Well, I figure I'll get blasted if I say that I think all the aftermarket programmers are responsible at least, in part, to many of the injector failures; So, I thought I'd just ask the question and see what everyone else thinks...

I am wondering how many of the injector failures are "self-inflicted wounds". ???

jeff

Edited by: dmax lover

Well if you mean does it make them last longer I don't know because mine died at 75000miles and I got no juice except for a sip a couple of months ago.


Maybe I should install the juice and see if the new injectors installed will last longer than the first 75000.





I LOVE STOCK TOO!

So what's your theory based on? Those injectors are supposed to last 200,000 miles. I can see that if you said that they'd last 30% less because we're running 30% more fuel thru them but that's not what's happening. Fuel line pressure would do it but most programmers don't increase line pressure. Back to the filtration.....those damn 7 micron shot gun blasts at 20,000 psi.

Sorry gradyghost...

I would guess that changing the amount of fuel to the injectors will also effect cooling and lubrication that they receive. (fuel returned is also overheated and can lower filter life??).

I am more suspicous of fuel quality; Specifically the lubricity and, per GMs recommendations, I am running Stanadyne lubricity additive to increase life of fuel system components. Has anyone run this religiously and have injector failure at a young age????

thanks,
jeff

Sorry topgas. Didn't see your post as we posted at the same time...

Higher pressures = higher temperatures -> that's why we have lava...

A few potential reasons for lower life with "juice" that I can think of off the top of my head but have no idea as to their validity...

1. Injectors are dealing with higher cylinder pressures.
2. Injectors are insufficiently cooled, overheat? (and lose temper?)
3. Injectors receive less lubrication "per cycle" and need more "per cycle"?
4. Due to improper cooling of injector - diesel that is returned is overheated and lower filter life results. (got this one from a chevron tech paper).

By the way, according to Chevron, only inorganic particles damage fuel injectors. Are the numbers quoted here constantly for inorganic or organic particles or both? (sounds like both to me - anyone know?).

By the way, I am adding the new racor filtration kit (pre-oem) as soon as it is blessed by GM.


jeff

Edited by: dmax lover

With out self incrimination it would be nice if the people with injector problems could specifiy what mods if any they had. One type of upgrade changes duty cycle time. The other changes pressure.(Duramaxer,Speed loader).

I am willing to accept the possibility that Juicing will cause slightly higher probability of injector failure. For those of us who run in lower levels and drive conservitively I wouldn't expect that difference to be much.


Conversly having something like Attitude can aid you in reducing other wear factors perhaps to lower than stock. Maybe someone could actually make an arguement for longevity benefits of running Juiced. Perhaps even as it pertains to the injectors. Not likely though, I will concede. --SS

I would say unequivocally, without any hesitation whatsoever:


NO!


The Juice does nothing which would effect injector life. An injector is merely a solenoid which allows the fuel from the HIGH PRESSURE RAIL to squirt through it for a specific amount of time. The solenoid does not care if it is open for 18% duty cycle, or 29% or 62% or whatever. Since there are 8 cylinders and it is a 4 stroke, I can't imagine that the duty cycle ever exceeds 10% or 12%. The Juice might widen pulse width by 5 or 10% or advance the timing, but that would have no effect on a solenoid. Fuel pressure is not raised.


I did have an injector fail, and I have run the Juice and propane. According to the Service Mgr, he and the tech looked at the symptoms, read the data from the Tech II (which wasn't as easy to pinpoint the problem as it first seems) and finally did a compression check. The final verdict: an injector stuck open and dumped a ton of fuel into one cylinder, producing a lot of smoke and torching a hole through the piston.


A representative from GM or Dmax showed up and then tried to deny the warr. claim, pointing to my tires (33") and proclaiming that the added drivetrain stress of the oversized tires burned up the engine while towing. The SM pointed out that 12,000lbs is nowhere near towing cap., 33" tires are only 8% larger than stock and the final touch: THE OTHER 7 CYLINDERS WERE GOOD AS NEW!


This is my point: if propane and/or the Juice had any negative effect on the engine, ALL 8 cylinders would have shown the same damage. The Juice controls all 8 injectors equally, propane flows into all cylinders equally. The other 7 cylinders looked perfect (I got to see and photograph one bank of 4, including the burned piston.)


There are some inherent design flaws with this fuel system. Sure the injector pulse width is narrow and gives a lot of room for tuners to make tons more power, it is an extremely precise system. But fuel and abrasives at these pressures are much tougher on injectors than any previous type of injection system and I really think Bosch screwed up on the 2001 injectors (mine was built 10/01). With only 25,000 mi on it, that one injector shouldn't have failed. They should all last 200,000 mi, or I feel they are defective (or at least poorly designed.) Even if 10% or 15% fail, that indicates a design flaw or process flaw. Perhaps the fuel rail is corroding after the fuel filter, perhaps the injectors weren't hard enough, perhaps the factory fuel filter is just not good enough for the dirty fuel we get... the bottom line is it should not be our problem to sort out, but corporate greed makes it our problem.


R, Steve

"Perhaps the fuel rail is corroding after the fuel filter"

I like using emulsifying additive for this reason.

Be nice to know the exact cause of injector failures. You figure they have boxes of them getting remanufactured. What does the remanufacturer need to do to bring them back to spec?

I have used stanadyne from day one and will continue to use it, unless I like the total power Dmaxallitech sold me better, but it did not stop injector failure. One is craked and one is stuck.
Scott

This is way out of my league, but couldn't the injectors be made out of a harder material like carbide, or something? Also, with such a failure rate as the injectors are having, shouldn't they be getting cheaper or maybe more manufacturors than just Bosch ?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Lets aproach this scientifically. Somebody needs to open a topic,poll or forum specifically asking what engine/fuel problems and what your milage was and what your mods were and finally what you were doing when this happened. We could all learn alot about the durabillaty of the Dmax. In regard to tuning issuses just effecting one cylinder or all clyinders at the same time. One very specific engine componet is going to show weakness first. Everything else is just a chain reaction. Just because all 8 pistons are not melted does not mean your motor is not lean. Lets all work together to compile more data. Are you afraid what the facts might show? You can't stop reallity from happening.Edited by: Bronco

There's more than one injector failure mode that's been identified. The injector pitting problem is directly proportional to the amount of fuel driven through the injectors. So the more fuel used, as is the case with Juice/etc, the more pitting. This reduces control of fuel application. Just for my sanity, till I install a secondary filter, I disconnected my Juice some time ago. Maybe I'm just a tad more anal though. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Ray403Dmax, I don't think there's even a statistically valid increase in fuel volume run through the injectors. The Juice gains more from the timing changes than from actual volume. If there were any appreciable increase in volume there would be a significant increase in fuel consumption and decrease in mileage. We're talking about fractions of cubic millimeters of volume at milliseconds of timing changes! Step back and think about it for a second or two.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Tom,


If that was true there wouldn't be excess fuel blasted out the exhaust as black smoke. And, I know my regular Juice has darkened the sky behind my truck. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


Also, other fuel boxes solutions, such as the Duramaximizer, increase fuel rail pressure to increase fuel flow for more HP. I'm certain they do not alter timing. I've never been fond of these solutions and only provide these as a counter example.


My rule of thumb is reversed logic with yours. For me, timing is a fine tune for optimizing the combustion process, and more fuel is what really increases HP. To a degree, you can add fuel without altering timing, but the pros do both.


Also, it doesn't matter what the baseline (OEM) fueling levels are so much as the % increase in the change. As an example... if the baseline was a miniscule 1/8 of a cubic mm and the delta increase was an even more miniscule 1/32 of a cubic mm, the change is a 25% increase.


One other thing. IIRC, fuel delivery has everything to do with deterministic things like throttle control and turbo boost and little with statistics. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree a bit.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif I believe that timing is more important than just optimizing combustion in the diesel. Overfueling produces black smoke, so fueling is important for optimizing combustion and timing adjusts the power production for the fuel provided. If belching black smoke and darkening the skies was more than a few extra ounces of burnt fuel you should be losing 4 or 5 miles per gallon. I very rarely ever see any smoke from my truck running Juice at level 4. My fuel mileage is as good or better than unjuiced so I am burning a net amount of "extra" fuel that is negligible or even LESS than stock. I'm actually reducing injector "fuel wear!"http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif (Your results may vary. No warranties expressed or implied.)http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

My fuel mileage is as good or better than unjuiced so I am burning a net amount of "extra" fuel that is negligible or even LESS than stock. I'm actually reducing injector "fuel wear!"http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif (Your results may vary. No warranties expressed or implied.)http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

More HP and less fuel consumption? Aren't you reducing amount of fuel to cool and lubricate injectors along the way? Do you really think that you are increasing the life of your fuel system components?


Related to the comment about carbide injectors - can you use cryogenic hardening on the existing injectors? There are companies in Southern California that do it.




jeff

Edited by: dmax lover

I have used stanadyne from day one and will continue to use it, unless I like the total power Dmaxallitech sold me better, but it did not stop injector failure. One is craked and one is stuck.
Scott


I notice from your signature that you have modified your motor quite a bit. Just to make me "feel better" - I was hoping to see someone with stock setup who has used stanadyne lubricity additive and hasn't had any injector failure...


jeff

Well, Jeff, If I am burning less fuel at the same engine rpms, then I am flowing more cooling and bypass fuel flow so the answer is YES!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif


I repeat myself, step back and think about it for a second.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Edited by: Idle_Chatter

Well, Jeff, If I am burning less fuel at the same engine rpms, then I am flowing more cooling and bypass fuel flow so the answer is YES!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Dang. Got me there!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif But where are failures happening? What's the tip of the injector called - is it "pintel"? - what about cooling and lubrication of pintel?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

jeffEdited by: dmax lover

Jeff, most of the injector failures to date have been (1) manufacturing/design defects (copper compression cups at the injector/head interface, factures or leakage in the injector bodies caused by assembly or clamping force) or (2) internal corrosion/wear issues (water, contaminants). The way I see it, unless you are using a VanAaken (BullyDog) pressure box (which Edge Juice IS NOT) there is no way that the use of an Edge Juice is going to remotely increase or decrease the risk of the above. You got your injectors installed wrong or you get water/contaminants in your fuel - end of story. I use FPPF and have installed a Kennedy Mega Post-OEM filter, so I'm trying to avoid number 2 and have so far been lucky on number 1 even though I have a "known issues" 2001 truck. Edited by: Idle_Chatter

Please let me add something about what I have seen regarding additives, this is in no way an endorcement or a condemning of a product


I have a customer that first approached me in May 03 with suspected injector problems. He mentioned that when he started noticing trouble, he started using FPPF Total Power. His symptoms cleared up and I told him to quit running the additive for a while until he could bring it to me ( ended up being 3 weeks before I seen it after additive was no longer used) I inspected the truck, didnt notice anything abnormal, checked the balance rates, all were very good. Long and short of it is that I found nothing wrong with the truck at that point. In Sep, the truck started showing symptoms again, rechecked the truck and balance rates were all way out of spec. Ended up replaceing all 8 injectors and also installed a Kennedy Mega filter. Cust now runs FPPF in every tank and truck runs like a top. Truck in question was on 01 with around 80k when problems started, had about 95ish when injectors were replaced, I think its 105ish now.


I have had a customer bring two of his trucks to me, both with Racor 660 filters pre, both using stanadyne additive in every tank, between the two trucks, I have replace 14 injectors and 1 fuel pressure regulator, truck 1 is an 01 with 75k on it and truck 2 is an 03 with less then 10 on it.


It is important to note that all three of these trucks were/are running a juice module.


What does all this mean, dont konw, just putting the info out there.

Well, in my 99 6.5TD Tahoe I ran Stanadyne full-time. I ran Stanadyne in that truck because it had a Stanadyne injection pump and many of the pump failures were associated with pump lubrication and internal wear produced by low-lubricity fuels. I thought that an additive produced by and for the pump by the pump manufacturer was definitely the way to go. Although Stanadyne additives have many additional properties, they were originated for lubricating a completely different fuel delivery system and I just didn't see them as being appropriate for my Bosch system. Therefore, I've been using and will continue to use FPPF and it looks like a good choice.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

But where are failures happening? What's the tip of the injector called - is it "pintel"? - what about cooling and lubrication of pintel?


Jeff, the tip of the injector is needle/nozzle, I believe. Cooling and lubrication occurs there on every injection pulse as the high pressure fuel passes the opening needle into the cylinder and then high pressure fuel accumulates in the chamber above the closed needle awaiting the next injection. However, abrasion and damage occurs simultaneously in the sealing surface of the needle/nozzle if the fuel is contaminated.

More thinking outloud... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Assuming 20% drivetrain losses with a 90HP Juice, the crank should see about a 108HP increase at the peak. Thats about 36% increase in HP again at the peak. Elsewhere the HP increase will be less. Can anyone explain how 36% HP increase can be accomplished with timing and a small % increase in fuel???


Other points to make regarding fuel economy. If one doesn't drive with the Juice at the max HP level, nor drives all day at the HP peak, you won't see an enormous fuel consumption difference. I drive more with the torque end of the RPM band than HP, so I tend to not blast loose at traffic lights. Also, towing with the Juice may enable you to maintain the more efficient overdrive gear allowing you a fuel savings. Other than that, power boxes apply more fuel, more heat, and more wear. Guaran-f'in-teed. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Can anyone explain how 36% HP increase can be accomplished with timing and a small % increase in fuel???


The plain-vanilla, corporate-committee-approved and system-wide GM programming for your engine is NOT the most efficient or finely tuned application of the art. It is a generic blending of emissions standards, engineering compromises, demographics and conservative measures. My main concern that kept me from installing a Juice for some time was that my SB truck was prone to breaking traction at the rear wheels in the wet. I thought that adding HP and torque would only make the condition worse. Guess what? WRONG! The rear end would break loose because the OEM programming "denied" fuel at low throttle settings (to reduce emissions until the turbo had spun-up) and then would "dump" fuel to catch up with demands when it had decided the turbo was boosting. My throttle response is smoother and power at the low end is much greater with the Juice. Where do you burn most of your fuel? At constant (towing speed) NO! Stop and go, lower throttle and higher starting loads. The Edge programming is not toeing the Corporate line and is allowing our engines to reach much more performance potential WITHOUT ADDITIONAL STRESS by not being "ham-strung" by the constraints placed on the manufacturer. I'm sure that some of the constraints in OEM programming are actually more detrimental to the longevity of our engines - their program is to meet guidelines - not to optimize engine life or efficiency. I'm not going to debate it any further - I suggest you do what I do - make your own informed decision and do what you feel is best for you and your truck. Note that I am never stating that you MUST install an Edge box, just relating my experience. Rant off, beer open!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

<~~running the juice on level five stacked and not looking back, towing or plowing unless egt says no

My throttle response is smoother and power at the low end is much greater with the Juice.


Agreed, Edge makes a great product. From a system persective however, it's not perfect. The transition from cold temp to running temp occasionally results in loud engine noises perhaps related to the pilot injection being disabled. This temp transition also has the Allison shifting rougher until the temps and HP are nominal to the last powered up settings. To me, a stock Dmax is by far the smoothest, it's no comparison.





The Edge programming is not toeing the Corporate line and is allowing our engines to reach much more performance potential WITHOUT ADDITIONAL STRESS by not being "ham-strung" by the constraints placed on the manufacturer.


Step away from the beer and try to quit reading those conspiracy theories. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Although it may not seem like it at times, money making corporations only care about providing a good product, at a reasonable price and, in the end, growing the business. GM's no different. If backing out the HP in 1st gear adds longevity and reliability, it meets the company's objectives.


Maybe something was missed in the translation, but your comment about the Juice not adding ADDITIONAL STRESS is extremely silly. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifEdited by: Ray403Dmax

alot of every thing mentioned i beleave nobody is wrong and right. lets look. any preformance mod. is pushed and sold to make money right.in the gas world mods are added to what. kick the but of the guy next to you. ok on the track we put thousands of dollars down a year to drag race. you see guys put lons in a motor a well built one that has race many time down the track to put anothe monster carb cam what ever to increase. hp'how many time do you see the tree hit green and only rods go flyin. and so it goes in the diesel world i would say 5 years ago juice owners or any diesel mod owner never had a diesel. they coud not accelerate smoked and where loud.
now its all different and new. diesel sales are coming up as we see the hp's and torque and most of all when you see a d/max juiced neck and neck with a corvette
you tur heads. its all about money and what we want. it all out there or will be out there. does juice hurt injectors. well it tricke the pcm timing. to dump more fuel. not psi.psi increases with rpms. as fuel increases so does the temp inside the combustion chamber. one thing i see with diesels they love rpms.look at tractor pulls.any way as a tech and certified i dont know everything yet i know more then the average joe. in and assembly line market juice cant be all good. maybe someone will make preformance mechanical parts for d/max
not just a computer. you know cam piston crank injectors ect. bigger is faster but mor likely to break.

Are you saying we need to move more air and not just more fuel?