I think that I read on here somewhere that there was a s/n cutoff for reprograming the allison to a six speed. Does anybody remember where that is? I am wondering if my trans can be recalibrated.
Max:rolleyes:

If you have a 5 speed it's just going to be a 5 speed. The 6 speed uses a different valve body to get you 6 gears along with a different TCM and code to run it.

If you have a 5 speed it's just going to be a 5 speed. The 6 speed uses a different valve body to get you 6 gears along with a different TCM and code to run it.

no steve.

he has a 2006. Everything went to 4th gen controls in 2006, doesnt matter if its a 5-speed or 6-speed.

I found that when the Edge was installed that I had the ECM for the LLY/LBZ. It was discovered when the Tech II wouldn't communicate with the ECM. It took the Can bus Tech II to read the ECM. I believe tha you are right in that I may have a trans that can have the sixth speed turned on. That is why I asked for the cut off 05/06 s/ns to compare to mine.
Thoughts?:rolleyes:
Max

I found that when the Edge was installed that I had the ECM for the LLY/LBZ. It was discovered when the Tech II wouldn't communicate with the ECM. It took the Can bus Tech II to read the ECM. I believe tha you are right in that I may have a trans that can have the sixth speed turned on. That is why I asked for the cut off 05/06 s/ns to compare to mine.
Thoughts?:rolleyes:
Max

depends whether or not your valve body has the 6-speed pipe in place...

you will need to check with an allison dealer as far as if your s/n trans has the VB with the 6-speed pipe. Crafty1, machinator, or Brayden would probably be able to help you out on this. Hopefully one of them will see this thread.

ben

Like Dura said maybe send Crafty1 a pm and ask him he is very knowledgable when it comes to the Allison.

Your trans is a 1000MH built in Indianapolis. Pickup trans are built in Baltimore and went to six speed configuration starting with S/N 6320601447.

However, in the S/N range 6310540658 to 6310703877, both 4th Gen (capable of 6 speeds) and a transition model with the older TCM and controls were being built in Indy.

Your trans is a 4th Gen controls model, so it is physically capable of 6 speeds, however as you discovered the GMT560 Medium Duty trucks use a different communications bus/protocol so the cal from a 6 speed MW7 pickup is not a drop-in.

The Can bus reader Tech II is what is used on the 2006 and later ECMs I was told. Well anyway you are the expert. Thanks again Crafty1
Max

no steve.

he has a 2006. Everything went to 4th gen controls in 2006, doesnt matter if its a 5-speed or 6-speed.

Ben

In the medium duty trucks they had both in 2006 the early TCM and the late TCM. I had thought the 5 speed model all got the early TCM and the 5 speed trans while the 6 speed got the late TCM. Crafty has stated that they all got the 6 speed trans and I was not aware of that.

Ben

In the medium duty trucks they had both in 2006 the early TCM and the late TCM.

Sorry Steve I disagree..... but do you have any proof of this? If it has a Bosch ECM (which ALL 2006 MY trucks had, medium duty or not), it HAS to have 4th gen controls. A 3rd gen WTEC TCM doesnt have the controller chips to speak high speed GMLAN.....which is the only language the Bosch ECM speaks....

there never was any GM application that intermixed delphi ECM's with 4th gen controls, or Bosch ECM's with 3rd gen controls.

Trust me. If that was the case/if (if what you said was true) those existed then suncoast wouldnt have a market for their 'secretly obtained' TCM calibration......because you could just use off the shelf parts.

ben

This is a great site. You meet some of the coolest folks here. Thank you Dura for steering me to Crafty1. He is amazing. He answered all my questions. Good folks here.
Max:):D;):cool::ro):exactly::hail::thumb:

However, in the S/N range 6310540658 to 6310703877, both 4th Gen (capable of 6 speeds) and a transition model with the older TCM and controls were being built in Indy.

Your trans is a 4th Gen controls model, so it is physically capable of 6 speeds, however as you discovered the GMT560 Medium Duty trucks use a different communications bus/protocol so the cal from a 6 speed MW7 pickup is not a drop-in.

Sorry Steve I disagree..... but do you have any proof of this?

ben


Ben did you see the quote from Crafty 1 where it says the older TCM? Thats the one. I would believe that is the proof your asking for. As for speaking GMLAN the older ECM and TCM both speak it but I'm not sure which of the 2 possible speeds they all run at. The Dual Wire High Speed GMLAN or CAN as it is more commonly called has been on the Duramax truck from day one. It's just not used for the diagnostics's port on 2001 - 2005 models.

Ben did you see the quote from Crafty 1 where it says the older TCM? Thats the one. I would believe that is the proof your asking for.

ok there are 2 different databusses that we are talking about here

J1939 CAN. Operates at 250k speed
high speed GMLAN (J2284). Operates at 500k speed

01-05 dmax's speak 250k J1939 CAN for ECM <-> TCM <-> FICM <-> GPCM communications. Talking to the "outside world" for programming and boddy comms is with the old slow class 2, or J1850vpw, as you know.

06+ dmax's speak 500k high speed GMLAN for ECM <-> TCM <-> GPCM <-> EBCM. The 06+ dmax's are programmed/flashed over the high speed bus as well, because you need the candi box when you use a tech 2 on them. On the 06-07 dmax's in addition to HS GMLAN, there did remain some basic class 2 data messages to speak to the GMT-800 body's, just like the 01-05 dmax's. Only difference is, as I said before, 06-07 dmax's are not reflashed over class 2. In 07 with the GMT-900's Class 2 was replaced by low speed GMLAN, a form of single wire CAN. (low speed GMLAN is NOT compatible with either HS GMLAN or J1939 CAN...you need a gateway module to translate)

now...

yes GMLAN is a type/variation of CAN but it is not compatible with J1939 CAN...it will crash the bus if you hook up something speaking GMLAN to something speaking J1939 CAN. ie, if you hook up a Bosch duramax ECM to a 3rd gen WTEC allison TCM. Or vice versa; if you try to hook up a 4th gen Allison TCM to a 01-05 duramax ECM. I know this for a fact because I have tried it myself.

I think everyone is confused as to what everyone else is talking about. Im going to wait for Crafty1 to confirm that: YES there existed an application with a 2006 BOSCH ECM'd duramax that spoke to a 3RD GENERATION ALLISON TCM. I am 99.9999% sure no such application existed, because the 3rd gen Allison controls cant speak GMLAN! They can speak 250k J1939 CAN, but not 500k high speed GMLAN.

As for speaking GMLAN the older ECM and TCM both speak it but I'm not sure which of the 2 possible speeds they all run at.

no they dont speak GMLAN. They speak J1939 CAN...which is different...they are indeed distant cousins; but still incompatible...J1939 as used by the 01-05 dmax's and 01-05 3rd gen allison controls is 250k speed. High speed GMLAN as used by the 06+ dmax's and 4th gen allison controls is 500k.

I am pretty confident in my above answers, as I have researched for months and read hundreds of pages on SAE data bus specs and tech pages on this subject in my attempt at getting a 4th gen Allison TCM to speak to a 01-05 duramax....

...it didnt work, and it will never work (4th gen TCM playing nice with a 01-05 dmax) unless I go into allison and steal a custom calibration that is setup for the following :eek:

- 250k J1939 high speed comms <-------this is the "impossible" part
- J1850 class 2 low speed comms
- tow/haul mode set to activate w/ J1850 class 2 command (or use one of the general purpose inputs)
- tap-shift enabled
- LCT1000 ratios

ben


also...4500-5500 GMT-560's are identical to the pickup trucks (within a given respective model year range) as far as data-busses are concerned. 6500-8500 GMT-560's use a different high speed data bus (not GMLAN) that is NOT compatible with pickup truck calibrations.

I know this because I have used 4500-5500 kodiak TCMs in 2500-3500 pickup trucks and it worked fine.

I'm with Ben on this one; Yes, CAN has been around from day one, but GMLAN came out with the 2006MY, and the two are incompatable; If they wheren't, a 2006 TCM would be able to talk to the older ECM's. Also as he said, if a 6 speed calibation for the 3rd Gen WTEC TCM and a 1000 series existed, Suncoast wouldn't have a market for their converson.

Prove that such a calibration exists. Give me the VIN of a truck with that calibration and I'll program it into my WTEC TCM and try it, provided the calibration is available in TIS2000. Heck, give me the VIN of a truck that had the 6-speed Trans & Valvebody but 5-speed WTEC TCM.

Maximum, what does your TCM look like? Is it black with a heatsink, about 6"x6" and one big connector or silver and flat (about 10"x12" or so) with two connectors?

Ben:
Crafty told me that there are some internal differences between the GM560s and the P/U allisons. I have a Motor Home with the 1000MH. I hope Crafty chimes in here.
Max

ok there are 2 different databusses that we are talking about here

J1939 CAN. Operates at 250k speed
high speed GMLAN (J2284). Operates at 500k speed

01-05 dmax's speak 250k J1939 CAN for ECM <-> TCM <-> FICM <-> GPCM communications. Talking to the "outside world" for programming and boddy comms is with the old slow class 2, or J1850vpw, as you know.

06+ dmax's speak 500k high speed GMLAN for ECM <-> TCM <-> GPCM <-> EBCM. The 06+ dmax's are programmed/flashed over the high speed bus as well, because you need the candi box when you use a tech 2 on them. On the 06-07 dmax's in addition to HS GMLAN, there did remain some basic class 2 data messages to speak to the GMT-800 body's, just like the 01-05 dmax's. Only difference is, as I said before, 06-07 dmax's are not reflashed over class 2. In 07 with the GMT-900's Class 2 was replaced by low speed GMLAN, a form of single wire CAN. (low speed GMLAN is NOT compatible with either HS GMLAN or J1939 CAN...you need a gateway module to translate)

now...

yes GMLAN is a type/variation of CAN but it is not compatible with J1939 CAN...it will crash the bus if you hook up something speaking GMLAN to something speaking J1939 CAN. ie, if you hook up a Bosch duramax ECM to a 3rd gen WTEC allison TCM. Or vice versa; if you try to hook up a 4th gen Allison TCM to a 01-05 duramax ECM. I know this for a fact because I have tried it myself.

I think everyone is confused as to what everyone else is talking about. Im going to wait for Crafty1 to confirm that: YES there existed an application with a 2006 BOSCH ECM'd duramax that spoke to a 3RD GENERATION ALLISON TCM. I am 99.9999% sure no such application existed, because the 3rd gen Allison controls cant speak GMLAN! They can speak 250k J1939 CAN, but not 500k high speed GMLAN.



no they dont speak GMLAN. They speak J1939 CAN...which is different...they are indeed distant cousins; but still incompatible...J1939 as used by the 01-05 dmax's and 01-05 3rd gen allison controls is 250k speed. High speed GMLAN as used by the 06+ dmax's and 4th gen allison controls is 500k.

I am pretty confident in my above answers, as I have researched for months and read hundreds of pages on SAE data bus specs and tech pages on this subject in my attempt at getting a 4th gen Allison TCM to speak to a 01-05 duramax....

...it didnt work, and it will never work (4th gen TCM playing nice with a 01-05 dmax) unless I go into allison and steal a custom calibration that is setup for the following :eek:

- 250k J1939 high speed comms <-------this is the "impossible" part
- J1850 class 2 low speed comms
- tow/haul mode set to activate w/ J1850 class 2 command (or use one of the general purpose inputs)
- tap-shift enabled
- LCT1000 ratios

ben


also...4500-5500 GMT-560's are identical to the pickup trucks (within a given respective model year range) as far as data-busses are concerned. 6500-8500 GMT-560's use a different high speed data bus (not GMLAN) that is NOT compatible with pickup truck calibrations.

I know this because I have used 4500-5500 kodiak TCMs in 2500-3500 pickup trucks and it worked fine.

Well said. Thanks for explaining the fine details to everyone.

Since I can't edit my original post :rolleyes:...

I did some looking on FleaBay, and there are both 5-speed and 6-speed Transmissions in the 06MY. HOWEVER, every one, regardless of 5 or 6 speed, had OS#15816282, which is an A40 OS. Also, every picture I could find of an 06 had a 4th Gen TCM and an E35 ECM.

Since I can't edit my original post :rolleyes:...

I did some looking on FleaBay, and there are both 5-speed and 6-speed Transmissions in the 06MY. HOWEVER, every one, regardless of 5 or 6 speed, had OS#15816282, which is an A40 OS. Also, every picture I could find of an 06 had a 4th Gen TCM and an E35 ECM.

That's true when speaking of GM usage. Other OEMs still used the Delphi 1000/2000 TCM (Not WTEC3). Those corresponding transmissions in the transition had the new pump and front support, LuK TC, but did not have the new upgraded rotating clutch assembly or six speed valve body.

I think everyone is confused as to what everyone else is talking about. Im going to wait for Crafty1 to confirm that: YES there existed an application with a 2006 BOSCH ECM'd duramax that spoke to a 3RD GENERATION ALLISON TCM. I am 99.9999% sure no such application existed, because the 3rd gen Allison controls cant speak GMLAN! They can speak 250k J1939 CAN, but not 500k high speed GMLAN.



...it didnt work, and it will never work (4th gen TCM playing nice with a 01-05 dmax) unless I go into allison and steal a custom calibration that is setup for the following :eek:

- 250k J1939 high speed comms <-------this is the "impossible" part
- J1850 class 2 low speed comms
- tow/haul mode set to activate w/ J1850 class 2 command (or use one of the general purpose inputs)
- tap-shift enabled
- LCT1000 ratios

ben


You may want to take a look at the Workhorse chassic stuff. I think you will find you have missed a few things along the way.

That's true when speaking of GM usage. Other OEMs still used the Delphi 1000/2000 TCM (Not WTEC3). Those corresponding transmissions in the transition had the new pump and front support, LuK TC, but did not have the new upgraded rotating clutch assembly or six speed valve body.

But those 2006+ MY transmissions that still used the old 1000/2000 3rd gen TCM (when GM stuff went to 4th gen controls), they didnt interface with a GM Bosch ECM...correct?

Basically...what Steve is trying to tell me is that a 3rd gen 1000/2000 TCM can speak to a 06+ Bosch ECM, and vice versa (a 4th gen TCM can speak to a delphi 01-05 dmax ECM)..........this is not true.

ben

You may want to take a look at the Workhorse chassic stuff. I think you will find you have missed a few things along the way.

I have all of the allison technical manuals for both 3rd and 4th gen controls, and everything they say is exactly what I have said above, that nothing is compatible. Notice I said ALLISON technical manuals. NOT GM technical manuals.

There are factory (workhouse, medium duty, etc) applications of 4th gen TCM that speak J1939 CAN and not high speed GMLAN...so technically yes, that 4th gen TCM might speak to a 01-05 dmax ECM.

BUT BUT BUT....its a moot point BECAUSE those medium duty/workhorse 4th gen/J1939 TCM's arent programmed to support the tap-shift, data bus enabled tow/haul, etc....

So yeah. I could go to a workhorse or medium duty, get one of those J1939-enabled 4th gen TCM's and hook it up to my truck and it would probably work...but it would be pointless because all the features that make the 4th gen TCM cool (tap-shift, cruise grade braking, etc) do NOT EXIST on the workhorse/medium duty calibrations...

Also...steve you say (06+ GM pickup) GMLAN and (01-05 gm pickup) J1939 are compatible. Well if thats true then why do the 4th gen TCM's (which have the ability to speak both, GMLAN in pickup applications and J1939 in non-GM applications) have TWO SEPARATE CONTROLLER CHIPS in them, with discrete/separate pin locations (on the connector) for each different data bus; GMLAN and J1939...?????

Ben

I am not trying to tell you anything, just pointing out that you can run a Gen 4 TCM on an 01- 05 ECM. It's already been done and works fine but you just have to know how. Nothing was stolen to do it just used a little time and research to pick out the proper parts. Now as far as the GMLan and CAN debate goes, They are very very similar and if you do it right you can speak both with the same hardware. GMLAN is based on CAN protocol with a few twists that are handle in software just fine.

Gee whiz guys all I asked was can I turn on the sixth speed in my 2006 Med duty motor home 1000MH trans and can the tap shift be used. I thought that I understood this stuff but now I'm confused again but I'm old. I'm just a nuts and bolts guy and certainly not up to the stuff you guys are into. Again I'm old.
Max:cool::o:

Ben

I am not trying to tell you anything, just pointing out that you can run a Gen 4 TCM on an 01- 05 ECM. It's already been done and works fine but you just have to know how. Nothing was stolen to do it just used a little time and research to pick out the proper parts. Now as far as the GMLan and CAN debate goes, They are very very similar and if you do it right you can speak both with the same hardware. GMLAN is based on CAN protocol with a few twists that are handle in software just fine.

Steve I cant POSSIBLY imagine in a million years you would EVER post pics/video proof of it actually working though, so I guess Ill just have to take your word for it, like almost everything else.... :)

ben

Had a customer interested in this, Would love to see more on it. Possibly some info in writing on how it can be done...

Thanks
Tim

Steve I cant POSSIBLY imagine in a million years you would EVER post pics/video proof of it actually working though, so I guess Ill just have to take your word for it, like almost everything else.... :)

ben


Ben

Since you believe it cannot be done and since you have not done it I guess that's the answer -:t

Truth is I gave up long ago try to tell you anything. Do the research and you will find it's true and I really could care less if you believe it or not.

Ben

Since you believe it cannot be done and since you have not done it I guess that's the answer -:t

Truth is I gave up long ago try to tell you anything. Do the research and you will find it's true and I really could care less if you believe it or not.

With all due respect, I'm with Ben here. If you can't PROVE that you have a STOCK GM 2500/3500 2006+ TCM woking with a </=2005 ECM, then all it is is talk. I've tried to get it to work. It's been so long since I've tried that I don't remember the outcome of hooking the GMLAN pins to the J1939 bus, but I THINK the result was the rest of the J1939 modules complaining about problems on the bus. Hooking up the J1939 pins resulted in a no start condition (symptoms matched a VATs issue exactly; crank, fire for fraction of second, & die, then no fire whatsoever), and if the TCM was conneted after start with the J1939 pins connected, I had no throttle input. I suspect GM/Allison "Booby trapped" the TCM to prevent this very thing from being done. I have given up, and will be converting to a LBZ motor, ECM & TCM. I would've loved to get the 06+ TCM working on my LLY, but with DSP to be released for the LBZ, there's no reason NOT to convert to the LBZ ECM & motor. They're quieter, no FICM, lower voltage injectors, faster ECM & TCM, I already have the 06+ shifter and IPC installed....