The fuel system on the Duramax has some basic things in it that unless your willing to do some major changes will cause limitations in the power output of the motor as well as longevity of the components once you upgrade the power level. In its original configuration it works OK but as soon as you begin adding things like additional filters, performance enhancements and such, you quickly overrun the capability of the system. Once this happens you put more stress on the components and will cause them to fail prematurely. Let’s start where Bosch did and look at what happening within the fuel system and its requirements. The first thing it needs to do is supply fuel to the fuel injectors, it must also supply fuel to cool and lubricate the injectors. It uses a CP3 high pressure pump to supply this fuel. The CP3 is a two stage pump that draws the fuel from the tank through the EDU to supply cooling and factory filter into the low pressure stage. The low pressure is feed to the fuel pressure solenoid which is controlled by the ECM and lets the low pressure fuel into the high pressure side of the pump where is raises the fuel pressure to a maximum of 23,000 psi in stock configuration. It also supplies the fuel to cool and lubricate the CP3 pump internals. Any extra fuel from the low pressure stage is returned via the return lines with the cooling fuel from the injectors to the fuel cooler and back into the tank.

Once you begin to add components they place additional restrictions on the fuel supply. Adding an additional fuel filter causes the low pressure pump to work a little hard, adding a pressure type box causes both the low pressure and high pressure stages of the pump to work harder and places additional pressure on the injectors and fuel lines, adding a programmer causes the pretty much the same thing other than the increase in pressure on the lines and injectors. If we go and look at Bosch’s original design you will find that GM cut out a component from the system, I’m sure in an effort to save money. All the Bosch documentation calls for a lift pump to supply the fuel from the tank to the low pressure stage of the CP3. If you look at the Common Rail Cummins you will see that they use the same setup as the Duramax except they did not drop the lift pump. In the Cummins application they use a lift pump to supply 15 – 19 psi to the low pressure stage of the CP3. Another difference is the Cummins does not have and EDU that uses the fuel for cooling.

So can we safely apply the lift pump to the Duramax application like Bosch had designed it? The answer is yes. Installing a lift pump will not only improve the performance but it will also extend the life of the components by reducing the work load they have to do. The thing that we have to be safe with is we do not damage any components in the process. If we use the Cummins as a safe level one would assume you can place 15 – 19 psi to the low pressure stage with no problems. Well this is OK for the CP3 and injectors but as it turns out this is not OK for the stock fuel filter assemble and the EDU as they were not designed to withstand this pressure. So now you have to cross the bridge of how much are you willing to change the factory system? If money and time is not a consideration the factory filter assembly can be replaced and the EDU can be placed on a modified fuel system, but for most people this is more than they are willing to do. In our testing we took the EDU and placed it on a test stand and placed a dial indicator such that it hit on the bottom side of the case and then placed another indicator on the top side of the case. We then began to raise the fuel pressure going through the EDU. At 5 -6 psi the cases of the EDU began to move slightly as measured on the dial indicators. As the pressure was raised we saw more movement all the way up to 20 psi which is where we stopped testing. After completing the first test we set the EDU up and ran fuel at 5 psi through the unit for ~720 hours to see if we got any leaks, none were found. We than raised the pressure up to 10 psi and reran the test. After ~720 hours no leaks were found. So from this data we assume that the unit can handle 10 psi but one must remember that in a truck application that the EDU is subject to heat and vibration that we did not test with.

We then contacted Racor who makes the factory filter assemble and were able to talk with the engineer who did the design of the unit. After several conversations we found that the weakest points of the factory assembly were in two places. The rubber diaphragm in the hand pump element and the plastic water in fuel assembly. It was his recommendation that we not exceed 12 psi in the filter assembly. So when you combine the EDU testing with the Racor recommendations we feel it’s safe to run about 8 – 10 psi on the factory system without problems. Pressures above this would require these components to be changed and/or modified. Now that we have some pressure numbers it was time to make the lift pump system and begin testing on what’s required and what Hp levels can be supported. To date we have completed two lift pump systems and have rated them by what we feel is the maximum RwHp level they will safely support. These are complete kits with all the necessary mounting hardware and electronics to safely control them. After installation if for any reason you wanted to remove the lift pump the factory system can be reinstall as no lines are cut or modified! Both kits come with the same safety features:

• Digital microprocessor controls
• Auto 2 sec. prime at key on
• oil pressure safety pump operation
• fused wiring with under hood sealed fuse
• switch override for priming factory filter when changed
• Factory push lock fuel fittings and hoses
• Full bypass operation
• Two stage pump operation (dual pump kit only)

Single pump kit good up to 350 RwHp
Duel pump kit good up to 450 RwHp

Looks sweet, nice write up....that outa feed the beast.

The install pictures are of my truck. I recognize my dirty fingers. The install was a little time consuming but not as hard as having to drill holes and trying to install generic brackets that fit Dodge ,Ford, or anything out there. This kit is made for the Duramax. The pumps are silent. I really like the way TTS set the pump to work in stages ( I will let Steve Cole explain that). When the install was finished I went out and did some launches in the Extreme program. I pulled mid range and top end better than ever. These pumps work.:ro) This is just another stage in my Duramax mods to spank Kat. ):h More stuff coming.

mike

This is just another stage in my Duramax mods to spank Kat. ):h More stuff coming.

mike

Good you are going to need all the help you can get :exactly:

Do I like the part about it being silent the one on Big Blue is noisey :(

Are they reliable? What kind of pumps are they?

so when is it going to be on the web?

Jim

I like !

Idahofox

What issues will I have when using the lift pump in conjunction with my Racor secondary kit?

As you can see in the picture of the circuit boards we have a few hundred of these kits going together. Kits will be on the shelf end of the week. The single pump kit looks the same less one pump. The hardest part of the install is removing the original fuel line from the sender to the frame rail. On '04 LB7's it requires you to drop the tank down about 6" to get the line out, on all the others we've done you can get the line off without dropping the tank down. Once the line is removed the kit bolts in place and the new lines snap back in place. The electronics are install in the bottom of the fuse/relay center under the hood. You will need to locate a few wires to connect the electronics to and route the wires down to the fuel pump assembly. All connectors necessary are supplied with the kit so it just takes you a few simple hand tools to do a complete install.

It should be on our Web site next week sometime. I am not familiar with the Racor secondary kit but unless it installs where we do the only thing you need to check on would be to see if it can operate under pressure without damage.

Looks good, Steve. Will these pumps benefit LLY's very much? If so, what is the price for the dual setup?

Cool setup!

Looks Like John was right about the daisy chain ability of the pumps

Well done!

Putting pumps in series or parallel has been done for years so it's not a new idea by any means so unless John is 75+ years old it isn't his idea. Also, how would he know anything about these pumps since he has clearly stated before that he does not use these pumps.

The principal of two pumps in series is the same as turbo's in series............. it compounds the outlet pressure. Putting two pumps in parallel compounds the volume. Since the CP3 has a fixed orifice inlet the only way to increase the volume it receives is to increase the pressure feed to it. Think about it................ if you have a fixed orifice and you want to get one cup of fuel through the orifice in 5 seconds it will take "x" pressure to do it. Then lets say we now need two cups fuel but we also need it in 1 second. The only way to achieve this is to increase the pressure to "y" to do it.

This is exactly what's going on in the truck as engine speed increases time gets shorter and shorter. When you increase the power output you asking for more and more fuel. Any truck with increased power will benefit from adding a lift pump kit. I should have the final kit prices by Wednesday, so shoot me an E-mail or PM then for prices.

Looks like a lot of thought went into it.....good job on the R & D.

Uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh....

So, bein's that your Extreme makes 500 rwhp, is this kit gonna be enough?

The duel pump kit will be at it's limits with the Xtreme that's for sure. We have some safety margin in our specifications so that these kits will work on all trucks all the time and meet our specifications. We still have another kit we are working on for the big boys. It will not be ready until later this year and it will support fuel for 700 + Hp. but the CP3 will not support that much power. Our development is based on a new CP3 and our big fuel kit, we are still working through the bugs of getting it all to work properly. These two kits will cover 95% of you. Diesel Power has been running the duel kit for the past few months testing them for us with his Xtreme so he may be able to better answer some of your questions.

OK, two more questions:

1) if either of the pumps fail, can the system suck through them itself, or should a bypass be planned for?

2) "at it's limits for the extreme"....does that mean they'll be drawn down to zero or negative psi, or are we saying it'll make a couple psi, just not the 8-10 you're looking for?

When I grow up I wanna be a big boy :D

OK, two more questions:

1) if either of the pumps fail, can the system suck through them itself, or should a bypass be planned for?

Yes suck through themselves


2) "at it's limits for the extreme"....does that mean they'll be drawn down to zero or negative psi, or are we saying it'll make a couple psi, just not the 8-10 you're looking for?

No still positive


When I grow up I wanna be a big boy :D


Good

You can disconnect the wiring and it will drive like stock, completely flow through. The problem with putting pumps in series is you only increase pressure not volume. These pumps will reach there volume limit with the Xtreme so the pressure will fall to about 2 - 3 psi. Adding more pumps in series did nothing for the problem, this is why we have the bigger pump were working on. Adding our fuel pickup helps as well. Like I said these are only good for so much and we have rated them as such. We expect to see 5 years, 100,000 miles of trouble free operation when run within our specifications.

....is a pre filter required?
What about dirt or gel in the system, will they handle that?
No pre-heater needed?

Putting pumps in series or parallel has been done for years so it's not a new idea by any means so unless John is 75+ years old it isn't his idea. Also, how would he know anything about these pumps since he has clearly stated before that he does not use these pumps.

The principal of two pumps in series is the same as turbo's in series............. it compounds the outlet pressure. Putting two pumps in parallel compounds the volume. Since the CP3 has a fixed orifice inlet the only way to increase the volume it receives is to increase the pressure feed to it. Think about it................ if you have a fixed orifice and you want to get one cup of fuel through the orifice in 5 seconds it will take "x" pressure to do it. Then lets say we now need two cups fuel but we also need it in 1 second. The only way to achieve this is to increase the pressure to "y" to do it.

This is exactly what's going on in the truck as engine speed increases time gets shorter and shorter. When you increase the power output you asking for more and more fuel. Any truck with increased power will benefit from adding a lift pump kit. I should have the final kit prices by Wednesday, so shoot me an E-mail or PM then for prices.


Actually, it was you who clearly satated a direct link to the mfr and series of pump that I am using.

N-C ....

No reason to cry over spilled milk as no rational adult discussion will be permitted here.

Over the last few years it has become apparent how some get there info and ideas for the products they release,purchase and advocate. A little thanks or acknowledgment would be appreciated, no chance of that.

It is always up to the end user as to whos product they choose to install on there beloved trucks. There is always more then one choice.

No Coleslaw for me.

No reason to cry over spilled milk as no rational adult discussion will be permitted here.

Some aren't capable of "rational adult discussions" lately. :rolleyes:

:exactly: :exactly: :exactly: Idahofox

We did not build the pumps we use, they are store bought. What we designed was the electronics and mounting hardware to make a complete user installable kit. We did the necessary testing to make sure our design works as advertised.

If your looking to do testing you may want to look at one of these. Althought not really called out for diesel they do look just like some of the one pictured above.

http://www.lainginc.com/D_Series.htm

John, You need to make your mind up. When I posted a link to some pumps we found you said the following:

The units that I am using are not the ones pictured, and are being built specifically for Kennedy Diesel.

I have never hidden the fact that these are bought pumps that anyone can get. John denied this fact but now he seems to be changing his tune. Look at the features of our kit and deside for yourself what you would like to use

• Digital microprocessor controls
• Auto 2 sec. prime at key on
• oil pressure safety pump operation
• fused wiring with under hood sealed fuse
• switch override for priming factory filter when changed
• Factory push lock fuel fittings and hoses
• Full bypass operation
• Two stage pump operation (dual pump kit only)

Single pump kit good up to 350 RwHp
Duel pump kit good up to 450 RwHp
http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4668&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4668) http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4669&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4669) http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4670&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4670) http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4671&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4671) http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4672&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4672)

http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4673&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4673)

Sorry to break in here......I'm slow today.
Ok, I'm a bit lost here. The Xtream (500HP box) will work on LB7 'without' a pump yet, the pump system says 350 and 450HP? Can you clear that up for me? :think:

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/images/kdliftpump1.gif

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That's what I'll be getting soon...

I was just pointing out that it is obvious that the kennedy diesel pump isn't an off the shelf pump.

I thought there were multiple post from Dieseltech and other members stating that any LB7 under 450 RWHP does not benifit from a lift pump?

If so what are the exact dyno and 1/4 mile gains one would expect when running a TTS 80 with these pump?

How about the gains one might see with TTS 120 and these pumps?

How about the gains one might see with an EXTREME and these pumps?

Comparison dynos and time slips would be helpful.

Bronco

If you go back and read the first post in this thread you will find just what you've asked for. Also I do not feel it's worth repeating things as you do not seem to want to believe the answers anyways. The fuel supply issue has been beat to death before and I provided dyno graphs then and you did not believe them.

Max Power

While I agree his pump looks different why is he complaining about our kit. He is the one saying now we are using the same pumps as he is when before he has clearly stated they are not. He doesn't make a kit, just buys and sells parts.

Burner

We have always recommended a lift pump with the Xtreme program, that has never changed. We have event provided before and after dyno graphs to show why we recommend them. If you reread my first post in this thread I have tried to explain why they are needed there.

Honestly, I just forgot where the answers were. I'm guessing that the pumps life would be shortend and you'd have some bursting issues?

IMHO, a "stock" system, no boxes ect, would benefit from a good liftpump(s) and extra filter. ;)


How much PSI does it take to 'push past' the CP3? Would having a very very small (about 1/2 of pull) pump on the return line help? I don't know how the sudden release or surge would affect the system? ie, let-off. Would a lift help MPG?

Thanks

I guess I'm more confussed then ever. For the past two years there have been dozens, if not hundreds running around at well over 450 rwhp without any type of added fuel pump. In fact the gereral concenus has always been we don't need anything until about 500 rwhp. Now this contraption comes along that fixes nothing if it`s only good to 450 rwhp. I guess we must have money to burn!

I want to know, FOR WHAT? With an after market turbo, injectors, and a stack, these trucks are putting down well over 700 rwhp with existing pumps on #2.

You are not going to push past the CP3 and that is not what we are doing. If you were to disassemble the CP3 and follow how the fuel enters and exits the low pressure pump you would understand, maybe. What we are doing is supplying the fuel to the low pressure stage of the CP3 to keep it filled with fuel at the HP level stated for each kit. We are pushing a small amount past the low pressure stage where the gears meet in the housing. Go back to my earlier post in this thread and read what I stated there.

"Think about it................ if you have a fixed orifice and you want to get one cup of fuel through the orifice in 5 seconds it will take "x" pressure to do it. Then lets say we now need two cups fuel but we also need it in 1 second. The only way to achieve this is to increase the pressure to "y" to do it."


Since the Cummins Common Rail uses the same CP3 pump and uses a lift pump to supply it and Bosch (who designed the common rail system) calls out for a lift pump to be used with it and all of our testing shows its needed to keep the CP3 low pressure stage filled I guess isn't good enough for you guys. Running around without a lift pump and High Hp is just asking for trouble down the road. There will always be some engines that run better than others but there more the exception than they are the rule. Let's look at all the High Hp guys running out there and I think you will find most if not all have some sort of a lift pump installed. You will also find most if not all are running 6 - 15 psi for pressure.
There is not one Duramax anywhere making 700 RwHp on #2 only! All Duramax units running in that range are using extra power adders such as propane or NOS or both with lift pumps!

on edit: corrected spelling

Looks good! Will the wiring be the same for these pumps as it will be for the next higher horsepower pump you are working on? It would be nice to just swap out the pumps. It would be nice to need to have to swap out the pumps for something more. :grd:

I guess I'm more confussed then ever. For the past two years there have been dozens, if not hundreds running around at well over 450 rwhp without any type of added fuel pump. In fact the gereral concenus has always been we don't need anything until about 500 rwhp. Now this contraption comes along that fixes nothing if it`s only good to 450 rwhp. I guess we must have money to burn!

I want to know, FOR WHAT? With an after market turbo, injectors, and a stack, these trucks are putting down well over 700 rwhp with existing pumps on #2.

Could this have anything to do with the Fuel System Failures some have seen?.

Questioning minds you know.:rolleyes:

Idahofox

You are not going to push past the CP3 and that is not what we are doing. If you were to disassemble the CP3 and follow how the fuel enters and exits the low pressure pump you would understand, maybe. What we are doing is supplying the fuel to the low pressure stage of the CP3 to keep it filled with fuel at the HP level stated for each kit. We are pushing a small amount past the low pressure stage where the gears meet in the housing. Go back to my earlier post in this thread and read what I stated there.

"Think about it................ if you have a fixed orifice and you want to get one cup of fuel through the orifice in 5 seconds it will take "x" pressure to do it. Then lets say we now need two cups fuel but we also need it in 1 second. The only way to achieve this is to increase the pressure to "y" to do it."


Since the Cummins Common Rail uses the same CP3 pump and uses a lift pump to supply it and Bosch (who designed the common rail system) calls out for a lift pump to be used with it and all of our testing shows its needed to keep the CP3 low pressure stage filled I guess isn't good enough for you guys. Running around without a lift pump and High Hp is just asking for trouble down the road. There will always be some engines that run better than others but there more the exception than they are the rule. Let's look at all the High Hp guys running out there and I think you will find most if not all have some sort of a lift pump installed. You will also find most if not all are running 6 - 15 psi for pressure.
There is not one Duramax anywhere making 700 RwHp on #2 only! All Duramax units running in that range are using extra power adders such as propane or NOS or both with lift pumps!

on edit: corrected spelling

Not trying to take sides here, but......

Diesel Tech does have a point....

Eliminating a vacuum in the fuel system will usually lessen the chance of air bubbles, therefore less chance of cavitations in the fuel system that can cause potential erosion.

Higher HP = more suction = more chance of inducing air into fuel system.
Less air in the fuel should equal a higher concentration of fuel at the injector....:)

.....

Eliminating a vacuum in the fuel system will usually lessen the chance of air bubbles, therefore less chance of cavitations in the fuel system that can cause potential erosion.

Higher HP = more suction = more chance of inducing air into fuel system.
Less air in the fuel should equal a higher concentration of fuel at the injector....:)

YES :exactly: , without mods.

Idahofox

If a kits bought for an LB7... will it be able to be installed on an LLY at a later date?

How about those Los Angeles Angels? Another win tonight and still leading their division. :D

Where exactly does the unit mount? I'm trying to figure out if it's going to work with my Racor setup or not.

Kel,

it mounts right in front of the fuel cooler/in front of the tank

Oh the insanity

Nut it's pretty clear where you stand,we all got it.It's far off the question and answer or information gathering it should be.

Thanks for understanding

Thanks for making it a little more clear for my depleted brain! As for 700 on #2, a member here dyno`ed his truck at 7xx on number two only. I did not see the event, but did see the slip, that`s the only proof I have, right or wrong, I don't know!

You are not going to push past the CP3 and that is not what we are doing. If you were to disassemble the CP3 and follow how the fuel enters and exits the low pressure pump you would understand, maybe. What we are doing is supplying the fuel to the low pressure stage of the CP3 to keep it filled with fuel at the HP level stated for each kit. We are pushing a small amount past the low pressure stage where the gears meet in the housing. Go back to my earlier post in this thread and read what I stated there.

"Think about it................ if you have a fixed orifice and you want to get one cup of fuel through the orifice in 5 seconds it will take "x" pressure to do it. Then lets say we now need two cups fuel but we also need it in 1 second. The only way to achieve this is to increase the pressure to "y" to do it."


Since the Cummins Common Rail uses the same CP3 pump and uses a lift pump to supply it and Bosch (who designed the common rail system) calls out for a lift pump to be used with it and all of our testing shows its needed to keep the CP3 low pressure stage filled I guess isn't good enough for you guys. Running around without a lift pump and High Hp is just asking for trouble down the road. There will always be some engines that run better than others but there more the exception than they are the rule. Let's look at all the High Hp guys running out there and I think you will find most if not all have some sort of a lift pump installed. You will also find most if not all are running 6 - 15 psi for pressure.
There is not one Duramax anywhere making 700 RwHp on #2 only! All Duramax units running in that range are using extra power adders such as propane or NOS or both with lift pumps!

on edit: corrected spelling

As for any add on component we need black and white ET improvements.
These trucks run fine from the factory and if I am browsing in the performance forum I need performance improvements. I don't care so much as how much my fuel supply has improved if I gain no ET. :rolleyes:

Well I see no answers to Broncos questions. Where are the tests results for ET improvements, if that is indeed what were all after ? Most of us don't need details of the working products.
The ET was this ___ before the install and this ___ after the install.
The compomnents on the test truck are the following .................
Realiability is always needed.

The ET was this ___ before the install and this ___ after the install.
The compomnents on the test truck are the following .................
Realiability is always needed.

I think what John, Nick and Steve are trying to tell us is, our fuel system or the fuel pump can scavage it's self to death. On high HP boxes this does become an issue. ...truck don't werk without a goot fuel pumpe. ):h
Really though, the dyno curves seem to show better curves, better curves should = better times & longer life.

Perhaps I am incorrect, but I thought the point that Diesel Tech was making is that by adding the pump(s) it should help to increase the reliability of the fuel system as a whole when using power adders. From what I read, it helps to relieve some of the load on the CP3 pump, which can only increase its longevity and reliability. I did not get the impression that by adding the pumps, one would gain more HP, TQ, or speed, but that all of those things are more easily attainable when one's fuel system is not overworked. It would seem to me that anyone wishing to add more power would want to start prepping by improving the fuel system or should I say helping to relieve the strain on the fuel system to maximize the potential of the power adder.

Can one survive without the pumps? Sure. How long will the fuel pump in the truck last without lift pumps while pushing big HP numbers? Who knows.

Why take the chance of wearing out things prematurely when it can be avoided?

Burner, you beat me to it! :D

Duratys

Currently one kit fits both LB7 and LLY but who knows what GM may do in the future.

HDmax

I have never heard of or seen any Duramax run at 700 or above RwHp on #2 alone. Someone post Clint's truck did but then came back and added he was also running propane so maybe that's where the confusion was.

gmccall

We posted dyno graphs of the improvements before. The idea here is to improve power output and keep from damaging other components in the fuel system. One only needs to look at how Bosch designed the system to be build to see that they have called out for a lift pump. At the power Level GM is making GM felt it was not needed not Bosch, so it was left out. Now you as a consumer up the power output and that is no longer the case. Chisuzu has it down pretty well so maybe his post answers some questions I have not. Every test we have done on Higher Hp programs has shown an improvement in power output with lift pumps in place. We see power improvement start down around 350 RwHp level and the higher you go the bigger it is. The reason for a single pump kit was to keep the cost down for those who do not want to add big power while giving them the protection to the fuel system they need.

Diesel Tech

If I understand the post here, it is not to assure ET gains from a Lift Pump, although that is always nice, but to help keep your current fuel system from failing.

Maybe I wil catch on.

I'm sure we all need and want any component to aid reliability and that alone may be worth the expense. Each owners call, if we are lowering the realiability of our stock fuel system with high HP components.

Intersesting.

I would think that a truck with a fuel starved engine would run slower than a well fed one. If you're to the point of bursting vs not bursting it would be an even bigger difference would it not?

One only needs to look at how Bosch designed the system to be build to see that they have called out for a lift pump. At the power Level GM is making GM felt it was not needed not Bosch, so it was left out.

The research I have performed,read about and been informed of differs from this statement.

It is my understanding that the factory fuel system was designed specificaly to be a sealed system with no need for an electric pump. The benifit is 2 fold.

First there is one less part that needs to be serviced and maintained. Sure electric fuel pumps can last a long time but when you have 1 millon trucks running in heat, freezing rain,sleet,snow,mud,underwater and so on, the failure rate will add up.

Second the factory system was designed to filter the fuel and remove air before it ever reaches the injector tip. Alls one has to do is measure all of the air being retuned down the factory return line and also inspect the design of the factory pickup and CP3 to see this was a design concern. All auto manufatures have been seriously addressing air in diesel fuel and air in transmission fliuid for a few years now. They are not stupid.


As far as a very high horsepower system needing some help, I would agree. Also a fuel system with alot of added restrictions would benifit. Assuming your clean aftermarket filter actually cause extra restricition. I have seen measurments as low as .5 hg added vacum with high quailty filtration.

A number I would like to have presented is the vacum created on a stock fuel system high horse power compared to the vacum created with these pumps installed yet in failure mode? I am curiuos as to what type of vacum one or two of these TTS pumps creates when installed yet not operating with a high HP tune?

Basically the extra vacum they create in failure mode with a big tune?

______________________

No Coleslaw for me.

The research I have performed,read about and been informed of differs from this statement.

It is my understanding that the factory fuel system was designed specificaly to be a sealed system with no need for an electric pump.....

Your Understanding differs from My Understanding.

What/who is your source reference, an undisclosed GM engineer. This is a very Detailed Perspective of the Fuel System.

First there is one less part that needs to be serviced and maintained. Sure electric fuel pumps can last a long time but when you have 1 millon trucks running in heat, freezing rain,sleet,snow,mud,underwater and so on, the failure rate will add up......

What....Electric Fuel Pumps are not reliable,,,or Electric Fuel Pumps are not reliable when you have 1 millon trucks running.....underwater and so on,,,,

How can that be Presented and make it believable.

Second the factory system was designed to filter the fuel and remove air before it ever reaches the injector tip. Alls one has to do is measure all of the air being retuned down the factory return line and also inspect the design of the factory pickup and CP3 to see this was a design concern.

What were the results of these measurements, you did this, right?

All auto manufatures have been seriously addressing air in diesel fuel and air in transmission fliuid for a few years now. They are not stupid.......

I believe you.


As far as a very high horsepower system needing some help, I would agree. Also a fuel system with alot of added restrictions would benifit. Assuming your clean aftermarket filter actually cause extra restricition. I have seen measurments as low as .5 hg added vacum with high quailty filtration.

A number I would like to have presented is the vacum created on a stock fuel system high horse power compared to the vacum created with these pumps installed yet in failure mode? I am curiuos as to what type of vacum one or two of these TTS pumps creates when installed yet not operating with a high HP tune?

Basically the extra vacum they create in failure mode with a big tune?

I have the same questions, while you are testing the TTS pumps would you please test all of the other pumps being used. Thanks.

No Coleslaw for me.

We're not having Coleslaw today.

Idahofox

This system should benefit the new filter design.

Anyone else notice the 3-5%% drop off (sometimes better at WOT) when running big programs?

Better filter (I hope so) Less flow ... YUP

The research I have performed,read about and been informed of differs from this statement.

If you have done any research I would suggest you go to the source of information ......Bosch! You might want to lookup Bosch Diesel-Engine Management 3rd Ediition, Bosch Automotive Handbook 6th Edition or Bosch Diesel acumulator fuel-injection system Common Rail. After all they hold most if not all the patents on common rail fuel injection and just happened to build the one used on the Duramax. All of these books say you are misinformed. If that's not good enough you might try Cummins or MAN engines as they must also be wrong since they use a lift pump as well on the common rail. No matter what I tell you, you will disagree so instead of believing me just get up and truly do the research.

I believe "Dr Evil", who do you believe?

www.ttspowersystems.com

Let your Purchase's do the voting, Are We Voting?

Idahofox

I believe "Dr Evil", who do you believe?

www.ttspowersystems.com (http://www.ttspowersystems.com/)

Let your Purchase's do the voting, Are We Voting?

Idahofox

I have no vote. I am waiting for the mechanical pump. I have seen too many failures on CTD's with electric pumps.

I'd gladly give up .15 HP to drive it. Self priming, no electrons to rely on.

Could we Hook an additional Mechanical Pump on the Serpentine drive, some where, or where?

Ohhhhh, a new CP3 pump, why was I sooo slooww.

We would have to be able to afford the upgrade, or not. :cool:

So much for the Every Day Driver. Thanks!

Idahofox

I have no vote. ..... no electrons to rely on.

Don't purchase a DMax then! :mad:

Uh oh, to late! :eek:

Idahofox

How would these work in conjunction with a FASS system. ot my Tech II and looking at my rail pressure under some what hard pull and it was only like 19000 something and it should have been like 23000 something will these pumps solve that problem?

If you have done any research I would suggest you go to the source of information ......Bosch! You might want to lookup Bosch Diesel-Engine Management 3rd Ediition, Bosch Automotive Handbook 6th Edition or Bosch Diesel acumulator fuel-injection system Common Rail. After all they hold most if not all the patents on common rail fuel injection and just happened to build the one used on the Duramax. All of these books say you are misinformed. If that's not good enough you might try Cummins or MAN engines as they must also be wrong since they use a lift pump as well on the common rail. No matter what I tell you, you will disagree so instead of believing me just get up and truly do the research.



The pressure concept sounds really great, especially, if Diesel Tech's new system has a way to remove air bubbles instead of just compressing them like some other systems.

BadMan! :ro)

Anything will help that poor belegaured CP3

Gotta Love TWINS in anything! :ROCK:

Could we Hook an additional Mechanical Pump on the Serpentine drive, some where, or where?

Ohhhhh, a new CP3 pump, why was I sooo slooww.

We would have to be able to afford the upgrade, or not. :cool:

So much for the Every Day Driver. Thanks!

Idahofox

There are a lot of trucks running the mechanical pumps most are competing trucks and Daily Drivers. Yes it can be hooked to the standard accesory drive with a little bit of ingenuity.

There is nothing wrong with an electric pump. The advantage I have is seeing a lot of them go ^^'s up. Seen it mostly in the Dodge ranks; and that has made me 'gun shy' of electric lift pumps

Now, Both Steve Cole and John Kennedy have a NEW electric pump out. They both look like a nice piece of kit!:ro) Great Stuff and well done guys!:ro)

What are the advantages of your kit Steve over whats currently on the market? If we can achieve keeping fuel supply pressures at 2-3 psi at WOT with single pumps not twin pumps. I dont think that supplying more than 2-3 psi at WOT is adding any benefit to the capabilities of a stock CP3 so i'm not concerned with your system dropping to those numbers under full fuel demand but i just want to see what advantages this kit has over others. thanks, matt

Rut-Roe Schaggy

Rut-Roe, Ya', Shaggy

Idahofox

There are a lot of trucks running the mechanical pumps most are competing trucks and Daily Drivers. Yes it can be hooked to the standard accesory drive with a little bit of ingenuity.

There is nothing wrong with an electric pump. The advantage I have is seeing a lot of them go ^^'s up. Seen it mostly in the Dodge ranks; and that has made me 'gun shy' of electric lift pumps

Now, Both Steve Cole and John Kennedy have a NEW electric pump out. They both look like a nice piece of kit!:ro) Great Stuff and well done guys!:ro)

Are their NEW electric pumps Better than their Old electric pumps?

Idahofox

Are the NEW electric pumps Better than the Old electric pumps?

Idahofox

They are a better design for sure. Magnetic field driven (my 3 home computer systems have been running an eheim 1250 mag field pump for over 4 years)... less wear and tear on the pump itself. Both vendors have done their homework to make these. I would definately put them up against a holley or carter LP just on design alone.

IMHO with less 'contact' in the motor it should also exhibit less heat transfer to the fuel, less chance of entraining fuel vapour.

Not much more I can add. Their research on pumps has led them to this design. Two Well thought of vendors with similar design elements. Great minds think alike i guess.

There are a lot of trucks running the mechanical pumps most are competing trucks and Daily Drivers. Yes it can be hooked to the standard accesory drive with a little bit of ingenuity.

There is nothing wrong with an electric pump. The advantage I have is seeing a lot of them go ^^'s up. Seen it mostly in the Dodge ranks; and that has made me 'gun shy' of electric lift pumps

Now, Both Steve Cole and John Kennedy have a NEW electric pump out. They both look like a nice piece of kit!:ro) Great Stuff and well done guys!:ro)

In your judgement, what is the ratio of mechanical pump/electrical pump failure? Let's go with the Best pump, if we can afford it.

Idahofox

In your judgement, what is the ratio of mechanical pump/electrical pump failure? Let's go with the Best pump, if we can afford it.

Idahofox

I am not qualified to judge these new pumps. I know i trust my expen$ive computers to the same operating principles. Would I trust a Magdrive in my Duramax? Yes.

Time will tell the tale. I know for a fact the mechanical pump has had no failures in 3 years.

I dare not hijack this thread any further.

John Kennedy; Steve Cole; A Lot of hard work went into the design of this setup and I believe you both have a winning combination to offer the enthusiasts here!

They are a better design for sure. Magnetic field driven (my 3 home computer systems have been running an eheim 1250 mag field pump for over 4 years)... less wear and tear on the pump itself. Both vendors have done their homework to make these. I would definately put them up against a holley or carter LP just on design alone.

IMHO with less 'contact' in the motor it should also exhibit less heat transfer to the fuel, less chance of entraining fuel vapour.

Not much more I can add. Their research on pumps has led them to this design. Two Well thought of vendors with similar design elements. Great minds think alike i guess.

That's realy great, I was not aware that you could power Home Computers with an (eheim) Aquarium Centrifugal Pump, good job.

Dr. Marconi did extensive work with Magnetic Drive theroem in the 1930's, most of what we know about Magnetic Drive today, is from his studies.

I am not familiar with All of Dr. Marconi's studies; I do know that, No One, has an Exclusive understanding of his theroem, (old hat). New design, new concept, new application, OK; that's New Hat.

Idahofox

Let me preface this by saying my truck has historically been on the low side of fuel supply. 2 years ago i could run teh same tune as 5 other people and my truck would burst, theirs wouldn't. adding a lift pump cured this problem for me. i don't know about ET's on the track, but it did help bring my dyno numbers up. until i got a good lift pump i was stuck in the 430ish range. note- others have had better luck with the oem system that i did. I've ran a total of 5 different lift pump setups so far and this is by far the quietest. Single pumps run at 3PSI at idle. if i run both it makes 6PSI at idle. Running the single pump, i can pull my autometer 0-15psi gauge down to zero. when i run both pumps, i can't drop it down lower that 2-3PSI on a 0-100mph run. bear in mind this is with one of my CAT filters in front of it- which isn't ideal. I did initially run the pumps without the CAT filter in front of them and did several runs, all of which i datalogged with the tech2. i really expected the results to be better w/o the CAT filter in front of the filters. However i was quite surprised to notice i couldn't measure any difference in fuel pressure on my gauge, nor FPR% or Actual vs. Desired rail pressure between the two setups.

Hopefully this helps.

Is using the term CP3 just the latest craze for the HP pump? Or is it something different?

For two years just about everyone here talked about the HP, now all I read/see is CP3. Would someone please explain for us dummies? :) Was everybody wrong all a long?

Let me preface this by saying my truck has historically been on the low side of fuel supply. 2 years ago i could run teh same tune as 5 other people and my truck would burst, theirs wouldn't. adding a lift pump cured this problem for me. i don't know about ET's on the track, but it did help bring my dyno numbers up. until i got a good lift pump i was stuck in the 430ish range. note- others have had better luck with the oem system that i did. I've ran a total of 5 different lift pump setups so far and this is by far the quietest. Single pumps run at 3PSI at idle. if i run both it makes 6PSI at idle. Running the single pump, i can pull my autometer 0-15psi gauge down to zero. when i run both pumps, i can't drop it down lower that 2-3PSI on a 0-100mph run. bear in mind this is with one of my CAT filters in front of it- which isn't ideal. I did initially run the pumps without the CAT filter in front of them and did several runs, all of which i datalogged with the tech2. i really expected the results to be better w/o the CAT filter in front of the filters. However i was quite surprised to notice i couldn't measure any difference in fuel pressure on my gauge, nor FPR% or Actual vs. Desired rail pressure between the two setups.

Hopefully this helps.

Are you refering to running a single pump as only running one of steve's or just all the others you have tried. We sually set our FASS pumps to 10 psi at idle and dont see lower tan 2-3 psi at WOT which i feel is adequate as long as there is SOME fuel pressure because this means the gears are full and creating a pressure not a vacum.

Is using the term CP3 just the latest craze for the HP pump? Or is it something different?

For two years just about everyone here talked about the HP, now all I read/see is CP3. Would someone please explain for us dummies? :) Was everybody wrong all a long?

The CP3 is what our duramax's high pressure pumps are, thats what supplies fuel to our fuel rails. So everyone has a CP3 and thanks to ATS's research some have better ones than others. Most people on here have had problems with getting enough air to burn up what their stock CP3 could supply to the engine so there hasn't been much need for a modified CP3 until the new turbos started being added a couple months ago. Matt

hdmax, What Matt said. Also, remember that we have the LB7 and LLY mixed in here as well as folks with moded injector replacement.

We sually set our FASS pumps to 10 psi at idle and dont see lower tan 2-3 psi at WOT which i feel is adequate as long as there is SOME fuel pressure because this means the gears are full and creating a pressure not a vacum.

This is where I disagree, one needs first to understand a few things about what is going on in the internal parts of the CP3 to fully see the overall picture. The fuel system in our trucks is basically a fixed orfice type system. What this means is that there is a restrictor of a fixed size in the fuel supply. This restrictor is the inlet portion of the CP3 pump to the low pressure inlet. So with this fixed restrictor you can only flow so much fuel at a given pressure if you need more fuel the only way to get it is to raise the pressure to force more through the restrictor. Now for the second part of the problem it's called time. As an engine turns faster you have less and less time to get the low pressure pump filled. So you need to do two things to make this work properly. Fill the low pressure stage of the CP3 and do it in the time allowed.

The only way to achieve this is by raiseing fuel pressure based on fuel demand and engine speed. This is what our dual pump system does, but it has it's limits. That's why we have rate them by RwHp. You can run more Hp than what we have rated them for but the rating is the point at which we start to drop pressure below what is required to fill the low pressure side of the CP3 completely at max engine speed. There is no reason to run 10 psi at idle as it only requires ~ 1 psi to do the job at idle. If you have a lift pump and it's dropping pressure from 10 psi to 2 psi it means you do not have enough volume present to make pressure, because after all what is pressure? It the extra volume of the pump that cannot be pushed through the restrictor. If you look at any fuel system from a design standpoint you run lower pressure at idle/ low demand and higher pressure at WOT/ High demand, this system should be no different. As power goes up so does the fuel demand, this requires more pressure to get the fuel through the fixed orfice internal to the CP3.

We have one more fuel pump kit we are working on for higher Hp application but it will not be ready until later this year. The systems we have released are what they are and will cover 99% of the needs of you out there. The rest of you looking for every last little bit will have to wait awhile longer before we have completed our testing and put the new kit into production.

Are you refering to running a single pump as only running one of steve's or just all the others you have tried.

Diesel Power has run lift pumps from other suppliers with mixed results. What he is talking about is running our single pump kit Vs our dual pump kit. Since our kits are complete flow through we can switch one pump off and test which is what he did during testing. So you can see trying to run our single pump kit at his Hp levels doesn't work properly, but running our dual pump kit does. For those customers who are happy running an LB7 with ~ 120 RwHp over stock the single kit will be fine and they can spend less money for the single kit. For those customers running more than + 120 RwHp up to 450 RwHp on an LB7 they need the dual kit. Now as far as the LLY goes a single kit is good for ~ +90 RwHp and a dual Kit is for up to 450 RwHp.

That's realy great, I was not aware that you could power Home Computers with an (eheim) Aquarium Centrifugal Pump, good job.

Dr. Marconi did extensive work with Magnetic Drive theroem in the 1930's, most of what we know about Magnetic Drive today, is from his studies.

I am not familiar with All of Dr. Marconi's studies; I do know that, No One, has an Exclusive understanding of his theroem, (old hat). New design, new concept, new application, OK; that's New Hat.

Idahofox

Marconi had a little help from Mr. Tesla. :D

Let me preface this by saying my truck has historically been on the low side of fuel supply. 2 years ago i could run teh same tune as 5 other people and my truck would burst, theirs wouldn't. adding a lift pump cured this problem for me. i don't know about ET's on the track, but it did help bring my dyno numbers up. until i got a good lift pump i was stuck in the 430ish range. note- others have had better luck with the oem system that i did. I've ran a total of 5 different lift pump setups so far and this is by far the quietest. Single pumps run at 3PSI at idle. if i run both it makes 6PSI at idle. Running the single pump, i can pull my autometer 0-15psi gauge down to zero. when i run both pumps, i can't drop it down lower that 2-3PSI on a 0-100mph run. bear in mind this is with one of my CAT filters in front of it- which isn't ideal. I did initially run the pumps without the CAT filter in front of them and did several runs, all of which i datalogged with the tech2. i really expected the results to be better w/o the CAT filter in front of the filters. However i was quite surprised to notice i couldn't measure any difference in fuel pressure on my gauge, nor FPR% or Actual vs. Desired rail pressure between the two setups.

Hopefully this helps.

Diesel Power

On a 0-100mph run,

What kind of pressure drops were you noticing w/o the CAT filter on your Actual vs. Desired rail pressure with and without a pump set up?

About not trusting electric fuel pumps?

Don't buy a car made in the last 10 years, they all run them.

A mechanical pump is a good idea, and are available with huge flow numbers. How many guys are going to use them when an electric will work? Probably not many.

Read this
http://www.turbocompressori.net/common_rail.htm

Excellent info, it's good to have those with the knowledge and know how in our corner working on this problem.
Now for what everyone wants to know..

Show

Me

The

Money

(as in how much does each unit cost..and none of this secret squirrel stuff, I know what a homemade carter setup cost, I know how much SD's excellent setup costs.. put yer cards on the table..or someone just mite git kilt...):snipersmi :boxing: :ninja:

yes, i was talking about running one of the tts pumps when i said single. when i ran the preporator, i had it set for 9PSI at idle and i could pull it down to 2-3 at WOT w/ tts extreme.



Are you refering to running a single pump as only running one of steve's or just all the others you have tried. We sually set our FASS pumps to 10 psi at idle and dont see lower tan 2-3 psi at WOT which i feel is adequate as long as there is SOME fuel pressure because this means the gears are full and creating a pressure not a vacum.

The only thing that has me intrigued about the mechanical setup vs electric, is that instead of high pressure high volume at idle and lower pressure lower volume at High Demand for electric single stage pumps.

The mechanical pumps work in the opposite manner by their being engine driven. Low RPMs and load... low delivery rates. Where load and revs climb, the delivery rates match in lock step.

One side note to the magdrive pumps.
The one cooling my computers has been running a water/ammonia solution for 3 years 24/7 while running the F@H cancer research shared computing program (100% processor demand)

With the high heat generated by the Athlon Processors, at full crank like this, the thermal loading is in excess of 380 watts (processors are a little overclocked)

I do believe the inherent durability of the Magdrive pumps. If they can survive that mixture of ammonia and water for that time frame, diesel should be a breeze.

The fuel system in our trucks is basically a fixed orfice type system. What this means is that there is a restrictor of a fixed size in the fuel supply. This restrictor is the inlet portion of the CP3 pump to the low pressure inlet. [/QUOTE]

This might be a stupid question, BUT:

Why couldn't we open up the fixed orifice that is restricting the CP3 to help overcome some of the pressure/volume issues??

Diesel Power

On a 0-100mph run,

What kind of pressure drops were you noticing w/o the CAT filter on your Actual vs. Desired rail pressure with and without a pump set up?

I'm interested in the desired/actual numbers themselves.

This might be a stupid question, BUT:

Why couldn't we open up the fixed orifice that is restricting the CP3 to help overcome some of the pressure/volume issues??

Not stupid at all. It is purely a cost issue, the passage ways through the CP3 are in two different parts of the pump assemble. One part needs to be remade to do it correctly and the other has been heat treated and harden. So this would need to be machined carefully then re hardened. So by the time you do all this plus the labor to install the CP3 the numbers do not work out. We have done it about a year back and it does help but I do not believe any of you would spend the necessary money to pay for it, I know I would not! So we developed the lift pumps to give us the pressure needed to do the job.

The dual pump kit does run in stages so it's not high pressure high volume at low demand areas and low pressure low volume in high demand areas. This is just why we designed and built our own electronics. This is just one of the features of our electronic control circuit!

We will begin shipping complete kits on Tuesday as Monday is a holiday. I do not think we are suppose to post prices here so I have posted them over in the Vendor Forum under TTS Lift Pumps.

on edit: add where to locate prices

Diesel Tech .... Congratulation on your newest product!

As I recall, you posted a progress report several months ago on this project, and I think you mentioned plans to include an option for a secondary fuel filter. If so, it this something that is still in the works?

Thanks.

Here's a link to the price...

http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33425

Here's a link to the price...

http://http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?p=584143#post584143
link no work for me!

same here, just scroll down on the main page to vendor forum.

Fixed it...

Just tryin to help...

http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33425

null

OOPS!! I am running a predator with edge and have severe bursting, will the single pump or the dual pump work better for me. I am assuming this is a fuel supply problem?? Any suggestions??

You should use the dual pumps since you are stacking and asking for as much as you can get.

These pumps can be turned on and off with a switch or do they need to be on all the time? Do you need a different fuel filter or a second one to run these pumps? I just run the juice right now. Will it hurt anything to add the pumps. I will need pumps after my trans gets done, but I want to know what order to do things in.

The pumps are supplied with a microprocessor controlled set of electronics. The system will only run what is necessary and has full safety features built in. It is not necessary to add any additional filtration because of these pumps. They will not hurt a thing but may improve your power output on the higher levels of the Juice. If one wanted to add a switch you could cut the Ign. power wire and run to a switch to disable the pumps from running and since they are a full bypass type pump the truck just return to running as it did stock.

These pumps have '0' pressure @ Idle?

Thanks for answering my question. I didn't read all the posts before I asked (as you could tell) and I just noticed how many posts there were. I feel stupid!! Sorry!

Don't worry about it, the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask and knew you should have.

These pumps have '0' pressure @ Idle?

Steve allow me to answer this stupid question


No :D

Mac,
What's the pressure @ Idle anyway? Can you activate a W/O switch for lot'sa smoke or a N02 run? And, how does heat affect the pressure? Would it be better to have them draw a filter or pressure a filter? ....Where would a heating element go anyway?


Thanks,

Burner

Don't worry about it, the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask and knew you should have.

Well Steve, with that being said ........

I read in another post discussing the FASS system, that the truck would surge once the tank level was down to 1/4 full. The thread went on to say it would happen around 1/2 full when the truck had an upgraded fuel pickup. The explanation was that the lift pump was sucking the pickup dry.

Is this a problem with all lift pumps, including the TTS system or is it unique to the FASS setup?

If this is an issue, I don't understand why this happens. Even at a quarter tank, wouldn't the pickup be totally submerged in the fuel?

Thanks.

Hi,

i had a preporator (basically same as a fass). the reason the problem you mention exists is because of the return line from the regulator on the pump. its returns so much it runs the pickup dry.

the pumps steve is using don't have a return line, therefore that problem doesn't exist. with the preporator i could only run to half tank then it was all over. running both little pumps i run until low fuel light comes on, and then usually put 26.1 gals in my 26 gal tank.

Burner- single pump= 3psi at idle. both running =6psi at idle. WOT extreme run takes me down to about 2 PSI..

i have both my pumps after my nicktane filter. i tried it two ways -1) filter before pumps and 2) no filter at all, just pumps. all my tech2 snapshots netted the same results for FRP and actual vs. desired rail pressure. so while i thought the prefilter would hurt it, it doesn't seem to make any difference (at least on my truck).

Well Steve, with that being said ........

I read in another post discussing the FASS system, that the truck would surge once the tank level was down to 1/4 full. The thread went on to say it would happen around 1/2 full when the truck had an upgraded fuel pickup. The explanation was that the lift pump was sucking the pickup dry.

Is this a problem with all lift pumps, including the TTS system or is it unique to the FASS setup?

If this is an issue, I don't understand why this happens. Even at a quarter tank, wouldn't the pickup be totally submerged in the fuel?

Thanks.

BH in AZ

The reason those type pumps run the pickup dry is that they suck the fuel from the pickup area out faster than this area is refilled when below 1/2 tank. This is a problem with a pump that returns 90% of the fuel it sucks out at idle and low speed. We do not have this issue as we have no return line and only run one pump at low fuel demands.

Diesel Power and Diesel Tech .... Thanks for the replies.

It sounds like a great product, especially since it gains a .1 of a gallon on each fillup! ("....usually put 26.1 gals in my 26 gal tank"). Diesel Power, hope you're not a pilot, unless you are also a sky diver.

Mac, you're not answering my questions..............

Mac,
What's the pressure @ Idle anyway? Can you activate a W/O switch for lot'sa smoke or a N02 run? And, how does heat affect the pressure? Would it be better to have them draw a filter or pressure a filter? ....Where would a heating element go anyway?


Thanks,

Burner

If you would go to my first post you will find most all of the answers your looking for. The only one not address is the location for a heating element as it has none. The only time you may need a heating element in the pump would be at temps below -20*F. The issue about fuel filters all depends on what filter your running so there is no one answer for that.

Thanks Steve

Mac, you're not answering my questions..............


I'm not running Steve's set-up but my own,under advice of a very knowledgeable Friend.I'm running 7.5 at idle can't pull it below 3 PSI at WOT! Runs 7 PSi at 70 MPH,same pumps.

Dig it!

My set-up is top secret with the exception of some guy in (?) and those privileged I've shown. :D

Not you,yet :p:

What would you want with pumps?Your running a Edge box exclusive,no transmission modes.Correct me if I'm wrong?

Just spooning around are you? :rolleyes:

KAC -:t *hairball*

Mackin

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee................. you will let the cat out of the pumps.

I seen the spy photo's...................:p: :p: :p:

Very nice install indeed..........:)

T:cool: NY
.
.
.
.

Pressure is the resistance to flow. With that being said, pumps do not create pressure they create flow. When you add these pumps you are attempting to increase the flow past the orifice which raises pressures and creates heat as the fluid speeds up. What am I missing as it seems to me that adding pumps or enlarging the orifice accomplishes the same thing. Isn't it the job of the orifice to restrict the flow to protect something downstream? What is it protecting? Very interesting....

Pressure is the resistance to flow. With that being said, pumps do not create pressure they create flow. When you add these pumps you are attempting to increase the flow past the orifice which raises pressures and creates heat as the fluid speeds up. What am I missing as it seems to me that adding pumps or enlarging the orifice accomplishes the same thing. Isn't it the job of the orifice to restrict the flow to protect something downstream? What is it protecting? Very interesting....

I don't think it's trying to protect anything. In the stock configuration the orifice is optimal size. When the power-adders are installed and are demanding more fuel the size of the orifice is too small. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I found the pumps on your website. What is the install kit?

ttt

I believe the install kit for $80 on that page is for the Fuel Pick-Up. It includes all of the necessary AN fittings to increase the outlet on your fuel sending unit to -10 AN.

You wouldn't need it for the pumps. I believe everything you need for installation and use of the fuel pump(s) is included in the kit price listed for the one or two stage kits.

The TTS website shows a pickup for $95 and an install kit for $80. I bought the Trippin pickup and -10an fitting kit from Trippin. I am wondering if the install kit is the -10an kit??

Well I see there are a few new questions that need to be answered here. The reason you add lift pumps is to increase the volume of fuel that goes into the low pressure pump when raising the Hp level above stock. The volume is determined by the time and pressure. Since the low pressure pump has to fill each pump cavity to get the full amount each cycle and unfilled area is wasted. In stock configuration the pump does not fill completely but it more than enough to supply at stock power levels. The addition of the single lift pump kit will fill the pump at low speed and support 350 RwHp. The duel pump kit will fill the pump completely and support 450 RwHp. Now with that said you can run higher Hp with either kit but the fill levels will begin to drop in the low pressure pump above the rated numbers. Until someone builds a new low pressure pump you cannot adjust the restriction so pressure is the only other choice.

The pump kits are complete when you buy it. All you need is tools and time with our kits. The fuel pickup and install kit are for the fuel pickup. I designed the Trippin pickup as you called it so they are the same thing from TTS or Trippin. People have asked for the pickups by themselves so we list the pickup and the install kit for the pickup separately.

Would it be benefitial to run the pickup with the pumps?

Could you explain (for novices like me) what the pickup does (I assume it is the point where fuel is extracted from the tank), and why someone with a lift pump would want one and/or why someone without a lift pump would want one as opposed to the stock pickup? (in other words what does the am one do that the oem one does not).

Thanks

Its just larger than stock (1/2") (stock is like 3/8"). This allows for more volume to be picked up for higher horsepower applications.

Could you explain (for novices like me) what the pickup does (I assume it is the point where fuel is extracted from the tank), and why someone with a lift pump would want one and/or why someone without a lift pump would want one as opposed to the stock pickup? (in other words what does the am one do that the oem one does not).

Thanks

The Billet Pickup is a larger I.D. (.500) as compared to stock (.312). This decreases the restriction and allows any fuel pump or pump assembly to more easily draw fuel from the tank. This in turn increases the total volume that any fuel pump will be able to send to the motor.

For the record I don't know who this "DieselTech" guy is that claims to have designed the pickup. :D ):h





But seriously, the pickup was in fact designed and prototyped by Diesel Tech. I just applied a little CNC to the part and offered it for sale, with his permission. So whether you buy it from myself or TTS, you get the exact same part, manufactured by the same "guy". :D

So the pickup is a choke point in the stock configuration? I would think that the ID would be equal to or larger than the ID of the lines themselves.

So the pickup is a choke point in the stock configuration? I would think that the ID would be equal to or larger than the ID of the lines themselves.

Remember, in a lift pump situation the pickup is on the low pressure side of the pump. Meaning it has to draw the fuel up to the pump. The fuel is then pressurized and sent through the lines on the truck to the engine. More pressure=more flow for a given orifice.:D

Most pumps are really good at pushing fuel, not so good at pulling fuel. :(

Thank you!!

manufactured by the same "guy". :D

:funnypost :lol: .

The pump kits are complete when you buy it. All you need is tools and time with our kits. The fuel pickup and install kit are for the fuel pickup. I designed the Trippin pickup as you called it so they are the same thing from TTS or Trippin. People have asked for the pickups by themselves so we list the pickup and the install kit for the pickup separately.

So basically you are saying that the pickup and install kit are included in the single and duel pump kits? or am I mistaken?

So basically you are saying that the pickup and install kit are included in the single and duel pump kits? or am I mistaken?

Yes, you are mistaken. The pickup/install kit are seperate from the lift pumps.

So basically you are saying that the pickup and install kit are included in the single and duel pump kits? or am I mistaken?

If you want to see pictures of the tank mod Trippin has it on his website in his SIG there is a link, I also have PICS of both the MODS in my PICS link in my SIG as well.

If you saw what the stock fuel pickup looks like and the small hose and restrictions in the system you can appreciate the parts Trippin and Diesel Tech have put together,

Good Luck to you,

T:cool: NY
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So basically you are saying that the pickup and install kit are included in the single and duel pump kits? or am I mistaken?

Sorry if I confused anyone. The pump kits are complete pump kits, by that I mean the hoses, clamps, Electronics, wiring................... are all included with the kit so you the customer has to make nothing to install them. All you need are tools and the time to do it.

The Fuel pickup and Fuel pickup install kit are seperate items. We started them as a kit but found out most people only wanted one or the other so we split them apart so you can buy either part by itself. They are not part of the lift pump kits.

Do you have the lift pump install instructions in a PDF?

ok so a very simple explantion for this is a lift pump is really just there to feed fuel forward so the stock pump doesn't have to work so hard. basicaly your force feeding the stock pump because the stock pump has a hard time sucking fuel that it demans with added hp. am i right with what i am saying. now the pickup tube is just to small and can not flow the fuel that the motor needs for added hp.
we that are in the hp industry know you can't have anough back up fuel ready to be used.ok now the max fuel pressure you want to travel forward it 10# is this correct.
i'm new to the diesel world but a motor is a motor to a point blah blah.

ok so a very simple explantion for this is a lift pump is really just there to feed fuel forward so the stock pump doesn't have to work so hard. basicaly your force feeding the stock pump because the stock pump has a hard time sucking fuel that it demans with added hp. am i right with what i am saying. now the pickup tube is just to small and can not flow the fuel that the motor needs for added hp.
we that are in the hp industry know you can't have anough back up fuel ready to be used.ok now the max fuel pressure you want to travel forward it 10# is this correct.
i'm new to the diesel world but a motor is a motor to a point blah blah.

One needs to remember a couple of things about pumps in general. There are two types of pumps, one's that suck well but do not build much pressure/volume and one's that build great pressure/volume but will not suck much if anything. The stock system was design for stock Hp levels and at that there are restrictions. The fuel pickup is the biggest one in the system at stock power levels and it also makes any pump work harder as it's in the tank and all fuel has to go through it. Once the fuel leaves the tank it travel to the fuel lines to the fuel filter and water separator then to the low pressure stage of the CP3 injection pump. So that means the low pressure pump has to be one hell of a sucker to pull the fuel through everything all the way to the front. Problem is this is the last thing one wants for power. The stock pickup is 5/16" ID and the fuel lines are 1/2" OD steel tubing. Our replacement pickup is 1/2" ID and the install kit is 5/8" ID hose but the fittings on the end reduce it to ~1/2". This takes all the restriction out of the pickup and feed line to the frame rail mounted fuel lines. The lift pump kits remove the factory line from the sender to the frame mounted lines. The Dual pump kit will automatically switch the pumps off/on as the demand for fuel increases, so it's a true on demand system. The single pump kit will switch the pump off/on but only has one speed. This way we feed the stock low pressure pump with fuel from the tank just as Bosch had originally designed the system.

We do not have instructions in .pdf format but the install photo's at the beginning of this thread show pretty much everything.

So my -10an kit and the pickup will work together. I am installing a Nicktane filter kit too. I think I am putting it after the pumps because the pumps work better at pushing than pulling. I hope this all works!!

I would run the pickup to the pumps then the output of the pumps to the Nicktane. If you have a new Nicktane kit Just leave the TTS supplied outlet hose off the pumps and use the hose supplied in the Nicktane kit and go to the pump outlet. Then return from the Filter to the steel line on the frame. We have had several people do this already so it works fine. You will nee to remove the 1/2" inlet fitting in our pump and replace it with a 5/8" inlet fitting to go with you -10 hose kit. The inlet to the pumps is threaded 1/2" NPT.

So my -10an kit and the pickup will work together. I am installing a Nicktane filter kit too. I think I am putting it after the pumps because the pumps work better at pushing than pulling. I hope this all works!!

That is how I installed mine, except I moved my Nicktane Fiter to a custom bracket I had made just forward of the fuel cooler......either way will work, the lines were going to be a little longer than I wanted going back up to the filter and then back down to the frame.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8384&d=1126226846

That is how I installed mine, except I moved my Nicktane Fiter to a custom bracket I had made just forward of the fuel cooler......either way will work, the lines were going to be a little longer than I wanted going back up to the filter and then back down to the frame.

http://image52.webshots.com/52/8/37/76/407183776ffZDEW_ph.jpg

Nice red X. How much pressure are you holding at WOT on kill? ;)

Nice red X. How much pressure are you holding at WOT on kill? ;)

Must be your PC............because it's linked from my WEBSHOTS album whcih is online 24/7...not on my PC...........:p: :p: :p:

Change your crummy browser settings or your anti-virus settings and you might see it............):h ):h ):h
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Must be your PC............because it's linked from my WEBSHOTS album whcih is online 24/7...not on my PC...........:p: :p: :p:

Change your crummy browser settings or your anti-virus settings and you might see it............):h ):h ):h
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Webshots wont allow a host ,bet I'm not the only that can't see it.


But here is the rust bucket :p:

AWWW.............

It is a RED X............:eek:

WTF........:rolleyes:

MY BAD...............me so sorry.............:D
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Diesel Tech.

I have a question that was not covered in the installation directions that I could find.

The gray wire for the override primer function should be grounded or powered to operate the function?

I assume it should be grounded based on how you have the pumps controled under normal operation. I just wanted to double check.

Thanks

Is this a flow through kit incase the pump brake?:confused:

The truck will still run as if they were not there if you disconnect the power to the pumps. Read Deisel Tech's posts at the beginning of this tread for the low down on the pumps. He covers almost every question you may think of.