I recently read that the majority of 04 and later vehicles have black boxes, or Event Data Recorders as the manufacturers call them, installed. Should you have an accident your speed, braking and seat belt usage info is recorded and can be obtained by your insurance company or law enforcement for use in prosecution or lawsuits.

Who needs this? I see absolutely no benefit to the consumer, yet a huge downside should you make an honest mistake and be involved in an accident.

Does anyone know if GM trucks have these? And if so, how to remove them?

I don't like big brother watching me any more than anybody else, but if you're involved in an accident when you are obeying the speed limit, it would be nice to have documentation.

In our legal system you are innocent until proven guilty, so you shouldn't have to prove your innocence. I see the data as not providing any needed protection, but a huge potential liability should you be speeding and have a wreck.

Lots of other loose ends, like how accurate is the thing. I think they only record a small amount of data and replace it, how do you know it is functioning properly?

I know I don't want one on MY truck, I just don't want to do anything that might affect genuine safety items like airbags.

IIRC, GM pioneered this tech. Whether or not is on our trucks - I don't know.

In our legal system you are innocent until proven guilty, so you shouldn't have to prove your innocence. I see the data as not providing any needed protection, but a huge potential liability should you be speeding and have a wreck...
It is not a matter of guilt or innocence, but of fault.

There is also a sure fire way to avoid a liability should you have a wreck while speeding: DON'T SPEED-it will work every time.

The day is coming when the United States will have widespread automatic speed detection equipment similar to that used in most of Europe now. When you pass under an overpass while speeding, you will have your picture taken. In a week or two you will get your picture in the mail along with a bill for the fine.

i heard about this a while back, ths guy gets a letter in the mail from the police with a picture of him running a redlight or something and a ticket. Guy sends them a picture of a check. Police sent him another letter with a picture of the jail.

In our legal system you are innocent until proven guilty, so you shouldn't have to prove your innocence.
You must be referring to the criminal court system. You must not have spent much time in traffic court. :badidea:

Don't know if there are data recorders in POV's (privately owned vehicles) but they are common in fleet and rental vehicles.

ALL GM vehicles contain a "black box". It is part of the airbag SDM module. They are located here on our trucks :Chevrolet Silverado -Under LF seat, GMC Sierra -Under LF seat .

Check out this web site for more info: http://www.airbagcrash.com/pages/1/index.htm

Thanks for that link, SnD. I read it and still couldn't determine if removal stops airbag deployment. Their nomenclature always mentions airbag, so has me wondering. Anyone know?

The box you're all refering to is mounted in the bottom of the drivers seat. It does record data similar to an aviation black box. If you remove it it will disable your SRS.

The box you're all refering to is mounted in the bottom of the drivers seat. It does record data similar to an aviation black box. If you remove it it will disable your SRS.
Whats SRS?

Supplemental Restraint Systems - Air Bags.

Supplemental Restraint System..............ie. Airbag


Dagnabit Max...you are FAST!!!

Tom

After reading the link posted, that's what I thought. So I guess we live with a spy aboard unless we want to give up genuine safety for our occupants.

What a deal!

I guess you could figure out where it is and if ever in a wreck that you are at fault for, take it out quickly and destroy it. Course, you'd prolly go to jail for doing that in some states......

crap are you serious? So does it record our mod work too?

How long before they record the last X seconds/minutes of voice inside the cab like an airline blackbox does? I could just see it now...

TW

I recently read that the majority of 04 and later vehicles have black boxes...You guys are so paranoid, I guess you never considered that the cell phone on your hip has a GPS in it...):h

Paranoid? Hardly.

There is quite a bit of pending state legislation on EDR's. Depending on the political winds of the state involved, the legislation ranges from clarifying that the owner of the vehicle also owns the data in the EDR to some draconian measures mandating EDR's be in all vehicles by 2006.

For a synopsis of pending legislation, go to http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr7.htm

I've come to believe that if you have Onstar they can "see" information about your vehicle on their computers, even if you don't subscribe. I got a "48000 mile service reminder" from my dealer about 300 miles before I reached 48000, and I hadn't been in there for service in 3 months. Makes you wonder how they knew, now doesn't it?

Things that make you go "Hmmm......"

Tom :rolleyes:

That is the reason I specifically looked for a truck without Onstar. Black boxes don't worry me in the least, but GM knowing everywhere I drive my truck is a little much. Wouldn't be surprised if eventually (if not already) that information will be being sold to marketing firms. Sort of like internet cookies...

... data in the EDR to some draconian measures...:blahblah:

...and since you are on the publicly shared Internet, we also know about those Ford Truck web sites you've been visiting.):h
Give the Big Brother paranoia a break. You'll likely be the first one to complain if a technician can't retrieve vehicle history to find out why the engine hiccups when you go over a certain speed in the rain with the cruise on in 4th gear on Tuesdays.
Ed

Ed, I have a huge problem with your playing with the quote feature. About the mildest I can put it is that you are intellectually dishonest. The worst I won't say.

Since you can't change my orginal post, only my words in the quote feature, I urge members to go back and find where I posted the words in your post so they can make their own judgement of your character.

You're antics are lower than GM's, Ed.

And BTW, I trust you know where you can insert your little blah, blah, blah emoticon-- no lubricant needed.

...looks like you said it to me, dmaxer...

What's up with that?

Other than that I'm a disinterested party.

Yes its in your truck. Look under the front seat.

...looks like you said it to me, dmaxer...

What's up with that?

Other than that I'm a disinterested party.
Is your name Ed????

Nope...

But, I as a member, at your urging BTW, went and found where you posted the words in question. At least that is what I suppose...

Now I answered your question. So how about it, dmaxer?

the box is linked to the air bag and will screw up deploy if removed. they got us. i had problems with my injectors, took it in and the mechanic told me how fast i was going when the code was set and that i applied the brakes right after that. threw me for a loop. couldnt tell that i had a bully dog though.

GUYS, LISTEN UP!!!!!
i live in the metro detroit area, and there was a bad accident the other day, and a mother and her 2 children died. that is terrilble, and i pray for their family, BUT THE STUFF WE ARE INTERESTED IN IS A TIDBIT IN THE DETROIT FREE PRESS , THURSDAY, MAY 5 FRONT PAGE, AND CONTINUED ON 10A-ARTICLE( www.freep.com (http://www.freep.com) ) -PAGE 10A- AND I QOUTE " DWYER (POLICE CHIEF) SAID POLICE OBTAINED A WARRANT WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON FOR THE CONTENTS OF THE BLACK BOX IN THE DENALI, WHICH SHOULD SHOW HOW FAST THE SUV WAS GOING." scary stuff. it's true, and big brother really is watching, so don't speed, or fart. and i would be pretty sure that if they can tell how fast you were going, and if, and when you hit the brakes, they could tell if you have any mods on the truck. the technology is there, and it would " benefit " the carmakers to " know " what went wrong with the vehicle, and what the settings were when it went wrong. vehicles now have computers in them as powerful as desktops 8 years ago, and think what those could do. well just some venting, and if anyone hears of any laws being voted on concerning this keep us,me posted

Nooner, Here is a link to pending state legislation regarding EDR's.

http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr7.htm

you can bet your butt, that after a few years of flying under the radar, they will use the recorder for nearly any answer they're looking for, and not just accident surveys

I ALSO recomend that anyone interested visit the website, http://www.harristechnical.com (http://www.harristechnical.com/) particularly the EDR Case Law page. You will find that in some cases the data was used to strengthen a case AGAINST an auto manufacturer, or help to defent the innocent party in an accident, and in most cases was used to CONVICT A MURDERER!!! "...a criminal case with one count of reckless homicide. The EDR indicated the defendant was traveling at 98 mph with 100% throttle. The police speed estimate was 82 to 96 mph at impact with another vehicle. The jury returned a guilty verdict."

the box is linked to the air bag and will screw up deploy if removed. they got us. i had problems with my injectors, took it in and the mechanic told me how fast i was going when the code was set and that i applied the brakes right after that. threw me for a loop. couldnt tell that i had a bully dog though.The powertrain control module stores that info, and alot more(but no Bully-dog-sensor). It will tell me how many times the injectors failed, how many miles since the first fail, how many since the last fail, what gear it was in, whether it was warmed-up, if the brake was on, and how much fuel is in the tank...
You can't get away from technology and still enjoy the beautiful features of a fast, fuel efficient, safe new truck. Move-on...

I guess I also don't understand all the paranoia over people knowing the condition of the truck (speed, braking, etc.) at the time of the accident. If you were speeding and that was a factor in the accident, then you should go to jail for manslaughter. I am sorry if that offends anybody, but if you were braking the law and hit me, I sure as heck would want the police to be able to prove you were braking the law. As I stated before, there is an extremely simple remedy to all this-DON'T BREAK THE LAW. If you are going the speed limit at the time of the accident, you have nothing to worry about-period.

Sure I drive faster than the speed limit at times. But I only do so when I feel it is safe to do so and doesn't generally increase the risk of an accident. If I were to be in an accident and my excessive speed played a role, I would be a man about it and admit it. Sure it would suck, but you play, you pay-at least that is the way I was raised.

Beyond the black box, pure physics can often determine speeds at the time of a serious accident. With a tape measure and a calculator accident investigators can usually accurately figure out the speed you were going. The black box just makes it unnecessary to go to all that trouble.

Sure I drive faster than the speed limit at times. But I only do so when I feel it is safe to do so and doesn't generally increase the risk of an accident."Guilty!" as your Black Box has indicated... Your $125.00 ticket is in the mail... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/hihi.gif

I think that's the point some are trying to make. We all "break" the law every once in a while, but don't need "Big Brother" collecting a revenue everytime your speedometer goes over the speed limit!

In Baltimore Maryland, They have "Red Light Cameras" that snap your picture if you run it. Well, After it was discovered that some intersections didn't have a red light running problem, they (the company that installed the cameras), turned down the time that the yellow light stayed yellow. State law later dictated that minimum yellow light time was 4 seconds. All tickets mailed to individuals with time stamps less than 4 seconds were thrown out (if you went to court to fight it!). Some intersections took more than a couple of seconds to clear when the light turned yellow. Don't take my word for it, do a Google search on Baltimore Red Light Cameras and read... It wasn't an issue of safety with a couple of the intersections, it was an issue of revenue generation... For those who have seen the movie "Demolition Man", we seem to be headed in that direction. Everytime you do something wrong, a fine spits out at you for you to pay.

A few years from now, you will receive tickets in the mail for seemingly innocent things, because the local jurisdictions want that revenue!

"Guilty!" as your Black Box has indicated... Your $125.00 ticket is in the mail... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/hihi.gif

If it came to that I would slow down. Saving a few minutes isn't that important to me.

I didn't see the point of this thread being about revenue generation, rather I saw it as guilt avoidance in case of an accident. The redlight issue is silly. Turning the yellow time down is a clear case of entrapment and rightfully so sounds like it got thrown out by the courts. But once the 4-second delay is mandated, then there are no more valid excuses. If you want to risk the ticket, go ahead and go through. It is all about risk/reward ratios. If the risk of the ticket is worth the reward of getting through the light, so be it.

Of course you can come up with examples of times that slamming on the brakes would be worse than running the light. There are always exceptions, but in those rare instances I guess people are just going to have to bite the bullet and pay the fine. Usually in those instances other unsafe procedures lead you to the point of running the light, but that is a different argument.

Sorry for going off on that tangent in this thread. The black box would be a good tool in determining cause in an accident if it ends there. Problem is, it won't end there. That's all I was trying to point out.

Just got this e-mail today.
Black Boxes Installed in 4X4's
>
>
>The National Transportation Safety Board recently divulged they had
>covertly funded a project with the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region></st1:place> auto makers for the past five
>years,whereby the auto makers were installing black boxes in four-wheel
>drive pickup trucks in an effort to determine, in fatal accidents, the
>circumstances in the last 15 seconds before the crash.
>
>They were surprised to find in 44 of the 50 states the last words of
>drivers in 61.2 percent of fatal crashes were, "OH SH**!"
>
>Only the states of <st1:state w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:state>, <st1:state w:st="on">Tennessee</st1:state>, <st1:state w:st="on">Louisiana</st1:state>, <st1:state w:st="on">Mississippi</st1:state>, <st1:state w:st="on">Alabama</st1:state> and
><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Texas</st1:state></st1:place> were different, where 89.3 percent of the final words were: "Hold my
>beer and watch this"

:lol::lol:

Sorry for going off on that tangent in this thread. The black box would be a good tool in determining cause in an accident if it ends there. Problem is, it won't end there. That's all I was trying to point out.
You might be right, but I am not quite ready to put on my tin foil hat just yet. I don't like Onstar because I don't want to have to deal with the focused marketing aspect I think will come of it. But I think you have a point that it would make a convenient avenue for them to upload the "real time" data for law enforcement purposes.

This is something every free society has to seriously question. Does living in a "free" country necessarily mean you are free to break the law? Do you think it is a God-given right to drive over the speed limit? If it were determined that if everyone exactly followed the speed limit all the time, fatal accidents would be reduced by 50%, do you think it would be worth it to enforce the speed limit by utilization of speed-monitoring devices?

At the end of the day, the law is the law. If I break it, no matter how silly it may seem, I deserve to get the ticket. If it is by a highway patrolman with a radar gun, or a few silicon chips under my seat-the result is the same. I got caught breaking the law and must face the penalty.

Nooner,

Have been reading the Freep about that acccident....talk about heinous!!!!! That guy had a .43 B/A level!?! :eek: How the hell was he still conscious, let alone driving?

Anyway, after reading the data from the "black box", they found that he was traveling approx 70 mph in the 40 zone, and never touched the brakes! :mad: That family never had a chance.

They charged him with 3 counts of 2nd degree murder today....

Tom :pig:

i didn't read the paper today, but i asked the same ? on his ability to even blink, my point on the box is that, in cases not so obvious, that the box does not deduct reasoning in it's story, and only states the facts. what if you had an medical emergency, and lost control, but the box just shows you floored it and swerved into traffic, and if you had a beer after work, the info from the box would indicate to a jury that the alcohol probably caused this. you go to jail. as far as physics telling the story, up here we have a little thing called snow, and there are no skid marks, and you speed up when you loose it do to less friction. the law is that you should slow down in these conditions, BUT there is no set speed limit!!! it's up to them to determine how fast is "too fast for conditions" and i don't want to give them any help. i know i can safely drive faster than a 80 year old in these conditions, while still going under the posted speed limit, but if they decide that 35 in a 45 is good, and i was going 38, according to my black box, and i hurt someone, i at least want a chance to defend myself

i also was suprised when my wifes suv with onstar recieved a letter regarding service that was suspiciously close to the milage, and we have NEVER taken it to a dealer for repair, only the oil shops, and differant ones at that.(lease) so if they can tell how many miles you have, how fast, brakes or not, engine temp, trans shift points, that they just MIGHT be able to see if the proper service has been done- but no way would they be able to tell if you have mods, i mean there must be a logical reason why the engine suddenly lost 150 hp before it was brought in for service, and why they computer has been re-flashed 5 times, but never with a gm computer sig- i would say that the mechanics are busy, and just aren't looking, or don't care, and want to go home, but if it was a big issue, or a nosy tech, they will see it. like someone else wrote in this thread, if you want to play, then prepare to pay

Habanero, You must not have a son to lecture. Please. We're all grown men and don't need advice unless it's asked for.

I see this as a privacy and constitutional rights issue. GM has no right to install spy equipment in vehicles without owner's knowledge and consent. I just can't see any benefit to consumers or safety. GM is just trying to cover it's butt on product liabilty and passing the expense and hassle to their customers.

The Fifth Amendment also provides that no person is required to testify against themselves. This might be a stretch to some since law enforcement nowadays is routinely seizing folks' personal computers and using the info against them, but I see the info in the EDR as my property and it should not be available to anyone unless I choose to make it so.

Ask Trippin where the fuses are.............no fuse no contact.........

I pulled mine out of my 2003 Tahoe..............:D

Put it back in the day I sold the truck...........

Spy on me ............. I don't think so............:exactly:

UM..it is there truck.. GM that is and we buy there truck as is.. we know there are data recorders in the SRS so.. whats the problem? ONSTAR tracks your trucks EVERY move the direction destination where you go what you do who you talk too.. at least you don have to give your papers at a check point at the county line:eek:

Today, in the NEWSDAY, A long island newspaper, 2 men were sentanced to 3 years prison for the fatal accident in MuttonTown Long Island. In court, the black boxes were introduced as evidence, and the BB recorded the 2002 corvette was traveling 139mph 5 seconds before the crash, in a 55mph zone. I dont know why they stated 5 seconds before, was it because they slowed down or that was the last recorded speed, but the corvette was racing a 2002 mercedes. The driver of the vette was 17 an the mercedes driver was 19.
Two people were killed in the jeep that both vehicles hit.

There you have it. The black box busted this guy. Just like DNA evidence, it's 100% accurate. That's why there are 150 cases where people have been convicted by DNA evidence are currently under review in Virginia after it was determined that a man was falsely convicted with DNA evidence.

Accident investigation has evolved into a science and investigators are quite capable of re-constructing accidents without vehicle owners testifying (maybe falsely) against themselves.

If that guy in the Corvette was doing 140 when he hit those poor people, investigators certainly won't need the EDR to determine his culpability.

Anyway, my original post was to see if the body of knowledge here contained a work-around EDR while maintaining airbags and I guess it doesn't exist.

GM better not be listening to me when I am in my truck. GM says the only time Onstar can actually hear a convo in the vehicle is when the Onstar button is pressed.

"Sure I drive faster than the speed limit at times. But I only do so when I feel it is safe to do so and doesn't generally increase the risk of an accident."

See the problem is the court system could give a rats a$$ about what "you" thought about safe speeding. Get it straight, I agree if you follow the laws you shouldn't worry, but what about the laws that are established to generate money, or are unreasonable. I'd love to see your face in the court room trying to justify driving above the speed limit and after having some sort of unforseeable accident, trying to dispute the fact that you were driving safely. The problem lies in the fact that a black box only gives one side of the story, as does a red light camera. You can in fact drive safely above 55, but try telling that to the judge.

GM better not be listening to me when I am in my truck. GM says the only time Onstar can actually hear a convo in the vehicle is when the Onstar button is pressed.Yeah maybe GM can't but federal agents most certainly can. If you don't believe there are innocent people in jail then you go right on broadcasting your private conversations.