im thinking of buyin an older chevy diesel 6.5 or 6.2 and see if i can make it run with the new diesels its goin to be a 2 wheel drive what is the better motor to mod

I'm not here to burst your bubble, however consider the following:

No matter 6.2 or 6.5(both are IDI) it will not run with the newer diesels. Brand new these trucks couldn't stand with the modifications that could be done to the PSD and Cummins of the same time. The 6.5 is and always has been a fuel mileage motor. You can make some decent power but they weren't designed to crank out 3-400+ HP all day long. Now you want to make it run with newer diesels that are light years ahead technology wise, with an engine that has used a type of injection pump system that's been around for probably 50 years if not longer.

I'm sorry but it's just not going to happen without some serious, and i mean serious money, and even then it might reach stock or very slightly modded Dmax levels before going up in a spectacular show of flames and flying metal chunks.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

To just add some perspective to what Dave said, the highest proven horsepower we have seen out of a 6.5 has been about 300 HP, that is the same as a first gen Duramax, and that has with thousands of dollars of mods, and nitrous and propane injection.

That is not to say that the 6.5 can't perform, a few small mods, some extra boost and fuel, can get you over 200, and it will seem like a new truck. For something that is 20 years old, I would say that is not too bad, but it is like trying to compare a stovebolt six to a 350, things have come along way and the motors have gotten alot better nowdays

After many engine swaps, pumping up engines, etc. I have a new rule:

If I want a faster vehicle, I buy a faster vehicle.

I have been studying and shopping for a diesel and I think this is the same issue. The 6.5L is good for what it is but it's not in the same class as the diesel HP wars of 2001 and up. If you want Duramax power, get a Duramax.

i understand that the new diesels are on a whole other level compared to the old 6.5 and 6.2 i have a 2005 duramax i just want to build something else that not everyone is running around in im thinking if i get a old 2wd chevy 18 to 1 compression pistons turn up the boost and spray some nos on it that would be a cool ride and not alot of people would have one like it and i seen a you tube video of a 6.5 smoking a cummins and a duramax
heres the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15s4RKiKY84

here is against the cummins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDl07YDs6Yc

That truck has unknown mods done to it. The owner refuses to discuss the modifications to that engine. Not sure why.

here is against the cummins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDl07YDs6Yc

that's against A cummins. There are many more Cummins, Duramax, PSD trucks out there that that 82 SWB 6.5 couldn't catch with a head start.

When it comes down to it, it's your money spend it how you want. If i wanted something that ran with the new diesels, i'd buy a truck with a new diesel. I just don't like the payments that come with a new truck. Both of mine are paid for and do the job just fine.

As far as spraying NOS. you spray NOS into one of these engines you'll be picking your connecting rods out of the pavement. These engines aren't built like the dmax. They cannot take that kind of abuse.

didnt know that i was wondering if that guy was on here his truck is bad ass

That truck has unknown mods done to it. The owner refuses to discuss the modifications to that engine. Not sure why.

Not only that, but his Power/Weight Ratio was probably better then the other vehicles he beats.

I see your goal a bit better now. You want the challenge. In that case, I would go for it. DP has some information on a 300HP 6.5L. If you got the money, go for it. It does sound like that is close to the limit for available fueling.

u hit it on the head man just something different that comes with a challenge

what does DP stand for ?

^ Dieselplace.

Challenges are great, but do you have that kind of coin?

I say :start out with a new p400 from amg. The latest and greatest 6.5. Most of the block and head issues are solved. Still not a duramax but much better than the average 6.2 or 6.5 and at least 10 years newer.

Yes, the guy with that Chevy truck is on this forum.

^ Dieselplace.

or Diesel Page. It seems there is some rivalry between a couple of the sites and I didn't want to get tossed for violating some rule.

DP can stand for a few different things ):h

reasons for editing lately....lol Will

Original Poster, since most of the 6.2 parts will interchange with the 6.5 and the increase in displacement isn't much I can't favor one from the other.

now that i know a 6.5 crank will work in a 6.2 block, there is even less difference in the end result for you(making power).

I think the 0.3L difference can be made up elsewhere. a stock 6.2 would prob only take 1-2 psi more boost to make the power of a stock 6.5, maybe even less.

building a quick 6.5 is not for most people. it is not easy, and always risky since the path is not well-paved with results of those who have come before us.

Since there is a lack of info, I'll do my best to answer any questions you have along the way about my experiences so far. I got nothing to hide.

look out for a 12 sec 6.5 IDI in 2010

pOWER TO WEIGHT RATIO & CORRECT FOR 1/4 mile rear axle ratio makes it a competive machine. That 80's short bed truck weighs in at about 4700 LBS ready to race.Far cry from 7000 to 8000 LB+ Duramax/Dodge or Powerstroke!!Still in it's own right it is fast!!!.

Well, to get 300 HP or more it certainly can be done. I mean if you go to Peninsular Diesel you will find they have an engine that makes 300 and 320 HP outright (technically for Hummers though) and an engine that makes 340 HP listed in the Marine category. It has the "high output" fuel injection system, which uses that all, very interesting DB4 injection pump. They have proven it can be done with a 6.5 engine. I think if you build an engine on your own to where you build the engine/internal components correct that you would pretty much have to try to run the Stanadyne DB4 injection pump. If you have a good local diesel fuel injection shop that you know they do good work I'm sure one could set up/calibrate a DB4 to be ran on a on-road engine. The idea of it being a 4 plunger pump is much better then a 2 plunger. Set your injector pop pressures accordingly and I'm sure this pump is the best yet to put out the needed fuel for one of these engines. Oh, and you can't forget you'll have around 500 ft. lbs. torque too!

http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/WP-PENTEST/wp-content/uploads/400TAI-340Graph.jpg

Well, to get 300 HP or more it certainly can be done. I mean if you go to Peninsular Diesel you will find they have an engine that makes 300 and 320 HP outright (technically for Hummers though) and an engine that makes 340 HP listed in the Marine category. It has the "high output" fuel injection system, which uses that all, very interesting DB4 injection pump. They have proven it can be done with a 6.5 engine. I think if you build an engine on your own to where you build the engine/internal components correct that you would pretty much have to try to run the Stanadyne DB4 injection pump. If you have a good local diesel fuel injection shop that you know they do good work I'm sure one could set up/calibrate a DB4 to be ran on a on-road engine. The idea of it being a 4 plunger pump is much better then a 2 plunger. Set your injector pop pressures accordingly and I'm sure this pump is the best yet to put out the needed fuel for one of these engines. Oh, and you can't forget you'll have around 500 ft. lbs. torque too!

http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/WP-PENTEST/wp-content/uploads/400TAI-340Graph.jpg

I'm sorry, but that graph doesn't work at all.

HP=TQ*RPM/5252. I tried two points on that graph to check, and niether one was anywhere near what the graph shows. I'll do 1500 and 2500 RPM.

1500:
TQ=480 ft-lbs. 480*1500=720000/5252=137.09. The graph shows well over 100 horses more than that.

2500:
TQ=about 515. 515*2500=1287500/5252=245.1 The graph shows about 85 horses more than that.

Now to compare, let's look at Turbine Doc's graph:
http://dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/K1500_Dallas_dyno_run.jpg
Ill do 2K RPM here.
TQ=290. 290*2000=580000/5252=110.43 That is almost spot on what the graph shows.

I was going to say.....that torque curve looks backwards and wayyy too steep!
I would love to see the screwed up diesel that made that torque curve!

Well, to get 300 HP or more it certainly can be done. I mean if you go to Peninsular Diesel you will find they have an engine that makes 300 and 320 HP outright (technically for Hummers though) and an engine that makes 340 HP listed in the Marine category. It has the "high output" fuel injection system, which uses that all, very interesting DB4 injection pump. They have proven it can be done with a 6.5 engine. I think if you build an engine on your own to where you build the engine/internal components correct that you would pretty much have to try to run the Stanadyne DB4 injection pump. If you have a good local diesel fuel injection shop that you know they do good work I'm sure one could set up/calibrate a DB4 to be ran on a on-road engine. The idea of it being a 4 plunger pump is much better then a 2 plunger. Set your injector pop pressures accordingly and I'm sure this pump is the best yet to put out the needed fuel for one of these engines. Oh, and you can't forget you'll have around 500 ft. lbs. torque too!



The IP most commonly used by Peninsular is the Db2-4974 pump that starts at 250 hp and runs out of fuel right around 320 hp. I was told first hand it is a great all around mech pump(the mech pump itself suits their marine/military applications the best because of its predictability). They have an engine dyno at their MI facility, so their yes all hp ratings are at the engine.
that dyno graph does look like a MS paint job lol

They just started experimenting with the phantom 5722 pump on non-marine apps.

I'll be starting with the 4974 and if they get the 5722 pump streetable I will use that on top of my 18:1 6.5.

ohh and these pumps can modified by them to spin up to 4K rpms, or even more if you have the valvetrain/mods to handle it.

these pumps can modified by them to spin up to 4K rpms, or even more if you have the valvetrain/mods to handle it.

Do they have motors spinning at 4K+?
What all to they have done to handle that speed?

Well, I do agree that they have a pretty shotty graph to say the least. Apparently they don't lie on the power output levels of the engine though past the graph's curves not making sense at all. Question on the phantom 5722 pump, is that also a DB2? The marine pumps Kennedy sells must be very similar, if not exactly the same as the pumps that you listed. His 250 HP pump is probably the 4974, but wonder what the 300 HP is?? I still think the DB4 needs to be tryed on an on-road engine and what do one these usually run to buy? Over $2000 or in the $1000-1500 range?

Do they have motors spinning at 4K+?
What all to they have done to handle that speed?

yes, not sure how they achieved that, but my question was if I needed that rpm, they could supply a pump to do that.

Well, I do agree that they have a pretty shotty graph to say the least. Apparently they don't lie on the power output levels of the engine though past the graph's curves not making sense at all. Question on the phantom 5722 pump, is that also a DB2? The marine pumps Kennedy sells must be very similar, if not exactly the same as the pumps that you listed. His 250 HP pump is probably the 4974, but wonder what the 300 HP is?? I still think the DB4 needs to be tryed on an on-road engine and what do one these usually run to buy? Over $2000 or in the $1000-1500 range?

not sure if the 5722 is a two plunger pump or 4. not sure if we should call it that or not either. But the pump does make power.

the 300 hp pump is the 4974

the 4974 IP is expensive. havent asked about the 5722

honestly...I've as well as others been looking into inline Bosch Injection Pumps as the real solution to providing enough fuel for 300+ hp in a 6.5. there's a couple companies that will build a 8 cylinder inline pump. this would be similar to the "p-pump" series, mechanical

FYI, The early 6.2 engines were pump govenor limited @ 4350 RPM. Yes I had an alternator driven tach & I used the IP covernor to check the tachs accuracy. 4350 RPM with a straight pipe setting still wasn't very loud. A 6 percentgrade @ 11500 LBS. trailer & truck made plenty of noise!! This was with an ATS Turbo.

Judging by the way the P400 bottom end is designed 400+ HP shouldn't be a problem durability-wise , IF you can keep the pistons cool (keep the EGT's down). After all, the crank and bearing surfaces are dimensionally similar to a DMax or PS, as are the rods, and the bedplate is VERY strong and loads the stress over a large area. I wouldn't try getting that kind of power with a GM 6.2 or 6.5 though, or even an Optimizer 6500.

Like others have mentioned, the limitation would be fueling. I don't know what the ultimate limit is for the Stanadyne IP's, since (AFAIK) no aftermarket companies or private individuals have tried pushing the limits. I know the Bosch VE pumps used on Cummins motors have broken the 600HP mark with custom heads and rotors. On a stock VE 300-350 is usually considered maximum. But again, nobody has tried making custom internals for the DB2 or DB4 to increase fueling, mainly because it isn't on an engine that people try to get lots of power from.

Now, if somebody wanted to try something really different (and super expensive) it turns out that Bosch DOES make an 8 cylinder version of their P-Pump :D They also make stand-alone common-rail controllers, and a CP3 wouldn't be too difficult to adapt to the 6.x's IP pump drive. The real issue would be getting custom injectors...

Judging by the way the P400 bottom end is designed 400+ HP shouldn't be a problem durability-wise , IF you can keep the pistons cool (keep the EGT's down). After all, the crank and bearing surfaces are dimensionally similar to a DMax or PS, as are the rods, and the bedplate is VERY strong and loads the stress over a large area. I wouldn't try getting that kind of power with a GM 6.2 or 6.5 though, or even an Optimizer 6500.

Like others have mentioned, the limitation would be fueling. I don't know what the ultimate limit is for the Stanadyne IP's, since (AFAIK) no aftermarket companies or private individuals have tried pushing the limits. I know the Bosch VE pumps used on Cummins motors have broken the 600HP mark with custom heads and rotors. On a stock VE 300-350 is usually considered maximum. But again, nobody has tried making custom internals for the DB2 or DB4 to increase fueling, mainly because it isn't on an engine that people try to get lots of power from.

Now, if somebody wanted to try something really different (and super expensive) it turns out that Bosch DOES make an 8 cylinder version of their P-Pump :D They also make stand-alone common-rail controllers, and a CP3 wouldn't be too difficult to adapt to the 6.x's IP pump drive. The real issue would be getting custom injectors...

NOT an issue ;)

NOT an issue ;)

Are you sure? I'm talking about custom electronic injectors for a CR setup :cool:

here is against the cummins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDl07YDs6Yc

Also, did anyone notice that the Chevy guy redlighted? As we say in the racing game, "Oops!" :p:

Anyway, while I agree a GM 6.2 or 6.5, and even an Optimizer 6500 (non-P400) will never make high HP AND live a long life, they can be made to be high HP race-only engines. Remember this?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1641713166467266832#
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1641713166467266832#

Not to mention in the Cummins video he leaves super early. Can anyone say "red light"?

The 6.5L is way too fragile. Buy a wrecked duramax and fix it up.

Are you sure? I'm talking about custom electronic injectors for a CR setup :cool:

Oh I'm sure :cool:

not 6.5/6.2 related, but since we are on the topic of pushing IDI engines, here's my inspiration. I am not looking to duplicate these numbers.
thisguy took a tractor (most likely inline p-pump), adapted it to his 6.9L and compounded turbos. Ran mid 10's back in the mid 90s when nobody else was doing it. I'd love to meet this guy and shake his hand....
http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu203/Rafedial1/dadiesel.jpg

Oh I'm sure :cool:

Do tell ;)

ya i do not like fords at all but that is a sweet truck

not 6.5/6.2 related, but since we are on the topic of pushing IDI engines, here's my inspiration. I am not looking to duplicate these numbers.
thisguy took a tractor (most likely inline p-pump), adapted it to his 6.9L and compounded turbos. Ran mid 10's back in the mid 90s when nobody else was doing it. I'd love to meet this guy and shake his hand....
http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu203/Rafedial1/dadiesel.jpg


I knew it existed!!


I read about this truck somewheres, although i can't remember where now. Everyone said "It can't be done with an IDI" Here's proof! :D

I knew it existed!!


I read about this truck somewheres, although i can't remember where now. Everyone said "It can't be done with an IDI" Here's proof! :D



Kinda back from the dead, but Dave is right. The fact that an engine is IDI isn't really a limiting factor on its output. The VW 1.6 IDI engines can be tuned to make over 260hp (stock 68hp), which is over 163 hp/L. They use the same ricardo prechamber design as our trucks. At that level, a 6.5 would be laying out over 1000hp! Of course, we have other limitations like block strength and such.