I'm driving an '06 LBZ.

First, let me say that I'm a fan of Amsoil and I've seen some amazing differences in non-diesel applications. Especially their 2-cycle oil. So, I filled my engine with Amsoil 15-w40 when it hit 13K miles. This was the second oil change since new. The first time I used Rotella. Since I expected accelerated wear metals to show up due to break-in I did not get an analysis the first two times. Fast-forward to today: 10K on the Amsoil and the oil life monitor finally said it's time. I pulled a sample and sent it to Blackstone Labs for analysis. Here's the copy-n-paste of their comments:

The Isuzu 6.6L is one of the best wearing diesel engines on the market right now and generally they look great.
That wasn't the case in the first sample from your 2500, though. Wear was very high here and we wish we could just
chalk it up to being due to the engine breaking-in. That may be the case but copper was high enough here to be
considered cautionary. We suggest having this oil changed and running your next oil just ~5,000 miles. Check back
then for another look at wear. The TBN read 5.9 so you still had lots of active additive left. 1.0 is low.

Now, I'm not sure what to think about this. Is it possible that an engine this new is still just breaking in? It has been treated to a very gentle life with most loads being less than 6K and the heaviest loads (10K) being less than 2 percent of it's use. I drive like a granny most of the time too in order to maximize fuel mileage. 80% of trips are in the 10-30 mile range with shorter trips very rare and multi-hundred mile trips also uncommon, but not unheard of. I plowed snow with the truck for about 30 hours too.

Just on the off-chance that this high wear rate might be oil related, I went ahead and changed the oil back to Rotella today and I'll pull another sample at 5K and switch back to Amsoil for the next 5K so I can get a good with Amsoil/without Amsoil comparison both with about 5K and hopefully comparable duty.

Anybody else experience high wear on oil analysis like this? BTW, Copper was 701 ppm vs the standard of 10. Iron, Lead, and Tin were also higher than normal.

It could be break-in materials still, but I'm not sure. IMO 10,000 miles is too far to go on an oil change without some sort of bypass filter. I've changed mine ever 5,000 since I bought it. I'll have to send my oil in for an analysis when I get home to see what they say about mine. I've run rotella 15w-40 since 35,000 miles. Two oil changes before that where Mobile 1 5w-40 synthetic. Truck has 65,000 miles on it now.

I use Amsoil Series 3000 Diesel Oil - 5W-30 and experienced the same copper leaching.

Copper contamination is not a problem if there is no coolant leaking. Copper comes from the oil cooler copper coil oxidizing when new. It is not an item requiring action. The copper leaching will diminish as the engine ages.

Oil Analyzers, Inc. states:
If only the copper is high, but no other metals such as lead, tin, or aluminum are elevated, it is mostly an oxide of copper from the oil cooler. As the oil cooler is exposed to the heat from the engine oil, it can sometimes oxidize the copper, which will show up in the analysis report. This is considered a normal condition and no corrective action is required. This process usually will taper off or stop occurring over time.

From several Blackstone reports I have seen, I chose to use Oil Analyzers, Inc. their reports are more detailed and useful. Amsoil is not wearing out your engine. My oil was changed at 15,000 miles because it reached the recommended 2 year period. Changing to Rotella is a step backward, Amsoil far exceeds all other oils in protecting your engine against wear and oxidation (sludge).

Can you post the results? Couple things to keep in mind. The "normal' ranges on these reports are based on average intervals, so at 10k, they may look a little higher but sound like your may be more than that.
The next thing is switching oils will not give you a good indication either. Different chemistry in the oils may cause different elements to spike early on and then taper again, so be aware of that.
I would consider the first 10k to be a break in period and you had the same oil in there for most of that which may have contributed to the higher levels.
I do think checking at the next 5k is a good idea just to see where you are at.

Here's the rest of the report (assuming it comes through):

Don't worry about. :eek:

Amsoil's warranty will buy you a new engine... :D

I dont care what Amsoil or any other oil company says, for the first 30k miles I change the oil every 5k miles max!!!
Anyone who has tried to get a company to live up to a "warranty" or "promise" knows they are not happy about paying for a new engine and addmitting that there product failed.

one thing to remember is if you have 13k now and have 10k on that oil .... it was put in at 3k. The engine is still in the break in stages at that mileage. I would do as they suggest, do the next test at 5k and see what you get. That would be a more valid test.

Which oil and filter are you using?

Just for a comparison, here's mine with 9838 miles on Mobil1 5W-40.

http://www.thewolfweb.com/photos/00506563.jpg

one thing to remember is if you have 13k now and have 10k on that oil .... it was put in at 3k. ...Which oil and filter are you using?

Read the original post again and look at the report more carefully... I put the Amsoil in at 13K and ran it for 10K. Why would you ask what oil I'm running when the title of the thread has AMSOIL in it?

The next thing is switching oils will not give you a good indication either. Different chemistry in the oils may cause different elements to spike early on and then taper again, so be aware of that.
I do think checking at the next 5k is a good idea just to see where you are at.

X2 IMO 10K isn't to long there have been lots of ok UOA posted at that interval. But until you get this straightened out I would cut back to 5K-7K. Have you done anything with the air filter your Silicon in high?

Read the original post again and look at the report more carefully... I put the Amsoil in at 13K and ran it for 10K. Why would you ask what oil I'm running when the title of the thread has AMSOIL in it?



i asked because there are multiple types of AMSOIL


i did misunderstand the 13k and 10k though.


Sorry.

i asked because there are multiple types of AMSOIL


i did misunderstand the 13k and 10k though.


Sorry.
ahhh, now I'm the dummy not you... :rolleyes:
I used Amsoil Heavy Duty Diesel and Marine 15-w40. Not the new "emission friendly" stuff.

ahhh, now I'm the dummy not you... :rolleyes:
I used Amsoil Heavy Duty Diesel and Marine 15-w40. Not the new "emission friendly" stuff.

no dummies, just questions.

just curious what exactly you were running ..... Your numbers are definately abnormal and something is not right. I look forward to seeing the results of your next 2 tests.

X2 IMO 10K isn't to long there have been lots of ok UOA posted at that interval. But until you get this straightened out I would cut back to 5K-7K. Have you done anything with the air filter your Silicon in high?
Good catch on the Silicon. I still have the original factory air filter. I'll change the air filter today too.

EDIT: HOLY SMOKES! That's not a cheap filter! I just dropped more for a filter than a tank of gas. The old one looked fine, the vacuum gauge hadn't even moved, and the inside of the air duct was as clean as the day it was new. Kinda leaves me guessing for where the silicon came from, but I now have a new air filter just in case.

I have had high silicone levels from my Blackstone UOA reports too. My air filter is clean, no holes in the IC boots. My thoughts on it are this: how did I take the oil sample? how did I fill the engine with oil? I might not have wiped the filler funnel out very well, it used to be in a box in the bed of the truck. I have a bypass filter with a quick tap for UOAs, the tap used to sit in my center console, my first UOA I dropped the sample container on the ground with the top off before I filled it. all could be sources of silica.

My last report was much better with better quality control of the oil sample on my part. I sent them a second sample of the same oil in my truck. Just something to think about.

x2
I would save that filter unless there is a flaw in it there is no way its bad. 50K-70K is the norm out of these filters I have over 60K on mine.

I use Blackstone and am thinking of changing maybe Oil Analyzers Inc.

You also could have high silicon from contamination at sample source. Meaning you may have got dirt in it yourself. I am not sure how you got your sample, but in the "dirt" world we use sample tooling. Meaning a sample suction gun and sample tubing. We always start with new tubing and an old bottle and draw a bottle. Then discard the dirty bottle and replace with a new bottle. This makes sure that any contamination you may have picked up is washed out of your tubing. This is usually done from the dipstick tube. We NEVER take samples from the oil drain pleg while changing the oil. There is too many opertunities to pick up contaminants such as silicon. We also only changed oils when the samples reccomended. Not by hours of service. Hours were not relevent in changes, only when sampeling. This is how I know and can tell you, that most people change oils way to early. We did this sampeling on all of our oils(motor,trans,finals,diffs,planetaries,etc) and coolant also. We even sampled our bulk oil tanks periodically also.

Check the resonator on top of the engine, in the intake duct. They are known for cracking at the seams and alowing dirt into the engine creating high silicon lovels.

I hope you're using the Amsoil engine flush when you're flirting with different oils.

why? oils blend just fine. You've been reading to many brouchures.....

Moved to Maintenance & Fluids

I'm driving an '06 LBZ.

........ This was the second oil change since new. ..........


How long was the oil in there??? That's low miles for a 2006 rig. If it sat in there for 2 years that would provide much time to leach copper from the cooler.

Did you say what oil filter you are using???

Here's another Mobil 1 TDT oil analysis with very similar total and sample miles on my rig (8 months on the oil):

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313874 (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313874)

High copper readings are common when switching lubricants. I have a service bulletin from Caterpillar explaining this somewhere... Could you ask blackstone what the average drain interval is for the universal averages that they provided? I don't think your wear metals in ppm per 1,000 miles are that high for a new engine, especially since it is using a new lubricant.

High silicon levels are common in new engines from the sealants used during engine assembly, it should continue to drop with each oil change. Take a look at the UOA history of my Navigator, the first UOA was the oil change immediately following the removal and reinstallation of the valve and timing cover(s).

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/162/navigatoruoa2.gif

Other than your wear metals, the additives are not right. Either Blackstone made a lab error, or perhaps you used an additive?
These numbers:
Calcium 6224
Phosphorus 1858
Zinc 2777,

are much higher than they should be.
In AME, calcium is typically at or around 3500-4000
Phosphorus is around 1200-1300
and Zinc is anywhere from 1300-1500

These numbers are general, but yours are way off.

If your silicon is high due to dirt ingestion, then the lead and iron will come down after you take care of the filter issues.
The Copper will probably subside over time. The other numbers are just plain odd...

Air induction is not the sole source of silicon in a new engine.

Silicon is a mineral related to carbon, it is usually found in brand new unused engines as sand residue left over from the casting process. It can also be found in residue from abrasive machining operations as silicon dioxide and silicon carbide.

My particular LBZ left a considerable amount of casting sand residue in the first coolant bypass filter element. This white sand is also present in any internal passages within the block - oil galley, etc.. Manufacturing process flushes do not remove 100% of the sand and casting scale especially from internal cavities. Silicon levels may be higher within a new engine for the first few oil filter changes due to residual sand begin liberated. Even with synthetic oil a more frequent filter change is a good idea until the engine is broken in. A 2 micron high-efficiency bypass filter is useful to remove these fine particles, including soot.

My LBZ had a silicon level of 12 ppm at the first sample (5,000 mi), 21 ppm at the second (10,000 mi) and 25 ppm at the third with 15,000 miles on the oil, showing an initial jump as silicon was liberated and then a tapering off.

Sample contamination or inaccuracy is most likely if the sample is taken from a Fumoto Valve or drain port where oil is removed from the bottom of the sump after settling, or road dirt is introduced into the sample. I use a 35 cc medical syringe and new tubing through the dipstick for each sample, discarding both after grabbing the sample. Sample is taken well above the bottom of the oil sump, and just after the warmed engine is shut off. It doesn't take much dirt to contaminate a 100ml sample when dealing with part-per-million levels.

Air induction is not the sole source of silicon in a new engine.

Silicon is a mineral related to carbon, it is usually found in brand new unused engines as sand residue left over from the casting process. It can also be found in residue from abrasive machining operations as silicon dioxide and silicon carbide.

My particular LBZ left a considerable amount of casting sand residue in the first coolant bypass filter element. This white sand is also present in any internal passages within the block - oil galley, etc.. Manufacturing process flushes do not remove 100% of the sand and casting scale especially from internal cavities. Silicon levels may be higher within a new engine for the first few oil filter changes due to residual sand begin liberated. Even with synthetic oil a more frequent filter change is a good idea until the engine is broken in. A 2 micron high-efficiency bypass filter is useful to remove these fine particles, including soot.

My LBZ had a silicon level of 12 ppm at the first sample (5,000 mi), 21 ppm at the second (10,000 mi) and 25 ppm at the third with 15,000 miles on the oil, showing an initial jump as silicon was liberated and then a tapering off.

Sample contamination or inaccuracy is most likely if the sample is taken from a Fumoto Valve or drain port where oil is removed from the bottom of the sump after settling, or road dirt is introduced into the sample. I use a 35 cc medical syringe and new tubing through the dipstick for each sample, discarding both after grabbing the sample. Sample is taken well above the bottom of the oil sump, and just after the warmed engine is shut off. It doesn't take much dirt to contaminate a 100ml sample when dealing with part-per-million levels.

So the oil can actually clean all the silicon residue left. I am not sure about the OP, but I think that is good.

Sample contamination or inaccuracy is most likely if the sample is taken from a Fumoto Valve or drain port where oil is removed from the bottom of the sump after settling, or road dirt is introduced into the sample. I use a 35 cc medical syringe and new tubing through the dipstick for each sample, discarding both after grabbing the sample. Sample is taken well above the bottom of the oil sump, and just after the warmed engine is shut off. It doesn't take much dirt to contaminate a 100ml sample when dealing with part-per-million levels.

I actually put the Fumoto Valve on to get better samples. I keep a home made cap using a 3" piece of the tubing with a bolt in one end hose clamped on and then the home made cap set up hose clamped on the nipple to keep it clean. I use a q-tip to clean the nipple before sampling and leave the engine running after warming the oil up to keep circulation up and settling of contaminates reduced while sampling. This method I feel gets a clean accurate sample that is a true reflection of what is circualting in the engine. Fumoto Valves Rock for sampling and changing oil.

"Fumoto Valves Rock for sampling and changing oil."

Amen!

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1493145#Post1493145

I have 1 more 2 1/2 gal container of AME left along with an EAO filter. If the next sample does not come back any better I am then switching back to Rotella dino.

If you really want to know how your engine and lube are co-existing, then you have to stick with one lube, and one UOA pattern (say every 5k miles) for at least seven (7) consequtive UOAs. (That can be expensive, and tests the ability of any bitoger to not dabble into other options.) After you do this series of 7 UOAs, you can then start to understand the ranges (bounds) and trends (slopes) of the attributes.

Looks like Otto & Dnew debate all over the place. :D The 7 consistant UOA's trend quote by Dnew makes sense. :cool:

Glad I decided not to go all anal on UOA's.... Would get expensive up the wazzu to do it right....... :eek:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313874

Looks like Otto & Dnew debate all over the place. :D The 7 consistant UOA's trend quote by Dnew makes sense. :cool:

Glad I decided not to go all anal on UOA's.... Would get expensive up the wazzu to do it right....... :eek:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313874


No debate, D's offering advice. Your right on cost of UOA's. I have had 4 vehicles where rotella has given me excellent results and longevity.

Besides who is to say that small uniform molecules (syn) are actually better for a motor.

I'm just afraid to ask what a BITOGER is....... :D

Nothing wrong with dino oil........ The stuff for diesel engines is some of the best oil out there........ Even on the Blackstone site it states they run dino in their own rigs...... :cool:

I used Kendall Super Duty oil in my boat. The cost from our local supplier is about the same as anywhere I can get it.

But, by using the Kendall I get free oil analysis.

I change the oil twice a season, once at about 125 hours (+-10) and once at the end of the season, usually less then 100 hours.

That's 10 analysis' per year, 2 engines, 2 transmissions and a generator.

Never gave it a thought of using the same oil in the truck ???

Well, When I posted the original question I didn't expect quite this much debate/chatter. I got far more than I asked for.

There were a few questions raised as well as guidance for how to answer them, so I'll try to boil down everything I've gleened so far:
The "copper leaching" subject was suggested to be a function of time as much as miles, which could be partly my fault for not driving my diesel as much as most people. I ran the Amsoil for 10K miles, but it took me 16 months to do it. If copper leaching is high due to the extra time the oil sat then we have one element explained. For the high lead, iron, tin, etc... Perhaps some of that can also be explained by the fact that the truck sat unused for several weeks at a time? There was one period that I only ran one tank of fuel in six months.

The clean/dirty sampling question shouldn't be too much of a problem. I washed out my syringe & hose with mineral spirits, blew compressed air through to dry it, then pre-lubed it with a few tablespoons of new oil that I discarded before pulling the sample. I pulled it through the dipstick tube after running the truck about 20 miles.

The Blackstone guys didn't mention anything about the silicon, so perhaps I'm mountain-climbing over mole-hills.

As far as filtration goes, I was using the Amsoil filter but not a bypass filtration system. The filter also had 10K miles.

I did not use any kind of additives. Straight Amsoil Diesel & Marine 15-w40.

I'm on a road trip right now running empty because my sedan was out of commission when I needed to leave. That means I'm rolling a lot of very easy miles on the engine (and buying too much fuel, but that's another story...) so when I get back I'll probably still have honey-colored oil. In order to get more meaningful lab results, I'll go ahead and change the oil again with another fresh batch of Amsoil and then restart the clock for a 5K sample. That means I'll probably be pulling my next oil sample around Christmas.

<SNIP>
Changing to Rotella is a step backward, Amsoil far exceeds all other oils in protecting your engine against wear and oxidation (sludge).

LMAO. Really? You have statistically significant, objective data to support that claim?

ahm

I'm on a road trip right now running empty because my sedan was out of commission when I needed to leave. That means I'm rolling a lot of very easy miles on the engine (and buying too much fuel, but that's another story...) so when I get back I'll probably still have honey-colored oil. In order to get more meaningful lab results, I'll go ahead and change the oil again with another fresh batch of Amsoil and then restart the clock for a 5K sample. That means I'll probably be pulling my next oil sample around Christmas.


Maybe I missed it, do you have your egr blocked and pcv re-routed?

I use Amsoil Series 3000 Diesel Oil - 5W-30 and experienced the same copper leaching.

Copper contamination is not a problem if there is no coolant leaking. Copper comes from the oil cooler copper coil oxidizing when new. It is not an item requiring action. The copper leaching will diminish as the engine ages.

Oil Analyzers, Inc. states:
If only the copper is high, but no other metals such as lead, tin, or aluminum are elevated, it is mostly an oxide of copper from the oil cooler. As the oil cooler is exposed to the heat from the engine oil, it can sometimes oxidize the copper, which will show up in the analysis report. This is considered a normal condition and no corrective action is required. This process usually will taper off or stop occurring over time.

From several Blackstone reports I have seen, I chose to use Oil Analyzers, Inc. their reports are more detailed and useful. Amsoil is not wearing out your engine. My oil was changed at 15,000 miles because it reached the recommended 2 year period. Changing to Rotella is a step backward, Amsoil far exceeds all other oils in protecting your engine against wear and oxidation (sludge).

Ummmm, using Rotella is NOT step backwards, as you put it. Amsoil is also not far superior in protection. The correct way to phrase this would be to say that maybe Amsoil is better at longevity if one is going to practice longer change intervals. It doesn't provide better film coating protection than any of the other leading brands of HDEO. Now, don't jump on the Amsoil bandwagon as I used it for 60k miles and had good results, but there are plenty of other results in UOA's with other brands (Rotella, Delvac, Delo) that show just as good if not better wear numbers. I currently run Delvac 15w-40 as it is a lot more cost effective than using Amsoil or other synthetics. Amsoil is 4x the price over using a good dino oil that has been proven. Do you think Amsoil provides 4x the protection or even 2x the protection? If so, you may be buying into their advertising a little too much, but I digress. Use what you will and you'll be fine either way as the Duramax is easy on oil and a good engine, but saying that Amsoil will be far superior to the other oils is just not true.

I hope you're using the Amsoil engine flush when you're flirting with different oils.

Why? No other oils blend with the Amsoil? Is it its own "special" formula that no other oils could possibly blend with in the same environment? I guess it must be considering the price per gallon. :rolleyes:

I'm just afraid to ask what a BITOGER is....... :D

Nothing wrong with dino oil........ The stuff for diesel engines is some of the best oil out there........ Even on the Blackstone site it states they run dino in their own rigs...... :cool:

bitog
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php