything. Also, Jason said that the only problem he had with the T/C was that he had to loosen the first bolt he tightened when none of the other 5 would line up, due to the smaller than stock diameter causing them fit the flexplate sloppy. That is what he meant when he said he "re-clocked it" I hope this clears things up a little more. I really wished I hadn't gotten involved at all with this. I just wanted to help a customer find out why a failure occured, and nothing more. I did not mean to offend, hurt, or piss on anyone.


Sound like someone is backpedaling..... Maybe in fear of loosing his job or worse (what you have done in this post is a form of defamation or "lible" I would not be surprised if someone or a company chooses to file suit) for sticking his nose in other peoples business with out the facts.

Sorry for the :rant: . This is a GREAT site (however it would be alot more enjoyable with out all the DRAMA)......:offtopic:

No backpedaling here, just a nice guy gettin his ***** chopped off for trying to help a FRIEND in a tough situation. Remember, I didn't work on the tranny, it is no skin of my nutz if we pay the bill or not. I just want to see Blake get treated fairly. We are supposed to race when his truck is done, do you think I want to race the tow truck pulling him? No, I want Blake on the road and this sh!t to be done with...

Also, since you are so proud of PPE, why do you remain anonymous? Drop those pom-poms and tell us who you are. I think Blake mentioned "Joel"?


Would that be the same Joel that works at PPE?

Sound like someone is backpedaling..... Maybe in fear of loosing his job or worse (what you have done in this post is a form of defamation or "lible" I would not be surprised if someone or a company chooses to file suit) for sticking his nose in other peoples business with out the facts.

Sorry for the :rant: . This is a GREAT site (however it would be alot more enjoyable with out all the DRAMA)......:offtopic:

Yeah especially with some newbie with only 4 posts jumping in...

I could be wrong but a lot of newbies are with extremely low post counts are jumping in with stuff to say about maxpayne who only tried to help but may have said something to discredit PPE... coincidence? maybe...time will tell

Let me be the first to say:welcome2:

FYI - this thread is now closed. To help set the record straight i'd like to say a couple things.

PPE is banned here and they have been for quite some time. when we did our last forum upgrade they got accidentially un-banned which was my fault for failing to notice. They were banned for attempting to get free advertising, and for having multiple usernames. before this thread started PPE had 7 different user accounts on this forum they used to try and covertly advertise their products. Throughout the course of this thread, PPE has added at least 2 more user accounts to their credit for a minimum total of 9. I of course have all of the log files to prove it.

It is sad when a company continues to try, despite our efforts as moderators, to generate more and more usernames to continue to push their product. As a result i am forced to write posts like this, which make PPE look shady and dishonorable.

To date, they are the only individual/vendor that has been explicitly prohibited from registering in the Forum Rules Member Agreement (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/register.php?). Should anyone see PPE posting again, please notifiy one of the moderators immediately.

Please leave the personal attacks out of this thread. As we have near 20,000 members it is expected that not everyone will see eye to eye. However the personal bantering MUST STOP. So please, lets try and get along.



Thank you